Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: kinboshi on December 18, 2007, 14:27:18 PM
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OK, everyone"s favourite hand - KK.
Our hero is in an APAT National, it"s early doors, in fact it"s the first level and the blinds are still 25/50.
Our Hero looks down to see ks kh, and they"re second to act.
Hero raises to 175.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) That"s probably fairly standard? Anyone play that differently here?
Someone in middle position calls. Then the cut-off re-raises to 500 to play.
Our hero then re-raises to 1,500.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) Do you like the re-raise? If you don"t, why not? If you do, what are you trying to achieve?
Middle position then calls.
The cut-off then re-raises to 5,000.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) What do you do now?
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(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) That"s probably fairly standard? Anyone play that differently here?
Early position and this early in the tourney I may limp and see if anyone else raises. If they do I might just call rather than re-raising but I'm also more than prepared to ditch the K's if I don't like how things are proceeding after the flop.
I know this is a bad way to play K's but this early I'm not that keen on getting involved for what could end up being all my chips.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) Do you like the re-raise? If you don"t, why not? If you do, what are you trying to achieve?
Ok assuming I did the right thing and raised in the 1st place I would re-raise here as I want to know where I stand. 1,500 to 2,000
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) What do you do now?
Well it's all in or fold and I'm not going all in this early without A's (I'm such a chicken at times :-[)
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what hand could they possibly re re raise you with? Depends on your read of the player but most players would only do that with AA or possibly KK so ur either splitting or well behind. Maybe tiny chance of QQ but maybe they would have called to see the flop or raised bigger. Surely with AK they would have flat called your re re raise :S i dunno im lost now lol
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As usual I tend to agree with our hero, I might have only re raised to 1000, but we"re only splitting hairs. So with that big a re re raise you have to be up against Aces or AK, or playing Buster Gonad!
So this early in the tourney it is a fold. I laid "em down in a cash game at the weekend after the flop 3 3 A, I raised the original bet, and he moved all in for about $100, couldn"t afford to lose that! In a tourney i would have called , I think! ;)
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Yep, Fold. But then, I"m notoriously tight! And crap!
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OK, everyone"s favourite hand - KK.
Our hero is in an APAT National, it"s early doors, in fact it"s the first level and the blinds are still 25/50.
Our Hero looks down to see ks kh, and they"re second to act.
Hero raises to 175.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) That"s probably fairly standard? Anyone play that differently here?
Whilst it is 3.5 BBs, 175 doesn"t make much of a dent in 10k chips and if you get a caller or two in the next couple of seats , then you are likely to end up with late positions and blinds calling with any two pretty cards. If I"m open-raising from early with this hand I would make it 250-300 to try and chase off the Ace/rags and raggy connectors... Or I may limp/raise.
Someone in middle position calls. Then the cut-off re-raises to 500 to play.
Our hero then re-raises to 1,500.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) Do you like the re-raise? If you don"t, why not? If you do, what are you trying to achieve?
I probably just call and see a flop.
Middle position then calls.
The cut-off then re-raises to 5,000.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) What do you do now?
Dwell up... Umm & Ahh a bit and then Fold muttering something along the lines of "F**king pocket Jacks, I hate them!!"
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(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) Do you like the re-raise? If you don"t, why not? If you do, what are you trying to achieve?
I probably just call and see a flop.
I think you"re right with this here. I call and the explanation I"ve seen from some "good" players convinces me it"s the right thing to do. Interestingly, my reasoning for doing so wasn"t exactly the same as theirs!
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I go with the call initially too. The re-raise gives you information, but with only one hand beating you do you need to raise the value of the pot so early? Also, and most importantly, what hand can you beat that can call this re-raise? Its negative EV for sure. Furthermore should it be called you are out of position for the rest of the hand.
One of the fundamentals of poker is having your bets with strength called by waeker hands. If the bet can never be called by a weaker hand then its an error to bet in the first place.
