Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: pokerpops on November 03, 2010, 10:38:38 AM
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.50/1 Cash at DTD last weekend
I"m villain here - I"ve been active... and I"m playing c £200
£4 raise preflop, can"t remember who made it - it might even have been me in cut-off
Hero has 33
Flop is 3 J J
hero bets £12
villain throws in 5 x £5 chips and says "I meant to make it more"
hero calls, we"re no heads-up
turn K
hero bets £20 - villain calls
river 7
hero bets £40 with about £90 behind
Villain shoves
Hero says "B*ll*cks" and.................. Call??? or Fold?
Will clarify the reason for the question later
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Not a cash player myself, but I"d call this.
You say you were heads-up after flop betting. How many in hand after the pre-flop betting?
Anyway...I don"t think I put you on any Jack hands here as there"s no need for you to re-pop his flop bet. No straight or flush draws to protect against, so why risk losing your customer with a re-raise here and a re-raise that wasn"t as big as you meant it to be?
Can"t put you on KK either as re-raising with Kings on that board seems a bit pointless too and if you"ve got sevens well I"ve just jolly well been unlucky. It"s £90 to win something like £280 so I have to call I reckons.
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Lots of info missing, reads, stack sizes, how many to the flop, pot size at each street.
Call, and not even close. I"d want a super strong read on villain to even consider folding. You may be coolered but still lots of hands you beat.
If its boat over boat then the chips should have gone in a lot earlier in the hand. Not a fan of hero"s turn lead, its a geat spot to check raise ai.
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Those games .50 / 1.00 games at DTD can be quite nitty. His stack size is important but in this game I doubt I ever fold here! JK, J7 - unlucky, "Chips!" He probably has JQ at VERY best imo lol.
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call! but then I rarely fold to river shoves these days it seems.
if 33 is behind here, it"s just a plain old cooler and 33 is meant to go busto.
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Those games .50 / 1.00 games at DTD can be quite nitty.
I have never seen a nitty cash game at dtd. When ever i have played, there are players raising and 3 betting before the cards have been delt. Same thing was happning on friday night when i gt knockedout of the GP comp.
Dealer wouldnt let us straddle, so it was like this, "ok i raise dark UTG, i reraise dark UTG + 2" etc.....
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wtf is the £20 bet on the turn
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wtf is the £20 bet on the turn
It may have been £30 - looks like pot building and in any event it"s not totally relevant to the question on the river other than the fact that it was called.
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well i"d either min3bet the flop or check-raise the turn.
Calling flop and donk leading the turn can have merit but only against aggressive players. If he is a station bet much more to set up a standard river shove.
however you played the hand (there is some important info missing) i can"t see me folding
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well i"d either min3bet the flop or check-raise the turn.
Calling flop and donk leading the turn can have merit but only against aggressive players. If he is a station bet much more to set up a standard river shove.
however you played the hand (there is some important info missing) i can"t see me folding
I didn"t play the hand (well - I did, but I didn"t have 33)
My interest is in whether we think 33 is a call on the river?
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I didn"t play the hand (well - I did, but I didn"t have 33)
My interest is in whether we think 33 is a call on the river?
definitely
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getting a huge price and you have a boat, people don"t fold full houses
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getting a huge price and you have a boat, people don"t fold full houses
They do if Villain (me) mis-hears the sigh of b*ll*cks" as "Call" and flips his KJ over to avoid accusations of slow-rolling...
There goes £90 >:(
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Those games .50 / 1.00 games at DTD can be quite nitty.
I have never seen a nitty cash game at dtd. When ever i have played, there are players raising and 3 betting before the cards have been delt. Same thing was happning on friday night when i gt knockedout of the GP comp.
Dealer wouldnt let us straddle, so it was like this, "ok i raise dark UTG, i reraise dark UTG + 2" etc.....
Nitty was probably the wrong word. I always think nitty as in passive / loose, but I think the true definition of it poker wise it is probably best described as tight / weak.
