Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: BOINGBLITZ on May 16, 2010, 11:27:33 AM
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Firstly, I hope that "all " you APAT"ers currently stuck out in Austria get back safely and as quickly as possible. Must be a real bummer to have the worry of how and when you are going to get home hanging over a weekend away like that and, having spent a night sleeping outside on a German car-park surounded by 300 police in Stuttgart at the last World Cup, I KNOW how you feel (but that"s another story !)
The purpose of this post is that I was wondering if it is just me who thinks that these European events are detracting from the APAT "family" feel ?
IMO, this isn"t an APAT event at all. It is a poker tourney taking place in Vienna that has EIGHT (correct me if I am wrong) APAT regulars taking part. There were probably more APAT players than that in the UKIPT this weekend. Maybe that was an APAT event too ?
For most of us, getting away for a weekend when you have a family can be difficult, but we can do it for events that don"t cost the Earth. This trip however would have cost the best part of £350-£400 before a card had been dealt or a 9-euro bottle of beer been purchased. How can you justify that for a £75 tournament ? You would have to make the Final Table to break even.
Do we not have enough casino"s in the UK to cater for all of these events ?
We have no tourney in Walsall or Birmingham this season for whatever reason, yet a tourney here this weekend would have surely have got more than 8 (?) regular APAT"ers ?
I understand the thought that APAT want to reach out to Europe but do you really think that many (any ?) of the local players will ever take part in another APAT event ?....will they be inspired to fly to Aberdeen next month ?
Personally, I think not.
If you are going to continue with these events then shouldn"t there be proper satellites that include a hotel package and spending money for flights aswell as your tourney buy-in ? That way more regulars could then justify these trips.
I just think that it is a great shame that for the vast majority of regular APAT players, people who hate to miss even one event per season, are now going to be forced out of up to 3 events this season and yes, I put myself in this category.
This is an observation but am I the only person who feels that these tournies are detracting from the APAT ethos and community spirit and feel ?
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Difficult for me to put into words my thoughts on this Brian but they are very similar to yours.
I have to say, the updates as always are fab, the guys do a bang up job, but its not the same. We maybe railed about 9 players we know of and it is unfortunate that they went out early yesterday.
What seems a shame is that 90% of the field are unknowns who don"t even know what APAT is about, they are there just to play a tournament that is in their local casino, yes they may be APAT members now and we welcome them, but it is not the "normal" spirited APAT event.
It is a worry, moreso there are still a couple of european tours still to come, and have to wonder how many will travel to those events.
I was just mentioning to someone yesterday how APAT is to allow people to play these gr8 tournaments for such a reasonable buy in without the worry of huge added expense. What we have here tho, is good buy-in for tournament and huge costs for travel/expenses.
This is not an unspirited post, love the ethos that APAT represents, but I am not sure these European tournaments can be justified to hold 3 a year, yes 1 would be fine, allowing those fortunate enough to be able to attend the opportunity of overseas tournament and also an increase in european players, but can"t say Im keen.
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Not going on about APAT ethos and that, but I know I can"t afford 3 in the year if I want to do many of the UK ones. Will be lucky to get to one euro tourney...and you can be sure it"ll include sun! :)
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Must be a real bummer to have the worry of how and when you are going to get home
Erm no ;D
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It"s a very interesting topic - and it will be interesting to see what the "Austrian 9" made of the experience.
For me - although unlikely I will be able to attend any of these events I think it is great that the APAT is looking to branch out and become something bigger.
For me - 95+% of poker players are amateurs - so it feels like the tour should be bigger.
I certainly agree that there should be full package sat"s and lots of them!
I think there should be more qualification seats and packages for all the events - it shouldn"t rely on being ready for a clickfest - or holding tank to open.
It would be great if the Austrians could come to the World events - but I guess they are already sold out??
L
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Firstly, I hope that "all " you APAT"ers currently stuck out in Austria get back safely and as quickly as possible. Must be a real bummer to have the worry of how and when you are going to get home hanging over a weekend away like that and, having spent a night sleeping outside on a German car-park surounded by 300 police in Stuttgart at the last World Cup, I KNOW how you feel (but that"s another story !)
The purpose of this post is that I was wondering if it is just me who thinks that these European events are detracting from the APAT "family" feel ?
IMO, this isn"t an APAT event at all. It is a poker tourney taking place in Vienna that has EIGHT (correct me if I am wrong) APAT regulars taking part. There were probably more APAT players than that in the UKIPT this weekend. Maybe that was an APAT event too ?
For most of us, getting away for a weekend when you have a family can be difficult, but we can do it for events that don"t cost the Earth. This trip however would have cost the best part of £350-£400 before a card had been dealt or a 9-euro bottle of beer been purchased. How can you justify that for a £75 tournament ? You would have to make the Final Table to break even.
Do we not have enough casino"s in the UK to cater for all of these events ?
We have no tourney in Walsall or Birmingham this season for whatever reason, yet a tourney here this weekend would have surely have got more than 8 (?) regular APAT"ers ?
I understand the thought that APAT want to reach out to Europe but do you really think that many (any ?) of the local players will ever take part in another APAT event ?....will they be inspired to fly to Aberdeen next month ?
Personally, I think not.
If you are going to continue with these events then shouldn"t there be proper satellites that include a hotel package and spending money for flights aswell as your tourney buy-in ? That way more regulars could then justify these trips.
I just think that it is a great shame that for the vast majority of regular APAT players, people who hate to miss even one event per season, are now going to be forced out of up to 3 events this season and yes, I put myself in this category.
This is an observation but am I the only person who feels that these tournies are detracting from the APAT ethos and community spirit and feel ?
I felt when the tour for S4 was announced it was a case of "walk before you could run". There is so much potential in the UK for an amateur tour without branching into European locations.
