Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: cgull69 on February 07, 2011, 12:59:50 PM
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Its not often a hand gets to me, but I went to bed last night my mind going 6 to the dozen as to whether I should have played this hand any differently?
It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90
I am the SB and have ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.
The flop then comes jc 9c 9d
I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.
The turn comes 9s .
I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.
River comes ac .
I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show 9h js.
Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
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I raise bigger pre with my entire range when oop.
I bet turn for value.
Im happy getting it in on river.
nh
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My chips are in a second after his at the end, though I think he is more likely to have a J than a flush. Who is not going to be happy to get them in here, as I think you must know?
One thing I don"t like is:
I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am
I hear this kind of thing all the time, but I don"t get it. I can"t see the benefit. I always bet for a reason, but that reason is never for information.
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***In before Noble says fold***
;D ;D ;D
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***In before Noble says fold***
;D ;D ;D
lol, noble won"t be far away.
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nice try , why would i say fold marty?
cgull69 on the turn you thought I now think that button is definitely on a draw
why? did you have a read? why can"t villain not slow play with Jx or see a free card with QT, pot control an under pair TT, giving up with air maybe, 9x can be in the range...
why bet flop?
why not bet turn?
why bet river? what size should u bet?
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My chips are in a second after his at the end, though I think he is more likely to have a J than a flush. Who is not going to be happy to get them in here, as I think you must know?
One thing I don"t like is:
I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am
I hear this kind of thing all the time, but I don"t get it. I can"t see the benefit. I always bet for a reason, but that reason is never for information.
This is an interesting point, the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me. Also I do not want to display any sort of weakness. I must add that this game was not a 2 dollar donkfest and that the player I was up against certainly knows the time of day. I am now thinking that I should have bet the pot on the flop to price him out of calling had he been on a draw, but if he were on a draw would he have called anyway as the implied pot odds would have been in his favour.
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nice try , why would i say fold marty?
Cos he lost the hand...
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nice try , why would i say fold marty?
Cos he lost the hand...
oh, u think the the result will influence, i see ??? u see everything std, i get it marty...
I am now thinking that I should have bet the pot on the flop to price him out of calling had he been on a draw
the implied pot odds would have been in his favour
the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me
i dont like the thought process above, or the thoughts on range on the turn...
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This is an interesting point, the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me.
By betting 1/2 pot we widen villains flop raising range so b/f"n a J99cc board is a really bad idea. B/f"n on any connected/suited flops with overpaids and no solid info on villain is an error.
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First point and its made too often on here, don"t! post results when posting a hand for advise. It completely alters the discussion.
This is an interesting point, the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me.
Depending on the player obviously ( just for you Noble your pet subject it seems) firing a half pot flop bet with the intention of folding to a raise is insanely weak, as is always the case, the correct response is very much opponent dependant and folding to a flop raise would be insane versus one guy while versus a guy at the other end of that spectrum calling would be insane. Simply based on the fact that this guy has called a 3 bet with J9o, I"m highly unlikely to fold in this hand.
Also I do not want to display any sort of weakness. I must add that this game was not a 2 dollar donkfest and that the player I was up against certainly knows the time of day. I am now thinking that I should have bet the pot on the flop to price him out of calling had he been on a draw, but if he were on a draw would he have called anyway as the implied pot odds would have been in his favour.
Weakness is exactly what you should be displaying, when they think they"re good they put $$ in bad (see Marty"s inducing point in post #9 ). Half pot / full pot bet or anywhere in between is a moot point here tbh but it could be argued that half pot looks stronger than full pot on this board.
The hand itself is standard and belongs in a bad beats thread tbh but some of your comments suggest that you don"t seem to grasp the why? in all of this and that is the important aspect.......
why bet flop?
why not bet turn?
why bet river? what size should u bet?
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Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
there is more in this hand than meets the eye, rather than only question pre-flop cgull69, imho u should be breaking down the flop, the turn and river..
question your thought process throughout, what is the plan etc....
for example question flop texture, dry flops or wet flops which are best to cbet without many reads.. u say the opponent is good, mostly on wet textures a good player will see an opportunity to float or re-raise [especially in postion]
what is the plan now?
another example - when u have the initiative whatever the flop imho one of the key questions flop onwards will be if i bet, will better hands fold, will worse hands call etc what are villains tendencies etc... if the opponent is good then perceived ranges [yours and his] especially so in 3bet pots are important to consider...
what is the plan now?
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u say the opponent is good, mostly on wet textures a good player will see an opportunity to float or re-raise [especially in postion]
I really disagree with this. I think good players are way more likely to make moves on dry flops. Id rather raise a c/bet on a K83 rainbow flop than on a 910Jhhh flop. Villains can continue with a wider range on wet boards which makes bluff-raising less profitable. On dry boards (like the one given above), villains can only really continue with top pair hands at worst.
