Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: NewLimproved on August 15, 2011, 23:17:06 PM
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£10+ £10 addon for 8k+8k
Playing live at the Gala Glasgow.
Used addon Just below average stack with 22k
1st hand after being Moved to a new table of 10 players.
Two tables remaining.
Blinds 300/600
utg folds
utg +1 calls 600 with 15k stack
utg +2 calls 600 with 30k stack
utg +3 folds
Raise to 2000 with ks qs
Hj folds
Co folds
But folds
SB folds
BB folds
utg+1 calls 1400
utg+2 calls 1400
Pot 6900
Flop
kh jc 5h
utg +1 checks
utg +2 bets 2500
You to act??
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£10+ £10 addon for 8k+8k
Playing live at the Gala Glasgow.
Used addon Just below average stack with 22k
1st hand after being Moved to a new table of 10 players.
Two tables remaining.
Blinds 300/600
utg folds
utg +1 calls 600 with 15k stack
utg +2 calls 600 with 30k stack
utg +3 folds
Raise to 2000 with ks qs
Hj folds
Co folds
But folds
SB folds
BB folds
utg+1 calls 1400
utg+2 calls 1400
Pot 6900
Flop
kh jc 5h
utg +1 checks
utg +2 bets 2500
You to act??
Looks like you"re ahead from the preflop play, but wary of KJ and flush draw. It"s cheap enough to call but I"d probably raise rather than give a free turn card
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It depends on the players and you image but might just call flop rather than raise
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It depends on the players and you image but might just call flop rather than raise
Imagine your a bettor and not a limper then
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I get beaten up a lot ;D
But I am shoving that - but again that is just me 8)
reasoning - none except just below average and close to 10k in the pot
what are you afraid of is my question ?
edit: oh and I get laughed at a lot
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His bet suggests that he would like to get to the Turn and has set his own price to get there rather than you setting a higher one, so Jx or draws to a Flush or Straight are likely. Or are they? He should be betting more on that Flop if he has a strong made hand but some people are not aware of this, so you might set him in and find yourself behind. Assuming you are ahead, to reraise now and set him a correct price is going to become very expensive - what should be a good situation is now in dire danger of getting out of control with us not knowing whether we are in good shape or not - partly due to a terrible size raise preflop.
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Hes either miles ahead and flopped trip 5s/maybe Jacks or fishing for the flush. You would reraise AA/AK/QQ/JJ surely?
I would raise to 7k and probably fold to a shove....or maybe not. Depends if I am drinking tea or cider :)
Did that help? LOL
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Trav always says it so much better...hes Irish you know!
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With no info on bettor I suspected he was putting out an obvious blocker bet to try to control the pot
I re-raised to 8k
utg+1 folds
utg +2 nervously puts in the extra 5.5k
Turn :2d:
pot 22900
He checks
I shove for 11000
He calls and states he has outs but knows he is behind
and shows jh 8h
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I would also raise here to make him pay to see the turn. To me it looks like he is unsure of where he is.
If he then shoves, you are probably only ahead of a flush draw or a bluff and can then fold.....or FLAB as we call it at the BCPC :)
He is folding 10-10 and below to a re-raise and I doubt he would have just called pre-flop with A-K.
K-J is a possibility, but I think he would bet more if he held that.
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Did I play this right?
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First hand at a new table you should err on the side of caution giving yourself time to get some idea of the players and their stack sizes. Facing unknown utg and utg+1 limpers I prefer to flat here and may even fold :o
As played.....
The pfr is a little on the small side and I prefer 3k - 3.6k as a betsize, 2k offers ~3/1 to the limpers and we"re relatively deep 25-35 bb"s.
Its a decent flop but lots of limp call type hands have decent equity against us, a reraise would put us in a really tough spot and potentially folding the best hand (marginally best usually though qh th & ah th are a small favourite versus our hand). I prefer to flat call and continue cautiously, hoping for a non heart non broadway turn. Raising would fold out only the hands you want to keep in, weaker K"s, pair weak draw combo"s etc.
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He called ???.....what a horrible play !
If he is gonna chase his flush for that amount then he wants to be 4-betting all-in because that is where he ended up anyway !!
I hope he didnt suck-out on you
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I think you did.
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I think you did.
I thought i did on my way home
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lol....see my thread from Saturday night.....at least this **** had a draw to hit......mine didn"t !!
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On that flop jh 8h is a very slight favourite to win the hand
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Then he should be shoving and not calling.....2 ways to win surely ?? (Hence my description)
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He called ???.....what a horrible play !
