Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: shozboy1 on January 12, 2011, 23:53:42 PM
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Hi, was wondering what people thought of the below hand? I repopped this guy "wading"s" button raise. He raises 60% of his buttons when folded to.
Was this overly aggressive? The game is full ring 0.25-0.50. Antes however in this are 0.1 which means there is often lots of action as pots are worth taking down preflop
PokerStars Game #55713706697: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2011/01/11 0:05:07 WET [2011/01/10 19:05:07 ET]
Table "Industria VII" 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: l LadyLuck l ($218.10 in chips)
Seat 2: shozboy ($49.60 in chips)
Seat 3: -shameLi- ($167.50 in chips)
Seat 4: SharingaaN ($44 in chips)
Seat 6: lllFSlll ($138.80 in chips)
Seat 7: vettro ($54.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Boweryboy ($112 in chips)
Seat 9: wading ($130.85 in chips)
l LadyLuck l: posts small blind $0.25
shozboy: posts big blind $0.50
Carlos Loos: sits out
l LadyLuck l: posts the ante $0.10
shozboy: posts the ante $0.10
-shameLi-: posts the ante $0.10
SharingaaN: posts the ante $0.10
lllFSlll: posts the ante $0.10
vettro: posts the ante $0.10
Boweryboy: posts the ante $0.10
wading: posts the ante $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [6h Qh]
-shameLi-: folds
SharingaaN: folds
lllFSlll: folds
vettro: folds
Boweryboy: folds
wading: raises $1.05 to $1.55
l LadyLuck l: folds
shozboy: raises $2.05 to $3.60
wading: calls $2.05
*** FLOP *** [2s 8d Qs]
shozboy: bets $3.95
wading: calls $3.95
*** TURN *** [2s 8d Qs] [7c]
shozboy: checks
wading: bets $9
shozboy: calls $9
*** RIVER *** [2s 8d Qs 7c] [4d]
shozboy: checks
wading: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
shozboy: shows [6h Qh] (a pair of Queens)
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looks fine to me - though I think you should 3 bet bigger (say $4.50 ish) as your 3 bet pretty much compels the button to call.
rest of the hand seems fine
you won then got dogs abuse??
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i"d guess u won and villain has air or he had a flush draw...
i"ll be honest shoz and say i think it is horrible :)[if its a ""i feel i have to protect moment, rather than i"m doing it for value or image etc""] , its not a mtt, you don"t have to feel that u have to protect your blind,
if u feel like protecting in cash then protect your button, afterall this is the spot we make the most money, not the blinds :)
3bet a tad bigger pre, u wouldn"t 3bet size pre your top value range like this would u?
the line u take on the turn is a ""it depends on what reads u have and what tendencies villain has"" so without more info its tough to critique without a specific question from yourself...
obvious if someone is stealing alot, then widen that 3bet range, the range i"d do it would depend on how often villain is folding to 3bets, to cbets, reads, what my image is etc etc...
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looks fine to me - though I think you should 3 bet bigger (say $4.50 ish) as your 3 bet pretty much compels the button to call.
rest of the hand seems fine
agree with this...
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I don"t agree that you shouldn"t feel you have to protect your blinds in a cash game, that makes it sound like you"re just giving up with everything but premium hands when someone opens from a steal position. If there"s another option which yields a higher EV than folding all your trash hands, then you should do that, i.e. occasionally 3betting the loose openers.
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I don"t agree that you shouldn"t feel you have to protect your blinds in a cash game
obvious if someone is stealing alot, then widen that 3bet range, the range i"d do it would depend on how often villain is folding to 3bets, to cbets, reads, what my image is etc etc...
rest of the hand seems fine
look at board texture, what is your plan if re-raised on the flop or turn?, what is the plan if villain bets the river? [any size 1/2 pot upwards?] when looking at the texture what hand does shoz represent here? oop and no reads except villain steals 60%, nothing about how he plays post-flop or how he plays in position, yet u think it is fine? please explain why u think it is fine? expand and enlighten please.....
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"as played" were the words left out noble - "rest of the hand seems fine as played"
Obv we would like to narrow his range p/f by 3b"n larger (3b"n this small oop with any of ur range is a mistake imo), but once we get to the flop like this I don"t see how we can play it better.
We bet flop for value.
Once villain calls, we go for pot-control on the turn and river. This also allows villain to barrell some of his draws and his random floats. I can"t see a more profitable turn line. Think it goes x/c>>>b/f>>>x/r>>>b/c>>>c/f
Without writing an essay with lots of quotes from ppl playing a lot higher than NL50...once we 3b pre, what do u think is a more profitable line for the rest of the hand?
ps - i missed u wen u wer away...
pps - I also think c/c flop is ok to induce. Pretty close between this and leading imo, esp if villain has aggro flop tendancies.