Depending on the player obviously ( just for you Noble your pet subject it seems) firing a half pot flop bet with the intention of folding to a raise is insanely weak, as is always the case, the correct response is very much opponent dependant and folding to a flop raise would be insane versus one guy while versus a guy at the other end of that spectrum calling would be insane. Simply based on the fact that this guy has called a 3 bet with J9o, I"m highly unlikely to fold in this hand.
Very much this, but just to add, in a readless situation I am certainly not b/f"n. It is a very rare occasion/player type we b/f this against and 95%+ of the time we are not folding!!
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so u make a move in a 3bet pot on a dry flop? your not repping a lot are u? is that not why in general its considered not good to try and bluff a good opponent.. if the villain cbet lots of flops i can see re-raising on certain dry textures as ok..
on dry flops, since its difficult to be rarely floating extremely light i also like bluff-raising these flops a bit along with raising them with hands like sets, against good opponents this can be tricky to balance though :)... hmmm nuts or air that is the question lol lol
please note i said wet texture , this could be 9TJ for example , hence a good player especially with position will be attacking your cbets by calling or re-raising....
position, perceived ranges, player tendencies, range v range, fold equity > pot equity , board texture.... all should be taken into account.....
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Thanks for all the input, there are a few points I have taken on board which will hopefully enhance my game going forward.
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you played the hand right lad he just got lucky no one would have played it any different unlucky put your mind at rest you played it right
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Its not often a hand gets to me, but I went to bed last night my mind going 6 to the dozen as to whether I should have played this hand any differently?
It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90
I am the SB and have ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.
The flop then comes jc 9c 9d
I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.
The turn comes 9s .
I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.
River comes ac .
I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show 9h js.
Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
Being the super nit rock that i am lol, i agree with the raise. When i saw the flop i would of been weary and checked as i dont like paired flops and possible flush draw (imo),the turn was even worse so i would of checked again and even when the ace came on the river i would be in two minds whether to check and call a bet or to bet about a quarter of the pot (thinking that i am ahead).The problem with raising is that you would be re raised and then you would be in a dilema. so... i would of probably checked again and lost the minimun. I know it sounds weak but believe me i have lost so many times with aces and remember........its only a pair and also the blinds are still very low so stay in the tournie and dont gett married to your hand :)
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you played the hand right lad he just got lucky no one would have played it any different unlucky put your mind at rest you played it right
sigh , why did he play it ok? oop, no reads, his thought process throughout which he describes in the thread is not ok imho...
on top of that you have the river re-raise shove on this board texture, in todays no-limit game, mostly opponents tend to make very large value-bets or they go for overbetting the pot in the hope that their bet will look like a bluff, imho this strategy still gets used especially in low to medium stakes cos opponents are still paying off lol lol, if the result had not be shown i"d hope at least one person would point this out... the interesting thing here is how the collective tend to always put the villain on hands that hero beats don"t u think?
this bet big for value strategy will turn full circle eventually and everyone will be value betting / raising smaller, knowledge and awareness as they say :)
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this bet big for value strategy will turn full circle eventually and everyone will be value betting / raising smaller, knowledge and awareness as they say :)
[/quote]
iv already tried it. doesnt work yet.
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Being the super nit rock that i am lol, i agree with the raise. When i saw the flop i would of been weary and checked as i dont like paired flops and possible flush draw (imo),the turn was even worse so i would of checked again and even when the ace came on the river i would be in two minds whether to check and call a bet or to bet about a quarter of the pot (thinking that i am ahead).The problem with raising is that you would be re raised and then you would be in a dilema. so... i would of probably checked again and lost the minimun. I know it sounds weak but believe me i have lost so many times with aces and remember........its only a pair and also the blinds are still very low so stay in the tournie and dont gett married to your hand :)
Simply put, if you only bet with the nuts you cannot possibly turn a profit and will be getting owned at the tables, to a half decent hand reader your cards are almost always face up.
sigh , why did he play it ok? oop, no reads, his thought process throughout which he describes in the thread is not ok imho...
on top of that you have the river re-raise shove on this board texture, in todays no-limit game, mostly opponents tend to make very large value-bets or they go for overbetting the pot in the hope that their bet will look like a bluff, imho this strategy still gets used especially in low to medium stakes cos opponents are still paying off lol lol, if the result had not be shown i"d hope at least one person would point this out... the interesting thing here is how the collective tend to always put the villain on hands that hero beats don"t u think?
this bet big for value strategy will turn full circle eventually and everyone will be value betting / raising smaller, knowledge and awareness as they say :)
I increasingly get the feeling from your posts Noble that you somehow feel that reads can lead us to making perfect decisions. Your diligence in the reads department is admirable but I really do think you over estimate the potential for perfect information and completely under estimate this simple fact, the information we have to go on is never perfect and more often than not we are only making a likely best estimate at the max ev option based on the limited information we can glean not to mention how reliable/unreliable that info is.
