Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: LongshanksED on September 19, 2010, 14:05:42 PM
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so 5k starting stack. 25/50 blinds. 8 handed.
UTG makes it 125. UTG is a professional who just came back from EPT snowfest and is basically out with his friends for the night and is known to lark about with all kinds of floppable hands, suited connectors and one gappers etc
UTG+1 is a decent player and likes to 3 bet light in position also with suited connecters (for local casino standards) and makes it 300
button who is never 4 betting light but can overplay small/medium pairs and AK/AQ makes it 800
were on BB with KK. whats the play? call or raise? if raise then how much?
my thoughts are obviously raise but i dont want to just shove and get everyone to fold but i want to rais in order to get at least one call or a shove from an overzealous ace or lower pair
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think you answered your own question with your reads. You are ahead of 4 bettor"s range so ship your 100 bigs in.
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Yea shipping prob looks weaker than making it ~2200.
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dont think shipping is best move. Folds out trashy hands thats all.
Reraise to 2000. If you just flat call the 800 likely you"ll be playing a 4 way pot given the other guys" tendencies.
cbet/shove any flop that doesnt contain an ace
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What do u think our perceived range is for making it 2k?
What do u think our perceived range is fod shoving?
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Shove. Get called by AA. Bink the king.
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I can"t win with KK at the moment, doesn"t matter what calls me, I loose ..... so in that respect FOLD
duh... nah I"m still playing them, probably reraise about 2200.
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I"m not raising 2K+ when I"m starting with 5K plus the ship all in looks much weaker than the raise to 2K in my opinion and more likely to get called with weaker hands. Ship it all in IMO.
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Absolutely have to ship....
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gonna wait for a few more replies until i finish of the hand - and this aint no bad beat script - just interested in who would raise and how much and who would open shove
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Raise to 2500, and shove any flop that doesn"t include an Ace. If you get re popped, which would surely be a push, you can then re evaluate. Question asked and answered, but can you lay your Kings down, don"t think I could.
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Shove. Get called by AA. Bink the king.
You still 100% on this Dan?
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just shove
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All in - but that"s just me
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Raise to 2500, and shove any flop that doesn"t include an Ace. If you get re popped, which would surely be a push, you can then re evaluate. Question asked and answered, but can you lay your Kings down, don"t think I could.
4B folding KK for 50% of our stack wud be the worst thing of all time.
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Surely a raise to 2-2.5K is getting us pot committed, so we aren"t folding are we? An ace high flop kills the action against QQ,JJ hands that you would otherwise stack. You wouldn"t be folding on a Q or J hi flop where you could already be outdrawn so why the fold on a A hi flop?? Or better still...just shove
If we run into Aces, we"ve been coolered. Coolers, like bad beats, happen in poker and should be unavoidable. If we try and take lines that try and avoid coolers then we are not getting max value out of our hands and probably losing long term.
If the stacks were deeper and the clock slower then a more cautious line is acceptable, but not here
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Shove it in, simplez.
With these stack sizes, calling is just bad, raising pre then folding the flop is awful - so your stack just has to go in at some point... may as well be preflop to maximize value from underpairs.
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4B folding KK for 50% of our stack wud be the worst thing of all time.
sorry marty just nit picking, u mean 5bet? :-X
button who is never 4 betting light but can overplay small/medium pairs and AK/AQ makes it 800
a little bit contradictory that shanks.. as per reads i"m in the ship it camp...
somrthing to get u thinking shanks :) - http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=bluff_magazine&id=2817110
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Raise to 2500, and shove any flop that doesn"t include an Ace. If you get re popped, which would surely be a push, you can then re evaluate. Question asked and answered, but can you lay your Kings down, don"t think I could.
4B folding KK for 50% of our stack wud be the worst thing of all time.
TBH it depends what type and the quality of the tournament, if this was a typical pub league ( in which I play quite regularly) I would back myself to play my way back with 50% of my starting stack, from this early in the piece. But as I said I don"t think I could lay "em down.
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splash your chips all over the table with excitement
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The main worry is the button. I would reraise to 2000ish, call any preflop reraise from the button (assuming its an all in).
Shoving now however might just get someone (likely the button) to lay down hands like JJ-88/AQ which would be bad. If he repops you with AA preflop and you call its the same situation as shoving all in anyway. i.e. the outcome is the same.
