Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: pokernuts07 on July 07, 2010, 23:33:49 PM
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Did I play this badly on after the flop? I thought I had the odds to call with up down straight draw. $280 into $680. He made it far to cheap on the turn and I hit the river. He did not like the call on the flop....thoughts please:
Table #29430509 - STT #17823018
Starting Hand #1383342240
Start time of hand: 07 Jul 2010 21:46:31
Last Hand #1383340468
Game Type: HOLD"EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $20/$40
Button is at seat 5
Seat 1: Faltop1 - $1,600
Seat 2: DerboyPKR - $1,360
Seat 3: pokernuts07 - $1,400
Seat 4: anaki47 - $1,200
Seat 5: gertvdijk - $3,440
Moving Button to seat 1
DerboyPKR posts small blind ($20)
pokernuts07 posts big blind ($40)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [Ks Qc] to pokernuts07
anaki47 calls $40
gertvdijk raises to $120
Faltop1 folds
DerboyPKR calls $120
pokernuts07 calls $120
anaki47 folds
Dealing Flop [2c Th Jc]
DerboyPKR bets $280
pokernuts07 calls $280
gertvdijk folds
Dealing Turn [6d]
DerboyPKR bets $120
pokernuts07 calls $120
Dealing River [9s]
DerboyPKR checks
pokernuts07 bets $600
DerboyPKR has requested more time
DerboyPKR is using the time bank
DerboyPKR: QK ?
DerboyPKR is thinking.
DerboyPKR has 3 seconds remaining in the time bank
DerboyPKR calls $600
pokernuts07 shows [Ks Qc]
pokernuts07 has Straight, King high
DerboyPKR shows [As Td]
DerboyPKR has One Pair: 10s
pokernuts07 wins $2,400 with: Straight, King high
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Standard, standard and standard some more, he is an idiot just upset you outdrew him
Nothing more to say here
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Standard, standard and standard some more, he is an idiot just upset you outdrew him
Nothing more to say here
Great, that"s what I thought but just wanted to check.
Thanks for reply.
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pokernuts as long as u were thinking about future streets, yours/opponent chip stacks and what your opponent/s was going to do later [reads], then fine if u had a plan... if not , then u played it very weak... STD? yes std weak ...
Cmon APAT regs , get writing/typing and help pokernut out here please... do u think this is std?
gg
noble
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I agree villian bet small on the turn. But it"s your 280 to win 960. 3/1 on 1 street to come should still be enough to make you fold your straight draw. That said I"d gave called also.
Even if you hit your overcard, you dont know if one pair is good.
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I agree villian bet small on the turn. But it"s your 280 to win 960. 3/1 on 1 street to come should still be enough to make you fold your straight draw. That said I"d gave called also.
Even if you hit your overcard, you dont know if one pair is good.
folding the flop would be ridiculous with OESD and two overs. You played it fine because of opponents terrible/weak betsizing but against some opponents i would probably just raise/get it in on flop with stacks this shallow.
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Meh - I jam flop the vast majority of the time w/ these stack sizes.
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I agree villian bet small on the turn. But it"s your 280 to win 960. 3/1 on 1 street to come should still be enough to make you fold your straight draw. That said I"d gave called also.
Even if you hit your overcard, you dont know if one pair is good.
folding the flop would be ridiculous with OESD and two overs. You played it fine because of opponents terrible/weak betsizing but against some opponents i would probably just raise/get it in on flop with stacks this shallow.
This.
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First off, I would never have flat called here preflop in a STT SNG when stacked with just 35xBB. With one raise in front I would snap fold KQ. With one raise and two calls in front, I would consider shoving to squeeze.
As played though, when you catch an open-ender plus two overs, flat calling is so spewy.... if you miss turn and river, you"ve just wasted half your stack, and have very little FE left. Jam the flop and hope to take it down there and then - if called, you have several outs. You will either be out, or healthily stacked - much better than sitting on a micro stack and probably having to shove the rest in a much worse spot than this.
In a STT SNG - imo, Fold KQ pre in an opened pot - preserve chips for the shoving stage.
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pokernuts as long as u were thinking about future streets, yours/opponent chip stacks and what your opponent/s was going to do later [reads], then fine if u had a plan... if not , then u played it very weak... STD? yes std weak ...
Cmon APAT regs , get writing/typing and help pokernut out here please... do u think this is std?
gg
noble
PM sent
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First off, I would never have flat called here preflop in a STT SNG when stacked with just 35xBB. With one raise in front I would snap fold KQ. With one raise and two calls in front, I would consider shoving to squeeze.
As played though, when you catch an open-ender plus two overs, flat calling is so spewy.... if you miss turn and river, you"ve just wasted half your stack, and have very little FE left. Jam the flop and hope to take it down there and then - if called, you have several outs. You will either be out, or healthily stacked - much better than sitting on a micro stack and probably having to shove the rest in a much worse spot than this.