By raising you also give away the strength of your hand, not something you ideally want to do, flat calling still gives you some range to represent and hopefully get paid off with.
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I would play it exactly the same as Hero but fold to the 5000 bet . It is still just the Ist level and there will be other opportunities to go all in with KK in the later stages of the tourney.
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I must be a rubbish live player because I would be all in :D
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...
Hero raises to 175.
(http://www.apat.com/forum/Themes/theme1/images/post/question.gif) That"s probably fairly standard? Anyone play that differently here?
Nothing wrong with that, I might sometimes limp from early position to disguise the strength of the hand, but generally a standard raise seems right.
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Someone in middle position calls. Then the cut-off re-raises to 500 to play.
Our hero then re-raises to 1,500.
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I"d flat call.
Without any read on the player you can"t assume that the player either does or doesn"t know what he"s doing.
You hope he"s not re-raising with aces, but he could be reraising with a wide range of hands - nearly all of them you"re ahead preflop.
If the flop contains an ace and he calls or raises a continuation bet then I"d probably end up ditching the kings.
If it doesn"t, then the texture will give you an idea of where to go - a flushing board might be worrying, or his pocket pair hitting a set could be a problem. Basically I would see his response to my continuation bet on the flop and take it from there.
This way you might fold and give some chips away to a mediocre player who has played badly, but that"s better than giving away all your chips to a good player who has played well.
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OK lets look at the options here
1. Call - Flop comes Q high, with so much in pot and out of position you have to push and if he has underpair and has tripped up you are fecked, if he has AA you were beat anyway, if he has underpair and missed you dont get paid, if he has AK he should call as he is priced against an underpair and you still risk him hitting A on turn or river. An A comes, you have to make a continuation bet into a 10k pot, to see where you are, so probably 2500 minimum, you have commited 3/4 of your stack and have to pass to a re-raise, so you are pretty well crippled early on.
2. Fold - If with the limited info at hand you put him on AA might fold, although the chances of him having AA when you hold KK are 24.5:1 and you are only going to see it once every 542 hands played.
3. Push - if you push and he has AK, QQ or below, he should be putting you on AA or KK and should pass. If he doesn"t and he has AK you are 72-28 fave, if he has an underpair you are 80-20 fave. If in the unlikely event (See above) that he has AA, then you are virtually priced in anyway.
I think on balance you have to push here. The only reason we are folding here is because it is early in the tournament. Is that really a good enough reason?
At the very worst you run into AA and either go home saying you got cold decked or you dish out a bad beat and he goes home with a bad beat story. A win-win situation if I ever heard one. ;)
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But do you make the 1,500 re-raise in the first place?
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would prob make it 2k to play so not much difference, when he reraises to 5k you cant flat call so u gotta decide whether its all in or fold, online when im multitabling im going all in 95 percent + of the time, live it depends on ur read and also depends on ur reason for being in the tournament, i want to win and would find it hard to put it down, if he has aces im off to the bar to moan about my "bad luck". Change the hand to qq or jj and im foldin 95 percent of the time when he reraises to 5 k but at least you find out cheap that u were either far behind or 50 50 at best
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What good does your re-raise do? Does it not just declare your hand to your opponent (as either KK or AA)?
What are you trying to achieve with the re-raise?
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As Kinboshi says, "why re raise?"
...depends on ur reason for being in the tournament, i want to win ...
You don"t win a tournament by getting knocked out early.
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i want to take the flop heads up for a start assuming im ahead with my KK i only want one hand drawing at me on the flop. Theres already money in the pot too and if i only take down a small pot at this stage of the tournament im not too dissapointed. Also by flat calling you have no way of knowing how strong your opponent is. Also what you do i guess depends how youve been playing previous pots, if youve been playing very tight maybe its best to just flat call if you want to trap or decieve your opponent on the flop but if youve been in a lot of pots raising and reraising then i think you have to make that reraise because of the chance of getting action from TT JJ QQ and pos more marginal hands.
