Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: LongshanksED on May 24, 2011, 21:16:57 PM
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wild player open shoving every other hand or massive 7-9X opening bet and has been shown to have anything from any 2 suited cards to J3o and always very vocal
final table and he"s UTG+1
8 handed 300/600 and wild player open shoves approx 5500into my BB (i have approx 8000, rest of table is betwen 2000 and 12000)
folded to me in BB and i peek at my cards and have a wry chuckle and shake my head as i see 62o, as i do this he says youer folding right? you fold? and then whilst i still have the cards in my hand he puts his cards into the muck but still holding them by the end
as soon as i see this i say, "stop, dont move but i call" and ask the TD who is at the table observing "i win the pot right?" and at the same time the player pulls his cards out and flips over aces.
TD then says yes i won the pot as my cards were the only ones live and we dont even need to run the board as his were mucked and the guy goes mental saying that i was cheating
then another player said i was unsporting and was angleshooting and was out of order
i just said, guy made a mistake and its the only way you learn
?????
i know one time in a self deal tourney, as i was dealing i raised with QQ in a 5 way limped pot and then mistakenly mucked when i thought everyone had folded but infact i got one call and ive learned not to do it again
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House rule dependent but in general his hand should have been ruled live as they were clearly identifiable (he"s still holding them)
Angle on your part.
Some might call it cheating....I wouldn"t be so rude. Some would and "car park" you later.
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Naughty 8)
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I agree with Paulie here.
Blatant angle shoot, and you know it. Please don"t do this at an APAT event :)
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Ouch...
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not really seeing this is an angle shoot, certainly not the way it"s described anyway. You looked at your cards, and may have shaken your head, chuckled, etc, but you didn"t fold. He told you that you were folding and chose to put his cards into the muck before you had acted - that"s his problem.
That said though, as his cards were clearly identifiable after the mistake, they should stay live and the hand should go to showdown.
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not really seeing this is an angle shoot, certainly not the way it"s described anyway.
Sorry to disagree but this is totally an angleshoot...OP tried to take advantage of the V with a "loose" interpretation of a "muck" (which it wasn"t)...KNOWING that the OP was never calling without the V making a "mistake".
OP got on the right side of a wrong decision....If I"m the floor both players get a warning and told to knock it off.
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Ok so if the guy just standard raises and before OP gets chance to fold does exactly the same does it change the situation?
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Ok so if the guy just standard raises and before OP gets chance to fold does exactly the same does it change the situation?
not sure what you are getting at here, he is shooting against the personality of the guy on the table and trying to get one up on someone who is annoying. If this was a normal guy and a normal raise, then 62 goes straight in the muck.
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just meant if they both have chips behind and he decides to muck his hand before bb has made a decision in the big blind why should he get his cards back? just wait for bb to make a decision either way
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just meant if they both have chips behind and he decides to muck his hand before bb has made a decision in the big blind why should he get his cards back? just wait for bb to make a decision either way
The V shouldn"t have tried to "muck" without being sure that the BB had folded but the general rule is that the cards are not completely dead until they are unidentifiable amongst the rest of the muckpile.
In this case, the OP clearly stated that the V was holding on to them so they were identifiable...the muckpile doesn"t (despite what some may think) have magical powers to render a hand dead merely by having been touched.
The V gets his chips back if his hand is live...which it is.
The angle comes from trying to get the hand declared dead when it wasn"t....and the OP knows it and is trying to get someone to agree with him so he can justify the move.
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not really seeing this is an angle shoot
I agree - it"s more like cheating.
When you say you "won" the pot, does that mean you got his 5500 as well as the blinds and he was eliminated? Trying to get people"s hands killed on tenuous grounds is one of the lowest acts in poker. If you actually got him eliminated you have no conscience.
The angle comes from trying to get the hand declared dead when it wasn"t....and the OP knows it and is trying to get someone to agree with him so he can justify the move.
+1. The OP should be made to call the all-in and hope for the best.
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Way I see it as soon as the cards touch the muck, even if he is still holding them their dead, you read stories and watched highlights of dealer error of mucking cards and players losing the pot. Remember it happened at WSOP. once in they cant be retrieved nor should they be.
Same as a bettng line. Say you moved your chips over the line to call an all in on river but don"t say anything kept your hand on them and Villian turns over a better hand, should you be able to pull your chips back over the line? No of course not, it why it"s there, to prevent mistakes and make actions accountable
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not really seeing this is an angle shoot
I agree - it"s more like cheating.
Bit strong that John, it"s not cheating it is within the rules of the game.
However it is an angle shoot. I would hope most TD"s would have the common sense to rewind the action to where the OR has shoved and allow the OP to muck his hand. You can"t say the call has to stand as technically speaking the OP is right and only called as the other player had mucked his hand.
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Way I see it as soon as the cards touch the muck, even if he is still holding them their dead, you read stories and watched highlights of dealer error of mucking cards and players losing the pot. Remember it happened at WSOP. once in they cant be retrieved nor should they be.
As always, house dependent but the "accepted" rule is that if they are clearly identifiable (as in this case) then they can be retrieved and are live.
