Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Mikeyboy9361 on May 30, 2010, 13:25:17 PM
Title: How would you have played this?
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on May 30, 2010, 13:25:17 PM
Betfair 25c/50c cash game. Been playing these for the last week with some success, having added about 150% to my Bankroll. Last night I had more than doubled my buy in and was just about to call it a night when this hand happened. I had been playing for a couple of hours and turned $25 into $66, and the villain in this hand had previously put me all in on the flop with top pair and a flush draw, my ovwr pair held. And he has had a tendency to over bet the pot. So 6 handed I am in the cut off, villlain to my immediate right has limped,unusual for him, and I look down at AJ suited, and also limp, as I like to play these a bit trappy, SB completes and BB checks. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow, the blinds check and villain raises to $5.75, I think about re popping but just call, the blinds get out,turn is another 3, villain bets $15. What do you do?
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: LongshanksED on May 30, 2010, 13:53:40 PM
AJ suited. I"m either going to limp to hope to flop a flush draw at worst. Unless I hit a JJ flop or flush draw I"m folding (or flop a straight)
if I"m going to play in the hand though, I"m generally gonna raise pre flop with position to isolate. If I get repopped it"s an easy fold. With it being a limped pot I don"t like the bet on the flop from villian. It"s either screaming super weak and hopefully everyone folds or it"s a bet that"s super strong trying to look weak but also a big bet to chase anypossible straight draw hands to protect his set, two pair or overpair. Bet by villian also makes pot control difficult as I would like to raise here with TPTK to evaluate villians next move but by then the pot is way bloated
As I said before, if limped I want to see a flush draw or I"m gone
maybe I"m super nitty here (and in cash I"m not usually this tight) but it doesn"t smell right. Villian has top 2 on flop or bottom set (which is a good concealed quads on the turn). But I"m folding
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: TheSnapper on May 30, 2010, 15:21:10 PM
Villains stack size is super important and as an aside, its not good to play with 50 bb stack, especially given your style is to be patient and get paid when you hit.
Raise Pf $2.25 (psb).
Limper will reraise hands that dominate you and you can comfortably fold losing the minimum. He will flat call with hands you dominate plus some you flip with like small pp"s (a big part of his limp calling range).
With his limp calling range he"ll usually play fit or fold on the flop, against this linear strategy you should cbet the flop 100% and you can bet really small too since he folds when he misses and only calls when he"s hit.
As played, fold the turn, you may be ahead sometimes but, you"ll have 30% of your stack in the pot and likely 40% of a full 100 bb stack if thats what villain started with. You then can"t fold to a river bet. So its an ai decision essentially. Its best to avoid these marginal spots barring a strong read that he"ll stack off taking the iniative with >tptk.
In the hand example you give of top pair and fd versus your overpair, he has made a standard play and hasn"t overplayed his hand at all. In that scenario villain has fold equity and is flipping when called by an overpair and has 30% equity versus a set.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on May 30, 2010, 19:55:36 PM
Villain was sat on about $80. He had been feltede once and re bought and re built. I was worried about his limp, as he had played hands very fast and strong up to now. So with just TPTK I feel I am either done with the hand or am commiting to it. I chose the latter, and hoped a re raise to $30 would see him fold, TBH I expected him to shove, which he did. So he has me covered, my thoughts are polarised either he has limped with KJ, 10 J or he was disguising a big over pair. I didn"t put him on a set, as I think with a middle to small pair in LP he defo would have raised pre. Any way with my re raise I am pretty much pot committed, and even though I didn"t want to throw away my winnings on what had been a marginal decision I called. He turned over AJ for the split. As regards starting with 50 bb, rather than 100, I always tend to do this, I know its a bit fishy, and thats what I hope my opposition think. Seems to be working okay recently though. ;)
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: Marty719 on June 01, 2010, 12:21:17 PM
1 - buy in full. Even if you are happy that it gives u a "fishy image," you still lose a mass amount of value in the long-term.
2 - Isolate limpers in position with hands like these. You do not really want to invite players in behind, and you are always happy to play swollen pots in position
3 - Shoving turn is good if you have seem villain over-commit with weak top-pair/draw hands.
