Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: pokerpops on July 19, 2010, 11:20:39 AM
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£50 at DTD - 255 runners 10,000 starting stack
I"ve built a decent stack through the first four levels without really getting any cards to speak of. The one time I had KK and made a standard raise from cut-off in an unopened pot the button and the blinds both folded >:(
I"ve been pretty active and the two players to my left have been pretty passive as have the two to my right. Rarely been to showdown but I"d built a stack of c14,500 by the time this hand occurred in the third level
Blinds are 75/150
Button has 3,750 - I"ve picked up a fair few chips from him - he"s call/folded a lot and dribbled his stack away generally
I have c14,500
BB has c6,000
I"m in the Small blind with jc 9d and the button open limps. I opt to complete with a view to calling/raising if the BB gets awkward, but i think maybe it"s time to just see a flop and play from there.
Flop is qh jd 9s
I lead for 300
BB calls
Button shoves for 3,600
BB shows every sign that he now regrets having put in the 300 to call and has very obviously hit the "fold in turn" button.
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I take it from the lack of texts this weekend Dave this didnt go well? :-\
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Tell you al about it tomorrow night - suffice to say that I have spots to discuss from the £50, and the £30, and the 50p/£1 cash table... >:(
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do anything but fold
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Pause briefly before shoving.
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Smells like A 10 to me.
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I guess an equity calc would be useful, but given this action, and the type of player we know this guy to be (straightforward) I would put him on a made straight/straight draw/2 pair/top pair/some weird trappy play with AA/KK - the latter seems unlikely if we think he"s straightforward. Sets are unlikely so I wouldnt put this in his range. Alot here would be tell and read dependent on this particular player. It "feels" like your 2 pair is beat here, or racing, but the maths may dictate a shove
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I"m in the Small blind with jc 9d and the button open limps. I opt to complete with a view to calling/raising if the BB gets awkward, but i think maybe it"s time to just see a flop and play from there.
Can you explain a bit more about the thought process here please? what were your intentions if BB raised?
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I"m in the Small blind with jc 9d and the button open limps. I opt to complete with a view to calling/raising if the BB gets awkward, but i think maybe it"s time to just see a flop and play from there.
Can you explain a bit more about the thought process here please? what were your intentions if BB raised?
he"s raised pretty rarely and only in pots where I"d folded, but I suppose it"s possible that he might and I may have to think about it.
I need a bit more info before I answer the hypothetical question though.
How much are you thinking he might raise?
Is the button calling?
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Having asked the question in the OP, and given your following notes that things didn"t go well generally, I suspect you suffered some form of bad beat in this hand?
I think the correct answer to the question is to shove to remove the BB and isolate the Button..... you probably did this and he either showed a flopped straight, or an AQ type hand that went on to counterfeit yout two pair?
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Having asked the question in the OP, and given your following notes that things didn"t go well generally, I suspect you suffered some form of bad beat in this hand?
I think the correct answer to the question is to shove to remove the BB and isolate the Button..... you probably did this and he either showed a flopped straight, or an AQ type hand that went on to counterfeit yout two pair?
Seems the consensus thus far is to do as I did - I shoved over the top, BB folded and button showed K 10 for the flopped straight.
Not a disaster, but it was a setback which I would have preferred to avoid.
Is this just the perils of completing in the SB with a marginal hand? Can we fold pre given that we"re getting 5-1 on the call with a pretty passive BB?
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I"d be calling from the SB here most/all of the time. Think its fine. I"d also shove here. Even if you lost, which I imagine you did, you have more then a playable stack
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Don"t think I can fold but I"d imagine button has a hand like flopped straight with a weak limp with K 10 or 8 10 suited or has played a pocket pair passively pre flop for a set
I don"t think I"m folding and I think a call is fine as it takes a massive hand for the BB to be able to call
I don"t understand the buttons shove if he does have a flopped straight as any one pair type hand is gonna fold. If I was button I"d have flattes if I have a hand that beats 2 pair and the raise the turn.
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£50 at DTD - 255 runners 10,000 starting stack
I"ve built a decent stack through the first four levels without really getting any cards to speak of. The one time I had KK and made a standard raise from cut-off in an unopened pot the button and the blinds both folded >:(
I"ve been pretty active and the two players to my left have been pretty passive as have the two to my right. Rarely been to showdown but I"d built a stack of c14,500 by the time this hand occurred in the third level
Blinds are 75/150
Button has 3,750 - I"ve picked up a fair few chips from him - he"s call/folded a lot and dribbled his stack away generally
I have c14,500
BB has c6,000
I"m in the Small blind with jc 9d and the button open limps. I opt to complete with a view to calling/raising if the BB gets awkward, but i think maybe it"s time to just see a flop and play from there.
