Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: I Q8Holds I on July 28, 2011, 00:07:35 AM
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Okay This is a hand from 25/50 ukipt.
I am sat between probarly the 2 best players ive ever played against Chris downling and George2Loose[Knewly crowned 4BetGeorge]
The rest of the table are retards peeling like theyre sunburnt and playing awful
Chris dowling hasn"t been super aggresive but has won like every hand hes played [played them in an aggresive way]
Guy opens from mid postion to 200 Chris dowling 3bets to 700 [First 30mins first hand hes played]
we all have 15k starting stack
We look down at qh qs and flat call
Flop: :3h: :3s: 4h
He leads for 1k , we flat.
Turn th
He checks we lead for 800, he calls
River 7s
He checks we check
[Opnion on play any diffrent lines people can suggest?]
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Looks fine to me...he rolls AK with a heart?
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Ill post results later :o need bed and let other people post opnions ;)
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I play it pretty much the same, though would bet more on turn.
Can you give the reasoning behind this bet size on the turn?
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I play it pretty much the same, though would bet more on turn.
Can you give the reasoning behind this bet size on the turn?
yes 800 seems a bit weird
and a missed opportunity on the river as he has given up the aggression on the turn, a value bet there is always good..
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think that after the way the hand plays out, a value bet on the river is definitely in order and is probably getting called.
Why the tiny bet on the turn?
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think that after the way the hand plays out, a value bet on the river is definitely in order and is probably getting called.
Why the tiny bet on the turn?
what worse hands call the river?
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think that after the way the hand plays out, a value bet on the river is definitely in order and is probably getting called.
Why the tiny bet on the turn?
what worse hands call the river?
Dont see any value in betting the turn or river, even his monsters AhXh, AA,KK,TT, become bluff catchers on that turn.
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It was 1/3 on the turn to purely protect my hand and gain a bit of value... Thinking about it I should of bet more as he has 14 outs.
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Clear value bet with Ur image. I"m fact your missing so much value if Ur not betting these spots
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what worse hands call the river? cmon guys u know oppo"s style don"t u?
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It was 1/3 on the turn to purely protect my hand and gain a bit of value... Thinking about it I should of bet more as he has 14 outs.
Spoiler alert ;D
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Clear value bet with Ur image. I"m fact your missing so much value if Ur not betting these spots
No mention of image in op George, its only 30 mins into the tourney right?
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Clear value bet with Ur image. I"m fact your missing so much value if Ur not betting these spots
No mention of image in op George, its only 30 mins into the tourney right?
Yeh but you"ve already shown the 52 suited and been fairly active. Plus your young and wearing a hoody.
Chris is a good player and like all good players he"s capable of putting his cape on once in a while. He might call you with AK high/most pairs. 10x hands which is was c betting. Saying he never calls worse is wrong imo. Like he just folds 99, 10x and worse
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[most pairs 10x etc] so he 3bets wide then? why was that not mentioned in the post George/Q8 ? plus the 52s and how active u"ve been?
in that that case your turn bet could look bluffy which would set up a thin call by oppo on the river.. likewise you"ll have to think about the sizing imo, if oppo isn"t that faint hearted he could check raise bluff the river and set u a tough decision...
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[most pairs 10x etc] so he 3bets wide then? why was that not mentioned in the post George/Q8 ? plus the 52s and how active u"ve been?
in that that case your turn bet could look bluffy which would set up a thin call by oppo on the river.. likewise you"ll have to think about the sizing imo, if oppo isn"t that faint hearted he could check raise bluff the river and set u a tough decision...
No idea if he 3 betting wide but with all the fish at the table and knowing he"s a decent player and he"s in position it wouldn"t surprise me
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
if u think his tendencies are that transparent in that he never traps big/strong hands or will turn say JJ KK AA into bluff catchers and is super honest oop in pre 3bet pots on 4th and 5th street and would never turn say Ah Kx /Q,J or worse into a check raise bluff then heyho u can bet the river :) more so if u think he would lead out and bet the river with only strong hands :)
all we really need to do is anticipate the situations that will likely occur and adjust accordingly..
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Pot was already over 4k iknew who he was and he was very compitent good, but wasn"t sure how he played so was happy to check behind really its nearly a 100bb pot lol ;D
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
if u think his tendencies are that transparent in that he never traps big/strong hands or will turn say JJ KK AA into bluff catchers and is super honest oop in pre 3bet pots on 4th and 5th street and would never turn say Ah Kx /Q,J or worse into a check raise bluff then heyho u can bet the river :) more so if u think he would lead out and bet the river with only strong hands :)
all we really need to do is anticipate the situations that will likely occur and adjust accordingly..
That"s what I"m saying. i was there. I value bet.
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Yeh could of tbh a bit of noobness came into me and i didnt want to be on 7k after 30mins ;) although i dont think its wrong for me to check but i probarly should of bet
p.s you playing edinborough?
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
What hands can he check call with that we beat ?
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Yeh could of tbh a bit of noobness came into me and i didnt want to be on 7k after 30mins ;) although i dont think its wrong for me to check but i probarly should of bet
p.s you playing edinborough?
Yep- see you there?