On to the hand.........
It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90
I am the SB and have ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.
We 3 bet for value 240 is ok but I prefer 270-300 and you should be making this same bet with your 3 bet bluffs though since he called with J9o our 3 bet for value range can be huge here and maybe we shouldn"t balance against him.
The flop then comes jc 9c 9d
I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.
This is a good flop for us ignoring results obviously. We should bet for value against his calling range of Jx"s, combo draws, flush draws, straight draws, QQ+KK (both unlikely but we do get suprised often) 22-TT. Obviously when value betting we sometimes run into better hands and lose but its an aggregate scenario and we come out in profit in the long term.
Again as said earlier, half pot, full pot or somewhere in between are all ok with the oppo"s tendancies the deciding factor, bet the amount that gets him to do what you want him to do.
The turn comes 9s .
I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.
Overall this is a bad card for our hand since its now somewhat likely that villain will not continue with his draws. That being the case we are also unlikely to extract much value should a free card hit his draw so I like betting here, for value versus Jx,JJ,22-TT and the odd draw that mysteriously thinks it has a chance (unlikely but we do get suprised often)
Here I bet half pot max but more likely 400 of our 1810 behind, we want a call from all his range and we leave 1410 behind and pot will be 1810 at the river.
River comes ac .
I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show 9h js.
Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.
Sometimes you run into the top of peoples ranges UL. If you dont value town yourself sometimes you"re not value betting enough.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
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i ask for reads because it is almost impossible to sit at a table and have no read, even if the only read is ""i"ve not seen villain play any hands"" ""villain has been opening lots of pots"" ""this is the 1st time i"ve seen villain call a 3bet"" etc etc etc u get the drift i"m sure... now check the forum, time and time again there are posts with no reads, mostly hero will be oop and sometimes the result is known already :"( add in no stack sizes given, pot sizes or no info on players to act behind etc blah blah....
how can u make more good than bad decisions without reads? u need something to go by..
how can u put an opponent on a range, if u don"t know if he is loose or tight, is he good or bad, do they overvalue top pair, how do they play draws or how do they play monsters...
reads help pinpoint the opponents range based on the action, how they react on the 3 streets, the bet sizing etc ETC..
why are there so few posts without reads?
in summary i have never written with reads u can make perfect decisions, BUT if your reads are more right than wrong then it stands to reason that you"ll make right decisions more than wrong decisions....
add to this that very few posts mention how they the hero are playing [there image] , this can help in analysing situations better don"t you think?
edit - hell i don"t know why i even bother sometimes to reply, i"ll stick to posting on the horses :) its bloody frustrating... is this the rush poker forum?
(http://edge2.pokerlistings.com/assets/photos/_resampled/CroppedImage180320-phil-ivey-34606.jpg)
If you want to be Phil Ivey then Rush may not be for you.It stunts your poker growth ;D
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(http://www.reallyfunnypictures.co.uk/general/pics/23.02.06/chillpill.jpg)
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With the large player pools on modern day sites and the constantly growing live poker scene, playing without reads is a pretty important thing to learn. Knowing how to gather information is very important, but knowing how to play +ev without is as well.
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Especially on the bigger sites. People are comming and going all the time, most people you just dont see again in the smaller stakes sngs, mtts or cash games.
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Its not often a hand gets to me, but I went to bed last night my mind going 6 to the dozen as to whether I should have played this hand any differently?
It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90
I am the SB and have ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.
The flop then comes jc 9c 9d
I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.
The turn comes 9s .
I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.
River comes ac .
I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show 9h js.
Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
HERES MINE YOUR A FISH END OF
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Simply put, if you only bet with the nuts you cannot possibly turn a profit and will be getting owned at the tables, to a half decent hand reader your cards are almost always face up.
i totally agree mate with what you say but im a smart rock and its rare that i get owned at the tables as im unpredictable, ask my team captain technolog ;)
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Tony thanks for your input, most constructive and well thought out.
Not really what I imagined the APAT ethos was about, but hey ho we are all entitled to our own opinions even if they are a tad juvenile.
I look forward to meeting you at the tables next season.
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It"s just a standard cooler IMO and not sure what else can be added. I suspect you wouldn"t have given the hand a second thought had you simply won the hand.
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It"s just a standard cooler IMO and not sure what else can be added. I suspect you wouldn"t have given the hand a second thought had you simply won the hand.