If you repop to 2000 and assuming the btn calls, you can happily shove any flop not containing an ace.
If it does contain an ace you can re-evaluate. If you check and he checks behind, I"ll probably shove the turn. If you check, he bets, then depending on reads/tells/bet size fold equity etc you could check raise all in etc etc.
Most flops won"t contain an ace, the 15% odd time they do (noble correct that % if its wrong) its not necessarily a check-fold situation, so all is not lost either.
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Shoz - you"re not considering the value you will miss from hands like QQ/JJ that will almost always call you shove preflop.... but will likely fold if you shove a flop with an overcard on.
shoving pre ensures you get maximum value against underpairs and AK
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ok I see what you are saying there. Your saying by shoving preflop you get someone to put all their money in now with jj/qq rather then finding a way out by folding on a ace high/king high flop.
I take your point, but that would be read dependent aswell. Depending on the event/reads/buy in/stage of tourney etc, if I was the button I"d be thinking...
"I"ve just repopped someone who just 3bet an UTG raiser, and I"ve then been reshoved all in by someone from the small blind. I could conceivably fold QQ here and definitely JJ".
I think if the button gets shoved on JJ becomes a pretty easy fold. What am I saying? I dont really know! there"s no standard way to play this imho. I think its got to be player/read dependent. Seen as I"m 5betting (i think) a tight buttn player who"s just 4 bet I dont think he"ll ever show up with less than QQ so we"ll be "getting it in" one way or another.
It becomes a player dependent issue. Is he someone who gets scared by overcards? Will he never let go of a premium pair? If the answer to second question is yes, then easy preflop shove all in.
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u think shoving loses value from 88-jj? What do u think these hands do wen u make it 2k? U know how strong making it 2k looks?
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i was really wondering about the shove - i thought if i shoved, then any pair >1010 would fold except the 4 bettor who would snap call with a pair like QQ > 77 or AK/AQ
im also not raising to fold any flop if i get it heads up with one player, if i make it 2k im pretty much calling the final 3k on any flop. and if they have aces or a raggy/mid ace and hits then so be it, coolered to an extent
i actually made it 2.5k which i thought would not only make me pot commited to a shove from one, its putting the others to a tough decision. their shove or fold, yet if its a shove then call before action is back to me i can make a real tough decision and probably make a bad fold
thoughts on my 2.5k bet? bad, spewy?
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also after my 2.5k raise its folded to the 4 bettor who shoved which i know im already calling
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all in.
defo
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it all worked out "correctly" then - if he had aces so be it.
People say folding kings in any spot preflop is bad in the long term. I dont think I"ve ever folded kings preflop. However, I"m certain I saw Ram Vaswani do just that in the WSOPE 2009 main event on TV coverage. The other guy had aces. From memory I think the villain raised with aces, ram 3 bet, villain 4 bet, ram 5 bet and villain shoved and ram folded. Something along those lines anyway. Perhaps he thought that folding KK is overall -EV but given the situation of a wsope bracelet, down to the last 20 or so players, maybe reads and all he was sure the guy had aces and didnt want to bust at this stage.
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ive laid them down once - it was the bubble to a live event with virign poker - 2 players all in with my KK in the SB - 3 paid and 4 left when short went all in utg and button re shoved who had 1 BB more. i had them both covered but thought the best move was to fold, and it was as button aces held up
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it all worked out "correctly" then - if he had aces so be it.
People say folding kings in any spot preflop is bad in the long term. I dont think I"ve ever folded kings preflop. However, I"m certain I saw Ram Vaswani do just that in the WSOPE 2009 main event on TV coverage. The other guy had aces. From memory I think the villain raised with aces, ram 3 bet, villain 4 bet, ram 5 bet and villain shoved and ram folded. Something along those lines anyway. Perhaps he thought that folding KK is overall -EV but given the situation of a wsope bracelet, down to the last 20 or so players, maybe reads and all he was sure the guy had aces and didnt want to bust at this stage.
This was the worst fold of all time after Ram"s betsizing.
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KK/AA first hand of a tournament I open-shove, never mind reads.
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marty, you know the hand I"m talking about? Did you also see the TV coverage?
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Yea I know it - I actually used it as an example of awful bet sizing in a presentation. gg ram.