In a STT SNG - imo, Fold KQ pre in an opened pot - preserve chips for the shoving stage.
KQ IS THE NUTS!!!
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pokernuts as long as u were thinking about future streets, yours/opponent chip stacks and what your opponent/s was going to do later [reads], then fine if u had a plan... if not , then u played it very weak... STD? yes std weak ...
Cmon APAT regs , get writing/typing and help pokernut out here please... do u think this is std?
gg
noble
PM sent
Out of interest, why take the discussion to a PM? surely the whole idea of the forum academy section is to keep the discussed thread open for all?
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KQ IS THE NUTS!!!
KQ is the 26th best starting hand
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First off, I would never have flat called here preflop in a STT SNG when stacked with just 35xBB. With one raise in front I would snap fold KQ. With one raise and two calls in front, I would consider shoving to squeeze.
As played though, when you catch an open-ender plus two overs, flat calling is so spewy.... if you miss turn and river, you"ve just wasted half your stack, and have very little FE left. Jam the flop and hope to take it down there and then - if called, you have several outs. You will either be out, or healthily stacked - much better than sitting on a micro stack and probably having to shove the rest in a much worse spot than this.
In a STT SNG - imo, Fold KQ pre in an opened pot - preserve chips for the shoving stage.
Thanks Steve. Hmmm....not sure I agree/good enough to fold KQ on a 6 seater SNG. Maybe a squeeze play would have been better than a call but never folding.
Agree now that the flat call on the flop is weak and tbh not my normal play at all, would normally shove but I think I was tilting a bit from not hitting previous draws and decided to call as the odds looked good. Saying that, the odds is where I do struggle and probably didn"t take into account that I might not have seen 2 cards.
Another point re stack sizes. Can we really take this into account at this stage - early on and most are all on about 1500? Can understand if someone was heavily stacked or short but as we were about the same and you only start with 1500 each.
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pokernuts as long as u were thinking about future streets, yours/opponent chip stacks and what your opponent/s was going to do later [reads], then fine if u had a plan... if not , then u played it very weak... STD? yes std weak ...
Cmon APAT regs , get writing/typing and help pokernut out here please... do u think this is std?
gg
noble
PM sent
Out of interest, why take the discussion to a PM? surely the whole idea of the forum academy section is to keep the discussed thread open for all?
Was replying to a PM sent by noble in addition to his reply on this thread - it was just more detailed that"s all.
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Another point re stack sizes. Can we really take this into account at this stage - early on and most are all on about 1500? Can understand if someone was heavily stacked or short but as we were about the same and you only start with 1500 each.
Stack size is everything!! don"t consider stack size in relation to other players though, although this is of course a factor in some decisions.... you should consider stack size in relation to the BB.... and the fact is that you have only 35xBB and are verging on short. The very nature of these STTs is that everyone is short from the start.
When playing short stacked, flat calling is generally the worst possible option in most scenarios. At 35xBB in a STT, imo your only viable options are fold or raise (and it"s not far away from being fold or shove)
Consider playing these SNG STTs (especially turbos) without touching the call button (other than calling a shove of course) - in a STT SNG if a hand is good enough to call with, it should be good enough to raise with..... and if not, just fold. These games are all about having enough chips at the shove/fold stage to retain a good degree of fold equity..... don"t think of STT SNGs in the same way as you would think of cash or normal tournament poker - completely different animal.
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Another point re stack sizes. Can we really take this into account at this stage - early on and most are all on about 1500? Can understand if someone was heavily stacked or short but as we were about the same and you only start with 1500 each.
Stack size is everything!! don"t consider stack size in relation to other players though, although this is of course a factor in some decisions.... you should consider stack size in relation to the BB.... and the fact is that you have only 35xBB and are verging on short. The very nature of these STTs is that everyone is short from the start.
When playing short stacked, flat calling is generally the worst possible option in most scenarios. At 35xBB in a STT, imo your only viable options are fold or raise (and it"s not far away from being fold or shove)
Consider playing these SNG STTs (especially turbos) without touching the call button (other than calling a shove of course) - in a STT SNG if a hand is good enough to call with, it should be good enough to raise with..... and if not, just fold. These games are all about having enough chips at the shove/fold stage to retain a good degree of fold equity..... don"t think of STT SNGs in the same way as you would think of cash or normal tournament poker - completely different animal.
Some interesting points! These SNGS are really the only poker I play online at the moment and have built most of my BR from them so think my game is better geared to this format than MTT"s. I do play them but really struggling at the moment and my track record is not good. Don"t touch cash.
SNGS are my baby though, especially 6 handed on PKR! Like I said I would normally shove the flop there but tilting and needed some advice on the call on the flop/odds etc.....
Cheers
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great overall advice steve. I agree in that I would fold preflop here. Out of interest, how wwould others have played this in a tourney? I would have flat called from the BB also in that situation and either called or raised the flop
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I dont play many 6 man STTs, but from my full ring background this is a standard fold preflop. There are not many flops that help you out here and you may be dominated with flops that hit. Chip preservation is the order of the day in STTs.