4 - I quite like r/c on the flop against this villain with given reads.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: Marty719 on June 01, 2010, 12:23:51 PM
AJ suited. I"m either going to limp to hope to flop a flush draw at worst. Unless I hit a JJ flop or flush draw I"m folding (or flop a straight)
Also, this is not really using your position. AJ is a good hand 6 handed, esp against fishy villains who stack off light. I certainly do not need to flop big to continue as the aggresor in position.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: deanp27 on June 01, 2010, 12:50:16 PM
raise preflop - especially if this is 6max - limping hands like these usually leads to problems when you have a single pair multiway.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: noble1 on June 01, 2010, 17:42:48 PM
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: TheSnapper on June 01, 2010, 23:01:47 PM
Happy to get 130 bb"s in at any stage with one mid pair is insane. If he is really bad, we can stack him easily, but not in spots like this.
Theres a huge difference when the potsize is getting big because he wants it that way versus you leading the action and villain calling.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: noble1 on June 02, 2010, 02:08:06 AM
whats is villain repping? JJ 99 as mikey reads he likely raises pre likewise his over pairs , the turn 3 and villain does a slight overbet again? again what is villain repping that has mikey beat? , rainbow flop , a turn card which unlikely improves villain , if we fold TPTK to a super aggressive opponent with mikeys read on the turn imo would be a mistake ..
Quote
I chose the latter, and hoped a re raise to $30 would see him fold
i dont like this though mikey , for $15 more [getting nearly 4to1 pot odds] all villain will fold is his bluffs and maybe Jx if he can hand read [big if at 25c/50c] hence i prefer to call or raise all in the turn ..
Happy to get 130 bb"s in at any stage with one mid pair is insane. If he is really bad, we can stack him easily, but not in spots like this.
Theres a huge difference when the potsize is getting big because he wants it that way versus you leading the action and villain calling.
the correct play is all about identifying and understanding each opponent you play with. Mikey mentions that villain has a tendency to overbet pots , Mikey reads him to raise his better hands pre , meh imho playing tight weak post-flop against this style of player isn"t the best way to deal with/adjust to villain...
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: TheSnapper on June 02, 2010, 04:13:43 AM
the correct play is all about identifying and understanding each opponent you play with. Mikey mentions that villain has a tendency to overbet pots , Mikey reads him to raise his better hands pre , meh imho playing tight weak post-flop against this style of player isn"t the best way to deal with/adjust to villain...
Getting ai on the flop with top pair and a flush draw at a 50nl table, is not overplaying your hand.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on June 02, 2010, 08:59:29 AM
the correct play is all about identifying and understanding each opponent you play with. Mikey mentions that villain has a tendency to overbet pots , Mikey reads him to raise his better hands pre , meh imho playing tight weak post-flop against this style of player isn"t the best way to deal with/adjust to villain...
Getting ai on the flop with top pair and a flush draw at a 50nl table, is not overplaying your hand.
I agree Brendan, I don"t think it was over playing his hand, but it does go some way to assessing his playing style. Noble"s assessment of my reads are pretty spot on, and I agree that maybe a push on the turn would have been a better move.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: noble1 on June 02, 2010, 17:01:18 PM
I really don"t feel the spots are comparable at all.
A top high stakes player dropped down to $100nl to make a vid
Versus a competent $100 nl reg and likely a level 2 thinking player
imho there is a vast difference in standard at $100nl compared to $50nl
Quote from: Mikeyboy
I agree Brendan, I don"t think it was over playing his hand, but it does go some way to assessing his playing style. Noble"s assessment of my reads are pretty spot on, and I agree that maybe a push on the turn would have been a better move.
Ok, where to start, the overriding reason for the felting here 100% is based on the read of villain as a player who is likely to overvalue KJ,QJ,TJ, etc. and maybe even TT, they do exist and as noble1 rightly points out. Calling them down light is profitable, but high on variance!. That said, to commit to playing for 130 bb"s in an unraised pot (thats another issue) I"d need that read to be really really strong. If thats the case and you"re happy to embrace the variance and confident it won"t tilt you in the process. Getting the lot in the middle is fine.