To have 4 out of the 11 overseas is alot and I feel dispropotionate to the majority of the amateur members of the APAT bankroll and time. As has been said the £75 buy in is alot...without the travel expenses to again the vast majority of its members...let alone the buy in and travelling for Euro trips.
As with the pro league..I fear that it could be said the APAT is becoming more distance with the majortiy of its members.
Branch out of course..but in the way that captures more opportunity..not in a way that decreases that opportunity.
What is the aim of APAT to have more members or more active members?
To have a higher presense in the UK or Europe?
To have amatuer players with modest bankrolls or high rollers?
and if you can only have 1 of each...where is the direction?
IMHO.
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A few points
There are over 20,000 APAT members across the world. It"s not just a UK-centric organisation, and never was intended to be.
There are no fewer UK based events in Season 4 than there were in seasons 1-3. A few of the venues may be different but that reflects a) who wants us? b) can we afford to go there within the event budget provided by the sponsor and c) have they performed up to expectations for us in the past?
Some of the European venues reflect input from our sponsor, and as they provide over 30 seats to players this year, and pay for all APAT's costs, then that is fair enough.
When we last went to Austria 70 people went across from the UK. Since then economies have changed, and this time round we had Ash cloud uncertainty too. It is fair to say though that these events are designed to appeal to our members in the region first and foremost. It could well be the case that satellite offers for the UK players could be different and we will look at that
I don"t regard this event as any less of an APAT Event than a UK based event. It may not appeal to you, or be in your reach, but we worked very hard with the venue to raise the profile of APAT in the region beofre the event via emails to players in the region, flyers etc. The result of that was 179 runners. The winner knows he is getting a GUKPT seat too
Long term, and you might reasonably expect non-european APAT events soon enough, this has to be a good thing for an organisation that wants to represent Amateur poker players worldwide as an association and as a live poker offer, with no registration fees (which stunned the Austrian players) added values, great structures.
APAT is a force for good, and not just in the UK
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How many people play the whole tour?
How many people can afford to play the whole tour, even if it was all held just in the UK?
Not being able to afford to play the overseas tournaments is fairly irrelevant unless you can afford to play all the others because if you"re missing some of them it isn"t relevant if it"s the Austrian event you"re missing or the London one, for example.
There may be a hardcore of people who play them all and really don"t want to miss out on any points scoring opportunities but it"s a fairly small proportion of APAT members who play more than 3 or 4 tournaments in a year.
That"s why I don"t think the overseas tournaments aren"t negative things.
The reason why I think they are positive was provided by Mair
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What seems a shame is that 90% of the field are unknowns who don"t even know what APAT is about, they are there just to play a tournament that is in their local casino, yes they may be APAT members now and we welcome them, but it is not the "normal" spirited APAT event.
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I was just mentioning to someone yesterday how APAT is to allow people to play these gr8 tournaments for such a reasonable buy in without the worry of huge added expense. What we have here tho, is good buy-in for tournament and huge costs for travel/expenses.
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It"s a pretty good result for 90% of the field to have such a great tournament for such a reasonable buy in.
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I started this before Tighty"s post came up but I tend to agree with what he has said. I look at the European events being an addition to what is a great tour. Whilst some locations have changed, we have about the same amount of tourneys in the UK.
When I looked at the season 4 schedule I was pleased to see the Euro events but also knew that due to expenses I"d only be able to realistically make one of these events.
Previous posters mention satellites to the Euro events, in the case for Austria there were sats but few of us supported them, I"m sure Paul Mc won the only sat we managed to run for a reasonable package. Worth asking if it is too late in the day to run some sort of steps system for future Euro events, 1 $5 rebuy or $20 freezeout per week with xxx seats to a monthly final for a reasonable package/s dependent on runners.
My biggest worry this year has been the running of the Pro event alongside the Amatuer one which has significantly reduced the places available for the main event. This more than anything, IMHO has had more effect on APATERs being unable to play events. Quite happy to see the Pro event run but not at the expense of the main event, possibly done on the Sunday. I am aware of the call for many for a small side event on the Sunday for those that have travelled for the weekend but sure that something could be run beside a Pro event on the Sunday.
Just my tuppence worth, keep up the good work guys.
Geo
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Thanks Geo
Understand your points about the Pro events entirely
One of the key reasons they are held on the Saturday is to be able to live stream the final, which we wouldn"t be able to do if it was held on a Sunday only when the £75 event was reaching it"s conclusion. Clearly we have had to do the Pro event on a Sunday at Aberdeen, so will be interested to see what happens with that
As to numbers Pro vis a vis Amateur capacity, we are struggling with UK venues a bit. Capacities are tighter generally, management attitudes to third party poker events are less accomodating than they have been in past...probably due to poker being seen as a cost centre rather than a profit centre in economic times where some venues are struggling
Long term..assuming correct satellites...APAT being as broad a live poker provider as possible geographically can only be a good thing
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A few points
There are over 20,000 APAT members across the world. It"s not just a UK-centric organisation, and never was intended to be.
There are no fewer UK based events in Season 4 than there were in seasons 1-3. A few of the venues may be different but that reflects a) who wants us? b) can we afford to go there within the event budget provided by the sponsor and c) have they performed up to expectations for us in the past?
Some of the European venues reflect input from our sponsor, and as they provide over 30 seats to players this year, and pay for all APAT's costs, then that is fair enough.
When we last went to Austria 70 people went across from the UK. Since then economies have changed, and this time round we had Ash cloud uncertainty too. It is fair to say though that these events are designed to appeal to our members in the region first and foremost. It could well be the case that satellite offers for the UK players could be different and we will look at that
I don"t regard this event as any less of an APAT Event than a UK based event. It may not appeal to you, or be in your reach, but we worked very hard with the venue to raise the profile of APAT in the region beofre the event via emails to players in the region, flyers etc. The result of that was 179 runners. The winner knows he is getting a GUKPT seat too
Long term, and you might reasonably expect non-european APAT events soon enough, this has to be a good thing for an organisation that wants to represent Amateur poker players worldwide as an association and as a live poker offer, with no registration fees (which stunned the Austrian players) added values, great structures.