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We bet flop for value.
Once villain calls, we go for pot-control on the turn and river.
That was what I meant
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all good to me, except the 3-bet sizing.... what were you hoping to achieve by 3-betting? With Q6, I think the objective should be to make him fold pre, but you gave the pot odds that pretty much forced him to call with atc.
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Is there anyone else that thinks raising 60% of button"s isn"t that aggressive?
I just can"t help think that 80% ish is more in the region of an aggressive button. I"m not taking anything away from your play as you assessed he was being aggressive in your opinion and you acted on it accordingly. However, I"m not sure I"d be 3 betting a 60% button with Q6os. I think I"d personally be looking for something that plays a bit better should I get called (Q10s, J10s, KQ, etc).
As the hand plays though, I"d just reiterate what everyone else has said. 3b higher pre. Like the pot control on turn and river with the marginal holding.
Paul.
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When its folded to me in cash games i raise about 90% of buttons, and you actually dont mind if they defend.
As for shoz boys hand, it is trash so i either fold or 3 bet, but my 3 bet would be around $4.50-5.50. I also think the
c- bet on flop is rather small, makes it easier for him to float with lots of hands, and its harder to tell weather he has flush draw or air with a smallish cbet.
Turn is the street that is hardest to play imo. I defently wouldnt barallel, but i hate check calling. So thats one reason why i dont win in cash games.
PS. good to see hands on this thread, because its been sooooo dead recently.
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meh i"m not a huge fan of pot control oop, lets face it, it is impossible to pot control oop if the villain in position decides to shove over bet the turn for example :)..
i think atm that its a line of play that can get you into some really awkward spots because so many players are familiar with the concept. if shoz checked because he had a read that villain tended to bluff the turn when checked to, or villain re-raised ip facing turn bets alot then i"d say its a good option to check call the turn..
i guess what i"m trying to point out is that without reads it is tough to say such and such a line is great, a 3barrel bluff could well be the most profitable line if villain has shown tendencies to fold to multi barrels [assuming shoz had missed the flop]...
where does it say in the poker police manual that we should pot control our medium strength hands? is there any advantages to betting the turn? if villain makes mistakes calling down flush draws if bet into but checks behind if we check, then betting the turn for value is surely the best line? its a pretty dry"ish texture there is plenty of worse hands that can call the turn is there not?
if making as much profit as possible is the goal after hitting our hand, then on this texture i cannot see why betting the turn would not be ok... shoz has the initiative so by betting the turn we may even get some better hands to fold !!!! :) we can get value from any draws by betting this turn card, if the plan was to check call the turn then why not bet it? keep the initiative going even on the river is an option, if say villain has a pair of jacks or a flush draw, maybe even 45 56 and we had reads that he would never try to bluff the turn or bet the river unimproved then there is another argument for betting the turn !!!!
meh its late[early] and i"m cream cracker"ed , so enough of the random thoughts, what do you reckon?
just another thought :) if we bet the turn and villain re-raises mostly when he"s strong along with that we had a read that he will not be bluffing alot when he does so, this means we probably weren't going to win anyway... so all we lose is our turn bet, which we would of lost anyway cos we was planning to check call the turn and maybe the river, lol did i explain my thoughts ok there :) meh it makes sense to me when i read through it again lol, clear as mud as they say ;D
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Not a fan of the 3b. You definitely have to be restealing vs button opens a decent % of the time but I don"t think Q6s is the right sort of hand to be doing it with, would much prepare to be bluffing with some of my suited aces / high card combos that have more blockers and can flop better.
Also, 3b size is way too small, I"ll generally just 3b close to full pot when this deep, especially oop.
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Is there anyone else that thinks raising 60% of button"s isn"t that aggressive?
I just can"t help think that 80% ish is more in the region of an aggressive button. I"m not taking anything away from your play as you assessed he was being aggressive in your opinion and you acted on it accordingly. However, I"m not sure I"d be 3 betting a 60% button with Q6os. I think I"d personally be looking for something that plays a bit better should I get called (Q10s, J10s, KQ, etc).
As the hand plays though, I"d just reiterate what everyone else has said. 3b higher pre. Like the pot control on turn and river with the marginal holding.
Paul.
60% isnt the highest raise button stat ever, but it is high enough for us to know villain opens light from this position and we can exploit this by widening our 3b range.
As far as b/f turn, I don"t think its a bad line at all, and think its pretty close between b/f and c/c (esp seeing ppl dnt make many moves with draws on the turn in NLH), but I just lean towards c/c as we allow villain to continue with his floats and fire IP with his draws. Dnt think either is a mistake in a vacuum tho.