Maybe so, but I posted in this forum as the title says :
"The forum to discuss APAT Academy"s live and online tuition, tournament strategy and hand analysis"
Apart from Tony"s post the contributions made interesting reading, and stimulated some lively debate within the community which I guess was one of its purposes when set up.
All I wanted was some constructive comments, maybe I was asking a little too much.
As a fairly new member to APAT I now expect to be hung drawn and quartered for daring to question the posting of a well established member of the community.
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It"s just a standard cooler IMO and not sure what else can be added. I suspect you wouldn"t have given the hand a second thought had you simply won the hand.
Maybe so, but I posted in this forum as the title says :
"The forum to discuss APAT Academy"s live and online tuition, tournament strategy and hand analysis"
Apart from Tony"s post the contributions made interesting reading, and stimulated some lively debate within the community which I guess was one of its purposes when set up.
All I wanted was some constructive comments, maybe I was asking a little too much.
As a fairly new member to APAT I now expect to be hung drawn and quartered for daring to question the posting of a well established member of the community.
Its disappointing that you allow one post to taint your overall experience in this thread. Aside from Tony"s "special contribution" there is some sound advise to be gleaned from the replies some posters took time write.
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Yes I do appreciate all the helpful posts, and if anyone who made a meaningful contribution is going to the BF live event in London this weekend come and see me and I will buy you a beer to show my appreciation. If not catch up with me at the next APAT event for the same.
And Tony if you are a good boy I will get someone to bring you a coke and a bag of crisps whilst you wait in the car.
With that I feel it is time to draw a line through this thread.
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BOARD - J 9 9 9 A
hero bets AA on river
villain re-raises all in, 1 simple question ""is he betting for value""
if you think yes then what with - obvious JJ [3 combos] and obvious he"ll do it with a 9 [9Ts 1combo 89s 1combo] we will discount AJ TJ etc because of the ace river...
obvious conclusion based on his position and what some would think a good player might call in position
the 3bet was rather small pre-flop 150 more to call and villain has position, if villain is a tad looser pre than what we assume then if you widen his 3bet call range to include A9s J9s 97s then that changes his bet for value range -
JJ - 3COMBO , 9Ts - 1COMBO , 89s - 1COMBO , A9s - 1COMBO , J9s - 1COMBO , 97s - 1COMBO
go back through the bet pattern -
villain bets/calls 3bet J99 flop , hero bets villain calls - what fits?
turn - 9 - hero checks , villain checks - what fits? would villain make a bet here with JJ? or 9x?
river - A - hero bets, villain re-raises with? is he betting for value? what fits?
if villain is good what would he perceive heroes range to be on the river to re-raise all in based on the action pre and post plus how the board panned out?
1 simple question if we think he is betting for value ""what is villain value betting""
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=51871.0
is villain value betting? there are a few more reads in this one :)
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Yes I do appreciate all the helpful posts, and if anyone who made a meaningful contribution is going to the BF live event in London this weekend come and see me and I will buy you a beer to show my appreciation. If not catch up with me at the next APAT event for the same.
And Tony if you are a good boy I will get someone to bring you a coke and a bag of crisps whilst you wait in the car.
With that I feel it is time to draw a line through this thread.
Don"t worry about Tony. He"s got all his medals now, so struggles on things to post about. ;D
Most of the threads in the academy create interesting debate. And there is never a perfect strategy to play, so opinions will always be at the forefront of many a reply.
See you in London.
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Yes I do appreciate all the helpful posts, and if anyone who made a meaningful contribution is going to the BF live event in London this weekend come and see me and I will buy you a beer to show my appreciation. If not catch up with me at the next APAT event for the same.
And Tony if you are a good boy I will get someone to bring you a coke and a bag of crisps whilst you wait in the car.
With that I feel it is time to draw a line through this thread.
i havnt got the one for winning the league AGAIN
Don"t worry about Tony. He"s got all his medals now, so struggles on things to post about. ;D
Most of the threads in the academy create interesting debate. And there is never a perfect strategy to play, so opinions will always be at the forefront of many a reply.
See you in London.
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That"s because there aren"t medals for the online league this season.
You"ll just have to make do with your GUKPT seat instead. ;D
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BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
not really boverd anyhow am a boverd ...
NO
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not really boverd anyhow am a boverd ...
Your signature gives the lie to that statement.
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not really boverd anyhow am a boverd ...
Your signature gives the lie to that statement.
YEAH...BUT NO....BUT YEAH ...BUT NO ,,ERRR...... BUT
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That"s because there aren"t medals for the online league this season.
You"ll just have to make do with your GUKPT seat instead. ;D
Awww, but that would have been my first gold. :"(
Not fair, not playing any more, taking my ball and i"m going home!