Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: BOINGBLITZ on June 01, 2010, 22:00:07 PM
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Playing in the £100 event at Walsall on Monday night, I reached the Final Table and we were down to 9 players when this happened......
I am in BB with a stack of 150k with ave at about 180k I think, blinds at 5k/10k/1k ante.
UTG - a decent player flat calls with only 37k behind him. A guy with 57k shoves all-in and its folded around to the chip-leader in the SB who shoves his monster 850k stack all-in.
Me in the BB with J-J
Do you pass ??
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I can"t see passing here.
You have a "decent" player who is down to less than 5BB and limps...WTF? No decent player is letting their stack get down that far (unless there is some information you haven"t given us). I have to assume he"s getting his money in too.
The MP shove for 6BB is standard and the SB"s overshove looks like an isolation bet.
I"m getting it in here with an excellent chance that they have each others outs (assuming overcards) and a pretty good chance at a near treble up.
If I find I"m crushed...so be it, but I suspect, at worst, you have the second best hand out there and you are ahead of the CL"s range.
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i hate folding but unless CL is a maniac i may ladddderrrrrrr here
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Need more info on the monster stack guy. Has he done anything like this before and what with?
With no info at all then I"m folding and banking the info. He"s on your right which is great....
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Had no info on monster stack......FT had only just begun
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You haven"t mentioned whether we are in the money here but I can"t see, in either case (in or out) that folding here is anything other than -EV.
We"re here to win it and with our stack in relation to the blinds, are we likely to see better than JJ any time soon with this sort of stack-increasing potential?
I think not.
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We are ALL in the money £320 for 9th, £360 8th, £410 7th.
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I think that generally the "shove to isolate" range of the big stack is likely to contain a heck of a lot of hands that JJ beats, and if he has AK/AQ, he may well be short of outs given the other action. I would call, and expect to at least be playing for a significant side pot, if not the whole pot.
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I"m folding :-[
You"re behind to some imo & will watch 1/2 get KO"d.
Ladder up & outplay them later!
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Big stacks move is in the face of multiple action and knowing he has to show his cards. Unless he"s totally clueless, his range is strong enough that we are flipping at best.
Given that there is certainly some ICM bubble factor at play (if we had all stacks and payouts we could be more precise) this is a clear fold.
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Big stacks move is in the face of multiple action and knowing he has to show his cards. Unless he"s totally clueless, his range is strong enough that we are flipping at best.
I would suspect that his isolating range would be as wide as 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ..... 10 hands of which we crush 4, are crushed by 3, split with 1, and ahead of 2 (may be well ahead if outs are missing).
Folding for the ladder is ok, but calling with a view to taking a mahoosive pot and setting up for first place also has to be ok..? Surely there"s enough of his range that we are in good shape against, even if it is potentially only for the (large) side pot.
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I think that generally the "shove to isolate" range of the big stack is likely to contain a heck of a lot of hands that JJ beats, and if he has AK/AQ, he may well be short of outs given the other action. I would call, and expect to at least be playing for a significant side pot, if not the whole pot.
You are probably right - but "probably" is my problem here. Without any info it"s purely speculation and to me it"s a fold, bank the info, and try to get my money in first if poss. There"s plenty of times I"ve been told at a new table that I wouldn"t have made that call if I"d seen the guy play previously. Too late when I"m walking out the door!
Big stacks move is in the face of multiple action and knowing he has to show his cards. Unless he"s totally clueless, his range is strong enough that we are flipping at best.
Might see 88 99 TT too, but I agree with the point that he"d have to be clueless to show down anything other than a decent hand.
I expect you to tell us you folded Brian.
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My take on it was this.
The UTG limper HAS to have a monster, THAT can be the only reason he didn"t move all-in. And he is OBVIOUSLY calling.
The other all-in move is standard and I am probably ahead of him so against those two, I am prepared to call.
When the big-stack shoves, he either has a medium pair or a monster. Either way, I am in a dilemna as he can bust me.
If he busts all 3 of us, then I would finish 7th as I have more chips at the start of the hand. If I pass, I can ladder and pick a better spot to get my chips in.
I feel that if I call, I have little chance of a favourable outcome as unless the board is 10-high, I am likely behind.
Despite my lack of history against this big-stack, I decide that he ISN"T weak and that I will find a better spot.... and I pass.
The outcome of the hand follows next.
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The UTG limper......FOLDS !!!......he had A-J and left himself with just 37k !!
The short-stack shows A-10 and the monster stack, who I folded J-J to had..........Q-Q.
Board came K-7-6-4-Q and so instead of being out in 8th, I lived to fight another day.
I got down to 5-handed where we did a deal that gave us all £2k and we then played for the remaining £2090.
With 4 left I re-shoved into the (still) big-stack with........wait for it.......J-J and he called with A-2.......Flop is 2-A-4 and so J-J knocks me out anyway !!
Consolation was the deal as 4th wouldv"e paid £1260. I thought it was a massive error on the part of the guy who brokered it as he was chip-leader and never once mentioned doing a deal that related to chip-counts.
Appreciate the feedback guys, as always.
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My take on that was the limper would be disguising a monster, and had to ship his remaining 37K. Once the CL pushes, I would have thought about calling and then folded, as on the final table I like to get my chips in on my terms, and also I am about to ladder up 2 positions and still have a playable stack.
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blinds at 5k/10k/1k ante.