APAT is a force for good, and not just in the UK
hard to argue against - fair enough...and as i dont play all of the UK live tours anyway i guess i should keep schtum!
APAT has allowed me to play more live poker with great strutures and more online, all against better players than me when i started and so I can"t help but get better... so i"ll shut up.... :)
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Long term..assuming correct satellites...APAT being as broad a live poker provider as possible geographically can only be a good thing
Agreed sir,
good luck for the rest of the weekend and getting back.
Geo
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Why is live streaming so important ? There is no live streaming today ?
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Why is live streaming so important ? There is no live streaming today ?
Well at the moment the cost of live streaming abroad is too expensive, in terms of getting the people across...and its not covered in the sponsorship agreement. Moving forward, it may be.
For the UK events, I think its definitely added a lot to people at home"s enjoyment of the events. It"s not "so important" per se but logically if done well and developed can help increase the media profile of APAT, thus increasing membership and "brand value" too.
Once we"ve decided to do a Pro league (and some disagree with this, I know), then its equally logical to support that with streaming rather than not cover it.
I look at the streaming stuff for EPTs, UKIPTs etc and I think it adds a lot to site content too.
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The live streaming has been great, and when you cant be there it gives a great in sight into the event. As regards overseas, why not? I haven"t managed a national event yet this year, and I can"t make Aberdeen, but I will get to any event I can, and because I haven"t played a UK event this year then I can justify a European Tour!!
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Why is live streaming so important ? There is no live streaming today ?
Well at the moment the cost of live streaming abroad is too expensive, in terms of getting the people across...and its not covered in the sponsorship agreement. Moving forward, it may be.
For the UK events, I think its definitely added a lot to people at home"s enjoyment of the events. It"s not "so important" per se but logically if done well and developed can help increase the media profile of APAT, thus increasing membership and "brand value" too.
Once we"ve decided to do a Pro league (and some disagree with this, I know), then its equally logical to support that with streaming rather than not cover it.
I look at the streaming stuff for EPTs, UKIPTs etc and I think it adds a lot to site content too.
I also question the benefits of live streaming... In my opinion there is nothing more boring than watching poker without being able to see the hole cards. Yes, I know the purists will say it"s good to try and put people on hands etc, etc... but as for entertainment value - it has none!
Also the live streaming is at the expense of the quality of the "live updates" on the forum... following both of the events that I have played this year my wife commented that the upadtes weren"t anything like as good as previous years.
As for the Euro events, as already stated they are in addition to the regular UK events - not in place of. Difficult to criticise that.
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Getting to Aberdeen is going to be just as expensive as Vienna or Barcelona (and more awkward). Please make next year"s Scottish somewhere accessible like Glasgow or Edinburgh.
When we last went to Austria 70 people went across from the UK.
More people would have gone this time if it was the only foreign one, but a lot are waiting for the Spanish one.
We have no tourney in Walsall or Birmingham this season
Good.
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Yes Alan, we know the updates suffer when live streams are alongside.
Difficult to do both and run the event, and something we have discussed already in the first few events of S4.
How to prioritise resources, who should commentate, should we commentate? etc etc
Should we even live update at all? Live stream only with a comments box? etc etc
All to be worked out
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Foreign stuff is awesome.
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Getting to Aberdeen is going to be just as expensive as Vienna or Barcelona (and more awkward). Please make next year"s Scottish somewhere accessible like Glasgow or Edinburgh.
When we last went to Austria 70 people went across from the UK.
More people would have gone this time if it was the only foreign one, but a lot are waiting for the Spanish one.
We have no tourney in Walsall or Birmingham this season
Good.
Glasgow. No event venue wanted us
Edinburgh. The Gala Maybury was extremely poor last year
Scotland is THE trickiest place to arrange.
I agree Glasgow and Edinburgh would be better for most, all other things being equal
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Should we even live update at all? Live stream only with a comments box? etc etc
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I agree with Alan that the live streaming doesn"t really add that much benefit.
I think your above suggestion is the wrong way round, if anything I think the question should be, "Should we even live stream at all?"
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Should we even live update at all? Live stream only with a comments box? etc etc
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I agree with Alan that the live streaming doesn"t really add that much benefit.
I think your above suggestion is the wrong way round, if anything I think the question should be, "Should we even live stream at all?"
Yep, noted.
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I also question the benefits of live streaming... In my opinion there is nothing more boring than watching poker without being able to see the hole cards. Yes, I know the purists will say it"s good to try and put people on hands etc, etc... but as for entertainment value - it has none!
Apparently it was a pretty entertaining night in Duffs when they had it on the big screen during the London event. Quite a few players want to come to future APAT events as a result.
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Yes Alan, we know the updates suffer when live streams are alongside.
Difficult to do both and run the event, and something we have discussed already in the first few events of S4.
How to prioritise resources, who should commentate, should we commentate? etc etc
Should we even live update at all? Live stream only with a comments box? etc etc
All to be worked out
I fully appreciate the reasons, I made the point more as an observation than a criticism.
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Getting to Aberdeen is going to be just as expensive as Vienna or Barcelona (and more awkward). Please make next year"s Scottish somewhere accessible like Glasgow or Edinburgh Northhampton.
When we last went to Austria 70 people went across from the UK.
More people would have gone this time if it was the only foreign one, but a lot are waiting for the Spanish one.
We have no tourney in Walsall or Birmingham this season
Good.
FYP
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Pro League - Saturday does suit me much better - though I think it being on Sunday does make more sense - especially with the current low numbers.
In terms of streaming - always fun - but for me shouldn"t drive the debate.