Flop is qh jd 9s
I lead for 300
BB calls
Button shoves for 3,600
BB shows every sign that he now regrets having put in the 300 to call and has very obviously hit the "fold in turn" button.
Can you explain a bit more about the thought process here please? what were your intentions if BB raised?
Like eck this to me seems odd as to why?
With your reads i can find a fold as played , i would not fold say if they were aggressive types with draws or top pair etc ..
I say fold because of the texture, cos pretty much the only hand in his range for a passive type here is QT, and against that u are 50/50 roughly, everything else u are behind , and u hold the blockers for JT 9T which he might also overshove with..
BB shows every sign that he now regrets having put in the 300 to call and has very obviously hit the "fold in turn"
when ur deciding to flat or raise when the button shoves my logic if i was to go with 2pair here, would be to flat and give the bb the opportunity to spazz off with a ten draw or make a mistake by just calling, if u shove u make it to easy for him to fold imho and only call with hands that beat u..
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Easy fold against this player. You"ve given us the history but then ignored it when it came to the decision. Against an active player it"s an easy call, but when someone who has been rolling over for you all day suddenly wants to get really frisky, why do you think that is? I"d have thought QJ or Q9 were most likely, though KQ, AQ or QT were possible. Even if you might be winning, just let them have that one and carry on helping yourself to their chips for the next x hands until they get something good again. Why undo all your previous good work? You might bump up your chips but you will probably take most of those chips anyway over the coming hands with less risk.
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add to my previous reply above...
if we assume the button isn"t a complete idiot , look at it from his perspective if he has top 2pair or a made straight on this texture flop.You lead out and bb calls, what do you think he puts u and the bb on and with his stack size how do u think he"d continue?
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add to my previous reply above...
if we assume the button isn"t a complete idiot , look at it from his perspective if he has top 2pair or a made straight on this texture flop.You lead out and bb calls, what do you think he puts u and the bb on and with his stack size how do u think he"d continue?
This bit about "what does he put me on" is the tricky bit for me. I don"t think my image is too shabby - I folded trip jacks on the river in an earlier hand to a player who had raised the turn and led out for about half the pot on the river (he had turned the house having flopped two pair after he called utg with J8 off). Yes, I"ve been active, but I haven"t shown any real signs of utter recklessness or of crazy aggression.
So what does he put me on that is scary for his hand?
Trips? - He must know I"d have raised pre with 99/JJ/QQ so we can ignore that, can"t we?
Two pair? - which leaves me 4 outs and him as a big favourite
The K 10 to split the pot? Possible, but unlikely
A/8 10 ? possible, and maybe the only hands that makes his move make sense in a chip accrual way
or a bare 10 and fear of splitting the pot if one of the remaining 3 Ks appears?
Is shoving in his position a good move these days ? (obviously it as for him on this occasion...)
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I"m in the Small blind with jc 9d and the button open limps. I opt to complete with a view to calling/raising if the BB gets awkward, but i think maybe it"s time to just see a flop and play from there.
Can you explain a bit more about the thought process here please? what were your intentions if BB raised?
he"s raised pretty rarely and only in pots where I"d folded, but I suppose it"s possible that he might and I may have to think about it.
I need a bit more info before I answer the hypothetical question though.
How much are you thinking he might raise?
Is the button calling?
Your statement suggests you are likely to either call or raise any bet the BB would make. I just thought it a bit odd with a weak hand oop to the BB who if I am correct has been playing fairly tight that we would want to get involved unless they are always folding when they miss etc. Think most mistakes are normally made pre-flop: don"t mind the make up as the hand can flop okay but if we do hit it is also going to smack a load of other hands people like to limp with so you would need to be cautious which is another reason to pass and make life easier etc. Opinion split on this with me and the mole he is making up 100% of the time as he loves the odds etc but i just see the limping in behind hoping to hit as spewy as you are likely passing the majority of flops.
As played I get them in here as I am not giving him any credit if he is open limping the button tbh.
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amazing how often people get into trouble by calling, instead of raising/folding. It might only be 150 into a pot of 750 preflop, and 6/1 sounds like a great deal.... but it just set up an avoidable car crash.
either punish the weak limp by the button preflop, or just stay out of the way and don"t waste chips.
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calling is not the greatest preflop, but I"d probably have a stab with this too. (but that"s because I"m a fish)
As played, you have flopped the earth, so iso shove
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add to my previous reply above...
if we assume the button isn"t a complete idiot , look at it from his perspective if he has top 2pair or a made straight on this texture flop.You lead out and bb calls, what do you think he puts u and the bb on and with his stack size how do u think he"d continue?