RROP: (http://www.homepokertourney.com/roberts-rules-of-poker.htm)
Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
...but whatever the argument General Rule 1 applies.
1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
In this case...it"s an angle and I"ll call it like I see it.
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not really seeing this is an angle shoot
I agree - it"s more like cheating.
Bit strong that John, it"s not cheating it is within the rules of the game.....However it is an angle shoot.
Yeah, you"re right. I just hate this kind of thing. I saw a player get someone else"s hand killed in an APAT tournament just because their cards were too far forward. There were lots of chips in on the River and he had clearly lost the hand - couldn"t believe I was on my own in saying their hand should be live.
You can"t say the call has to stand as technically speaking the OP is right and only called as the other player had mucked his hand.
IMO the hand was still live - not mucked. The rewind you suggest may be the most sensible thing to do, though I would be reluctant as he did call. How can you claim that you only called to try to get an unfair advantage but, if you"re not getting that, you don"t want the call to stand?
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TD has not got a clue bad TD imo.His cards where still live. You new what you where doing .You diden.t like the loud vocal you where been OUT PLAYED with 79of j3of this is a very good player imo .BUT if your trying to tell me this was good play on your part to learn the loud vocal player a lesson the player that was OUT PLAYING you .Sorry it dos.ent wash with me .Hes still holding his cards .You no the rules his cards are still live. You no that dont tell me you dont .I have to agree with john and paulie D on this 100 persent.also sack the TD
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I saw a player get someone else"s hand killed in an APAT tournament just because their cards were too far forward. There were lots of chips in on the River and he had clearly lost the hand
Say what now?
Floor!
couldn"t believe I was on my own in saying their hand should be live.
Nor should you have been....THIS is why people should know the rules.
"Protect Your Hand" means more than sticking a protector on it...it means knowing the "general" rules, knowing the "house" rules (where different), not acting before it"s your turn BUT making sure you know what"s going on around you and...so much more.
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not really seeing this is an angle shoot
I agree - it"s more like cheating.
Bit strong that John, it"s not cheating it is within the rules of the game.
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If the ruling is correct then it"s angle shooting - because it"s within the rules of the game
If the ruling is incorrect then it"s cheating.
Generally I think the ruling was incorrect for the obvious reasons already stated that the hand was identifiable - but I also think that the TD"s word should stand as the final arbiter.
In a "properly" run tournament, therefore, I"d count it as cheating.
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Could it be argued that the Villain was also shooting an angle by half mucking his cards before the OP had completed his action - therefore dictating the OP"s action for him?
both players at fault here imo. If the villain makes his shove, then sits with the cards on the table until everyone else has completed their actions before he touches his cards again, there is no issue and no opportunity for an issue.
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Could it be argued that the Villain was also shooting an angle by half mucking his cards before the OP had completed his action - therefore dictating the OP"s action for him?
Being a d-bag, yes...bordering on an angle...but HE knew his hand was live since he hadn"t let go.
Bad ruling (from what we know)...and they were both at fault...but the OP moreso.
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You were fine until the point you tried to take advantage by saying don"t do anything I call. Instead of trying to get excited by trying to steal the pot on a technicality a ruling should have been requested at this point. Poor ruling was given though
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final table and he"s UTG+1
8 handed 300/600 and wild player open shoves approx 5500 into my BB
Oh...and one more thing...with less than 10BB...I"M shoving ATC into the middle too.
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Villain is stupid, ruling is stupid and your actions are questionable.
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Villain is stupid, ruling is stupid and your actions are questionable.
This +1
[/end thread]
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Im pretty sure his hand is dead. But i hate it, it"s an angle shoot that a guy who probably doesn"t play much let alone get to the final table and you"ve made him have a horrible experience. I love "angle shooting to get loose calls and bad folds -"moodying" but not like this... Personal opinion please don"t take any offence
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Villain is stupid, ruling is stupid and your actions are questionable.
+1, you would not be on my Christmas card list after this move. Surely not the spirit of the game from an APAT member
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This type of angle shooting is bad form and I agree with previous posts, but this rule about cards being easily identifiable after they have touched the muck and deemed still live is not the norm as far as I am aware.
In G or Grosvenor casinos if they touch the muck they are dead. No ambiguity.
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"[1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.]"
This is a great rule in theory. I have never seen this applied.
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... this rule about cards being easily identifiable after they have touched the muck and deemed still live is not the norm as far as I am aware.
In G or Grosvenor casinos if they touch the muck they are dead. No ambiguity.
Quote
"[1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.]"
This is a great rule in theory. I have never seen this applied.
It is true that neither of these rules are broadly applied - but that"s only because the misaprehension about the magical powers of the muck is very widespread.
The fairness rule doesn"t come up very often, but it is almost universally accepted as correct.
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Villain is stupid, ruling is stupid and your actions are questionable.
+1, you would not be on my Christmas card list after this move. Surely not the spirit of the game from an APAT member
im going to ask santa if we can have an apat tourney on christmasday but witch one of the apat players can be santa .photoes please