If the Pro League were moved to Sundays as per Aberdeen would players be allowed to enter the Saturday starting APAT event - play aggressively and then buy into the Sunday Pro League if they bust - could create distortions.
L
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I"m not going to be able to make many events if any this season due to other commitments, but I did manage to watch the live streaming from the last couple and thought it was great, ok so you couldnt see the cards but alot better than pressing F5 every few minutes, worked well imo.
Europe - hmm not sure, thought it was great when I saw the season schedule, but I suspose disappointing that I couldnt make it and more so when the first event was only supported by 8 regs. But at the end of the day theres what approx 180 playing in an APAT tourney outside of the UK so that has got to be measured as a success regardless of what the players nationalities are.
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read the OP but no replies (so apologies)
Firstly, there is a comp in coventry this season, so that covers the midlands tourney problem (if DTD in nottingham didn"t do so already). I know the organisation at Walsall last season was v poor and can understand APAT not wanting to go there again..
secondly, these European jaunts are just an add on to what we have already had in S3 (UK, English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, European and Worlds) so the UK contingent of APAT aren"t really missing out.
I personally cant make any of the Euro trips, but still think they are a great idea and a good chance for our euro friends to learn about APAT and strengthen the organisation (if only in numbers)
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They"re deffo great for APAT. We"re all just jealous. Especially after hearing the price of drink isn"t as bad as was earlier reported. :D
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Isn"t Europe just another dimension? and I guess it was expected that these tournaments would be mainly played by the locals and a good way of spreading the word. I think it would be far stranger if the tourney was full of 150 British and Irish APAT regs. If I could make one I would definitely attend but I"m having problems freeing up any weekend at the moment.
As for the live updates I think they have been immense and Leigh and Tighty have done an excellent job of bringing us the news. The update thread should really be there for cliffs, for people to post requests and forr interaction with the commentator, so the thread is what YOU make it.
Locations of UK events are never going to please everyone but I was at Walsall last year and it was dire (and Manchester is the worst G in the UK) so I think Coventry could be a welcome addition. One thing that always gets me is there is a gang of players who regulary travel from the North East to events, always laughing, smiling and having a good time and there are also regular players from Scotland and Ireland they never complain about locations and they have the most travelling to do.
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this has to be a good thing for an organisation that wants to represent Amateur poker players worldwide as an association and as a live poker offer, with no registration fees (which stunned the Austrian players) added values, great structures.
APAT is a force for good, and not just in the UK
this, especially the bit in bold.
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Glasgow. No event venue wanted us
Edinburgh. The Gala Maybury was extremely poor last year
Scotland is THE trickiest place to arrange.
maybe that will change afer this year aberdeen being moved to international , i beleve Alea is owned by the same people maybe they would like us next year .
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Locations of UK events are never going to please everyone but I was at Walsall last year and it was dire (and Manchester is the worst G in the UK) so I think Coventry could be a welcome addition. One thing that always gets me is there is a gang of players who regulary travel from the North East to events, always laughing, smiling and having a good time and there are also regular players from Scotland and Ireland they never complain about locations and they have the most travelling to do.
shame there isnt a DTD in every town lol , would love one up here in scotland
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From the general tone I guess I was in the minority then. Why not get rid of some of the English events in S4 so u can branch out into more countries ?
Oh...... and does anyone care who won today ?
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Why not get rid of some of the English events in S4 so u can branch out into more countries ?
Cant think of a good reason for getting rid of the present tourneys - just good reasons for adding new ones in different countries
Oh...... and does anyone care who won today ?
Well I reckon. the winner, his friends and his family
In fact, similar groups of people to those who cared when you won in Ireland last year, Brian
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Rob....we ALL rail these tourneys usually. Did anyone really care who won once Paul, Ger and the others went out ?. My guess is no......and for me that is a great shame.
I just think these tourneys mark a change in APAT's direction, be it good or bad. I think it is bad.
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Rob....we ALL rail these tourneys usually. Did anyone really care who won once Paul, Ger and the others went out ?. My guess is no......and for me that is a great shame.
I just think these tourneys mark a change in APAT's direction, be it good or bad. I think it is bad.
Brian, granted that not too many of the current regulars were overly bothered about who won once our compratriots were knocked out, but I"m sure there were plenty of others who did care. So long as the current APAT community doesn"t suffer through a decrease in the volume of Nationals, expanding APAT into other territories is surely a good thing? Next year, perhaps a bunch of Austrians will be watching out of the S5 announcements with the same anticipation that we did for S4, and maybe some will look to come to the UK to participate in those events that are local to you and I.
I think that keeping APAT as a UK exclusive community would not be good for Amateur poker. The concept of APAT is about bringing value poker to the masses for affordable buy in - but I thought it was also about standardisation of the game.... and to achieve that, it has to gain exposure beyond the UK shores.
Having this event in Vienna has not decreased the amount of local opportunity we"ve had compared to last season - so I can"t see how it can be a problem.
imo it"s all good.
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I think it is bad.
imo it"s all good.
imo it is irrelevant.
So long as the current APAT community doesn"t suffer through a decrease in the volume of Nationals, expanding APAT into other territories is surely a good thing?
Why?
I think that keeping APAT as a UK exclusive community would not be good for Amateur poker.
Why?
The concept of APAT is about bringing value poker to the masses for affordable buy in.
To tell you the truth, I don"t give a stuff whether the masses in Austria have value poker at an affordable buy-in.
Having this event in Vienna has not decreased the amount of local opportunity we"ve had compared to last season - so I can"t see how it can be a problem.
This is the crux, imo. I"m sure expansion is good for the APAT organisation. If the UK players get fewer tournaments as a result, it would be bad. If we are not affected it is irrelevant.
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Having this event in Vienna has not decreased the amount of local opportunity we"ve had compared to last season - so I can"t see how it can be a problem.
