Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Waz1892 on November 20, 2007, 19:47:08 PM
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Et el,
Please may I tap into your vast knowledge of poker analysis and can you help me on a "arguement" in my recent home game...
The following hand occured..Question...Was is a Bad Call, a Very Bad Call, or Acceptable gamble...(Or any other comment!)
Blinds 100/200....2 handed after rest fold
(sb) ah ks Vs (bb) jc 9h...Pre Flop.....
sb raised mini...bb calls
jh td 5s.. Flop....ak raises 1/2 pot....j9 (short stack of around 2400)goes in all...AK for tourney life...calls...spikes ace on turn....j9 goes mad!!
discuss.....comments....Thank-you
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How many chips did the AK have?
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around 3600-4000..it was as good as an all in himself...there was alot of history between to players...!
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So AK bet out 400 post flop ?
J9 then went all in for 2,400 ?
AK would have to put in another 2,000 to call ?
Hmm, if I was holding the AK, with just a gut shot, I"d have definitely laid it down, although it would have left me short stacked (10 x bb, or less). That"s not to say that it"s definitely a bad call, I"d also have to take into account how the player with J9 had played up to that point.
Not sure why the player with j9 went "mad". The player with AK must have had a valid reason for calling, and hitting an A on the turn or river to win the hand can hardly be considered a bad beat......
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Opps, just read that the player with AK had 3,600 - 4,000 chips. A lay down wouldn"t have left him short stacked. Maybe he didn"t believe.
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I think the sb should have either raised more pre flop - maybe even all in - or folded.
Once he missed the flop then an obvious continuation bet like that was always going to get at least called, so either a bigger bet - or much, much more sensibly a check fold would have been better.
Obviously knowing each other well the sb might have been able to put the bb"s all in as an outright bluff - but without prior knowledge I"m guessing it would have to mean at least bottom pair. If that"s the case then I still think a fold is right even with all the chips already invested - it just means you"re restricted to either pushing all in or folding until you get at least a double up.
All avoided if the sb had just shoved all in with the AK - then the J9 would have made the mistake if they"d called it.
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What was the buy-in? As this was a home game I"d only really consider the most hideous of bad-beats as something to start throwing the twiglets around over.
What sort of game is it usually, what are playing styles and levels of ability? SB is probably thinking he"s 40% to win the hand if he puts BB on a jack so it"s not the worst of calls.
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Jon"s reply was much more eloquent than my own, and makes a lot of sense.
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Not sure why the player with j9 went "mad". The player with AK must have had a valid reason for calling, and hitting an A on the turn or river to win the hand can hardly be considered a bad beat......
j9 reasoning was for going mad was that ak basically risked his tourney life on a gutshot draw and 2 overcards..and knowing he"d need to connect with turn or river to win
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So if BB thought the AK was in such bad shape he would probably have been begging for him to call if he could have seen his cards? In which case he got what he was after and can"t really complain. He"ll win in the long run tell him..he"ll like that.
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What sort of game is it usually, what are playing styles and levels of ability? SB is probably thinking he"s 40% to win the hand if he puts BB on a jack so it"s not the worst of calls.
Friendly, but sb and bb have history...(so i can learn too) knowing that sb was about 40% (i think it is 35%) and still calling, isn"t this bad play...wasn"t getting pot odds, or hand odds with 10 outs is about 22%?
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Not sure why the player with j9 went "mad". The player with AK must have had a valid reason for calling, and hitting an A on the turn or river to win the hand can hardly be considered a bad beat......
j9 reasoning was for going mad was that ak basically risked his tourney life on a gutshot draw and 2 overcards..and knowing he"d need to connect with turn or river to win
Ah, if he knew before he called that he"d need to connect, then yes I"d have to say that"s a pretty bad call.
It"s still not a reason to go mad though.....
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So if BB thought the AK was in such bad shape he would probably have been begging for him to call if he could have seen his cards? In which case he got what he was after and can"t really complain. He"ll win in the long run tell him..he"ll like that.
;D yes, people always like hearing that what they did will make them winners "in the long run" - just after they"ve been knocked out. ;D
It was a bad call, but I agree if you were the BB you should be wanting that call, and if it goes against you then you should take it with good grace.
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I think one of the best lessons here is not to let history (emotion ?) get in the way of your game - accept what happens, learn from it, and use it to your advantage in the future.
As War has already intimated, bad or borderline calls such as the one quoted will get punished in the long run.
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So if BB thought the AK was in such bad shape he would probably have been begging for him to call if he could have seen his cards? In which case he got what he was after and can"t really complain. He"ll win in the long run tell him..he"ll like that.
It was a bad call, but I agree if you were the BB you should be wanting that call, and if it goes against you then you should take it with good grace.
bb was "mad" in a nice way...more aghast by the call with only AK and well 3 days later called me up as it was still bothering him to " ask APAT forum as they are better than us!! " so i did...but I do agree you he should have wanted the call...and know in the long run it"ll work for the good..varience I believe!
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BB should have taken it like a man.
Smiled at the river card, shook his opponent"s hand with a "nice hand good game" comment, calmly walked out of the room, continuing out of the front door into the fresh evening air, and then put AK"s windscreen in with a housebrick.
Isn"t that how home games work?
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Loads of people can"t let go of AK despite missing the flop completely.
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Its marginal call, but he is just about priced in. He is getting 3/2 for his money and he is 2/3 to hit and win if, and its a big IF, he has BB only on one pair.
I wonder if BB would have been so upset if say SB had called on Nut flush draw?!?! (because of course he has more outs if his read is right here ;-) )
At the end of the day BB should be happy, he"s got his chips whilst ahead. If he is going to get that upset at losing a 60/40 shot then perhaps he should rethink how much he wants to play poker, because he has a lot of heartache to come, lol.
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Anything goes at homegames...... they"re supposed to be a laugh???
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Anything goes at homegames...... they"re supposed to be a laugh???
My sentiments exactly
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Its marginal call, but he is just about priced in. He is getting 3/2 for his money and he is 2/3 to hit and win if, and its a big IF, he has BB only on one pair.
I wonder if BB would have been so upset if say SB had called on Nut flush draw?!?! (because of course he has more outs if his read is right here ;-) )
At the end of the day BB should be happy, he"s got his chips whilst ahead. If he is going to get that upset at losing a 60/40 shot then perhaps he should rethink how much he wants to play poker, because he has a lot of heartache to come, lol.
My sentiments. 2 streets to hit 10 outs, if you have BB on a pair - and lets face it, if he had anything more would he really be shoving???
Can"t really see much wrong with either players play. Only thing I see wrong is that BB shoved and was UNHAPPY when he got action....
Oh yeah...and they"re meant to be fun/crazy/unhinged games....