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50-50 atm willbe costly flights/hotel etc
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
What hands can he check call with that we beat ?
Let me ask you another question rather than answering this.
Say you sneak a peek at his cards on the turn and see he has pocket nines would you bet river?
OFC you would. In this instance I am 90% sure I am winning therefore I can bet. What he calls river with is his concern. Rudders"s thoughts about checking back are fine but one of the things which seperates the greatest players from the good ones is there ability to go for thin value when they know they"re winning. Sometimes you can valuetown yourself but in this spot I really think we"re winning enough of the time to put out another bet
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Im normally very good at value betting i just thought i might aswell turn my cards over it was obvious what i had
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
What hands can he check call with that we beat ?
Ah Kc etc Ah Qs etc 99 JJ
with no idea of oppo"s tendencies then the solid thing to do is to check the river.. its a skinny thin vb to make on the river, but this deep i can see the positives so long as you have the ability to take advantage of your image...
Snapper dont be handcuffed by traditional thinking, in my experience solid players turn out to play poorly when u test them and trick them and tilt them and exploit them... depends on your own style of play in the end....
you should make "super thin" value bets now and then. theres always spots that come up in aggressive poker games where a certain line that your opponent has took which can basically scream he may likely have mid level nonsense to absolute dog-pooh, so you can reverse read hands and realise that even say the 34th nuts is actually the 1st nuts given certain action barring some insane level your opponent is pulling which he"s not. i can see the argument that this is one of those spots, so bet! :) [he may even fold better pairs]
disclaimer - this is the cash game LAG in me that proposes my thoughts above.. :-[
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
What hands can he check call with that we beat ?
Let me ask you another question rather than answering this.
Say you sneak a peek at his cards on the turn and see he has pocket nines would you bet river?
Of Course we value bet, safe in the knowledge that his entire range is 99 and we"re a lock, but, thats not the spot we face as detailed itt.
OFC you would. In this instance I am 90% sure I am winning therefore I can bet. What he calls river with is his concern. Rudders"s thoughts about checking back are fine but one of the things which seperates the greatest players from the good ones is there ability to go for thin value when they know they"re winning. Sometimes you can valuetown yourself but in this spot I really think we"re winning enough of the time to put out another bet
Agree totally about thin value and really good players, the bottom line is they can extract thin value because they hand read so well.
This spot is super thin though and I would estimate that his range on the river is very evenly divided between hands that fold / call and win / call and lose.
If he held AhX it would be a great spot for him to check raise bluff the river, and I think Chris is sick enough to make that move tbh.
Given that you are vb"ing here, what size bet George?
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If he held AhX it would be a great spot for him to check raise bluff the river, and I think Chris is sick enough to make that move tbh.
check raise bluff river - to make this work one of the most important conditions imho are the turn going check check or poor bet sizing on the turn which screams weak... [edit - oh and some1 who bluffs/vb"s rivers thin helps also] :)
disclaimer - no reimbursements allowed :)
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What 52 suited? :Z ... And i just think hes a thinking player and ive flatted a 3bet and led out small on turn i must be beating a10/99 etc
Yeh but that doesn"t mean he doesn"t call river. I just don"t think he"s be c/calling turn and river with hands that beat you therefore we can go for value
What hands can he check call with that we beat ?
Let me ask you another question rather than answering this.
Say you sneak a peek at his cards on the turn and see he has pocket nines would you bet river?
Of Course we value bet, safe in the knowledge that his entire range is 99 and we"re a lock, but, thats not the spot we face as detailed itt.
OFC you would. In this instance I am 90% sure I am winning therefore I can bet. What he calls river with is his concern. Rudders"s thoughts about checking back are fine but one of the things which seperates the greatest players from the good ones is there ability to go for thin value when they know they"re winning. Sometimes you can valuetown yourself but in this spot I really think we"re winning enough of the time to put out another bet
Agree totally about thin value and really good players, the bottom line is they can extract thin value because they hand read so well.
This spot is super thin though and I would estimate that his range on the river is very evenly divided between hands that fold / call and win / call and lose.
If he held AhX it would be a great spot for him to check raise bluff the river, and I think Chris is sick enough to make that move tbh.
Given that you are vb"ing here, what size bet George?
Sizing wise I might go for a pot bet here. I generally tend to size things a bit bigger- depends on how much he likes to wear his cape- might just half pot it.
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given that DRS has folded an overpair already, CD may try and CR this river putting DRS in a tough spot.
I like the check on the river here.
still think you should bet more on the turn though
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Sizing wise I might go for a pot bet here. I generally tend to size things a bit bigger- depends on how much he likes to wear his cape- might just half pot it.
Since its so close as to whether we can profitably bet the river here, I think gameflow & history would decide it for me. If I just intuitively felt like I was ahead and he could call lite, that sort of thing.
As far as sizing if we do choose to bet, I prefer a bigger bet as it makes us look polarised. We are supposed to be polarised here and it gives villain added reason to "wear his cape"
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I dont wanna play for stacks at 25/50 trying to pot control turn probarly should of gone for 1500 but im happy checking river as i rated chris as a good player and it would be a super bad call to call anything worst on the river