This is the crux, imo. I"m sure expansion is good for the APAT organisation. If the UK players get fewer tournaments as a result, it would be bad. If we are not affected it is irrelevant.
The only slight downside to this would be the players vying for the leaderboard for the live league, and not getting the opportunity to play in all the games than other people could...so potential for the "elite" with bigger bankrolls, to have a better chance to win the whole league. :-\
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So long as the current APAT community doesn"t suffer through a decrease in the volume of Nationals, expanding APAT into other territories is surely a good thing?
Why?
APAT is an excellent concept. Why do you advocate keeping it UK only? Why not expand to other countries and share the benefits? If we araen"t careful here, we will start sounding American, where our sport is based entirely in our country but called the World Series. Poker is a global game..... there are Amateur poker players all over the world - let"s standardise Amateur poker using the APAT concept. To answer your question with a question... why not?
I think that keeping APAT as a UK exclusive community would not be good for Amateur poker.
Why?
Again, to answer your question with a question..... why do you think it would be good to reserve all that is good about APAT for the UK only?
The concept of APAT is about bringing value poker to the masses for affordable buy in.
To tell you the truth, I don"t give a stuff whether the masses in Austria have value poker at an affordable buy-in.
A bit narrow minded?
Having this event in Vienna has not decreased the amount of local opportunity we"ve had compared to last season - so I can"t see how it can be a problem.
This is the crux, imo. I"m sure expansion is good for the APAT organisation. If the UK players get fewer tournaments as a result, it would be bad. If we are not affected it is irrelevant.
Indeed, but actually not irrelevant if your are Austrian, Estonian, or Spanish!
John, I presume you enjoyed the European team game last year? Would have been a bit naff if it was UK countries only, don"t you think? I bet we get Austrian representation this year.
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Having this event in Vienna has not decreased the amount of local opportunity we"ve had compared to last season - so I can"t see how it can be a problem.
This is the crux, imo. I"m sure expansion is good for the APAT organisation. If the UK players get fewer tournaments as a result, it would be bad. If we are not affected it is irrelevant.
The only slight downside to this would be the players vying for the leaderboard for the live league, and not getting the opportunity to play in all the games than other people could...so potential for the "elite" with bigger bankrolls, to have a better chance to win the whole league. :-\
I touched on that in my earlier response.
To play in every tournament, even if every tournament was only held in the UK, would be fairly expensive - I think most of the APAT membership membership couldn"t afford to do it (even if they could take time off work for the inevitable Friday and/or Mondays needed for travelling).
So yes, it does damage the set of players who could afford all the UK tournaments but not all the overseas ones as well - but that"s a pretty small minority and I don"t think restricting the geographical spread of the tour and the general growth of APAT just for those few players would really be fair.
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Just my two pence worth !
Not bothered if we have european games in other countries as long as we don"t lose any games in the UK, which this season hasn"t happened ( well done Betfair ) I can"t afford to play in any euro games due to cost which I think is also the majority of Apaters ??, My only gripe is the PRO league which is effecting the amount of players that cant play the normal tourneys, we should either get rid of this or somehow change the dates etc ?? so that more of us can play, its a good idea but annoying when you cant get a seat due to numbers being reduced ! Also from the number of players playing the pro doesn"t seem to be a big hit yet !!
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Just my two pence worth !
Not bothered if we have european games in other countries as long as we don"t lose any games in the UK, which this season hasn"t happened ( well done Betfair ) I can"t afford to play in any euro games due to cost which I think is also the majority of Apaters ??, My only gripe is the PRO league which is effecting the amount of players that cant play the normal tourneys, we should either get rid of this or somehow change the dates etc ?? so that more of us can play, its a good idea but annoying when you cant get a seat due to numbers being reduced ! Also from the number of players playing the pro doesn"t seem to be a big hit yet !!
Wise words !!!! not a fan of the pro league,,,,main event all day long for me lol,,,,,oh and for wot its worth i like the live streaming,,,,,watched the welsh all day long !!!!!
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Many different points brought up here, some good, some not so good imo but that"s MY opinion.
Pro League: Detracts too much from APAT. APAT is an AMATEUR tour, it says so in the title, so why do we have a "Pro League"? I think the Pro-Am events that were held in earlier seasons would be more suitable.
Live Streaming: The live streaming is a good addition but I disagree with people that seem to be hinting to focus on one or the other. On Day 1, Nutz TV tend to focus on one table and there are 19 other tables that would be missed if we focused on streaming rather than text based updates. The text updates are definitely still needed.
We haven"t lost any dates in the UK this season so I don"t really understand why people are complaining. Personally, I"d abandon the whole "Live League" concept as this can put a few people off, and then the money saved from that could be used to either enhance the current tournament offerings or have an extra tournament?
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APAT is an excellent concept. Why do you advocate keeping it UK only?
why do you think it would be good to reserve all that is good about APAT for the UK only?
Any other views of mine you want to imagine, cos you imagined both of those. Talk about putting words in someone"s mouth - I"ll get Adam "Don"t tell me what I think" Boulton to sort you out.
I"m not in favour of European events, but I"m not against them either - I"m indifferent about them. I guess whoever goes to Spain will have a great time, and we have the option to go to the others, so that would make me a bit in favour. Also, if it strengthens APAT, we may benefit indirectly. Apart from that though, they don"t have any effect on us, so I don"t see them as a problem, but I don"t see them as part of a mission to spread great poker structures round the world either.
The concept of APAT is about bringing value poker to the masses for affordable buy in.
To tell you the truth, I don"t give a stuff whether the masses in Austria have value poker at an affordable buy-in.
A bit narrow minded?
Don"t see why. Are you really interested in whether players in every country in the world have a good structure, etc? I don"t believe it. Why stop at Austria if you are so concerned about it? Let"s do our bit to make sure that the players in Turkey have good overlays. And are there enough deep-stacked tournaments in The Philippines? It"s not our issue to sort out.