If he is gonna chase his flush for that amount then he wants to be 4-betting all-in because that is where he ended up anyway !!
I agree he should reraise all-in on the Flop when it is 50/50* and he might force a fold, but he is still getting the pot-odds to call on the Turn, at least in a cash-game (though in a tournament he will get knocked out two times out of three).
*As Brendan says, he is a very slight favourite, but so slight we can say it is 50/50.
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Did I play this right?
re-think your whole approach would be my advice, if u wish to get better then start to question/understand the concept rather than question a vacuum should i / shouldn"t i...
if ur happy just splashing about and having a good crack with your mates etc then ignore what i said above...
get a good up to date cash game book will help, HOH still is a pretty good start point, kill everyone etc etc plus a few more that many a APAT"er will recommend if u ask... devote just as much of your spare time as u possibly can to learning as well as playing...
here is an article that"s also a good start point in which to build your game/reasoning around, remember though its only the beginning of a lot of learning :)
Using Range Calculations to Make Better Decisions
By Brian "sbrugby" Townsend
Poker in all forms is a simple math game. You have a hand and your opponents have a range of hands. You then make a decision based on their range versus your holding as to whether to call, fold, or raise. You determine this by looking at the equity, or how often you win the hand, against the size of the pot to determine your best action. In no-limit hold"em, when facing a pot-size bet on the turn, generally if you have greater than 50 percent equity in the pot, you should raise. If your equity is between 33 percent and 49 percent, and no fold equity exists, you should call. If your equity is less than 33 percent and no implied odds exist, you should fold. This is a simplistic model, but a good place to start when learning beginning range calculations.
The best players in the world have an intuition about hand ranges that comes from playing hundreds of thousands of hands. They intuitively know if they should raise, call, or fold. Although it comes naturally to some, there are exercises you can do to improve your analysis of your opponents" possible holdings. In order to be a winning player, you need to be able to determine not only your opponents" likely range of hands, but what your equity, or chance to win, is against their range. For the sake of equity calculations in this column, I have used the PokerStove software, which can be found at PokerStove.com.
Let"s look at the following example to show us how an opponent"s range of hands drastically affects the proper decision. You are on the button with the Ah Jh and raise three times the big blind (BB) and are called by the player in the big blind. The flop comes 10h 7h 3s. It is checked, and you bet 6.5 times the size of the big blind (the size of the pot) and are raised all in for another 45 big blinds. The decision to call or fold is rather simple if you can put your opponent on a range of hands. To begin, let"s say we know that the villain is an extremely tight player and will do this only with a set.
Using PokerStove to calculate the equity, against this player we have .265 equity in the pot, or we will win the pot 26.5 percent of the time. So, our expected value, or how much we expect to win on average, of calling is: EV = [(1 - equity in the pot)x(bet to call)] + [(equity in pot)x(pot size)]. So, in this case, our EV = [(.735)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.265)x(58 BB)] = -13 BB. So, with a tight opponent, we should fold our nut-flush draw because our expected value of calling is negative. This means that we don"t have the pots odds to call his raise.
Now, instead of being up against a very tight opponent, we are up against a reasonably tight player who will do this with a much wider range, including top pair. Against this range (sets, top pair, and overpairs), we have much better equity, 46 percent. Now our expected value is: EV = [(.54)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.46)x(58 BB)] = 6 BB. In this case, against the reasonably tight player, we gain six big blinds by calling, though a raise won"t be profitable (assuming we had more money), since our equity is less than 50 percent.
In the last case, let"s look at a hyperaggressive maniac. Again, using PokerStove and giving him a range of any pair, any draw, overpairs, sets, and bluffs, our equity really improves. In this case, we have 73 percent equity against his range of hands. Now, our EV = [(.27)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.73)x(58 BB)] = 32 BB. So, a call is profitable. An interesting thing has happened in this last case. We have greater than 50 percent equity against the maniac"s range, so instead of calling, we should reraise if we both have more chips left.
I used these three cases to show how equity and range calculations can be used when learning a new game to help with the thought process. This approach can be used when learning any form of poker, whether it is no-limit hold"em, pot-limit hold"em, or stud eight-or-better. Learning to accurately put players on hand ranges and apply them to equity calculations is one of the building blocks to becoming a successful high-stakes poker player. Good luck, and drop us a line at CardPlayerQuestions@CardRunners.com if you have any questions.
Brian Townsend, 25, is a high-limit poker player who plays under the handles sbrugby and aba20. He"s been a professional since September of 2006 in the smallest of no-limit hold"em games. Now he can be found playing $200-$400 no-limit hold"em and pot-limit Omaha on any major site.