UTG - a decent player flat calls with only 37k behind him.
he might be decent but may need to polish up his short stack skills
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LOL BLATANT BRAG POST SO SAD
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The UTG limper......FOLDS !!!......he had A-J and left himself with just 37k !!
The short-stack shows A-10 and the monster stack, who I folded J-J to had..........Q-Q.
Board came K-7-6-4-Q and so instead of being out in 8th, I lived to fight another day.
I got down to 5-handed where we did a deal that gave us all £2k and we then played for the remaining £2090.
With 4 left I re-shoved into the (still) big-stack with........wait for it.......J-J and he called with A-2.......Flop is 2-A-4 and so J-J knocks me out anyway !!
Consolation was the deal as 4th wouldv"e paid £1260. I thought it was a massive error on the part of the guy who brokered it as he was chip-leader and never once mentioned doing a deal that related to chip-counts.
Appreciate the feedback guys, as always.
thing is, I knew this outcome of the hand, but still maintained my position as to have claimed differently would just be results oriented.
I still say calling is the +EV option.... OK, this time the big stack happened to have something near the top end of his range, but his range is substantially wide enough that JJ is generally in good shape.... and given the other action, he may also be short of overcard outs. The range and holding of the short stacks are irrelevant, other than the fact that they could be taking outs away from the big stack.
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thing is, I knew this outcome of the hand, but still maintained my position as to have claimed differently would just be results oriented.
I still say calling is the +EV option.... OK, this time the big stack happened to have something near the top end of his range, but his range is substantially wide enough that JJ is generally in good shape.... and given the other action, he may also be short of overcard outs. The range and holding of the short stacks are irrelevant, other than the fact that they could be taking outs away from the big stack.
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Not sure I agree with this^^^
My take would be that it is fair to assume the general table consensus is that the initial limper is "a decent player" (as was the opinion of the op). I would therefore be inclinded to think that the majority of the table put the initial limpers range as "probably a monster, but at the very least committed to a "gamble".
This is then followed by a push all-in.
After this action, I don"t think the big stack would be attempting to isolate... I would have to think that the big stack has woken up with a monster (of which qq and AK are the very bottom of his range)
JJ is now a small to middling pair and a very quick pass for me
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thing is, I knew this outcome of the hand, but still maintained my position as to have claimed differently would just be results oriented.
I still say calling is the +EV option.... OK, this time the big stack happened to have something near the top end of his range, but his range is substantially wide enough that JJ is generally in good shape.... and given the other action, he may also be short of overcard outs. The range and holding of the short stacks are irrelevant, other than the fact that they could be taking outs away from the big stack.
Not sure I agree with this^^^
My take would be that it is fair to assume the general table consensus is that the initial limper is "a decent player" (as was the opinion of the op). I would therefore be inclinded to think that the majority of the table put the initial limpers range as "probably a monster, but at the very least committed to a "gamble".
This is then followed by a push all-in.
After this action, I don"t think the big stack would be attempting to isolate... I would have to think that the big stack has woken up with a monster (of which qq and AK are the very bottom of his range)
JJ is now a small to middling pair and a very quick pass for me
so if you were a mahoosive stack in late position, and two micro-stacks get all in (assume the limper is putting the rest in).... and you look down at a small/medium pair, you wouldn"t fancy taking the gamble to knock out two players, knowing that losing the hand wouldn"t do you any material damage? The only way you can play in this spot though is to isolate as any kind of funky flat call invites the shove from behind.
I think that reading his range as only QQ/AK/KK/AA is way to restrictive.
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so if you were a mahoosive stack in late position, and two micro-stacks get all in (assume the limper is putting the rest in).... and you look down at a small/medium pair, you wouldn"t fancy taking the gamble to knock out two players, knowing that losing the hand wouldn"t do you any material damage? The only way you can play in this spot though is to isolate as any kind of funky flat call invites the shove from behind.
I think that reading his range as only QQ/AK/KK/AA is way to restrictive.
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No if the above case I would probably get involved (push)... I would also probably get involved if, with the action as descibed there wasnt a 150k stack sat in the big blind and still to act.
The initial limper is committed to the had (or should have been) and in effect by limping is implying a monster, therefore the initial shovers range is now smaller than if he was facing a "shove". As a monster stack, after this action, I am now not getting involved with anything other than a monster hand, especially as the 150k stack (big blind) is still to act (and they are only person who can do me any real damage).
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well i normally say call when everyone else says pass...
anyway i think calling with JJ is acceptable but just think with one massive stack and loads of shorties we can can use our stack to better effect, especially as we don"t have the chip monster acting after us. Better spots blah blah...especially when blinds are high against relative stack sizes we may be able push our preflop edge more
we are unlikely to be in great shape in this spot - we lose main pot but win vs CL and we have marginally more than we started with but shover has equal our stack, we could go out obviously to CL or we could win the hand but still be second to the CL.
sure they both may turn over underpairs or both have AK - but that is wishful thinking and ranges are usually tighter in the live pokerz, especially on final tables.
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also after winning this hand the CL must have had a real blow up to consider even chopping with the rest of you
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When we did the deal Dean, HE was NO LONGER the chip-leader (Though he did finish 2nd - they eventually chopped the remaining £2k ) If I had been in that situation and was offered a deal, I would"e said yes, but took stacks into account when doing so.
Having said that, though I haven"t played against him before, he was not only a very decent chap, but a VERY good player too.