Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: PantsMan on October 19, 2010, 23:45:40 PM
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DTD £50 deepstack this weekend. Can"t recall exact numbers but a hand came up that really made me think. Just wondered what others opinions were.
My stack is about 27k. Blinds are 200-400, 50 ante.
A guy who has raised 3xbb whenever he"s raised suddenly raises 5x to 2000. I"m on the button and elect to call with A-10s as i"m putting him on a medium pair. Small blind folds and then big blind tanks for a bit and shoves all in for about 5.5k. The initial raiser insta-shoves for about 12k. Then it gets interesting....
Obviously i"m ready to throw my hand away. But then i look over and the guy who has shoved for 12k is so busy talking to the waitress he thinks i"ve folded and turns over his hand. Pocket 8"s. I immediately take my hand off my cards that were heading for the muck. I calculate the pot and it"s about 22k. I have to call 9k leaving me with 18k. But i don"t know what the big blind has. All i do know is he"s shoved already a few times and not been called.
So, do you call?
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With those odds there would be burn marks to follow my chips they would go in that quickly!
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call call call call call call call call, and then call some more
lose it, and you still have 15k behind.
call and win the side pot only, and you break even-ish
call and win the lot and you"re laughing
not folding for 2.4/1 when I can see the 88 hand
Hate the flat call pre though - flatting a 5x raise is pretty spewy in the long run
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Fold pre.
Fold now.
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Fold pre.
Fold now.
i would have called the 2k but not 12k... Y.... i would say the average stack is about 20k you have got 27 .....more than the average stack ..... you call 2000 and mis you still have 25k..... you call 12k and mis your below average .....i would say your behind BOTH players you have 2 get very lucky 2 win this hand ......this game its not all about gambling its about playing cards....... the games about biulding a nice stack and winning the tourney ...y risk 12k when the bbls are only 200and 400 you only have 2k in the pot.....y double someone up to 10k or even better 24k......play cards NOT a c r a p s h o ut
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Fold pre.
Fold now.
i would have called the 2k but not 12k... Y.... i would say the average stack is about 20k you have got 27 .....more than the average stack ..... you call 2000 and mis you still have 25k..... you call 12k and mis your below average .....i would say your behind BOTH players you have 2 get very lucky 2 win this hand ......this game its not all about gambling its about playing cards....... the games about biulding a nice stack and winning the tourney ...y risk 12k when the bbls are only 200and 400 you only have 2k in the pot.....y double someone up to 10k or even better 24k......play cards NOT a c r a p s h o ut
It"s also about taking the gamble in the right spots, and in this scenario, if the BB were to show up with another pocket pair lower than tens, folding ATs would actually be a really bad fold.... in fact, so long as the BB doesn"t have AT dominated (which I accept he could well do), then calling is absolutely correct here given the pot odds, and the risk/reward
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Fold pre.
Fold now.
i would have called the 2k but not 12k... Y.... i would say the average stack is about 20k you have got 27 .....more than the average stack ..... you call 2000 and mis you still have 25k..... you call 12k and mis your below average .....i would say your behind BOTH players you have 2 get very lucky 2 win this hand ......this game its not all about gambling its about playing cards....... the games about biulding a nice stack and winning the tourney ...y risk 12k when the bbls are only 200and 400 you only have 2k in the pot.....y double someone up to 10k or even better 24k......play cards NOT a c r a p s h o ut
It"s also about taking the gamble in the right spots, and in this scenario, if the BB were to show up with another pocket pair lower than tens, folding ATs would actually be a really bad fold.... in fact, so long as the BB doesn"t have AT dominated (which I accept he could well do), then calling is absolutely correct here given the pot odds, and the risk/reward
i no what you are saying about pot odds..... BUT thats like IF a wee word with a big meaning.....i usually agree with what you say in your posts but i dont think this is the right call after all i do think he will be dominated he dosent need 2 gamble just my opinion but i would fold all day long y gamble when you dont have to
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side pots ftw - i prob call here as played but I never get here like this. Flatting the 5x pre is not good! 3b or fold.
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Fold pre.
Fold now.
i would have called the 2k but not 12k... Y.... i would say the average stack is about 20k you have got 27 .....more than the average stack ..... you call 2000 and mis you still have 25k..... you call 12k and mis your below average .....i would say your behind BOTH players you have 2 get very lucky 2 win this hand ......this game its not all about gambling its about playing cards....... the games about biulding a nice stack and winning the tourney ...y risk 12k when the bbls are only 200and 400 you only have 2k in the pot.....y double someone up to 10k or even better 24k......play cards NOT a c r a p s h o ut
It"s also about taking the gamble in the right spots, and in this scenario, if the BB were to show up with another pocket pair lower than tens, folding ATs would actually be a really bad fold.... in fact, so long as the BB doesn"t have AT dominated (which I accept he could well do), then calling is absolutely correct here given the pot odds, and the risk/reward
i no what you are saying about pot odds..... BUT thats like IF a wee word with a big meaning.....i usually agree with what you say in your posts but i dont think this is the right call after all i do think he will be dominated he dosent need 2 gamble just my opinion but i would fold all day long y gamble when you dont have to
and if we are dominated by the BB"s hand, we are still racing with the 88 guy for a side pot which is bigger than the main pot, and for which we are still getting correct pot odds to call.
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the cold call is pretty bad in the first place. Given we have chipped up and we know what villain has i guess i would reluctantly call, although our equity may be reduced by the short stack having a bigger ace.
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Fold pre.