AE Jones blog quote - NOV 7 2010
You need a read, you need solid logic and it all needs to fit into a good gameplan. I hate making mistakes. If I focus on going with my read at the moment, I feel okay about my decisions. When I"m unable to make the best decision in the moment (and I figure it out later, or I realize that I wasn"t thinking about the right things and my judgment was clouded), it really eats at me.
The most important thing to note about figuring out the mistakes you"re making is that I don"t mean "stacking off too light" or "spewing," I mean that you make the best play you can possibly make with the information at hand. So, if you don"t bluff the river at some point in time when you"re confident your opponent is going to call turn/fold river-- that mistake is just as meaningful as the times when you tell yourself "he"s not gonna fold!" and then you bluff it in there anyways.
hope this helps...
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Then he should be shoving and not calling.....2 ways to win surely ?? (Hence my description)
Yeah but villain is not the one looking for advice, it might be comforting to be told that the oppo made some mistakes in the hand but other than that its about as useful as a Hermits Address Book imho.
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Sigh........so much to learn......not enough time :-\
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Sigh........so much to learn......not enough time :-\
lol yea was thinking the same ian
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I shove flop....I"m guessing its a v fast structure....n this will do...but he would snap call I guess....would you snap with his holding?...I would probably sigh call.....
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Villain has played it OK up to the point where he"s raised on the flop. He tried to get a cheap turn card but nobody on the table really has the stack size to try catching cards once the raise goes in. It"s a poor call IMO, he"d have been better jamming over the top again on the flop to have 2 ways of winning the pot. Don"t think you did anything wrong Alex, sometimes just can"t shake off
a fish someone on a draw
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Raising the flop and folding to a shove is the nut-lo line IMO, especially when his line may indicate flush draw. It"s close between raising smallish and calling but prefer the call as we have position on future streets.
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When you raise pre flop I guess your looking for a paint flop or your flush draw? I guess you wasn"t squeezing with your raise sizing?... With you stack size and blind situation I can only see myself in your position shipping it all in when villain takes a stab at pot with a 2.5k lead.. Looked a good flop to me for your hand, deeper stacks then maybe the raise to 8k so if you do get shoved on then you may have to revalue your option.. Your never folding if the guy re shoves your 8k raise.
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I get beaten up a lot ;D
But I am shoving that - but again that is just me 8)
reasoning - none except just below average and close to 10k in the pot
what are you afraid of is my question ?
edit: oh and I get laughed at a lot
We"re all definitely laughing with you, not at you Ger :D
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There are a lot of posts itt that focus mostly on the villains play, it"s very common especially so in poker, for people to look at things from a blame perspective ie: if only he had the good sense to fold like he should have then I would have went on to win etc. This can provide comfort to us but does nothing to address the weaknesses in our games. If you set a task for yourself to find reasons why you where hard done by, you will definately find them but that won"t elevate your understanding of the game.
High achievers, in poker as in any pursuit, will for the most part approach their analysis from a responsibility perspective and focus on their decisions only. They take responsibility for their actions and strive to continuously improve and understand that they have no control whatsoever on external factors (variance).
In the hand......
- Villain over limped an implied odds type hand
- Villain called a pfr oop getting ~4/1 direct odds
- Villain flopped lots of equity and led small trying to make his own price
- Villain called a flop raise getting ~3/1 direct odds
- Villain called a turn bet getting ~3/1
- Hero got involved in a marginal spot with no reads
- Hero raised small offering decent odds
- Hero raised flop creating a big pot,a tough spot, leaving only a .55 psb behind and 45% of his stack in the pot
- Hero jams turn offering very nearly correct odds for villains hand
What villain does is beyond your control.
If you look for things you can do better, you will find some and you will improve.
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Flop is clear call.
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New to these kinds of posts but would be interested to know what your plan was for your hand when you made the initial raise? Were you just trying to get it through and pick up a few chips or did you have a plan in case you were called? It wasn"t a bad flop for your hand once you were called so maybe try to give them the wrong odds to continue if you think they are drawing etc? I realise that players often do that and are still called and lose the hand but we are supposed to feel OK about it as we got in in good. Several pints of Guinness and the odd bottle of red wine here and there help when this happens. In fact the more I have the better I feel about it. I have sometimes had so much that I have even been known to completely forget about it.