The concept of APAT is about bringing value poker to the masses for affordable buy in - but I thought it was also about standardisation of the game.... and to achieve that, it has to gain exposure beyond the UK shores.
I wasn"t aware that standardising the rules throughout the world was one of the purposes of APAT. First I"ve heard of it.
Having this event in Vienna has not decreased the amount of local opportunity we"ve had compared to last season - so I can"t see how it can be a problem.
This is the crux, imo. I"m sure expansion is good for the APAT organisation. If the UK players get fewer tournaments as a result, it would be bad. If we are not affected it is irrelevant.
Indeed, but actually not irrelevant if your are Austrian, Estonian, or Spanish!
I"m not.
John, I presume you enjoyed the European team game last year? Would have been a bit naff if it was UK countries only, don"t you think?
Eh? Bit of a non-sequitur.
I"m not sure how we"ve got into this Steve, as I"m not opposed to your view. Good luck with your mission for world peace.
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APAT is an excellent concept. Why do you advocate keeping it UK only?
why do you think it would be good to reserve all that is good about APAT for the UK only?
Any other views of mine you want to imagine, cos you imagined both of those. Talk about putting words in someone"s mouth - I"ll get Adam "Don"t tell me what I think" Boulton to sort you out.
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The way i read this, i think AMRN was referring to his own response to one of your questions, with a question, waiting for an answer :P
On the subject of the APAT going abroad it was always going to be a costly venture, the same way we dont have loads of European based players flying to Swansea, Coventry etc for "our" home events. Theres probably many players across Europe bemoaning this very matter with regards to going to England to play in these events. It would be very ignorant of APAT to ignore those players and not branch out their own profile, congrats to them for succeeding in this, based on the Vienna turnout.
However, imo what is a let down is that we probably (could be wrong) wont see these winners and FT"ers again at an APAT event and also, is the GUKPT seat going to be a waste for the winners in the seasons Euro events if won by a non UK resident.
Away from the anti globalization of APAT, one thing to try to do in future (as mentioned already) is to offer up packages for satellite winners for future euro events. On a side note however, wouldnt we have to offer the same for our European counterparts for UK based events???
You just cant please everyone all of the time :(
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P.S im not sure why my actual comments were all put in a quote box. i still havent figured out how to cut n paste quotes and use them very skillfully in my own post, hmmm.
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Away from the anti globalization of APAT, one thing to try to do in future (as mentioned already) is to offer up packages for satellite winners for future euro events. On a side note however, wouldnt we have to offer the same for our European counterparts for UK based events???
You just cant please everyone all of the time :(
It is something I thought of, and think would be fab if the sat packages were bigger to incorporate all expenses involved in the tournaments, and it works for both UK and european players. If it is possible, who knows, but would be a wonderful thing to be able to play a sat to gain the seat and expenses for travelling/accommodation
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Live Streaming: The live streaming is a good addition but I disagree with people that seem to be hinting to focus on one or the other. On Day 1, Nutz TV tend to focus on one table and there are 19 other tables that would be missed if we focused on streaming rather than text based updates. The text updates are definitely still needed.
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I think that goes to the crux of the problem, there are 19 other tables and they have largely been overlooked because the text updates are being overlooked. There are occasional chip count updates, but the interactivity is gone so the threads are very dry and bare - and because of this even the factual updates of how the tournament is progressing are much more infrequent than before.
People who can watch the live stream as a long TV show can more or less keep up with what"s going on, but anybody who just either happens to come across the site whilst a tournament is being played or is doing other things and wants to dip in now and again to keep up with it isn"t really going to have much luck.
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Glasgow. No event venue wanted us
Edinburgh. The Gala Maybury was extremely poor last year
Scotland is THE trickiest place to arrange.
I agree Glasgow and Edinburgh would be better for most, all other things being equal
Really? Did anyone speak to the Stanley Circus in Edinburgh?
Nicest cardroom in the central belt and could cope with up to 180, prob 200 at a push. (I did mention this to Des last year).
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Really Tighty? What kind of business development plan includes turning away 170 beer guzzling poker players from a casino? Surely the margin on Gers pints alone would pay for the dealers.
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Just got onto the forum and have been reading through this, a fair debate, but a strange one, a bit like some poker styles that some of us have seen over the weekend.
For one, I have probably just been to my best APAT event. Socially it was superb, 8 of us drinking and playing poker and having a good laugh. Not just a brief chat, bit a few hours chatting together, railing and checking on each other through the tournaments on both days, and a few pints.
The venue was superb and the Casino staff were excellent. One drawback for some would have been the smoking, but I smoke, after all this time in the UK though it didn"t seem right, but it was less hands to miss for me.
So for this debate:
This was a great tournament that introduced a new level of Poker to another part of Europe. The number of comments made about the great structure, I think Christoph the winner also commented on this in his post, was staggering. Gerhard who came second was of the same opinion, this only promotes APAT in a positive light and for me is showing what it is all about, taking low cost Poker to the masses and providing an opportunity for people to experience what a Deepstack tournament is all about.
It doesn"t matter where the tournaments are being played, what country they are in, who"s able to take part, who isn"t, they are no different than any of the other APAT tournaments. They are an APAT tournament and that"s the bit that matters in my opinion and it"s also something that we should all support and be proud of.
and for the record, this one cost me no more than Swansea when I add up hotels, petrol, drinking and food.
22 for the win ;D
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Wait!! You can smoke at the poker table? How very civilised. I"m in, I"m all for European tournaments.
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I will give you my thoughts as others are...