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Not a fan of the 3b. You definitely have to be restealing vs button opens a decent % of the time but I don"t think Q6s is the right sort of hand to be doing it with, would much prepare to be bluffing with some of my suited aces / high card combos that have more blockers and can flop better.
Also, 3b size is way too small, I"ll generally just 3b close to full pot when this deep, especially oop.
was just gonna post this, crap hand to 3bet with imo
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Not a fan of the 3b. You definitely have to be restealing vs button opens a decent % of the time but I don"t think Q6s is the right sort of hand to be doing it with, would much prepare to be bluffing with some of my suited aces / high card combos that have more blockers and can flop better.
Also, 3b size is way too small, I"ll generally just 3b close to full pot when this deep, especially oop.
was just gonna post this, crap hand to 3bet with imo
I was also going to post the same.
How often has the original raiser folded to a 3-bet? I just hate playing Q6 OOP for the hand, and you"re inflating the pot to make it even more difficult if you do hit a piece of it (like you did).
Fold pre, and look for better opportunities imo.
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also the fold to 3bet stat on your HUD is probably more important than his steal %
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The subject of playing oop to call a raise or 3bet is rather a big one lol lol, it all depends, i know, its not a cop out, it just is... I"ll try to explain it as how i view it..
If the stealer is raising 60% of hands over a large sample and we have seen him call 3bets when in position with over half his range, then now we have a point to start from to work out what to fold, call or 3bet... Right, in broad terms a good way to approach what to fold, call or 3bet depends on villains call range, thus it makes sense to re-raise [3bet] our value range which is ahead of villains call range, in general it would also be good to mix in 3bet hands that maybe be ahead of villains range but don"t play well post flop.. Our middle of the range stuff, the part of our range that is near the top of villains range but not ahead of, then it is best to call with.. If you"re a poor player oop then fold the calling range imho lol lol and work on your reads, or 3bet it if villain folds 70%+ times... All the above is when you have reads, when u have reads then if say shoz 3bet knowing he was going to get called 50% of the time then views can be formed as to what say such and such is bad to 3bet or call etc etc,, without knowing how often villain folds, calls or 4bets our 3bets,or even postflop how often does he fold to a cbet can any1 give a good answer to u shoz.. Thus you get the consensus that 3betting Q6s with not many reads is not generally seen as ideal :)
Now that i"ve opened that can of worms, lets assume villain calls shoz with 50% of his stealing range..
yes i know its wide lol...
it would look something like -
22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A8o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o
what hands would u re-raise with?
what if any hands would u call with?
[this is aimed at shoz, if any1 else wants to have a stab at answering then please do so]
tighter still, villain calls only 15% of his 60% steal range -
55+,A9s+,K9s+,Q9s+,JTs,T9s,ATo+,KJo+,QJo
so again, what hands would u re-raise with?
what if any hands would u call with?
now that villain folds 75% of the time, does this make a difference to the above?
[this is aimed at shoz, if any1 else wants to have a stab at answering then please do so]
just something to get the old noodle working :)
On Paul"s point about the 60% steal, if say we are on the button and we know the blinds call or re-raise the top 20% of there range and they fold 80% of the time then .8x.8=64% , 64% of the time the small and big blind will fold, so if we knew this then how wide would you open from the button?
just something to get u thinking shoz :) , what about blockers AXs KXs etc, hmmm no reads , pretty much in the same boat as Q6s no reads imho ;D
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Hi thanks for the posts. I need to have a think about your last post noble and will get back to it
Also, I was wondering is my 3bet size so bad? I kept it consistent with my big hands. I also, this way keep ther pot a tad bit smaller whilst also looking super strong. This guy had folded to a small 3bet of mine already so i knew he was capable of folding this one.
As a side issue he showed up with JJ and berated me. I then proceeded to berate him for being a fish who should"ve bet the river (?)(!)
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3bet 3-4x open
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Hi thanks for the posts. I need to have a think about your last post noble and will get back to it
Also, I was wondering is my 3bet size so bad? I kept it consistent with my big hands. I also, this way keep ther pot a tad bit smaller whilst also looking super strong. This guy had folded to a small 3bet of mine already so i knew he was capable of folding this one.
As a side issue he showed up with JJ and berated me. I then proceeded to berate him for being a fish who should"ve bet the river (?)(!)
i"m taking the dogs for a walk very shortly so quickly my thoughts on bet sizing 100bb"s+ oop, SPR shoz oop is your friend when bigger smaller imho, it leaves less room for the villain in position to out maneuver you.. In position i can see certain situations that met benefit re-raising smaller, you met want a fish to call for instance :)
Start a thread and ask the APATers what there views are on bet sizing IP , OOP , 3BET SIZING, 4BET SIZING etc etc
Also if you use a hud , open up the filters and look at the stats for the regs at 50nl for there avg steal stats, that being the cut off, button and small blind combined, i"ll be very surprised if you find the avg above 25%, also do the 3bet fold %, again you will surprise me if u say the avg for 50nl players isn"t around 50%..