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just to finish up
with the 4 bettors shove i know im already calling against him, had it been a shove and a call before its back to me im in a tough spot, but i call and he turns over Ako and bricks out to double me up, original raiser fold JJ he said and had i shoved he wouldve snap called - ho hum
i know its not an indepth or deep topic but it was more a question on what my first raise shouldve been
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I think in this scenario whether you"d shoved or raised to 2000, with the type of player you describe the button to be, plus the fact he"s just 4 bet an UTG raise and reraise, he"s only ever gonna have one of 3-4 hands here. AA/QQ/AK. So by definition he was never going anywhere whatever you did. The long term outcome is probably the same for either play in this situation.
You can"t necessarily rely accurately on what the original raiser said he might do if you"d just shoved. If he is a "pro" he might"ve said that to try and tilt you
Marty, do you have some in depth info on this hand by vaswani? As with tv its always difficult to appreciate the situation, but on the face of it it seemed a decent play. He narrowed his opponents range down to one hand and correctly folded. However, due to the lack of info on TV I dont know how much of his stack he burned in finding out his opponent had aces. He did, however, manage to keep himself in the tourney at that late stage which may mean making a -EV play on a one off occasion ensured he didnt bust out of a tournament where the prizes were very lucrative. Let me say though I"d never fold kings preflop. I can"t remember as I say how it went, but if I"d raised with KK preflop and got 3 bet, depending on the stack size I"d probably just shove and shrug if he had aces (shrug and be sick if it was a situation with that much cash on the line though I have to say)
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He chose a wayyyy too large 4bet size if memory served me correct. All that bet-sizing achieved was pricing him in if villain shoved. I"ll have a look around and c if I still have the sheet. 4bet folding w/ KK is usually grim, but 4betting big enough to price urself in and then folding is pretty dumb.
As for the hand above, do u not think shoving looks weaker than 2k? Are u making it 2k w/ AK here? If we make it 2k, do we expect villain to continue w/ 88-JJ+AQ? We always want our perceived range to look weaker than it actually is when we have KK, making a small raise makes our range look exactly like kk+. Not great...
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having set rules as to how to play situations/hands isn"t good imho..
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having set rules as to how to play situations/hands isn"t good imho..
But finding the most +EV route is...
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i understand your point of raise size and not giving off a read. I think if this had played out differently, with maybe UTG and UTG+1 not being involved, I would always pay attention to my bet size and how my opponent may interpret that bet size. However, in this situation, I think whichever route is taken will result in the same EV because of the type of player the button is. He has a very narrow range and he"s not letting his hand go. AK was probably bottom of his range and he still shoved over the strong looking 2.5k raise.
If the thread originator posted this hand because he thought by raising to 2k that scared off the "pro" UTG player with JJ (allegedly), I"d again say to him what he says he had can"t be taken as definitely accurate so there"d be no point in debating that
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then a better question would be, what raise size would be best to get utg to commit w/ inferior holdings?
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having set rules as to how to play situations/hands isn"t good imho..
But finding the most +EV route is...
u missed the point... :(
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Vaswani laying down KK against AA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgdgQBYmmqo
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Not shoving here would be criminal imo.
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Anyone flat?
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Anyone flat?
depends on our image, history and how spewy opening raisers are. Think shoving>flatting against any good thinking player.
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Shove. Get called by AA. Bink the king.
You still 100% on this Dan?
Not any more. Got it all-in pre with KK in a cash game a few weeks ago and was called by a fish with AA. Somehow I missed my 50/50 draw and lost the hand.
Meh, variance.
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dont complaine about variance when you didnt even run it twice.
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Shove. Get called by AA. Bink the king.
You still 100% on this Dan?
Not any more. Got it all-in pre with KK in a cash game a few weeks ago and was called by a fish with AA. Somehow I missed my 50/50 draw and lost the hand.
Meh, variance.
LOL it was bound to come to an end at some time! :)
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Raise to 2500, and shove any flop that doesn"t include an Ace. If you get re popped, which would surely be a push, you can then re evaluate. Question asked and answered, but can you lay your Kings down, don"t think I could.
looool.. raise to 2500 and then think about calling :D :D :D this is a joke right?? you can"t put in half your stack and then fold anything but a total bluff.. and KK is probably good anyway.. never fold after putting so much money!!!!