For Europe, I personally totted up the cost of playing a £75 tournament, add flights and hotel etc etc etc... Travelling to UK APAT events, in my world, normally has 2, 3 or 4 of us at some point sharing a car and sharing the fuel costs, and to be honest, this year has been very low in that some nice company is footing these bills for us in a company car, so very low. So comparing the cost of UK travel to an event, compared to EU travel to an event, is a big difference, and as explained, the cost of travel added to the hotels m priced it out of my choices to play. *IF* there were any events in Northern France, then I am sure a drive to the event would be a high possibility for myself and lots more other UK regulars.. It did not mean I was not interested because my Buddy and next door neighbour, The Duke, was playing, and also another local(ish) friend, Cyntaf, but once those 2 had gone out, I sort of really just checked in at the end to see how things went.
For Aberdeen, I have already satt"d into this event so getting in cheap, but, some players who are going are definately flying. That is fine, and the cheapo flights are great, but, the one thing I am aware of and I dont like, is if you go there by car, is, you have the flexibility to go home if you want. I did this after the Vic tournament. The Sunday side game had no appeal to me (HORSE) so decided to give it a miss and make the drive home. You cant do that with a flight, you MUST book to come home Monday because the cheapo airlines do not really do flxible tickes like normal airlines do.
For the video streaming. I like the idea of this. For the very first event on day 2, I was even a big part of the proceedings. I was having fun, my family were having fun, the word got around and loads of people were wishing me well by txt msg.. It was all good... but... and its not a big, but... I came home having spend all of day 2 on the feature table, and lots of fun to be had, and lots of stories from friends and relatives, congrats etc... I did not see one little bit of it. I came home and there is nothing that I can see back. I have nothing to show those that never knew anything was happening. I have no history of the day. I realise that there is a cost associated with the whole video feature and recording 2 days of poker, but, can"t the interviews be recorded? Even if it was recorded locally at the camera instead of across streaming recording, and then uploaded after the event.
Also, something that has been mentioned, certainly in the first event of the year in Swansea, i got home and wanted to see comments and I know people post congrats etc etc, and also see 2 days worth of the usual excellent quality updates, and it was really eveident that the live text updates had come 2nd place to the video and audio updates, and, I know why, I was there while it was happening, there was this new technology being worked and the updaters were a big part of that.
As Rich has explained, the costs of shipping 2 video guys, and an interviewer over to EU, hotels, flights, cargo etc etc, is prohibitive right now, and we cant argue with that, maybe one day in the future they will have more sponsorship money that can cope with that cost too. As I said, I definatly like it. Made my final table experiece as an amateur player just seem that more important.
They buy-in level is perfect for me, I hope it does not go up.
Cheers
Carl.
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and think would be fab if the sat packages were bigger to incorporate all expenses involved
erm yep agree with that ::) ::) ::)
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and think would be fab if the sat packages were bigger to incorporate all expenses involved
erm yep agree with that ::) ::) ::)
Welcome back Duke.
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In response to Shogun. I agree with the whole video thing. I mean we are amatures and it"s a great experience at apat events with the live broadcasts and interviews. For most of us it"s the closest thing we are going to get to a major televised event. I know there is a cost issue involved and of course server space but it would be great to have the video interviews and the footage from the final table action. I, like Carl, have the same company sponsoring my travel costs so it makes it easier to play local events. I was a long distance truck driver in Canada so distance is fairly relative around the UK and Europe as I"m only about 15 hrs from everywhere. European tournaments sound pretty good and hopfully I"ll be able to attend a few in the comming years.
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Re the cost of travel, and comparision of Euro travel compared to UK travel.... it kinda misses the point me thinks. Whilst ALL events are open to ALL APAT members, the Euro events aren"t just about a holiday for the UK APAT players.... they are primarily to spread APAT into a region that is wider than just the UK.
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Finally got home last night and as one of the "Austrian 9" wanted to disagree with some of the points made on here. Firstly to echo Don"s post above, this in my view was one of the best APAT events I"ve been to. Vienna in S2 (?) was my very first APAT and as such I"ve always considered APAT as not just a UK tournament based tour. In fact I was quite disappointed that last season didnt have another European adventure after praising that trip to all that would listen up in the North East.
..One thing that always gets me is there is a gang of players who regulary travel from the North East to events, always laughing, smiling and having a good time and there are also regular players from Scotland and Ireland they never complain about locations and they have the most travelling to do.
Its mainly laughing at Stu"s beard to be fair :) But from a personal point of view I don"t want to have an APAT tournament on my doorstep. The nearest venue that I"ve ever travelled was 2 hours to DTD. I can visit Casinos in Teesside and Newcastle any day of the week, I dont want the venues to be local, APAT for me gives me the chance to go and play in places I"d never have the chance to before (some good some bad), enjoy banter with fellow APATers and experience different parts of the country and Europe that I"d never been to before.
The craic this weekend was excellent, Friday evening was an experience with Don Logan, Paulie and Ger that I won"t forget for a long time. The poker although random was enjoyable with the casino running an excellent tournament both days and the players (especially on Sunday) being one of the most chilled out set of players I"ve played with in a long long time.
Rich and Leigh did a fantastic job, can"t praise them enough, especially on day 2 with no UK players making it. Having chatted to both the winner and runner up both are up for further APAT events after just learning about APAT in the weeks upto the tournament being ran. Everywhere you looked the casino had the APAT brand and tournament promoted. Surely this cant be a bad thing. As has already been said, if the UK players are getting the same number of tournaments then I can"t see a problem. I for one will be playing the European events and missing a number of UK based ones as a consequence. I won"t be at Aberdeen, but there"s already 4 or 5 including me from Stockton going to Estonia.
From my point of view. Its all good. Just add in Vegas next season and it"ll be perfect.
10 3 suited FTW :)
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Surely every APAT event seems like it"s in a foreign country to the Teesside Massiv :D
And Vegas next year......Are we thinking late March by any chance?