Your example of the 0.50 / 1.00 games is exactly what I was getting at. No live straddle yet they"re prepared to blind bet from UTG+2. How can you even start to figure out where you are in the hand if you"ve been the pre flop aggressor with 100BB? It"s not exactly a skill game I don"t think anyway. FWIW the no straddle and 100BB cap rules are rubbish IMO.
Paul.
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getting a huge price and you have a boat, people don"t fold full houses
They do if Villain (me) mis-hears the sigh of b*ll*cks" as "Call" and flips his KJ over to avoid accusations of slow-rolling...
There goes £90 >:(
Shame you weren"t up against RioRodent, he"d have still called ;D
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FWIW the no straddle and 100BB cap rules are rubbish IMO.
We haven"t all just won £40k at WSOPE you know!! some of us have to play within a limited bankroll, the cap to 100BB helps. Personally would prefer to play £1/£2 with a £200 cap, but they rarely do that at DTD. Last time I bought into a £1/£2 game with £200, a guy sat on my left with around £10k!
Make the low stakes games capless, and you lose a lot of the first timers from the cash tables
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Have to say that i would rather somthing like 100-200 bbs mandatory buyins at DTD, it would get rid of the shortstackers, and wouldnt matter so much if some moron was betting dark. But i dont go there often for reasons like this.
Agree that if it is capless, then some idiot is gonna show off his roll, but muppets sitting there on friday night with just £50-£100 and 3 betting blind is absolutly ridic.....the game is just not deep enough for this type of stupidity.
Most people at the tables in DTD / or most other card rooms for that matter, have seen poker on TV, with straddles and players like Tony G raising dark etc, but what they dont realise, is that these games are 400+ bbs deep.
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FWIW the no straddle and 100BB cap rules are rubbish IMO.
We haven"t all just won £40k at WSOPE you know!!
I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!
Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.
Paul
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I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!
Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.
Paul
Completely disagree Paul.
Its really tough to hand read against the wide ranges found in this type of game for sure. But the player"s have tendancies and huge weaknesses you can observe and exploit, AKA, playing good poker, honing ones skills etc.
My experience of this type of game is that there"s huge variance and the beats can be savage. As a result tilt control and bankroll management skills are rigourously tested over and over.
Those are probably two of the more beneficial skillsets a decent player can master. Many top top players have gone broke as a direct result of one or both of these common leaks.
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I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!
Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.
Paul
Completely disagree Paul.
You make some real valid points of which I completely agree with. Tilt control and bankroll management are very very important as you quite rightly state.
However, the OP was questioning whether or not it is right in this situation to call with 33 on the board in question. I would virtually never, in this game, in this situation, fold because the game is so soft. And as I previously got onto, I personally think that playing your hand vs hand ranges is one of the most important skills you"ll need to play good players. In these games, you won"t develop that skill. This is what I was trying to point out to the OP"er. If you want to learn about tricky spot"s as this situation may or may not be, playing $0.50/$1.00 (dollars not pounds) will learn you more than that game will, and you"ll still learn the important stuff you mentioned.
Frankly, you are better off sitting in the £1.00/£2.00 game with £100 (50BB"s) than you are buying in for the cap at £0.50/£1.00.
Paul.
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I think its hard to exploit a game when people are only buying in for 40-50bbs. Makes it hard to play the tricky hands like small pairs and suited connectors etc vs them, especially if they are raising dark etc. And if you wait for good starting hands and tighten up your ranges, then this makes for higher variance. So i think its right that what paul has said.
"u will never hone your skills in these games" and if you have tilt issues and very bad bank roll management like me. Im best off leaving them alone.
i dont play at dtd often, but from what i have seen, i think most of the regs there couldnt beat the low stakes on stars and tilt.
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Thought long and hard about whether or not to reply to this, in the end, there are so many points that are just wrong.
I think its hard to exploit a game when people are only buying in for 40-50bbs. Makes it hard to play the tricky hands like small pairs and suited connectors etc vs them, especially if they are raising dark etc. And if you wait for good starting hands and tighten up your ranges, then this makes for higher variance. So i think its right that what paul has said.