Fold now.
i would have called the 2k but not 12k... Y.... i would say the average stack is about 20k you have got 27 .....more than the average stack ..... you call 2000 and mis you still have 25k..... you call 12k and mis your below average .....i would say your behind BOTH players you have 2 get very lucky 2 win this hand ......this game its not all about gambling its about playing cards....... the games about biulding a nice stack and winning the tourney ...y risk 12k when the bbls are only 200and 400 you only have 2k in the pot.....y double someone up to 10k or even better 24k......play cards NOT a c r a p s h o ut
It"s also about taking the gamble in the right spots, and in this scenario, if the BB were to show up with another pocket pair lower than tens, folding ATs would actually be a really bad fold.... in fact, so long as the BB doesn"t have AT dominated (which I accept he could well do), then calling is absolutely correct here given the pot odds, and the risk/reward
i no what you are saying about pot odds..... BUT thats like IF a wee word with a big meaning.....i usually agree with what you say in your posts but i dont think this is the right call after all i do think he will be dominated he dosent need 2 gamble just my opinion but i would fold all day long y gamble when you dont have to
and if we are dominated by the BB"s hand, we are still racing with the 88 guy for a side pot which is bigger than the main pot, and for which we are still getting correct pot odds to call.
y race your hourses don.t win very often. or do they?
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Fold pre.
Fold now.
i would have called the 2k but not 12k... Y.... i would say the average stack is about 20k you have got 27 .....more than the average stack ..... you call 2000 and mis you still have 25k..... you call 12k and mis your below average .....i would say your behind BOTH players you have 2 get very lucky 2 win this hand ......this game its not all about gambling its about playing cards....... the games about biulding a nice stack and winning the tourney ...y risk 12k when the bbls are only 200and 400 you only have 2k in the pot.....y double someone up to 10k or even better 24k......play cards NOT a c r a p s h o ut
It"s also about taking the gamble in the right spots, and in this scenario, if the BB were to show up with another pocket pair lower than tens, folding ATs would actually be a really bad fold.... in fact, so long as the BB doesn"t have AT dominated (which I accept he could well do), then calling is absolutely correct here given the pot odds, and the risk/reward
i no what you are saying about pot odds..... BUT thats like IF a wee word with a big meaning.....i usually agree with what you say in your posts but i dont think this is the right call after all i do think he will be dominated he dosent need 2 gamble just my opinion but i would fold all day long y gamble when you dont have to
and if we are dominated by the BB"s hand, we are still racing with the 88 guy for a side pot which is bigger than the main pot, and for which we are still getting correct pot odds to call.
still not racing for 12k when bbls are 200 an 400 sorry thats just me
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]still not racing for 12k when bbls are 200 an 400 sorry thats just me
lol but you"ll call 2k off to fold the flop though?
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]still not racing for 12k when bbls are 200 an 400 sorry thats just me
lol but you"ll call 2k off to fold the flop though?
2k from 27k ante much and who said i would fold STOP FISHING
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i thnk flatting pre is the biggest mistake in this hand.
i dnt think calling or folding the shove is awful.
i think call is marginally better w/ remaining stack size, equity against 8"s, side pot, chance to knock out 2 players (would be good to know how many remaining/paid).
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]still not racing for 12k when bbls are 200 an 400 sorry thats just me
lol but you"ll call 2k off to fold the flop though?
2k from 27k ante much and who said i would fold STOP FISHING
problem is that what look like small mistakes preflop magnify into bigger mistakes postflop, which is sort of illustrated in the hand here.
A10 is likely to hit alot of difficult flops, (2nd pair, gutshots etc) and facing a c-bet from an aggressive villain in an already bloated pot (due to 5x pre and a call), it could be more than a 2k mistake from a 27k stack.
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I would of folded for the 2k because i dont like playing big pots not knowing what im up against, but now knowing its a flip for the side pot im calling.
Its EV because, this tourny becomes such a crapshoot that you will have to gamble soon, and for you to take a flip and possibly win right now for this ammount of chips, gives you a decant stack to punish all the noobs at your table. And players in these tend to be really bad (hence the guy turning his hand over giving you a free look)
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The numbers don"t seem to add up. It must be 10k to call into a pot of 20k, leaving 15k behind. If you meant he shoved for 12k extra (which I didn"t think you meant) it would be a call of 12k into a pot of 22k, leaving 13k behind.
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Ok, sorry for the late reply on this one. Actually forgot i"d posted it! Dumbass!
Anyway, thanks for all the replies. Here"s my thoughts:
The reason for the call pre-flop was that i"d put him on a medium pair given his previous play. But it figured if i 3 bet he would be happy to shove and i wouldn"t be able to call. However, if i hit the flop or it comes with high cards i can win it as he"s not calling unless he hits his set, given the way he"s played so far. My biggest mistake here imo is not taking into account the stack size of the big blind behind me and what he might do. I soon realised this when he shoved, hence why i was ready to muck when the original raiser re-shoves. Once he turns over his hand i have a decision to make.
My reasoning here was that i still have a good sized stack if i lose but if i win i have a great stack at this stage and if i win the side pot i pick up chips too so i called. I was happy to take a bit of a gamble as i was getting decent odds and the advantage of having a big stack against the people who play in these is huge.
So, what happened. Well, the BB turned over Queens. Not so good but i"d seen him shove with a LOT less.
Flop A-x-x. Happy days!
Turn - Queen - Ouch
River - Eight - FML
Don"t mind my call here so wasn"t too bothered but was intrigued to see what others would do. And if it wasn"t for the Pokerstars special on the turn and river i may be on here telling you i"d won the whole thing! :)
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I would of folded for the 2k because i dont like playing big pots not knowing what im up against, but now knowing its a flip for the side pot im calling.
Its EV because, this tourny becomes such a crapshoot that you will have to gamble soon, and for you to take a flip and possibly win right now for this ammount of chips, gives you a decant stack to punish all the noobs at your table. And players in these tend to be really bad (hence the guy turning his hand over giving you a free look)
This matches my thoughts on this hand.