Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: LongshanksED on April 19, 2010, 17:18:51 PM
-
1st hand if a pub league reginal final. 10 handed I know and I only know one person at the table. Starting stack of 7000 and blinds are 25/50
I"m on the button and a stranger opens for 550 in the hi jack. 1st hand for 11x bb
I look down at JJ
What to do?
-
Fold.
you might be ahead, or you might not.... but you simply can"t flat call here, and raising commits you to the hand. no need to play a massive hand for your tourney life this early with a marginal pair. Save your chips until you find a spot where you can exploit your edge.
-
Ask him if he ment to do this donk raise. Humilate him a little bit, then ask him if he wants to play heads up cash..... :)
Then fold.
-
just jam and if you lose go to the bar
-
I think fold pre here, but definitely ask about the raise. There is a chance this was a live "misclick"
I have to say, as its a pub freeroll, I"d be tempted to shove them in.
-
Shove shove shove for me - If he folds then there is just a massive amount of money to pick up for free, i think he calls with some worse hands (as Im assuming the quality is grim), ur racing with a lot of his stereotypical 11x opening raise. If bust, ur in the right place.
-
I did fold
Have about a Years experience o these pub players now and it seems once their married to a hand they don"t give up
my thoughts were, I may be ahead but if an over card comes then it"s a tough predicament, is he overly aggressive with a small pair and he shoves the flop when he hit a set. Also what bet size am I facing on the turn?
I decided it wasn"t worth getting into tough predicaments without playing with the villians for a while yet
-
I did fold
Have about a Years experience o these pub players now and it seems once their married to a hand they don"t give up
my thoughts were, I may be ahead but if an over card comes then it"s a tough predicament, is he overly aggressive with a small pair and he shoves the flop when he hit a set. Also what bet size am I facing on the turn?
I decided it wasn"t worth getting into tough predicaments without playing with the villians for a while yet
Once they are married to a hand they don;t give up = shove
I may be ahead but if an over card comes then it"s a tough predicament = shove
is he overly aggressive with a small pair = shove
All of the above points you use as an argument for folding, but I think ur reasoning is a bit off. If all the above is true then Im pretty sure you shud be getting ur £ in.
I think it goes shove>3/b small>fold>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call
-
too many nits ITT, what hands do you think he opens 11x with
-
Make it 2000 - 2500 > Shove > Call > Stab yourself in the eye > Fold
-
I did fold
Have about a Years experience o these pub players now and it seems once their married to a hand they don"t give up
my thoughts were, I may be ahead but if an over card comes then it"s a tough predicament, is he overly aggressive with a small pair and he shoves the flop when he hit a set. Also what bet size am I facing on the turn?
I decided it wasn"t worth getting into tough predicaments without playing with the villians for a while yet
Once they are married to a hand they don;t give up = shove
I may be ahead but if an over card comes then it"s a tough predicament = shove
is he overly aggressive with a small pair = shove
All of the above points you use as an argument for folding, but I think ur reasoning is a bit off. If all the above is true then Im pretty sure you shud be getting ur £ in.
I think it goes shove>3/b small>fold>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call
Make it 2000 - 2500 > Shove > Call > Stab yourself in the eye > Fold
Curious what range either of you assign to villain here and rationale for that range given no info on villains tendancies.
Also, payout and structure of tourney are important factors.
-
I did fold
Have about a Years experience o these pub players now and it seems once their married to a hand they don"t give up
my thoughts were, I may be ahead but if an over card comes then it"s a tough predicament, is he overly aggressive with a small pair and he shoves the flop when he hit a set. Also what bet size am I facing on the turn?
I decided it wasn"t worth getting into tough predicaments without playing with the villians for a while yet
Once they are married to a hand they don;t give up = shove
I may be ahead but if an over card comes then it"s a tough predicament = shove
is he overly aggressive with a small pair = shove
All of the above points you use as an argument for folding, but I think ur reasoning is a bit off. If all the above is true then Im pretty sure you shud be getting ur £ in.
I think it goes shove>3/b small>fold>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call
Make it 2000 - 2500 > Shove > Call > Stab yourself in the eye > Fold
Curious what range either of you assign to villain here and rationale for that range given no info on villains tendancies.
Also, payout and structure of tourney are important factors.
Well I doubt he"s making it 550 with AA / KK / QQ. I"d say his range is mostly small - mid pairs with lots of Ax hands. ie we crush his range.
I"m guessing this isn"t going to be a well structured tourney so we can"t go passing up spots like this which are obviously +EV
-
Well I doubt he"s making it 550 with AA / KK / QQ. I"d say his range is mostly small - mid pairs with lots of Ax hands. ie we crush his range.