Play a solid starting hand range and isolate, preflop raise may need to be inordinately large but figure out what size works best. From there, no need to get jiggy, just bet the max for value when you hit. When you"re good you extract the max and he pays you off, when he"s good he misses lots of value and you make correct folds = you turn a nice profit.
I think its hard to exploit a game when people are only buying in for 40-50bbs. Makes it hard to play the tricky hands like small pairs and suited connectors etc vs them, especially if they are raising dark etc. And if you wait for good starting hands and tighten up your ranges, then this makes for higher variance. So i think its right that what paul has said.
Small pairs are gold in this game, you flop a set 1:8 and its highly likely you"ll stack someone. Folding small pairs is just wrong, as a general rule, 10/1 implied odds is enough in this game to profitably see a flop.
SC"s are more tricky and if you are not comfortable playing them or can"t turn a profit with them, folding is ok and keeps the tricky spots to a minimum. But it has to be said that in this type of game, played well and for the correct price, a semi decent player should easily profit with SC"s. The secret is to play them with a plan and not deviate from that. For example,
there"s a 3x raise in ep,
two call and you hold 7s8s,
there"s 10.5 bb"s in the pot its 3 to call and you will have position in the hand.
This is a nice spot to call, but with a plan to only continue with two pair+, strong draws and combo"s, but only! for the correct price.
The flop is 7h6sJc and the raiser leads for 10 bb"s.
It was not part of our plan to continue in this kind of spot, fold!
"u will never hone your skills in these games" and if you have tilt issues and very bad bank roll management like me. Im best off leaving them alone.
i dont play at dtd often, but from what i have seen, i think most of the regs there couldnt beat the low stakes on stars and tilt.
You are totally correct, they couldn"t. I would estimate that the standard of player at even 25nl online could be 5-10 times higher than in this live £0.50. / £1 game.
But you seem to be confusing this point as a reason not! to play in the game. That brings me nicely to my final point.
Frankly, you are better off sitting in the £1.00/£2.00 game with £100 (50BB"s) than you are buying in for the cap at £0.50/£1.00.
Paul.
When reasoning as to which game to play in, the "so as to hone your skills" criteria is not at all important, unless of course you can afford it, but even then?. What I mean is, obviously there is more scope to learn (AKA, "hone your skills") in tougher games and against better players but you are unlikely to profit in that game. The knowledge you gain is not much use if you"re busto.
To summarise......
- Play in games you can afford to play in
- Play in games you can beat
- Learn
- Manage your bankroll
- Move up levels
Within that framework, "hone your skills" looks after itself.
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Excellent post Brendan
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Brendan!
Extra nachos for you my good man.
Great post
:)
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Really was a good post, best one on academy section ive seen for a while. Thanks for that.
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I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!
Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.
Paul
Completely disagree Paul.
You make some real valid points of which I completely agree with. Tilt control and bankroll management are very very important as you quite rightly state.
However, the OP was questioning whether or not it is right in this situation to call with 33 on the board in question. I would virtually never, in this game, in this situation, fold because the game is so soft. And as I previously got onto, I personally think that playing your hand vs hand ranges is one of the most important skills you"ll need to play good players. In these games, you won"t develop that skill. This is what I was trying to point out to the OP"er. If you want to learn about tricky spot"s as this situation may or may not be, playing $0.50/$1.00 (dollars not pounds) will learn you more than that game will, and you"ll still learn the important stuff you mentioned.
Frankly, you are better off sitting in the £1.00/£2.00 game with £100 (50BB"s) than you are buying in for the cap at £0.50/£1.00.