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And whilst were on the subject just played this hand:
PokerStars Game #14177792297: Tournament #71192044, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/12/29 - 12:02:21 (ET)
Table "71192044 66" 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: J_Leloup (3090 in chips)
Seat 2: DeNiro10 (2980 in chips)
Seat 3: sebure (3000 in chips)
Seat 4: TESIK (2990 in chips)
Seat 5: salprmi (2960 in chips)
Seat 6: rwing (2960 in chips)
Seat 7: IvyPants (3000 in chips)
Seat 8: soaz1 (3000 in chips)
Seat 9: hi_am_chris (3000 in chips)
rwing: posts small blind 10
IvyPants: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hi_am_chris [Ah Ac]
soaz1: folds
hi_am_chris: raises 80 to 100
J_Leloup: raises 200 to 300
DeNiro10: folds
sebure: calls 300
TESIK: folds
salprmi: folds
rwing: folds
IvyPants: folds
hi_am_chris: raises 700 to 1000
J_Leloup: raises 2090 to 3090 and is all-in
sebure: folds
hi_am_chris: calls 2000 and is all-in
sebure said, "hope u r not fishes"
*** FLOP *** [9d 7d Ts]
*** TURN *** [9d 7d Ts] [Td]
sebure said, "folded QQ"
*** RIVER *** [9d 7d Ts Td] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hi_am_chris: shows [Ah Ac] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
J_Leloup: shows [Kd Kh] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
hi_am_chris collected 6330 from pot
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Didn"t the player with Kings do what you"d suggest to do?
And get knocked out in the early stages?
How does this win tournaments?
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yep :D i go back to my other argument, its easier to lay them down live and shut up lol
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Another similar hand, some may have read it in current issue of a poker magazine...
Event full tilt 1000 dollar super monday event
players 30
Stacks Hero 3000 Villain 2970
blinds 10 and 20 with 10 ante
Villain raises to 60
Hero reraises to 288 holding AA
Villain reraises to 894
Hero reraises to 3k and is all in
Villain folds
Villain had kk is this good play by the villain?
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My main point would be - rather than all the raising, reraising, rereraising - isn"t it better to have some play post flop.
It takes 5 cards to make a hand - so having all your chips end up in the middle preflop, when you only know 2 of them can"t often be that sensible a move can it?
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Another similar hand, some may have read it in current issue of a poker magazine...
Event full tilt 1000 dollar super monday event
players 30
Stacks Hero 3000 Villain 2970
blinds 10 and 20 with 10 ante
Villain raises to 60
Hero reraises to 288 holding AA
Villain reraises to 894
Hero reraises to 3k and is all in
Villain folds
Villain had kk is this good play by the villain?
The villain"s re-raise pre-flop is a mistake. It doesn"t give him any more information - instead it just provides the hero with more information.
If the villain had called here, he"d then be able to assess the flop - maybe even pushing all-in on the flop and putting the AA to the test (a push on the flop might suggest a flopped set for example).
When you bet you want a hand better than yours to fold, and a worse hand to call. Help the opponent make a mistake. Re-raising pre-flop here with KK helps the opponent make the correct decision. They"d fold a smaller pocket pair, and come over the top with aces.
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And what about the fold? good play or bad play?
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After the raise, and the opponent"s re-raise, then yes - the fold is correct, as I make my opponent"s range AA.
However, I know many people (if not most), disagree with me here and wouldn"t lay down the KK. The first KK thread that ThinkerJE started was about calling all-in with KK first hand in a deep-stack event. Most would call.
