Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: showdown on March 22, 2010, 15:42:59 PM
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Hi guys,
In my attempt to grow as a poker player I guess it"s to welcome advice or criticism regarding my play. I was unlucky enough to be the first exit in Swansea in the amateur event and although steaming at how unlucky I felt at the time retrospectively I wonder If I could have gotten myself out of the hand on the river. I"ll reply the hand below as best I can and welcome any comments....
Level 2 - 100/50
I"m on the button with AJ suited.
A guy (I think David LLewelyn) who has only just joined the table after missing the first level raises to 300 from UTG+3. There are two other callers and so I come along for the ride.
The flop is K 10 4 rainbow. All players check around to me so I complete and take the free card.
Turn is a rainbow Q to give me the nuts.
Original raiser puts in 600, player 2 folds, player 3 calls the 600 and I make a raise to 1600. Original raise then puts in an additional 1000 on top of my 1600. Player 3 folds and I make it look like a tough decision and call to take it to the river. The pot at this stage is 7150.
Question 1: Should I have taken down the pot on the turn? My thoughts on the turn were he possibly had AQ and with everyone checking the flop expected it to be good. His min raise back to me however definitely had me confused.
The river is another 10. The board reads K 10 4 Q 10
Prior to the river I had every intention of letting him hang himself but I didn"t obviously like the 10.
He makes an insta-bet of 7000 when the 10 hits. I"m sitting with 6700 behind me.
My thoughts (and this is where I hope to learn some things from you guys):
1. What does the min-raise on the turn suggest on a drawing board?
2. Should I be more in favour of doubling up early or consolodating with my remaining 6700?
3. Having no read as he"s just joined the table should I take the passive approach and fold?
4. For whatever reason I didn"t put him on KK or QQ so I felt my only danger hands were 44, Q10, K10.
Obviously I called and he showed K10.
I think his pot bet on the river was the nail in my coffin as I felt a full-house in that spot would have value bet about 3k. Hat"s off to him for having my brain in knots.
Apologies for the essay and all and any comments are welcome. If I played it badly I would prefer to know and learn. Thanks.
Leigh
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Well i think you are unlucky with the board pairing on the river and without going into to much detail,,once he raises on the turn,,i personally would be looking to take it down there and then,,he obviously wasnt scared of top pair,,so he either has a set,,2 pair,,,poss str8,,,or at worse a str8 draw,,,,i think i would av banged all in and basically said its your tourney life to catch me up or overtake me !!! easy said from my comfy chair i know lol
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Why can"t poker decisions be easy!? :)
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I was sat to your left Leigh and watched that painful hand, I was believe it or not willing you not to call that river and I agree with Dave you should have popped the turn, but we all make mistakes yours was just unfortunately at the APAT main event. :(
Good luck at the next one........ :)
Ian
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checked multi-way and then he suddenly wakes up on the turn means he has a set usually, or same hand as you.
I suppose calling the small re raise on the flop is ok but i think i would have raised it bigger (say 2k) and then jammed over his reraise, because i usually have a fairly aggro image.
As played i think his hand is face up and is a fairly easy pass. I don"t think he is bluffing and he isn"t 3betting the flop with a bare ten.
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I"d have raised more on the turn. When it"s went 600,600 rather than a small raise I"m jamming it in. Don"t won"t someone with a set coming along in case the board pairs.
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Thing is when the river fell and I was ready to spring my trap and then he spoilt the party by putting me to the sword, I wasn"t sure whether I was talking myself into believing he had filled up and then of course I talked myself out of it, should have listened to the little guy who spoke first in my head!
When I think back now with a clear head, I ask myself what can he have on the turn that he wouldn"t bet for value on the river, either a total bluff or a monster. Guess the call was partly about glory rather than common sense.
Hopefully London I can fold the first 2 levels and avoid any first exit woes :)
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Jamming the turn every day of the week and thinking it"s a chop if he calls. Crying when he binks the river, but that"s poker.
As played, folding the river every day of the week. Not risking my tourney once the board pairs.
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i think u played the hand as u should if u just go allin every time a scare card comes u are never going to get any where u have nuts with no obvious re drw apart from board pairing ..... i think its obvious he has a set or 2 pair here u were just really unlucky on the river... not an easy fold there but i guess u sorta new he had f/h but made the call anyway , blinds still low 6k+ aint the end of the world fold and move on
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also think posting the result of the hand affects people"s replies, so bear that in mind.
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Mistake was made not reraising preflop.
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When he re pops your turn bet, then I would have been jamming. And then once he pushes on the river then it is a fairly easy lay down.