Paul.
agree with Paul that u learn by playing better players, getting good at poker is about learning and not winning, the better u get as u learn then winning money goes hand in hand with u getting better because u are learning :)
Once u learn the fundamentals playing weak players then imho your game stagnates if u continue playing them, in some cases i"d say some players go backwards :)
Playing against a tough opponent/opponents forces you to step up your game, i suppose the trick is not to step up to far lol. Pick/table select opponents that are just ahead of yourself, just so that"s it enough of a challenge so that it forces to you think and focus more than you usually do. It"s then a case of hopefully you"ll hold your own, its the only way to get an idea of your potential. If it goes tits up then it is a case of trying to work out what your not good at, even if you thought that certain areas of your game was ok, flaws in your game will be more exposed playing tough opponents IMO. On the flipside of playing tough opponents it doesn"t just expose flaws in your game, it can also expose areas that your good at which you weren"t really aware of, again when you review afterwards hopefully you"ll get to understand why.. lol lol ...
Phil Ivey"s opinion on how to get better is at the 2min 50sec mark...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNthDspItsQ&feature=player_embedded
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Since you resurrected this interesting thread Noble
I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!
Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.
Paul
My response was to the comment "I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games."
IMHO thats totally incorrect. There is plenty to observe and learn in this game, consider it your first year at Poker College, a place to learn some fundamentals cheaply or if your a quick learner, for a profit.
I personally think that playing your hand vs hand ranges is one of the most important skills you"ll need to play good players. In these games, you won"t develop that skill. This is what I was trying to point out to the OP"er.
Its really tough to hand read against the wide ranges found in this type of game for sure. It is often argued that it is much easier to hand read versus the smaller ranges of nitty players and I would definately agree with that observation.
Conversely though, it should then follow that the wider ranges provide more of a hand reading challenge. So again, to state "In these games, you won"t develop that skill", is IMHO incorrect.
agree with Paul that u learn by playing better players, getting good at poker is about learning and not winning, the better u get as u learn then winning money goes hand in hand with u getting better because u are learning :)
Once u learn the fundamentals playing weak players then imho your game stagnates if u continue playing them, in some cases i"d say some players go backwards :)
Playing against a tough opponent/opponents forces you to step up your game, i suppose the trick is not to step up to far lol. Pick/table select opponents that are just ahead of yourself, just so that"s it enough of a challenge so that it forces to you think and focus more than you usually do. It"s then a case of hopefully you"ll hold your own, its the only way to get an idea of your potential. If it goes tits up then it is a case of trying to work out what your not good at, even if you thought that certain areas of your game was ok, flaws in your game will be more exposed playing tough opponents IMO. On the flipside of playing tough opponents it doesn"t just expose flaws in your game, it can also expose areas that your good at which you weren"t really aware of, again when you review afterwards hopefully you"ll get to understand why.. lol lol ...
Phil Ivey"s opinion on how to get better is at the 2min 50sec mark...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNthDspItsQ&feature=player_embedded
You certainly " learn by playing better players" and obviously you learn stuff you most definately won"t learn "at those games" (ie. first year of Poker College) but that doesn"t equate to "I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.".
Simply put, the complexities of Poker offers multiple skill levels to master, each next level is almost like a whole new game, invisible to you and only revealed when you fully understand your current skill level.
Some uber talented players may succeed immediately in higher standard games, some will learn faster than others but IMHO a solid learning process should exclusively start at the basic level and build on that by way of adding the more advanced skills and understandings.
On top of all of that....
"getting good at poker is about learning and not winning"
Getting good at poker = Winning. But! you can"t learn if you don"t play, you can"t play if you"re Busto, hence......
- Play in games you can afford to play in
- Play in games you can beat
- Learn
"Once u learn the fundamentals playing weak players then imho your game stagnates"
So you should.....
"trick is not to step up to far lol."
"just so that"s it enough of a challenge"
AKA......
- Manage your bankroll
- Move up levels
"If it goes tits up"
It won"t if you........
And finally, one last seldom mentioned point.
Progress and learning in Poker is measured by winnings but unlike in most pursuits this key peformance indicator will very often lie to us. On any given day we can.........
- Play our absolute best and lose big
- Play our absolute worst and win big
It takes a unique physcological fortitude to not be deceived by this anomaly.