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Highlights:
Tighty watching umpteen hours of 4 asian ladies playing Mahjong and throwing out the occasional "Well Played!" comment or "Misdeal" when a tile went on the floor.
Taxi driver who"ll check that you are at the right sort of "club" for you.
Lady at the "wrong" sort of establishment.."You go to the strip club and the come back and f*ck the ladies, Yes?"...We declined*.
Unknown German punk band on the car radio to the CCC...Phil in the back "I haven"t heard this one for ages". Paulie loses it in the front seat.
Sunday comp...Ger and Don in the final 27...oh and Phil was still in too much to everyone"s amazement...and they all go on to cash.
I continue my run-bad with AQ twice again....sometimes you gotta just laugh.
Ger confusing the valet staff after explaining that Paulie (me) was the "Boss" or sometimes "Papa_D", someone was the "Uncle", another was the "Grandpa", another was "Robin Hood". I guess you just had to be there.
*AFAIK. I"m a good boy.
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..And Vegas next year......Are we thinking late March by any chance?
JP.. its as if you could read my mind ;D
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Bloody hell, good read this.
..One thing that always gets me is there is a gang of players who regulary travel from the North East to events, always laughing, smiling and having a good time and there are also regular players from Scotland and Ireland they never complain about locations and they have the most travelling to do.
Its mainly laughing at Stu"s beard to be fair :)
Screw you!
As mentioned there (Sensible post by WASP shoccker btw) There ARE a lot of us who do a fair bit of travelling in the UK, and we love every second of it, it is a weekend away with the lads and we love it. We are all planning on getting to Estonia and cant wait for it.
APAT abroad does us absolutely no damage at all so i dont see why people would be opposed to it?
It just strikes me as being cliquey tbh.
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Well I have to say that I am surprised by lots of the replies to my original post but at least it shows we care !
If we are talking about branching out then.....and I have mentioned this to the "powers" behind APAT last year, though only briefly......how would everyone feel if APAT were to organise a poker cruise ?
Having been on one with Ladbrokes, believe me they are a fantastic experience incorporating poker and sunshine.....a GREAT combination !
It"s just an idea, but what does everyone think ? Would it get the support if it could be incorporated into the schedule ?
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For most of us, getting away for a weekend when you have a family can be difficult, but we can do it for events that don"t cost the Earth. This trip however would have cost the best part of £350-£400 before a card had been dealt or a 9-euro bottle of beer been purchased. How can you justify that for a £75 tournament ? You would have to make the Final Table to break even.
and now you want a cruise!!.. ;) :o
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how would everyone feel if APAT were to organise a poker cruise ?
If it leaves from UK... Flying to Miami to get on a cruise, and then fly home is just too much like hard work.
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how would everyone feel if APAT were to organise a poker cruise ?
If it leaves from UK... Flying to Miami to get on a cruise, and then fly home is just too much like hard work.
Somewhere like Holyhead - Careful you don"t slip on those two birds lying on the deck.
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how would everyone feel if APAT were to organise a poker cruise ?
If it leaves from UK... Flying to Miami to get on a cruise, and then fly home is just too much like hard work.
Somewhere like Holyhead - Careful you don"t slip on those two birds lying on the deck.
Liverpool or Birkenhead would obviously be much better once they finish the new Cruiser Liner Terminal. But why would Leigh organise anything other than Southampton..! hehe..
Some bird keeps crapping on my car while it is parked on my drive. Wait until I get her..!!
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Poker Cruise. 100% behind that. Great idea. Well up gor that!!
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poker cruise FTW
I suggest the WCOAP is played on it. That way it will truly be a global event.
Top idea Brian!!
Could be costly, but would be epic!!
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Sigh..what might start as the Finnish Amateur Poker Championship on day one, completes as the Icelandic Amateur Poker Championship on day 2. Think of the engraving....
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I have had better weekends, but that was purely down to feeling a little under the weather.
The company, from UK and Europe alike was terrific. Yes we bent more towards our own regs, they are friends after all so who wouldn"t support their friends? The German speaking Austrians were very friendly and accomodating towards us.
The card room and staff were very much to my liking, as were the tourney structures, dealers etc. The experience and learning curve of playing against players with a very different culture and playing styles was for me invaluable and perhaps something i will be able to draw from in the future.
Winning a package, although not completely covering all costs,was for me a big plus towards going to Vienna or not. This was my first tournament abroad and i liked it. I liked it a lot, and i would endevour to make more in the future. Obviously like most other people that will depend on money and work allowance. I think the move into Europe is a good thing, i am not speaking from a personal point of view. If i never make another foreign poker trip will not change the fact that this is a good thing, and i will always have my memories of this recent weekend away with all the uk players and APAT staff all mixing with the local players and staff, the Atmosphere genuinely was one of very high and friendly spirit. I can"t say it"s the same as a uk APAT event, but all my Apat weekends away have all been different, even the two in Dublin, same card room, same abode and same pub(Larry Murphy"s) were very different from one another.?? as the two in Edinburgh have differed from each other.
So i think to summarize as stated, as long as the UK events are not affected, ie reduced or have less sponsorship because the same pot has to be divided equally among more venues, then all is well.
Streaming has been reorted to me by friends and family as a wonderful and enjoyable tool. I too on return home have looked for a history which was less than normal, due to less input on the thread. There too was a little void that i could not watch some of the interviews, which i have been told were fun and amusing. Speaking to Tighty and Leigh they have and are continually making adjustments on the fly as the season rolls on to accomodate everyones wishes but within the constraints of the budget and manpower available.
Perhaps more Apater"s who find themselves on the rail could offer there own services to help, thereby freeing the resources for a better quality in whatever it is you would like to see improved.
Anyway my head hurts............ :-[
Great idea for a cruise Brian, imagine the atmosphere yes a captive audience right to the very end.
Cheers hope to see you soon, wherever it may be.
Paul :)