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Mistake was made not reraising preflop.
early doors with aj ...mmmmmm prob got 2 people on pairs or slow rolling aq ak dont think not a good idea here imo
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Fold AJ at any time from any position even if they are both green
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Mistake was made not reraising preflop.
early doors with aj ...mmmmmm prob got 2 people on pairs or slow rolling aq ak dont think not a good idea here imo
It doesn"t so much matter that you"re playing the bottom of your range, as you"re only showing your cards if you hit. The dead money, plus having position, plus not having to play 4-handed makes it a raise. Calling multiway with AJ is asking for this kind of result.
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peeling this hand OTB in this sort of tourney is fine imo
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peeling this hand OTB in this sort of tourney is fine imo
Snap.
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With a single opponent and having the nuts on the turn, is jamming on the turn here in the long run going to result in -EV? Yes the river was a bad card and cost me my tournament, retrospectively, it should have been an easy lay down, but in these spots where I cannot be re-drawn by a flush or a better straight, I would want to keep my player in the hand to extract the most value.
I personally think my play on the turn was OK but bad call on the river with the paired board.
Many thanks to those who have replied though, very insightful!
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the trouble with flatting the turn is that there are too many cards that will come on the river that will kill your action (rather than ones that outdraw you). That is why it is best to get them in on the turn for value
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to call AJs pre is ok otb when there 3 others in the pot , but what do we want to hit? personally unless i flop 2pair or better then i"m pretty wary with it for obv reasons.
Early on for implied odds otb here i"d play my suited aces , pairs and suited connectors and the 1 gappers obv , hands with good implied odds and are easy to get away from [eg if i dont flop well and the action gets jiggy then obv]..I"m not against [3bet] re-raising pre here , we have position and they have have as little info on u as u on them , the 2 callers will unlikely have big hands so with whats in the pot plus blinds then a re-raise to around 1500 will probably be pretty profitable..[not a very low variance option but is still a option imo to squeeze atc]
Folding pre is meh but i wouldnt criticise if u did ... as played . pretty much everyone has said 4bet rrai once he 3bets turn.
WTF he was putting u on to repop u there is lol imo and u shoulda punished him for it...River as played - take a deep breath , roll eyes upwards to the heavens and tell the poker gods exactly how u feel :) then fold :)
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i don"t mind flatting the turn and i agree with you. However your initial raise should be a tad bigger imo so that after his raise makes it easier to get stacks in on the turn, or if he flats your flop raise you can get more on a safe river
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With a single opponent and having the nuts on the turn, is jamming on the turn here in the long run going to result in -EV? Yes the river was a bad card and cost me my tournament, retrospectively, it should have been an easy lay down, but in these spots where I cannot be re-drawn by a flush or a better straight, I would want to keep my player in the hand to extract the most value.
I personally think my play on the turn was OK but bad call on the river with the paired board.
Many thanks to those who have replied though, very insightful!
wot i said then :-*
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in these spots where I cannot be re-drawn by a flush or a better straight, I would want to keep my player in the hand to extract the most value.
I personally think my play on the turn was OK but bad call on the river with the paired board.
Many thanks to those who have replied though, very insightful!
flatting the turn would be ok if only 1 opponent maybe with reads but you had 2 players showing interest on the turn , the orignal raiser has just led into 3 others with position on himself so personally i would weigh his range more towards sets and 2 pairs [maybe AJ same as u] his action fits QQ [king flop , F##K check , turn yippee i hit my set] or QT or 44 , the callers range is a tad wider so i cannot see any merit to calling turn...
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i was trying to think how re-raising the turn could be put from thought to words/writing.When we have the nuts,you can get away with fast playing on the turn imho we should not ever mind narrowing our opponents range to only his strongest holdings because we can beat those hands and they can pay us off big.If the pot represents a good percentage of our stack it is worth the risk of protecting aggressively even if villains hands have only 15to25% equity.The problem i try to work on within my own game is knowing when to take my hand to showdown against a range that i can profit from when i have less strong hands eg top pair/over pair hands versus possible draws in villains ranges..The problem for me is knowing when to play medium strength hands flop onwards in such a way that i keep in villains hands weaker than mine but by not showing to much strength as to i only get action from stronger ones and fold out all weaker or get bluffed off the better hand etc etc by getting bet at so big i find it difficult to call.
meh just some random thoughts that met get u thinking , this thread got me thinking [good i suspose?] :)
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@Noble1 - Thanks for the detailed comments, there was a lot to think about there. With regards the turn and the other opponents, the villain had raised from first position and player 2 had folded when it got to me, so it was do I keep him around by flatting or go for the shove. I must admit I did consider both at the time, and looking back and considering everyone"s opinion, I would have made the raise bigger on the turn and given the stacks remaining and the pot probably got all the chips in there and then, then *bleeped* the river and gone straight to the bar.