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Lots of waffle for good to learn the basics at SSNL imho ;D BUT to get better u still need to move up and play better players... Is it really hard to play SSNL? not imho, full of passive bad and aggressive bad players, value bet till the passive player reraises and let go of 1pair hands instantly, against aggressive bad then TPTK is mostly ahead, eassssy game... :) like i maintain , that sort of skill is dumbing down to the the most basic level, hand reading is far easier in SSNL moreso against a NIT as there hands are face up by the river, its not rocket science.. :) plus it helps if u have your lucky pants/socks on plus a BRA on your head imho...
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Lots of waffle for good to learn the basics at SSNL imho ;D BUT to get better u still need to move up and play better players... Is it really hard to play SSNL? not imho, full of passive bad and aggressive bad players, value bet till the passive player reraises and let go of 1pair hands instantly, against aggressive bad then TPTK is mostly ahead, eassssy game... :) like i maintain , that sort of skill is dumbing down to the the most basic level, hand reading is far easier in SSNL moreso against a NIT as there hands are face up by the river, its not rocket science.. :) plus it helps if u have your lucky pants/socks on plus a BRA on your head imho...
Your selective reading skills are well honed ;D
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Your selective reading skills are well honed ;D
i think andrew seidman maybe onto something yes :)
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Brendan,
I too wasn"t going to go on in this particular thread because I think it"s quite obvious that me and you will have to agree to disagree on certain points throughout this thread and I didn"t want to go on about it. However, you do make some perfectly valid points that I can disagree with. That game at Dusk Till Dawn is a great game to learn basic principles from but you do keep referring to a phrase I used earlier in the thread:
"I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games."
Perhaps I better build on that statement because I think it"s being misinterpreted.
Your very right, this game is good for "your first year in poker college" so to speak. You will learn all of the basic fundamentals that you and other posters commented on. Bank roll management, tilt control, basic cash game strategy. I"m sure you could sit, play ABC poker and take advantage of certain players and situations whilst doing so, also learning basic fundamentals as you go along.
If that is all you interested in, I.E. playing £0.50/£1.00 and playing to a profit comfortably then yes I agree, this is quite achievable at this level. However, take this style of game into a good £1.00/£2.00 or £2.00/£5.00 game and you will lose your money because you will have become accustomed to playing in a way that is easily exploitable by more experienced players.
In my previous posts, I was referring to the OP"s question whether it was right to call in the given situation and I was pointing out that because the game plays a certain way, there is no way I would ever fold. In a more competitive game at a higher level with deeper stack sizes to consider, then I think his question would be quite valid as different decisions would have to be taken into consideration. I don"t think these decisions can even start to be learnt until you are playing a better game than this £0.50/£1.00 as the majority of time, small stack sizes and the softness of the game will always dictate a simple way to play.
Simply put... You are not faced by some of the more complex decisions at this level as the majority of the time, most players are 40-80BB"s deep and getting it all in with top pair and the hands simply play themselves out.
Being as we"ll both be in Bolton, I"m more than happy to "thrash" this out over a pint or two Friday night if you fancy it! :D
Paul.
Note: Changed can"t to can in first paragraph!
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Your selective reading skills are well honed ;D
i think andrew seidman maybe onto something yes :)
You have me there ???
I"m lost without your now customary link. ;D
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Brendan,
I too wasn"t going to go on in this particular thread because I think it"s quite obvious that me and you will have to agree to disagree on certain points throughout this thread
I suspect our different opinions, if even that, are simply pedantic.
My guess is that both Noble and yourself belong in the fastrack category of learners, good luck to you I am envious. I also suspect that both of you are not nearly as risk averse as us nits, again, good luck to you and I am truly envious of that advantageous talent.
As a result you learn fast and are less susceptible to knock backs and confidence damage from the inevitable losing streaks or sessions. You are however the exception to the rules I espouse in this thread.
You guys may well be able to jump straight in at "D,E,F" but for the majority it is prudent to master "A,B,C" first.
Looking forward to catching up in Bolton ;D