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the only reason i ask that was because in the magazine i got it from it said the worst part of the hand was the fold, for the same reason u said about the fourth bet/raise, by reraising to 894 you gained nothing. All you did was find a way to fold kk which it says should never be your goal when you are dealt it. If he calls the flop and it comes three babies and he stacks of his chips it would be better play then making that reraise and folding
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the only reason i ask that was because in the magazine i got it from it said the worst part of the hand was the fold, for the same reason u said about the fourth bet/raise, by reraising to 894 you gained nothing. All you did was find a way to fold kk which it says should never be your goal when you are dealt it. If he calls the flop and it comes three babies and he stacks of his chips it would be better play then making that reraise and folding
Agree with most of that. I"m not making the re-raise, so I wouldn"t be stuck with making the fold in the first place. I can"t see how the fold is the big mistake though, surely the raise that puts the player in that situation is the mistake. Calling the all-in when you think/know you"re behind to AA is merely compounding the error.
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i still think i prefer the reraise in the original example but as with all things poker it depends on your image, your opponents image and your own style. I prefer the reraise to 1500 simply because i dont know when he reraises to 500 what his hand is, he could do that with any pair 77 through to AA or depending on the player it could be weaker hands such as rag ace or two pictures or even a squeeze play with any two cards.
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I hear what you"re saying - but what does the re-raise say to him? What do you actually get from the raise?
When you bet, you want the other player to make a mistake - i.e. fold when they"re ahead, or call when they"re behind.
If they have TT (for example) and your re-raise gets them to fold, then you"ve helped them to make the right decision. They"ll fold, and you"ll win a little (not a bad outcome, but not the most you could have made from the hand, probably).
If they have AA, then your re-raise is a mistake in that it either makes you call for your whole stack when you"re a big underdog, or fold with all those extra chips in the pot.
To me, the re-raise doesn"t help you define their hand - but helps them define yours. That helps them to play "perfect" poker, when you want them to be the one making the mistakes.
Like you said, it definitely helps if you know the other player. But the situation surrounding this hand is that it"s early doors - so you probably have little or no information on your opponent (unless you have history with them).
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By the way, love the 288 raise by the fella with AA! Random bet-amounts rule!
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Its very early in the tournament and with the raise i guess it stops players with pp"s 55 and up or whatever "set mining" (read that somewhere). If they call with a small pair and flop a set how easy is it to get away from your kings when the flop comes 2 6 9. If you havent reraised anyone yet you probably do get more value from calling the 500 as you said but if youve been very active in the first few pots you could get action from an AK or QQ JJ TT even making the reraise. Another thing to consider is the standard of players in the tournament in the first couple of rounds. As good players (unlike myself) put it theres a lot of dead money in the pot who may make plays with inferior hands. I dont think either way of playing it is wrong, there are so many things to consider.
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And his reasoning for the 288 bet was in his own words "the raise looks like i could have AK. If i make a standard reraise to 200, his odds for set-mining are way too good" also he says if he assumes the only hands the player is going to play back with are AK QQ and KK its best to build as big a pot pre flop as possible
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The standard of the opposition does matter. Also the structure of the tournament is important too.
In a short-stack, fast structured tournament then you have to "gamble" early and if you get knocked out, it"s on to the next one.
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And his reasoning for the 288 bet was in his own words "the raise looks like i could have AK. If i make a standard reraise to 200, his odds for set-mining are way too good" also he says if he assumes the only hands the player is going to play back with are AK QQ and KK its best to build as big a pot pre flop as possible
He could have made it 300 - but I like the 288!
But like he"s said - his bet doesn"t declare his hand, whereas the re-raise by the player with KK does. The 288 bet is to induce a mistake from his opponent (with a pocket pair), not to "gain information".
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I think Playing AK here is far more problematic. Later on in a tournament, you"re quite happy to "get them in", but early doors it"s not a hand you want to risk a lot with.