I guess the big learning point for me here is I think I saw the jackpot before weighing all the options. I wrote off QQ in my initial thinking on the day, but you"re probably right, he did fit his move, of checking the flop then waking up on the turn. So the board pairing on the river should have been a giant neon sign with "DANGER DANGER" written on it.
I think perhaps I was destined to lose this one. Even when he had K10 for 2 pair would he have laid down to a shove on the turn? Maybe, but who knows.....
Once again thanks for everyone"s comments
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just to clarify, when i say flat the turn i don"t mean flatting the original 600 bet i mean flatting the 3bet to 2600.
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I think perhaps I was destined to lose this one. Even when he had K10 for 2 pair would he have laid down to a shove on the turn? Maybe, but who knows....
I know he would"ve folded if you 3bet preflop. ;)
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I know he would"ve folded if you 3bet preflop. ;)
I think I should have been in the toilet and saved myself any kind of decision....
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We had mountains of discussions about hands like this over the weekend. But when that 2nd 10 hits and he jams it all-in, if you ask yourself the question "What am I beating?" then think you are behind yet STILL CALL, then that is the worse play ever.......though we have all made it !
The best part of live poker is that you have the time to make these tough decisions and think them through and you dont get that online. Try to go back over the hand in your head and when you put him on a hand, ask yourself if you wouldve played that hand the way he did. If the story he is telling doesn"t seem to add up, then you should call.
You did play this badly though. His bet of 600, which gets one call and then when you raise to 1600 and HE then goes to 2600, it screams either a set or 2 pair (BOTH of which you are ahead of) or at worst, he has the same hand as you.
Therefore, you get all your chips in like s..t off a shovel !
The fact that he hits on the river is irrelevant to your play in pushing. If you play a hand correctly and lose, then you can"t beat yourself up about it. On this occasion though you played it poorly IMO as you shouldve shoved on the turn and passed on the river.
By the way.......if you are playing against Steve Bayliff or Dan Owston, IGNORE EVERYTHING I JUST SAID !!
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Some interesting posts here so for one of my first posts on this forum i thought i"d chip in.
Leigh, you didnt know him or the way in which he plays so all you had left was the strength of your hand.
When the Q comes on the turn you have the nuts and cannot be beaten so i think the best play available to you here is, as many have already said, to shove when re-raised. Regardless of what happens after this you can say " i made the right decision".
Now in retrospect when you have played until the river you have to ask yourself a couple of questions, What is my opponents style of play and my tournament life is on the line and lastly, he raised on the turn with what that would cause him to put his tournament life on the line. He surely knew you were very strong as he asked the question on the turn, so therefore probably already knew he would get paid off.
The reason i think you posted here is because of that age old question we have all asked ourselves many times before "How did i get myself into this situation again"
Chalk it up to experience and a teaspoon-full of bad luck.
Bring on London where i hope to meet you all for the first time.
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By the way.......if you are playing against Steve Bayliff or Dan Owston, IGNORE EVERYTHING I JUST SAID !!
LOL - if it"s scouse he"s either got the nuts or 7-2 off!
Regarding the hand, i"m shoving on the turn. If he wants to come along then good, that"s what you want, the fact he then gets lucky is irrelevant, you"ve got him to make a mistake by calling and you"re a massive favourite.
The call on the river is insane. At the very best it"s a split, at the worst you"re out. You"ve still got nearly 70 big blinds. Fold and move on.
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lol wot do u no .....
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Don`t worry too much about it because i`m quite sure i was first out with my very silly re raise bluff (with the thinking oh well if he calls i can always watch the rugby)and with my opponent hitting the nuts on the flop..can you confirm this you lovely apat bigwigs... ;D
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Don`t worry too much about it because i`m quite sure i was first out with my very silly re raise bluff (with the thinking oh well if he calls i can always watch the rugby)and with my opponent hitting the nuts on the flop..can you confirm this you lovely apat bigwigs... ;D
I think Leigh was first out but we were just more reserved at our table and forgot to applaud just as they applauded on your table :-\
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damn ....couldn`t even manage 1st out..nevermind must try harder lol... :"(
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So to summarise the thread, I play bad :)
Just remember guys if I"m shoving the turn to a 3-bet, I"ve got the nuts....
damn ....couldn`t even manage 1st out..nevermind must try harder lol... :"(
I"m happy to exchange my last place with you if it makes you happy?
Starting to think my 11th at Bolton was a fluke :P
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I would probably fold pre but don"t mind the call at all.
Think the raise size on the turn is perfect.
On the river, particularly in an APAT tourney you beat nothing. Just fold.
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Leigh, it takes many tournaments before we realise that it is not about being good or bad at poker, it is about playing our best and praying hard to the poker gods for some luck.
I expect to win every tournament but the reality is i maybe cash in 20% of all the tournaments i play, leaving me 80% dissapointed.