This bit about "what does he put me on" is the tricky bit for me. I don"t think my image is too shabby - I folded trip jacks on the river in an earlier hand to a player who had raised the turn and led out for about half the pot on the river (he had turned the house having flopped two pair after he called utg with J8 off). Yes, I"ve been active, but I haven"t shown any real signs of utter recklessness or of crazy aggression.
So what does he put me on that is scary for his hand?
Trips? - He must know I"d have raised pre with 99/JJ/QQ so we can ignore that, can"t we?
Two pair? - which leaves me 4 outs and him as a big favourite
The K 10 to split the pot? Possible, but unlikely
A/8 10 ? possible, and maybe the only hands that makes his move make sense in a chip accrual way
or a bare 10 and fear of splitting the pot if one of the remaining 3 Ks appears?
Is shoving in his position a good move these days ? (obviously it as for him on this occasion...)
be it fear on villains part that u or the bb may have a ten, meh who knows.. What i do know is that the amount of times u see this whilst playing in low buy in mtts is pretty often lol , it is rife like a disease but they do it prehaps one to many times, u see it in high buy ins from tricky buggers to.. Is it the kill phil influence/super system etc or do they see online some of these moves getting paid off pre and post but dont understand the theory behind it all, mostly i see the all in shover turning over the nuts or 2nd 3rd nuts , sometimes its total air/anything from a creative tricky/maniac, on ocasions its a draw but mainly its a strong hand, i guess players see this move getting paid off so they try it out without understanding why and who to do it against. It spazzes some players out , the nits luvvvv it :) or Mr Tight ABC who will ridicule the villain and lecture them on how bad they are, use it yourself with reads of course :)... its fun ;D
http://www.cardplayer.com/cardplayer-magazines/65752-phil-ivey-22-14/articles/18560-all-in-overbets-when-acting-first
http://www.pkr.com/en/raise-your-game/multi-table-tournaments/mtt35/
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/Overbetting-Brandon-Adams-618.htm
http://blackbeltpoker.com/articles/read/Strategy-Overbetting
http://www.pkr.com/en/raise-your-game/multi-table-tournaments/mtt18-1of3/
i can churn out loads of articles on overbetting and shoving , read all the above David and imho keep on questioning why?
Big bet poker is a game of options and creativity. Whereas fixed limit players generally have only two or three options at any given decision point (check/bet or raise/call/fold), big bet players often have the option of betting anywhere from 1BB to the size of the pot or the effective stacks. Yet despite the myriad options available, most players tend to restrict themselves to betting between 2/3 pot and full pot.
This is not without good reason. Such moderately sized bets offer a compelling risk/reward ratio: they build the pot for big hands, deny proper odds to all but the best draws, and avoid putting too much of your stack at risk.
However, there are drawbacks to such a narrow betting strategy. The ability to vary bet sizes is one of the defining characteristics of no-limit and pot-limit games. Failing to take full advantage of it can only hurt you in the long run. Moreover, most of your opponents will be accustomed to responding to "big-but-not-too-big" bets. It is what they do, it is what most of their opponents do, and through trial and error they've improved their decision-making when faced with such bets.
Introducing underbetting and overbetting into your game can both expand your ability to think more deeply about a poker hand and confound your opponents, forcing them to muddle through a new situation.
There are good reasons why these aren't often-used plays, but if you never use them, you are missing out on opportunities to confound your opponents and find value in places where no one else is looking.
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Is anyone going to post up anything other than coolers or results orientated pap
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Is anyone going to post up anything other than coolers or results orientated pap
why dont u read the post and reply with something constructive? With his reads George, the board texture , his blockers and the action after he leads, do u really think that this is a cooler u cant get away from or even figure out what villain is shoving George?
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Is anyone going to post up anything other than coolers or results orientated pap
why dont u read the post and reply with something constructive? With his reads George, the board texture , his blockers and the action after he leads, do u really think that this is a cooler u cant get away from or even figure out what villain is shoving George?
Most of the hands on here are bad beats or coolers. Admittedly this one could have played out differently but in most cases villian doesnt jam the nuts so you probably have to get it in here
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Is anyone going to post up anything other than coolers or results orientated pap
why dont u read the post and reply with something constructive? With his reads George, the board texture , his blockers and the action after he leads, do u really think that this is a cooler u cant get away from or even figure out what villain is shoving George?
Most of the hands on here are bad beats or coolers. Admittedly this one could have played out differently but in most cases villian doesnt jam the nuts so you probably have to get it in here
I"ve got one. I"ll post it now.