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I take your point about the reraise declaring the player with KK"s hand more so. With AK and deep apat stacks i have no problem letting it go early on, the advantage late on is that depending on stack sizes your going to get called much more by A10 to AQ and also calling all in with ak deep in tournys is probably has a positive expectation due to the amount of short stacks who will push with weak aces
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Yes - agree with that. I"m hoping to get AA early doors in a National - going to see if I can get someone to call a shove. Knowing my luck someone with TT will, and they"ll hit a straight...
I have another question though. Are we the only two on the forum?
;D
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I have another question though. Are we the only two on the forum?
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No, but I"m too busy pondering the question, "Is Kinboshi an APAT star?"
;)
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Dunno - but you"re definitely a star Jon.
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lol guess not but i think Jon is the only other person that regularly checks this board
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I nearly posted a hand history yesterday of a KK running into trouble by getting all their (substantial) chip stack in pre flop where they could have avoided trouble by just seeing the flop first.
But I didn"t think the player who won played very well either, so I decided that wasn"t such a great example.
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Post it. Call the thread KK - Part IV.
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It"s too basic.
I think some more hand analysis is needed on more complex situations.
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Tikay posted this on another forum:
2 hands later - the third hand of the Tourney, Pete L Raises, there"s a RR behind, Red moves all-in with the Aces, Pete somehow let go, after the customary acting, (his game must have improved, I"ve never seen him Pass before) & Red found a customer with Kings - a no-brainer play.
Raise, re-raise, re-re-raise all-in.
"No-brainer" call with KK?
Just wondering what range Red could have here (a player who all the players know, and a player who is known for having a solid game).
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What good does your re-raise do? Does it not just declare your hand to your opponent (as either KK or AA)?
What are you trying to achieve with the re-raise?
Yes you are saying exactly that.
If he is good enough he then passes a lower pair. Actually I think I raise to 2k not just 1500, a 1000 re-raise from 500 looks like a pair but not a premium pair or maybe even looks like AK, it is calleable by a low pair looking to hit a set and is dangerous. 2k should scare him off, and at this early stage with 3k+ in middle I"m happy to take that size of pot down. If he then re-raises to 5k my chips are going in, so he is in no doubt what i have, and like I said earlier if it happens to be the 542nd hand and he does have AA then so be it, I go home complaining about the poker gods and how could they do it to me etc etc etc.
Actually I had two hands very similar to this, one I had KK utg+1 and the betting pattern was virtually identical, against an UTG limp raiser it felt like he had bullets but in fact when the cards turned over he had QQ, I took all his chips and sailed through the bubble to finish 5th in a £150 freezeout. The 2nd in a different tournie I had AA UTG and the betting was virtually identical again he had KK and I took all his chips. It"s a funny game. ;)
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Why do you want him to pass a lower pair? Don"t you want him to make a mistake?
Doesn"t the raise just help the opponent play perfect poker? Isn"t the idea to make the opponent make a mistake?
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gettin bored of this thread lol theres still a chance jj and qq will play with u and call your bet bet of 1500 or 2000 and procede to stack off against you when the flop comes three babys and youve probably got hands that had a good chance of taking most of your chips (small pairs) when the flop comes three babys and they make a set.
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You make the raise, and the flop comes Jxx. He then shoves.
What do you do? If you"re calling for your whole stack on the flop anyway, why not just shove pre?
(if you"re bored with it, you don"t have to read it or reply ;))
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You make the raise, and the flop comes Jxx. He then shoves.
What do you do? If you"re calling for your whole stack on the flop anyway, why not just shove pre?
(if you"re bored with it, you don"t have to read it or reply ;))
You have already pushed because you are first to act. ;)
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Why do you want him to pass a lower pair? Don"t you want him to make a mistake?
Doesn"t the raise just help the opponent play perfect poker? Isn"t the idea to make the opponent make a mistake?
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I don"t necessarily want him to pass but I want as many chips in the middle as possible when I"m ahead.
If he hasnt got AA then he has ALREADY made the mistake, of re-raising you. As I said, to take down a pot of this size this early pre-flop has to be good.
