Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Waz1892 on October 04, 2010, 08:16:43 AM
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Couple of puzzles for me last night in one hand, nothing major, but something i "struggle" with knowing the best move, so looking for opinions from better players please.
If this is basic play, then apologies! ::)
$50"000 - Mini series last night.
Blinds 250/500. No reads on opp other than fairly tight.
I have 17k, opp has 18k. I"m in BB with 55. folded to mid position who raises 1250.
Dilemma 1 - Do I call or raise. Playing in the blinds for me is a major problem, as i never seem to know what to do. My thinking in this hand is if I re-raise, and he flats I"m out of position with a small pair, or worse he 4bets I have to fold.
If I call I"m hoping to hit a 5, if not easy to get away with. Am I thinking correctly?
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Not really a re-raising hand with your stack size - as you say, you don"t have any room to c-bet/fold if he calls your preflop raise, and given your only read is that he"s tight, it"s likely that he"s raising premium and will call your 3-bet in position. Only want to be re-raising here if it"s a shove, but with 34x you"re too deep to shove.
To call will cost you 750 - and you should be thinking about getting his whole stack if you hit.... so 750 to win 18k (+blinds)..... implied odds are fine to call and set-mine....... but be ready to check/fold if no 5 on flop - don"t get married to the hand if you miss the set.
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I think what Steve says is pretty good in a vacuum, but a lot depends on villain tendancies. If this is readless then folding seems the best pre. If villain opens a lot and folds to 3bs a large %, then we can make this 4k and expect to pick it up a lot with given stack sizes. If villain overplays single pair hands, then we can peel and c/f 90% of flops. We can occasionally donk non-broadway flops and have 1 shot at it against passive villains.
So yea - as always in poker....it depends. In the readless/"fairly" tight case u have mentioned then folding is better.
One other point is if they were an absolute nit, then peeling is always good as we can assume when we hit our set we get a full double.
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I flat it pre but probably lead out (1/2 to 2/3 pot) on any dry flop - if your tight read is right he"ll fold his overs, if he calls / re-pops you"ve got M=18 or so behind when you get out of the way.
Three replies, three different lines. Isn"t poker great...
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Not really a re-raising hand with your stack size - as you say, you don"t have any room to c-bet/fold if he calls your preflop raise, and given your only read is that he"s tight, it"s likely that he"s raising premium and will call your 3-bet in position. Only want to be re-raising here if it"s a shove, but with 34x you"re too deep to shove.
To call will cost you 750 - and you should be thinking about getting his whole stack if you hit.... so 750 to win 18k (+blinds)..... implied odds are fine to call and set-mine....... but be ready to check/fold if no 5 on flop - don"t get married to the hand if you miss the set.
Everything said here. No 5 on flop I reckon I"m done with the hand. May take a pop on a dry flop. Only other flop I"m continuing with is a 234 or 346 type flops
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never folding here reads or no reads , not with a pocket pair at this sort of stack to pot.. Given opponents stack he will more often than not stack off with over pairs,top pair and overcard flush draws etc...
dont mind calling to donkbet non picture flops if we whiff a set, although that will only happen 30% of the time , or you can check a low flop and if opponent checks behind and the turn is a non picture then stabbing here is ok imho..
3 betting pre is a little more high variance given pot to stacks as its a near pot committing re-raise size and you need villain to fold 65%+ , if they are tight its right on the borderline as to if its +cEV.. If 3betting someone who has upto now folded a great deal to re-raises then bear in mind given stack sizes he may well of started to tighten his raising range and vice versa maybe he will be getting sick of folding to 3bets and he"ll make a stand, so be prepared to gamble and get those chips in..
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Thank-you so far for feedback...as ever differening opinions which is great, plenty to get my teeth into and I always love the in depth thinking behind it all. Something I"m trying to bring into my game more and more.
OK...
I called the flop with the full knowledge if no 5 I"m leaving it well alone.
Dilemma 2 -
Flop is jc 4c 5h
BINGO...
Now what. How do i get maximum without letting the flush hit, or should I not be concerning with the flush?
Pot is 2750, I have around 15k he has 16k odd. Again no reads on his c-betting patterns or folding to c-bets etc.
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having hit nirvana, i hate checking on this board.... if he has a flush draw, i don"t want him getting a free card, and if he has QQ, KK, or AJ, I want him to get his stack in before the board gets even wetter and he opts for caution.....
I donk lead here, but make the lead only around a third of the pot.... 1) this makes it look like we are giving ourselves space to get away cheaply, and 2) it gives him room to bluff raise in the knowledge that he has enough behind to fold if we shove.