I"m guessing this isn"t going to be a well structured tourney so we can"t go passing up spots like this which are obviously +EV
Intuitively, I would agree, but really, you can"t confidently nor totally rule them out either.
-
Well I doubt he"s making it 550 with AA / KK / QQ. I"d say his range is mostly small - mid pairs with lots of Ax hands. ie we crush his range.
I"m guessing this isn"t going to be a well structured tourney so we can"t go passing up spots like this which are obviously +EV
Intuitively, I would agree, but really, you can"t confidently nor totally rule them out either.
Defo can"t rule "em out in most pub games, where the standard is generally not great.
-
Id say his 11x opening range from h/j is 22+ A2+ K9+ Q9+ J10. Folding is way too nitty. I hate flatting as well!
We cnt rule out QQ+, But:
a) they seem less likely w/ 11x.
b) they are part of a range which we crush.
-
Well I doubt he"s making it 550 with AA / KK / QQ. I"d say his range is mostly small - mid pairs with lots of Ax hands. ie we crush his range.
I"m guessing this isn"t going to be a well structured tourney so we can"t go passing up spots like this which are obviously +EV
Intuitively, I would agree, but really, you can"t confidently nor totally rule them out either.
We can apply a miniscule weighting to it though.
-
Couldn"t put villain on a range at all being the first hand
but as the game progressed it came like this
2nd hand. Same villian again makes it 550. Everyone folds.
3rd hand. Villian again makes same 550 and this time gets 3 callers, one if them is Big blind. Q rag rag flop. BB checks. Villian overbets pot of 2.5k (approx 1.6k in pre). One caller folds. BB raises to 5k (leaving himself 1k). Villian puts him all in. BB had Q8 for top pair, villian had AA and doubles up!
About 2 hours in I"m down to 3000 (8bb approx at 200/400) and shove utg+1 with AJs
fold to same villan who"s in BB with approx 15k and he calls "because i had the chips to"
he called with 82o. Luckily my hand held. But it did make me regret folding the 1st hand
-
Yep ! Pub poker. ;)
-
I dont mind flatting here too much. Folding is too nitty here. Raising means we have to probably fold to a reshove by the villain which sucks. So I flat in position, and happily get my money in on flops not containing an ace or king.
I find alot of live donkeys will make these silly raises with hands they "dont want to see a flop with"
More often than not they flip over pairs 1010 downwards to about 66/77, and hands like AK/AQ. AA and KK is pretty unlikely here. Raising 11x in late position with a monster at the 25/50 level is pretty retarded.
-
Raising 11x in late position with a monster at the 25/50 level is pretty retarded.
I dont mind flatting here too much. Folding is too nitty here. Raising means we have to probably fold to a reshove by the villain which sucks. So I flat in position, and happily get my money in on flops not containing an ace or king.
Sorry but flat calling an 11xBB raise is more retarded than the original raise move imo.
-
^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-
I know what your saying. Calling an 11x raise is generally bad in most situations, but I"m looking atthe raise size as a % of my current stack. I think the stack size of the hero was 7000, so the raise still represents less than 10% of total stack size. Its only something I would potentially do at the 25/50 level. If its 50-100, and he raises 11x, I"m probably shoving all in over the top with a 7000 stack
-
I know what your saying. Calling an 11x raise is generally bad in most situations, but I"m looking atthe raise size as a % of my current stack. I think the stack size of the hero was 7000, so the raise still represents less than 10% of total stack size. Its only something I would potentially do at the 25/50 level. If its 50-100, and he raises 11x, I"m probably shoving all in over the top with a 7000 stack
stack size is irrelevant here - it"s the raise size in relation to the Big Blind that matters. You say you would call 11xBB at 25/50, but not at 50/100..... that doesn"t really make sense as the raise is exactly the same size in comparison the BB.
We should never ever ever ever be flatting such a big raise - with a monster we should be looking to raise more and bloat the pot with a view to getting all in, or with a marginal or rag hand, we either fold or raise to bluff. There is no good reason for flat calling - it doesn"t fit with a monster, a marginal hand, or rags.
-
I know what your saying. Calling an 11x raise is generally bad in most situations, but I"m looking atthe raise size as a % of my current stack. I think the stack size of the hero was 7000, so the raise still represents less than 10% of total stack size. Its only something I would potentially do at the 25/50 level. If its 50-100, and he raises 11x, I"m probably shoving all in over the top with a 7000 stack
so you are set mining then?
-
No I wouldnt be calling to set mine. I"d be calling with a view to raising any flop cbet on a decentish flop.
I understand the point of not flatting, however consider this example. If you"re playing in the WSOP/WSOPE main event where starting stacks are 30000 with blinds starting at 25/50. If an early pos raiser makes it - say 400-500. Another big 8-10x raise, and you look down at a pocket pair - say 55. Are you saying it would be incorrect to call? I understand its another overthetop raise here, but surely it isn"t a terrible mistake to set mine for rougly 1% of your stack?