Of course if he has a lower pair and is too stupid to realise you have AA or KK and he calls your chips are going in on flop anyway, since you are first to act. So what is the point of holding back pre-flop?
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So why aren"t you pushing pre-flop if you"re shoving on the flop regardless?
Are you giving him the chance to hit a set, or are you going to be laying your hand down if there"s an ace on the board?
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So why aren"t you pushing pre-flop if you"re shoving on the flop regardless?
Are you giving him the chance to hit a set, or are you going to be laying your hand down if there"s an ace on the board?
Cos I want more than 500 of his chips.
I did say if he re-raises to 5k i"m pushing. But if I push after he has raised to 500 he can only call if he has AA. If I re-raise to 2000 and he has QQ or JJ he might feel the need to re-re-raise to firmly establish my hand, so i get more of his chips and we either go in with me well ahead or he passes. If he flat calls the 2k I still got 8k to play with on the flop, but if he re-raises i"m pushin.
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I definitely see the logic to what you"re saying.
This is the response from a decent tournament player on another forum where the problem was first posted:
That"s the wrong way to look at it. As I said earlier, when you make it 1500 it narrows YOUR range. And as James says, we want to WIN the most amount of chips possible.
When you make it 1500 the hand becomes so much easier to play. You have told the table what you have, and you assume they act accordingly. As such, if they are competent you can fold and feel good about it when they 5 bet. And they"ll fold every hand you beat preflop so you don"t risk getting dogged or outplayed and win a small pot risk free.
Needless to say, when you try and make hands easier to play you drastically reduce your EV. We want to flatcall the 500 because his range for making it 500 is probably going to be JJ+ // AKo+. He may also repop with stuff like AQ and 1010 (he probably shouldn"t - but what people should do and do do are very different things). When you raise, he only continues with AA most of the time. Sometimes he would be willing to get it in with QQ or AK but it is very unlikely and quite uncommon.
We WANT to play a flop against JJ or QQ or AK or 1010 or AQ. We don"t want to make a play that gives them the best chance to fold preflop. Plus, we have position on the 3 bettor. So if the flop comes low we just play poker with position on the player who has shown the most strength. There will be 1500 in the pot and 9.5k behind - so we can do a lot of different things after the flop and we don"t have to go broke.
Bear in mind that big tournaments are filled with really crap players. Even many regular circuit professionals are technically awful poker players that have massively exploitable leaks. As such, we shouldn"t be averse to taking a flop here.
Remember:
- Raise if better hands will fold;
- Raise if worse hands will call;
When you make it 1500, it is highly unlikely that either of the above happen (particularly the first one!!). Raising for information is always bad. But it"s particularly bad in this spot. By this I mean raising to 1500 to see if he has AA would just be god awful.
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I see the logic behind his argument too. There are several ways to play this and each one has its merits. Of course the biggest problem here is that we don"t know the other player from Adam and haven"t had enough time to build up a picture of his play.
I"m going to post one of my own, this time with AA in BB against a serial raiser. Let"s see what everyone does with this. ;)
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I see the logic behind his argument too. There are several ways to play this and each one has its merits.
Ain"t poker brilliant!!?
Of course the biggest problem here is that we don"t know the other player from Adam and haven"t had enough time to build up a picture of his play.
I think that"s a big part of my thinking here. Same with the issue of calling an all-in pre-flop in the first few hands with KK or laying it down. It"s going to be easy to know if I have KK early in Cardiff - I"ll be giggling uncontrollably.
I"m going to post one of my own, this time with AA in BB against a serial raiser. Let"s see what everyone does with this. ;)
Off to have a look ;D
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:D
4th Hand of APAT Scandinavian.
Mid posn raises 80 to 100
SB reraises up to 400
MP calls
Raggy unconnected flop.
SB checks
MP bets all in - approx 3500 into approx 800 pot.
What do you reckon the SB had?
And when will people ever learn?