Maybe London will be good for you, i know for certain that i am going to win it because i always beleive in myself. I imagine that leaves all the others left in after i bow out able to laugh at me for being so brazen or big headed about my abilities, on the other hand, if a miracle does happen i can say "i told you so" ...lol
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Gotta love Pants-Man"s note at the end......"Friend of Tony Trippier - Bronze Medal in the Stud !"
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Leigh - wrote a long response but lost it when I had just finished. In a nutshell, my thinking is a lot closer to yours.
Shoving over the 600 is way too conservative. The majority say to shove over his reraise. Some want to do this to make him fold, a few for value in the hope he"ll call. Then there are several that tell you to shove his reraise but don"t say what their objective is - do they want him to call or fold? I think most want him to fold but who knows*. But why would we want him to fold? We are a huge favourite going to the River - >3:1 if he has a set and >9:1 if he has 2P. If we won"t take chances when we are such big favourites, when will we?
I definitely don"t want everyone to fold, but neither do I want them getting to the River cheaply and having the option to put chips in depending on whether they hit. Against two, I"m raising the 600 to about 2600 in the hope of getting one caller. A reraise from him is better, as we can then shove with a realistic hope of being called. If we can get him to call a shove we maximise our advantage, avoid the possibility of being bluffed off a paired board he has missed and accept the small risk of being outdrawn.
I understand what you were trying to do and don"t really disagree with it but he probably won"t pay us off much if he misses the River, so I would try to get as many of his chips as I could into the pot on the Turn, all of them if possible.
*It should be a condition when suggesting an action that you give a reason and state what response you want from your opponent.
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Gotta love Pants-Man"s note at the end......"Friend of Tony Trippier - Bronze Medal in the Stud !"
Can"t compete with MintTrav"s - 5th place - Portsmouth Snooker Club £10 rebuy. ;D
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John,
I had a think about what you have written and want to clarify my opinion.
When Leigh was re-raised surely he would put his opponent on some sort of hand, probably fairly strong, as he has no previous knowledge of how this player plays and currently has the nuts then he would want maximum value with minimum risk. If the range he put his opponent on was pockets making a set or 2 pair then he would anticipate the likelyness of a call to his shove which would get him maximum value if called but minimize the risk of his opponent catching a lucky card because his opponent now has to fold or gamble.
Dont ya just love poker!
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but in these spots where I cannot be re-drawn by a flush or a better straight, I would want to keep my player in the hand to extract the most value.
I personally think my play on the turn was OK but bad call on the river with the paired board.
The majority say to shove over his reraise. Some want to do this to make him fold, a few for value in the hope he"ll call. Then there are several that tell you to shove his reraise but don"t say what their objective is - do they want him to call or fold? I think most want him to fold but who knows*. But why would we want him to fold? We are a huge favourite going to the River - >3:1 if he has a set and >9:1 if he has 2P. If we won"t take chances when we are such big favourites, when will we?
Against two, I"m raising the 600 to about 2600 in the hope of getting one caller. A reraise from him is better, as we can then shove with a realistic hope of being called.
In agreement with the reraise size as we then give villain1 [orignal raiser 2.5/1 ish] plus if called it sets up the pot size to get all our chips in.. [sets are 3.5to1 2pairs are 10.1to1 approx]
As played by showdown his reraise gives villains around 4to1 , not quite big enough to give sets incorrect odds but all other hands in villains ranges are drawing thin and mostly given the stack to blinds size , players tend to speculate or see what you are going to do on the next street lol lol [when the players in the pot have a lot of chips compared to the blinds and because they still have a lot of money behind they take fliers etc fold equity has less impact 75bb+ oooo i"ve got chips i can afford it :)]
The sizing of turn bet is not only about getting calls but you would like to threaten as much of your opponent's stack as possible [leverage] on later streets..This helps when u bluff also [think about it] , so it helps bluffs and helps get big hands paid off when u have the goods..Sizing your bets in such way that they carry threat on villains entire stack if he continues is a good weapon in your arsenal to get good at...
As played by showdown the interesting part of the action that caught my eye was that his small reraise was perfect to try to induce a raise from the opponent but we should do this imho in order to build a larger pot so that when they 3bet brain fart we 4bet punish [never to flat] the pot size after villains 3bet is a good % of showdowns stack and it is more than worth to 4bet all in and not be overly concerned if villain folds imho..
fraac mentioned it in the thread earlier about 3betting pre which is a good option imo , why? , because we have the button thats why..When playing deep ish even at 100bbs the button is gold and should be defended by calling raises or reraising them, we come accustomed to defending our blinds when stacks become shallow but when deeper the button should be defended , discourage players on your right from stealing position imho...
meh thats where my opinion is at anyhows...