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Donk leading is great when floping a set on board like this imo... It just looks so weak, and if he has top pair or over pair (which is exactly the reason you should flat call, and not 3 bet pre BTW) then hes likely wanting to protect against our possible flushdraw.
The money is going in either way with his overpair or top pair, and if he folds to your donk bet, then you were never going to get paid ayway.
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I did indeed lead out for 1250 into a 2750, expecting to at least get called, and then to shove any card unless it was a club.
He folded! So what he had when he raised pf no idea.
Was my 1250 bet too much?
I do find it hard when in the blinds with low pairs, seemingly always getting into trouble!
But a good result in this hand?..Could I have got more?
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think you played it fine Waz.
bet size was spot on on flop.
If MP raiser is loose aggressive. Then check raising the flop may be more profitable as this player is more likely to miss the flop and may try and take it down with a cbet.
who agrees?
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One of the problems with set mining during tournys, Not only do u need to hit a 7-1 shot, you also need to get paid off to justify making the call in the first place. I think too many players set mine without the proper implied odds. I do it too, i must admit defending the BB with small pairs is probably a leak in my game.
From the looks of it, if you would of breathed on that pot he was gonna fold.
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set mining is fine here Will - remember he"s in the big blind, and the raise was only 2.5x.... to only 1.5x to call.
Waz - played it spot on mate.
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I think i prefer the donk lead Rob, if he checks behind there are a few cards that kill your action, and if he is agressive then he surly sees your donk lead as weakness, and he will come over the top by trying to rep a over pair, somtimes i do this and fall into the trap when someone donks into me with a flopped set.
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One of the problems with set mining during tournys, Not only do u need to hit a 7-1 shot, you also need to get paid off to justify making the call in the first place.
This is the very reason I get into trouble sometimes, as it doesn"t sit comfy with me re-raising small pair oop, so I"m nearly always just calling, and inveitable missing the set mine, and folding, thinking why didn"t i raise, and so it goes round and round!
Ty for the feedback, and if Rob and Steve think it was played OK, good enough for me anyday! 8)
(finished 96th from 1600+ for $133)
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I think i prefer the donk lead Rob, if he checks behind there are a few cards that kill your action, and if he is agressive then he surly sees your donk lead as weakness, and he will come over the top by trying to rep a over pair, somtimes i do this and fall into the trap when someone donks into me with a flopped set.
I pretty much agree with this. was just putting the C/R out there.
The only problem with donk leading sets is that you need to donk lead a few more spots (dont you??). What other spots / flops are favourable for this?
thoughts??
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Before you posted the outcome I was going to make the case for the check-raise.
[To be fair, I do mostly lead out there too, probably a bit less than 1/2 pot for all the reasons Steve et al mentioned - but moreso if I"ve already been seen to open post-flop a decent chunk of the time.]
There are plenty of legitimate pf raising hands that miss this flop completely - stating the obvious, holdings like AK, AQ, maybe AT, any pocket underpair to the jack plus any creative raises if your read isn"t quite right. If your oppo is in an ABC mood he"ll get out of the way to any respectable lead, as happened.
IMO people worry too much about flopped bare flush draws against a single opponent. The chances of villain holding two clubs (now that we know that two of them are out there on the flop) are less than 5%. Factor in the chances of then actually hitting the flush on the turn even if he does have clubs in the hole and you"re looking at 1 in 100. If we can safely rule out the up & down draw (and it doesn"t sound like you put him on 67/63/32) then his only draws are to the overset (5%) or to one or two pair, which is clearly a result for us.
He could scupper our check-raise by checking behind, but any overpair to the jack, the jack itself PLUS most of the hands I was saying he"d fold if you lead (why wouldn"t he think his AK/AQ/TT-66 is ahead here?) should probably result in a c-bet on the flop for us to re-pop.
So I accept it"s slightly higher variance, but I do think there is some merit to checking the flop to either (a) hoover up any light c-bet and/or (b) let him catch up a bit to improve our return on later streets.
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think you played it fine Waz.
bet size was spot on on flop.
If MP raiser is loose aggressive. Then check raising the flop may be more profitable as this player is more likely to miss the flop and may try and take it down with a cbet.
who agrees?