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I would shove esp. in an APAT national. If he has AA fair play- however in a national I would probably see him turn over QQ, JJ a lot of the time and maybe even AK AQ or 10,10.
I won"t mention the person but in Luton I made a standard raise UTG with QQ- got re raised all in from the big blind- dwelled for ages, almost folded but ended up calling (fish) and for shown 10,10
At a higher standard of play I fold (no disrespect to anyone, we"re all amateurs here) tho I suspect a pro player may take a different line with AA.......
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As I have stated previously in short stacked tournies with kk it"s an easy reraise preflop and then push to his rereraise, but in a deep stack tourny I would still reraise, but fold to his rereraise. Yes my reraise IS announcing my hand, but that does gain me information. In poker information is king! his rereraise in some respects is the mistake in the hand, as that announces his hand as likely to be AA and allows you to get away for only 1500-2000 chips.
In my defence this almost exact situation happened to me last night during second hour of play. I raised, was rerasied, I then rereraised with kk and they pushed - I folded and stayed in.
Any play that saved you from elimination - how can that be deemed incorrect? their reaction to your reraise helps you define their hand, allowing you to make the CORRECT play.
;D
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If you"re folding KK often in a tournament- I see it as -EV. In an aggressive game people are 3 betting with AK, AQ and often 99+
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It depends how greedy you wanna be in a deepstacked tourny, if you raise to 1500 maybe u just take down the pot but you also dont allow you opponent a cheap flop with a small pair or weakish ace to hit. On a flop of 2 7 10 how easy is it to fold your kings when if youd reraised you might have got rid of pocket 7"s. I still think even when you raise to 1500 you could get action from a lot of hands your beating but part of it depends on the quality of the field
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:D
4th Hand of APAT Scandinavian.
Mid posn raises 80 to 100
SB reraises up to 400
MP calls
Raggy unconnected flop.
SB checks
MP bets all in - approx 3500 into approx 800 pot.
What do you reckon the SB had?
And when will people ever learn?
MP had KK, SB had AA.
my problem with this play is - why shove all in post flop?
The blinds are 10-20 and you"re risking 3500 to win 800.
If the SB checked because he missed the flop then a continuation bet will see him off.
If the SB checked to slow play trips for example you"re making his life very easy.
Even if he incorrectly calls your pot or 3/4 pot continuation bets and then happens to hit trips with a medium pair for example - you"ve got unlucky, but you"ve still got enough chips left to fight back and you lost the pot due to his mistake not yours. In the long run this kind of play will benefit you and penalise him.
At the end of the day the average winning hand in holdem is two pair - so unless the tournament situation demands you"re forced to - why risk your tournament life when you only have one pair?
No matter how good a pair it is, it"s still lower than the average you need to win a hand.
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Whats the average winning hand when pots go heads up to the flop?
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75o v 82o
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Who was the tourney pro you talked the hand over with Kin?
I like the fact his advice, allbeit more verbose than mine, was vaguely similar!
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Who was the tourney pro you talked the hand over with Kin?
I like the fact his advice, allbeit more verbose than mine, was vaguely similar!
It was me of course, just pretending it was someone else.
No, it wasn"t - obviously.
It"s a bloke called Lloyd. Don"t know much more about him, other than he knows his stuff with regards to tournament poker. I like the way he thinks about the game and find myself nodding along in agreement with his posts.
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Bah, there was me hoping it was Roland deWolfe
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Who was the tourney pro you talked the hand over with Kin?
I like the fact his advice, allbeit more verbose than mine, was vaguely similar!
It was me of course, just pretending it was someone else.
No, it wasn"t - obviously.
It"s a bloke called Lloyd. Don"t know much more about him, other than he knows his stuff with regards to tournament poker. I like the way he thinks about the game and find myself nodding along in agreement with his posts.
Lloyd deLion.....great player from Dublin.
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Is dat da fella?
;D