There is a contradiction though, if we raise ai the flop or turn as suggested, what is our objective, value, protection, or bluff. There are a couple of possible results raising achieves....
He calls with worse, score for value
He calls and we"re beat, we valuetown ourselves
He folds hands he may have continued to Barrell, value O.G, but we do protect against the unlikely outdraw.
He folds hands that beat us, no chance
To summarise, the example previous hand given in op. does"nt back up the overvalues read on the villain very well and means little in isolation, and so, cast doubt as to the villains tendancies. You should have strong strong reads to adjust your stacking off standard this wide and if you did and there"s a happy ending, kudos to you Sir Mikey for the none to thinly veiled brag thread. ;D
Raise preflop, AJs is not a strong trapping hand 6 handed, don"t discourage fish with weak/air hands from building a pot, raising them is like a reminder not to spew.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: noble1 on June 04, 2010, 04:26:13 AM
I really don"t feel the spots are comparable at all.
A top high stakes player dropped down to $100nl to make a vid
Versus a competent $100 nl reg and likely a level 2 thinking player
imho there is a vast difference in standard at $100nl compared to $50nl
raising them is like a reminder not to spew.
i didnt post this to suggest the situations were comparable , i hoped that it would point out that being able to hand read at any level is a big advantage..[as per video a 2+2er std tag over calls in sb and then check raises rainbow flop - 663 trying to rep what ?] You point out that going all in on the flop is not good , i"m not to sure why u get the impression that any1 in the thread advocates pushing the flop? The turn yes , but based on if mikey thinks villain will call with worse... You mention snapper in your bullet points
Quote
but we do protect against the unlikely outdraw.
if there is a turn all in raise .. In mikeys situation villain overbets the turn so there is no need to protect he has bet it for us , mikey would have the option to protect if villain checked to him ..
Mikey the turn all in is high variance as snapper points out if your reads on villain hand ranges are way off the mark , in this situation the board texture [along with your reads of villain betting habits] gives him such a larger range of hands and bluffs that u are beating [plus a pot size of $28.50 on the turn] that if u go all in [approx $60] villain has to have hands that beat u approx 33%+ of the time in his range for the all in to be unprofitable , because very rarely does a 25c/50c player properly balance then especially against this villain would i think that his 2 barreling oop range can be/is easily 70%+ total bol##cks that u are beating .. I hope u see the merits of calling the turn as well as thinking that the shove was optimal...
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: TheSnapper on June 04, 2010, 14:09:02 PM
i didnt post this to suggest the situations were comparable , i hoped that it would point out that being able to hand read at any level is a big advantage..[as per video a 2+2er std tag over calls in sb and then check raises rainbow flop - 663 trying to rep what ?]
Fair enough and thanks I enjoyed the vid and admit, I did"nt pick up on the point you were making.
Quote from: noble1
You point out that going all in on the flop is not good , i"m not to sure why u get the impression that any1 in the thread advocates pushing the flop?
This is just plain pedantic, I did"nt say a flop ai was suggested but, maybe the sentence reads better this way.....
There is a contradiction though, if we raise ai the flop, or turn as suggested..
Also, in the op. Mikey says.....
Flop is J 9 3 rainbow, the blinds check and villain raises to $5.75, I think about re popping but just call,
Again we can be pedantic and say, thats not suggesting an ai raise, but can we ever fold if we do raise the flop? imho raise folding is total spew.
Quote from: noble1
The turn yes , but based on if mikey thinks villain will call with worse... You mention snapper in your bullet points
Quote
but we do protect against the unlikely outdraw.
if there is a turn all in raise .. In mikeys situation villain overbets the turn so there is no need to protect he has bet it for us , mikey would have the option to protect if villain checked to him ..
Mikey the turn all in is high variance as snapper points out if your reads on villain hand ranges are way off the mark , in this situation the board texture [along with your reads of villain betting habits] gives him such a larger range of hands and bluffs that u are beating [plus a pot size of $28.50 on the turn] that if u go all in [approx $60] villain has to have hands that beat u approx 33%+ of the time in his range for the all in to be unprofitable , because very rarely does a 25c/50c player properly balance then especially against this villain would i think that his 2 barreling oop range can be/is easily 70%+ total bol##cks that u are beating .. I hope u see the merits of calling the turn as well as thinking that the shove was optimal...