If u don"t use a hud, get one, its great for breaking down your own and others play....
walkies time :)
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A quick reply till I get home and give it some more time.
3 bet size seems a bit small, my preferred size is 9 BB"s ip and 11 BB"s oop.
That you choose to 3 bet bluff Q6s is largely irrelevent as far hand strength so long as you always 3 bet bluff Q6s.
Against this lp raising range a 1:1 mix of value and bluff hands is going to be profitable and this is where the bluff hands you choose are relevent, if you are just indescriminately bluff 3 betting you have no control over your frequencies and can end up 3 bet bluffing too much or not enough. By sticking to a set range of hands you can automatically build in the correct frequency.
Which hands you choose is a personal preference though its often touted as best to use those hands that don"t quite make it into your calling range. Personally I prefer suited A7-AT for their card removal benefits and suited connected cards that flop well and are not dominated.
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Against this lp raising range a 1:1 mix of value and bluff hands is going to be profitable and this is where the bluff hands you choose are relevent, if you are just indescriminately bluff 3 betting you have no control over your frequencies and can end up 3 bet bluffing too much or not enough. By sticking to a set range of hands you can automatically build in the correct frequency.
Which hands you choose is a personal preference though its often touted as best to use those hands that don"t quite make it into your calling range. Personally I prefer suited A7-AT for their card removal benefits and suited connected cards that flop well and are not dominated.
yep there"s an approach that some advocate, on the other hand at 50nl,, as well as employing strategies like snap suggests, please take into account that the reg players on stars are pretty much now thinking at the level of what hands you have, so rather than slipping into trying to balance this and balance that,, you can now start working on what your perceived range is.... when u get a good idea of what the villains perceive your range to be then the fun begins [we play pokers] and all the balance guff goes out of the window, you can now start working out when u can unbalance and bluff more to exploit the way they perceive your range and what lines of play u take with that range, in essence u are exploiting the level of thinking that they are on, not just situations when to bluff but also when to get value out of hands [they perceive u weak when u are not, u are aware of this and exploit it]... 50nl is a good place to start imho to know/learn when to unbalance....
all on how good at hand reading u are, how good u are at judging your image... in summary - by understanding the players u are up against then u can start exploiting them, you"re just thinking 1 level above.......
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Quite hard to comment on the hand without the player stats. Do you have the player stats for seat 9? This is FR which is often a bit of a nitfest but I can"t say I have ever played the game with the ante, so I am not 100% sure what it means.
His raise from the button could be ATC. I don"t mind the three bet at all unless the player is really tight in which case you should just fold (It may be too small, it certainly is in theory, but in practice I think it often works). When he calls your bet I have got him on something. Maybe a broadway type hand, small pair or SC. Some sort of hand that has value, not any two random cards.
We now have a pot of $8.25 and the flop is very good for you. You bet $3.95 which is a little bit small, I would prefer to make it around $5 to $6 and take the odds away from the flush draw. When he calls I think he could have a pocket pair, he could have a flush draw or he could have some kind of queen. He could also be slow playing a monster (ie set) but we don"t need to worry about that yet. Overall I think I am probably good at this point but will be reassess on the turn.
THe 7c is basically a blank on the turn and it should not have helped either of you. The check is good at it controls the pot. When he bets all of the above is still in his range and he is hoping to win the pot there. I think you have to call $9 into a pot of $25.15 as well with top pair against that range. He may be putting you on a standard c-bet on the flop also and it could have been a float.
River bricks and you check, he checks. His range remains the same I would say. I think you have to fold if he bets but he checks most of his range here, and people don"t bluff missed draws on the river to make it profitable to call.
Unless the player has a tight raising range preflop (which is possible in a FR game) I like the way you played this hand. The preflop play creates a tough situation on the turn but if you are going to play those sort of hands pre you just have to handle these.
WP - I am guessing he showed a better Queen?
What did he have???
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for the check call turn brigade :)
http://www.cardrunners.com/poker-videos/video-challenge-finalist-5-matthew-janda/
just press watch now...................... reference - common lines that players take at whatever stake u play at..
now browse thread and look at the common line... :(
edit - i"ll add this as 1... its quite amusing , 2... ohhh so many truths
http://www.cardrunners.com/poker-videos/13-scariest-small-stakes-leaks-of-all-time-przytula/
just press watch now...........................