I guess I"m thinking that your own stack size has to play a part in deciding whether to set mine or not, and not only the number of BBs the villain raises.
In this particular case I"m not calling to set mine, but I"m calling to raise any cbet on the right sort of flop and be happy to get my money in. So I"d be calling with a plan. what are the stats of an A or K flopping? 30% (noble correct me if I"m wrong). So 70% of flops I"ll be going with this plan and in the unlikely event he has AA/KK so be it
-
JJ, two ways to play these mate and there both wrong. Best case your in a race if you move all in over the top. You call and there"s bound to be an over card then you have another decision when the continuation bet comes. Dump the jacks. Brunson said once that folding is only a small mistake, pushing or calling could be a big one.
-
JJ, two ways to play these mate and there both wrong. Best case your in a race if you move all in over the top. You call and there"s bound to be an over card then you have another decision when the continuation bet comes. Dump the jacks. Brunson said once that folding is only a small mistake, pushing or calling could be a big one.
He was wrong.......
-
JJ, two ways to play these mate and there both wrong. Best case your in a race if you move all in over the top. You call and there"s bound to be an over card then you have another decision when the continuation bet comes. Dump the jacks. Brunson said once that folding is only a small mistake, pushing or calling could be a big one.
He was wrong.......
well he was right in the 1980s but things have moved on since then. Brunson probably hasn"t played in a pub league either.......
i prefer not to fold big hands to donks and i am usually right
-
JJ, two ways to play these mate and there both wrong. Best case your in a race if you move all in over the top. You call and there"s bound to be an over card then you have another decision when the continuation bet comes. Dump the jacks. Brunson said once that folding is only a small mistake, pushing or calling could be a big one.
He was wrong.......
Marty, you come across as very sure of yourself. Dont get me wrong this is a good attitude to have in poker, recently i could do with a pinch of "sure of myself".
With regard to Doyle Brunson, I agree that folding the best hand in situations is a small mistake relative to pushing or calling when behind. Also Doyle hasnt been too far wrong for me at any stage of his career. Doyle isnt the sort of player that wasnt able to adapt his game over the 50 odd years hes been winning. 10 bracelets, millions in career earnings is a testiment to how "right" he has been.
Your comment seemed quite dismissive of this great player.
-
Getting back to the original question.
It really depends on your perspective, feel and gut instinct. If you feel the game is gonna be tough to win and therefore fancy an early gamble a push is fine, to pick up dead money or race with overcards. Alternatively, a fold is ok if you feel you have an edge in the game and can outplay your opponents. There is no absolute correct way to play this situation, and i wouldnt always play it the same way. There is a danger when thinking about situations in absolute terms ie. "I will always do this in this situation", that you become predictable and exploitable.
-
I actually do think that folding is a bad mistake. When Doyle was talking abou folding jacks, he meant in deep, slow mtts with a good structure. As u said col, then u can fold if u think u have q big advantage on the table. The fact that this is a pub league makes a HUGE difference. People underestimate how much structure can alter decisions. Most pub leagues have 15/20min blinds and r missing a lot of levels. In that spot, giving up chances like this is massively -EV.
-
Marty, I totally see where you are coming from. Im just not a fan of shoving in the first level against bad players with a very vulnerable hand. To be honest im probably not going to play this situation very well. I hate throwing away JJ without seeing a flop, and agree a flat call is weak. I might test the strength of my opponents hand with a reraise, or possibly opt for a "weak" call, put id rarely shove in this spot. But what the hell this is a pub league final, the bar is open and a cash table is starting, all right then shove, shove, shove lol.
-
I hate throwing away JJ without seeing a flop, and agree a flat call is weak.
Colin - the attached vid gives a good overview of how to play JJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA&playnext_from=TL&videos=s8OKtzUGlwk
-
I hate throwing away JJ without seeing a flop, and agree a flat call is weak.
Colin - the attached vid gives a good overview of how to play JJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA&playnext_from=TL&videos=s8OKtzUGlwk
LOL Some pretty awful JJ play here, together with some bad luck. Opening with a flat call, holding JJ is just wrong. Steve I missed what you reraised with last night, when you were called with A3.
-
Steve I missed what you reraised with last night, when you were called with A3.
My cards were irrelevant - was playing the player and the situation, and not my cards. Didn"t think he was strong (correct) and didn"t think he would call (wrong).
-
Steve I missed what you reraised with last night, when you were called with A3.
My cards were irrelevant - was playing the player and the situation, and not my cards. Didn"t think he was strong (correct) and didn"t think he would call (wrong).
Not JJ then? ;)
-
My cards were irrelevant
Nothing changes.