Me, but I made it sound more complicated :P
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you played it fine waz given your read , you fast played it to build a pot which is rarely wrong , fast playing rather than slow playing when in position or out also has the benefit of making you difficult to read and causes opponents to make mistakes.. try to get out of thinking about hands as a singular event, you went by your read and created an opportunity for yourself to get the opponent to reraise his over pairs, call top pair or a flush draw etc etc.. if you had a read that villain cbet almost all of his range then checking to check raise is ok to.. if for example you had suspicions that villain was hand reading, for example you had seen him calling flops in position and when opponents had checked the turn showing weakness and he was betting out putting pressure on them on 4th or 5th street then a bet check bet line depending on the texture will work.. meh its all on whatever reads you have at the time as to which line of play is most optimal so rather than worrying about how to play certain hands working on how you read others and filling in the rest by logic,pattern of play or just instinct is more beneficial to you in how to be getting better..
betting out and playing fast builds pots, it pisses you off when opponents fold lol lol but you create the chance to get bets on all 3 streets and way more chips/bigger pots..
when playing in the blinds and calling certain hands and hitting then betting out and playing fast has other benefits, especially on certain textures [ref - robs question].. for example take a look at G2L wcoop hand, sorry george as to using your hand as an example but i think its a good one to use as to the perils of checking..
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=49888.0
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Cheers people, and noble for the blonde link. (on that link - I would have called the shove too - with also the thinking that allofit would be isolating the 4k bet from the loose player with more of a range cuz he cud easily think I (Gl2) have missed that 9high flop - is that thinking ok and along the right lines?)
Seriously pleased that I posted it up on here, as some very good advise from better players which is the whoel reason I joined APAT, and will start to post more hands i get into.
Always shyed away from that, because I didn"t want to come across looking silly with silly plays...but how else can you learn.
At least I have learnt that very fact!
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Remember my hand i posted from a few months back, when i flopped the nut flush draw with AK on a 679 flop vs
ally mallu, i checked to the agressive player and he then overshoves on me for like 15k into a 4k pot. Both of us were 150 bbs deep.
If i had led out into him, then i take the overshove play away from his repitoir. quite a similar spot that G2L finds himself in, i had a big hand and by slow playing was forced to fold.
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re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event with a awesome structure. Even tho Villian 1 was a maniac, I felt the re shover had a much tighter range than normal due to the buy in and due to the structure
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re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event with a awesome structure. Even tho Villian 1 was a maniac, I felt the re shover had a much tighter range than normal due to the buy in and due to the structure
Far from me to critic ur play george at all - blimey, far far from it. :-[
I wasnt meant to be questioning your play by saying Id call. As you say, in the moment, playing at the high level tournie, things are very different. Easy to just say "i"d call" on a forum instead of playing the actual hand.
no offence intended.
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55 in BB.
Call or fold pre flop.
Check/call flop.
Assess situation on turn & get chips in somehow (his too!!)
If a club turns bet big. Any other big card may give him pair & you get paid.
As played you"re just unlucky he doesn"t have big pair/AJ to pay you off.
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re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event with a awesome structure. Even tho Villian 1 was a maniac, I felt the re shover had a much tighter range than normal due to the buy in and due to the structure
many thanks George
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re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event and was playing skeeeeered
FYP :D
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re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event and was playing skeeeeered
FYP :D
wish I"d been scurred on my exit hand.
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depending on his c-bet frequency and his VPIP/PFR i will probably be check-raising rather than leading this flop. Not scared of a flush draw getting a free card as most plyers will c-bet their flush draws.
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Before you posted the outcome I was going to make the case for the check-raise.
[To be fair, I do mostly lead out there too, probably a bit less than 1/2 pot for all the reasons Steve et al mentioned - but moreso if I"ve already been seen to open post-flop a decent chunk of the time.]
There are plenty of legitimate pf raising hands that miss this flop completely - stating the obvious, holdings like AK, AQ, maybe AT, any pocket underpair to the jack plus any creative raises if your read isn"t quite right. If your oppo is in an ABC mood he"ll get out of the way to any respectable lead, as happened.
IMO people worry too much about flopped bare flush draws against a single opponent. The chances of villain holding two clubs (now that we know that two of them are out there on the flop) are less than 5%. Factor in the chances of then actually hitting the flush on the turn even if he does have clubs in the hole and you"re looking at 1 in 100. If we can safely rule out the up & down draw (and it doesn"t sound like you put him on 67/63/32) then his only draws are to the overset (5%) or to one or two pair, which is clearly a result for us.
He could scupper our check-raise by checking behind, but any overpair to the jack, the jack itself PLUS most of the hands I was saying he"d fold if you lead (why wouldn"t he think his AK/AQ/TT-66 is ahead here?) should probably result in a c-bet on the flop for us to re-pop.
So I accept it"s slightly higher variance, but I do think there is some merit to checking the flop to either (a) hoover up any light c-bet and/or (b) let him catch up a bit to improve our return on later streets.
I am check-raising this all day long ... makes me want to play ...