I don"t suggest betting/raising for protection, in fact, I don"t suggest betting/raising at all. I make the point that there is potential protection benefit to the betting/raising option.
On the turn, we are very much in a "way ahead way behind scenario", the sole reasoning for us getting here in a big pot with one pair has been based on a read that the villain is "overly aggressive". His range includes....
hands that crush us, overpair, two pair, trips, boats, Hands we crush, tpwk, second pair, random small pp"s that he"s overvalued. Total air
There is absolutely no reason to think villain will slow down, and from my experience, he"s more likely to slow down when he has a hand and will continue to fire with his air. Raising will dilute his range by folding out the air hands and possibly some weak made hands and this is not good for us. So, if we flat the turn $15 the pot is $43.50 and we have $44.75 behind, this gives the villain a fold equity carrot and any river bet will pot commit his weaker hands. The monies are all going in but versus his turn betting range not his turn bet call range.
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: noble1 on June 05, 2010, 02:26:16 AM
On the turn, we are very much in a "way ahead way behind scenario", the sole reasoning for us getting here in a big pot with one pair has been based on a read that the villain is "overly aggressive". His range includes....
hands that crush us, overpair, two pair, trips, boats, Hands we crush, tpwk, second pair, random small pp"s that he"s overvalued. Total air
There is absolutely no reason to think villain will slow down, and from my experience, he"s more likely to slow down when he has a hand and will continue to fire with his air. Raising will dilute his range by folding out the air hands and possibly some weak made hands and this is not good for us. So, if we flat the turn $15 the pot is $43.50 and we have $44.75 behind, this gives the villain a fold equity carrot and any river bet will pot commit his weaker hands. The monies are all going in but versus his turn betting range not his turn bet call range.
Although i dont agree with u in thinking that villain bets $5.75 into a $2 pot after 2 checks if he limped KK or J9 or even bet his set quite so much over pot after limping , lets have a look at the combos/numbers
AJ - 6 KJ - 8 QJ - 8 TJ - 8 J9 - 6 TT - 6 A9 - 9 JJ - 1 99 - 3 33 - 1 KK - 6 QQ - 6 KQ - 16 the only total air hand i"ve added QT - 16 34 - 8
villain hands in red calls turn all in only with over pairs,2pair,sets and trips and wins - 31 combos [we"ll ignore some of the re-draws that mikey has] 31x60 = 1860
mikey risks $60 to win $28.5 and only villain folds all hands that mikey beats 71x28.5= 2023.5
6x draws so a gain of $163.5
if we read that villain calls KJ out of Jx range , lets do some rounding up for villain , out of another 8 combos he wins 1 then the figures are - lose 32x60= 1920 win 63x28.50=1795.5 plus 7x88.5=619.5 = 2415
so a gain of $495
the turn all in imho is defintely +ev even more so if we add QT say to villains call range , i"ll let u guys do the numbers to give each all in a $ value :) i cant be arsed lol
Its a cash game and unlike in mtts where passing even marginal +ev plays is not mistake with all the survival stuff to be factored in etc etc , in cash every +ev edge should be taken... I"m not quite in agreement with the limping ranges we give villain as in my experience limping ranges in no limit ring games are way wider than no limit mtt limping ranges , meh for last 2 hours out of interest i"ve had 3 sites opened up across 3 monitors 8 tables each screen of 25c/50c and in around 3000 hands i"ve seen no limping big pairs etc or any big over betting flops with strong holdings multi-way , i"ve seen some spewy stuff though lol lol so anyone 1/2 decent thinking about moving up or down to 25c/50c then do so and may the force be with u .. :)
Title: Re: How would you have played this?
Post by: TheSnapper on June 05, 2010, 11:27:24 AM
Nice post and points well made Noble1. Just a quick reply before I head off for the weekend and I"ll get back to this on monday.
First thing I notice, you don"t include A3 in villains range? and of course 44-88,TT. We have a strong read that villain overvalues.
As far as the +ev thing, my point is not that raising the turn is -ev, but that flatting yields >ev over the two remaining streets.