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New to these kinds of posts but would be interested to know what your plan was for your hand when you made the initial raise? Were you just trying to get it through and pick up a few chips or did you have a plan in case you were called? It wasn"t a bad flop for your hand once you were called so maybe try to give them the wrong odds to continue if you think they are drawing etc? I realise that players often do that and are still called and lose the hand but we are supposed to feel OK about it as we got in in good. Several pints of Guinness and the odd bottle of red wine here and there help when this happens. In fact the more I have the better I feel about it. I have sometimes had so much that I have even been known to completely forget about it.
Basically I was narrowing the field. If i limped It encourages others to limp for value.
So my >3xbb raise looks strong & narrowed the field down from potentially 7 opponents to 2.
The early position player i had some info on her as i had played against her before and kind of expected a call and a fold to a cbet. The villan I assumed wasnt that strong and was in the pot getting value with the call.
The villans flop bet immediately made me think he was drawing to the flush thats why i re-raised him to 8k (after reading the replies I should have moved allin to make his decision more difficult) When the turn came out a brick I had no other option but to move allin at this point, I didnt expect the villan to fold now for only 11k only dissapointed at the result not the call
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(after reading the replies I should have moved allin to make his decision more difficult)
read through it again........
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(after reading the replies I should have moved allin to make his decision more difficult)
read through it again........
LOL ;)
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Flop is clear call.
Why is it is a clear call?
If you call what is your plan on the turn do we have to stack off on any non ace non heart card that comes down? Or are we re-evaluating if he bets strongly on the turn? Calling does give us this extra info.
What do we do if an Ace or a heart does come down?
Not too sure I like the call option in this spot as there are too many ways it can go wrong. I would probably shove, he can fold his air I don"t think it is a huge part of his range but I think draws might be?
I would push fwiw
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work out the ev of shoving flop...
work out the ev of a call....
which one do u think will be the most?
an ace,jack or a heart will drop 32% of the time..
more to ponder -
the really important thing is to maximize value versus hands that can pay you off and get away from hands you are behind to..
if u rr top pair hands like this how would u exploit yourselves?
scenario - utg folded pre and watched hero get jiggy to the donk bet on a 2suited flop, hero has doubled up.. Hero gets dealt AA the very next hand and raises, utg is now the BB and is the only caller..
flop - 3 8 Q 2hearts
the BB leads out 1/3 pot, hero re-raises his over pair, BB re-raises all in, hero calls...
whoops the BB has 88 and hero misses his 2outs to redraw...
just unlucky or was hero exploited ?
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Flop is clear call.
Why is it is a clear call?
If you call what is your plan on the turn do we have to stack off on any non ace non heart card that comes down? Or are we re-evaluating if he bets strongly on the turn? Calling does give us this extra info.
What do we do if an Ace or a heart does come down?
Not too sure I like the call option in this spot as there are too many ways it can go wrong. I would probably shove, he can fold his air I don"t think it is a huge part of his range but I think draws might be?
I would push fwiw
Usually when people lead a flop it"s for two reasons:
1) To fold when raised
2) To jam when raised
I know this didn"t happen in this instance so it might my point a little redundant but on such a wet board I am not happy stacking off here. If you get it in on this flop you"re usually flipping/crushed.
You"re in position with top pair against an amateur player who is probably going to telegraph his hand on the turn. Let a card come off and re-evaluate. You can always overjam brick turns if he checks to you so he has less equity when he calls it off.
Or if he barrells again you can decide if KQ is good and fold/jam.
Raise/folding is by far the poorest option.
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Oh and I like your sizing pre btw.
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Flop is clear call.
Why is it is a clear call?
If you call what is your plan on the turn do we have to stack off on any non ace non heart card that comes down? Or are we re-evaluating if he bets strongly on the turn? Calling does give us this extra info.
What do we do if an Ace or a heart does come down?
Not too sure I like the call option in this spot as there are too many ways it can go wrong. I would probably shove, he can fold his air I don"t think it is a huge part of his range but I think draws might be?
I would push fwiw
Usually when people lead a flop it"s for two reasons:
1) To fold when raised
2) To jam when raised
I know this didn"t happen in this instance so it might my point a little redundant but on such a wet board I am not happy stacking off here. If you get it in on this flop you"re usually flipping/crushed.
You"re in position with top pair against an amateur player who is probably going to telegraph his hand on the turn. Let a card come off and re-evaluate. You can always overjam brick turns if he checks to you so he has less equity when he calls it off.
Or if he barrells again you can decide if KQ is good and fold/jam.
Raise/folding is by far the poorest option.
Yeah, OK that makes sense, Cheers George :-)
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Some great stuff in here....