Given this is a 6 max STT, then squeezing here may be the superior play but calling and playing the hand OOP is my last option here.
As played, I dont like the call on the flop, your overs may not be outs so you are not really getting the odds here, but then again I hate playing any drawing hand in STTs as the implied odds rarely make it profitable. I think I go fold > CRAI > call here.
As played on the flop the call on the turn is fine as its only 120 into a 1080 pot and given that bet size, K hi might be good now.
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Your line in the hand would have been fine on all streets if this was a deeper stacked MTT, but I think the overall mistake is that you are trying to play poker here when this is not poker, but an STT (just play top 5% early levels then push bot at later levels)
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prolly call HU in position but less keen multiway unless soooooted
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I think I go fold > CRAI > call here.
I actually think I go really different to this. I think i go:
crai>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call>fold
If we call pre, folding this flop shouldn"t really be in our agenda.
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If we call pre, folding this flop shouldn"t really be in our agenda.
under the "dont compound one mistake with another" agenda. I"d agree normally, but feel that there isn"t enough FE here as well as the overs possibly not being outs, so still a fold for me
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I agree villian bet small on the turn. But it"s your 280 to win 960. 3/1 on 1 street to come should still be enough to make you fold your straight draw. That said I"d gave called also.
Even if you hit your overcard, you dont know if one pair is good.
folding the flop would be ridiculous with OESD and two overs. You played it fine because of opponents terrible/weak betsizing but against some opponents i would probably just raise/get it in on flop with stacks this shallow.
Forget what I said. Made a complete balls of the pot size
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If we call pre, folding this flop shouldn"t really be in our agenda.
under the "dont compound one mistake with another" agenda. I"d agree normally, but feel that there isn"t enough FE here as well as the overs possibly not being outs, so still a fold for me
I understand what u mean, but at this stage there is 680 in the pot and we have only have 1280 behind. There are def reasons for both folding and shoving, but I think shoving pros are pretty strong:
-It is a 6max sng which means we only really shoot for 1st in a top heavy pay structure.
-We can have as many as 14 outs, and almost always have a minimum of 8.
-There is also the chance we have the best hand against a weaker draw.
-I also think we def have some f/e and dnt think villain goes b/c all the time w/ 2nd pair type hands.
-1 more massively important point............we always have the Qc!!!
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I"m swayed, and mainly due to this
-It is a 6max sng which means we only really shoot for 1st in a top heavy pay structure.
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I"m swayed, and mainly due to this
-It is a 6max sng which means we only really shoot for 1st in a top heavy pay structure.
I"m not. Still think preflop fold>shove>raise>call
whilst we might think "It is a 6max sng which means we only really shoot for 1st in a top heavy pay structure", any decent players out there will think the same, and realise that there Ax could well be good against a very obvious squeeze play, and make the call leaving us needing to hit in a 40/60 spot. Would much prefer to fold, preserve chips, and look to find stronger spots.
Because of the above, I would prefer to shove A9/AT/AJ type hands rather than KQ.... we are highly likely to be called, and usually by a raggy Ace that is ahead.
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No arguments from me about fold>shove>raise>call being a good line for p/f - esp w/ utg limper.
-It is a 6max sng which means we only really shoot for 1st in a top heavy pay structure.
Was not an argument to call pre, it was an arguement that on the flop shove>>call>fold
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Was not an argument to call pre, it was an arguement that on the flop shove>>call>fold
OK agree with that.....
.....but I would never have seen the flop :)
(actually, on the flop, shove>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call, and fold doesn"t exist)
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KQ IS THE NUTS!!!
KQ is the 26th best starting hand
your good
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Was not an argument to call pre, it was an arguement that on the flop shove>>call>fold
OK agree with that.....
.....but I would never have seen the flop :) agree
(actually, on the flop, shove>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call, and fold doesn"t exist)
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KQ IS THE NUTS!!!
KQ is the 26th best starting hand
your good
whats the 25th
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My reply was based on the way the hand was played and the villains reaction to the way it was played. You see all the time when someones bet sizing is terrible then they get upset when they are outdrawn. Thing is they never learn, which is good.
Can see what you are getting at Steve, i would probably look towards a fold this early in a sit n go, but then again i dont play 6max either, i tend to play 2 table sit n go"s, so not exactly qualified to say. As regards to jamming the flop, you can obv, but i think an important factor that nobody has asked is what the buy in was? if it is a low level buy in then i would be less inclined because they call so weak at that kind of level (unaware of sit n go strategy). I think that shows in the fact he called the river with a pair of tens, what was he beating really? I think once called pre flop that you just can"t fold the hand, esp with the terrible turn bet.
What Noble said is really important, you need to have plans in place for every eventuality, not just calling to hit cards.