Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Honeybadg on September 27, 2011, 17:39:37 PM
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I played the £1000+70 European Poker Championships at the weekend.
Flight 1 - 52 runners (of 103 total) about 25 left from flight A.
Thoughts on this one.
400/800 (50)
I am in the BB with 89s - c19500 chips
UTG + 1 min raises to 1600. - He is playing c80k - has been min raising or slightly more perhaps 1/4 of the pots.
I call - flop 942 rainbow.
I check - he bets 2500 - I call
Turn is a 5 - no flush draws
I check - he bets 3000 - I call
River is a Queen
I check - at a slight delay he splashes 14k ish into the pot to set me all in ...
What do you do?
L
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i think u r behind. fold
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Fold. Horrid situation to be in, oop and reverse implied odds are terrible from the offset, maybe fold once he barrels the turn, you need to save some doubble up equity.
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You are too shallow to be playing through the streets here with sooted connectors. Fold or shove pre are your only real options. I"d go for a fold vs an UTG raise.
As played, I CRAI on the flop and hope he has no overpair. You could also get looked up by overcards here and still have out vs overpaid.
As played, err running out of ideas now.
Think this hand highlights the perils of playing marginal hands OOP with 24BBs v agro players who are chipped up.
Fwiw, if I call turn, I probably get the cape out on the river, though folding is fine.
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Fold pre or if u must play the hand, jam pre
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with no reads of any sort to go by, just that he has played 25% of hands, then its tough to say Louis..
how has he played on various textures when oop or ip, have any hands gone to showdown, does he cbet most flops, same to double barrels, when checked to on rivers how often had you seen him bet out etc etc etc... did he seem to have ABC ish style, did he use position well, did he bet size and use leverage well? etc etc etc...........
in a vacuum - fold is ok obv , attempt a go and go would be ok imo , all out shove steal is a obv option...
as played - wow i don"t often just check call without some sort of read, even if i have the read right or wrong at least i can make the decision.. if its right then woohoo i"m a poker genius, if wrong then its shrug it off time, get a pint and try to pin point why or if it all, where i wrongly assessed the player... right back to as played, cc ok ish, check jam turn to the weak looking bet sizing is a option... after cc"ing the turn then how to get to showdown? throwing out a ridiculous small bet may achieve that, only guessing mind :) you can jam the river and try to sell a slow played A3 2pair or set which once in a blue moon a stack this size will fold to with AA KK :o
you could try min raise the turn to try to get a check check river..
As played, I CRAI on the flop and hope he has no overpair. You could also get looked up by overcards here and still have out vs overpaid.
As played, err running out of ideas now.
this one from rob, met get some hero calls also from 55"s to 88"s etc....
hard to read what the oppo has, your passive line and his stack size just begs him to fire out, his river bet i can read it both bluffs and value... i"d be tempted to get a coin out tbh L.... heads call , tails fold..........
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I think this totally depends on your opponent but once I get to the river I doubt i am folding
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Nothing worse than calling off your stack on the river and getting it wrong - I"m check raising all in flop or turn here - prob cc flop, then crai turn.
Not so sure about shoving 24x pre in this spot - seems a bit spewy... with his stack he"s never folding AQ+, 88+ to a preflop re-shove, and even though we"ve labelled him as a loose player, there"s a reasonable chance he has something half decent UTG a fair amount of the time. Would prefer to call in position pre, hit the flop, then commit to the hand, or miss the flop and fold.
As played, relucta-call, then smile knowingly if we win.
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CRAI on the flop.
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I"m probably calling here also.
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Villain doesnt rep very many hands here. Depends a lot on how competent villain is and of course his previous value bet sizing.
Assuming villain is somewhat competent, his river bet size looks more aimed at finding a fold than a call. You have taken a really weak line so I"d expect a river value bet to be smaller.
I call.
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with no reads of any sort to go by, just that he has played 25% of hands, then its tough to say Louis..
how has he played on various textures when oop or ip, have any hands gone to showdown, does he cbet most flops, same to double barrels, when checked to on rivers how often had you seen him bet out etc etc etc... did he seem to have ABC ish style, did he use position well, did he bet size and use leverage well? etc etc etc...........
in a vacuum - fold is ok obv , attempt a go and go would be ok imo , all out shove steal is a obv option...
as played - wow i don"t often just check call without some sort of read, even if i have the read right or wrong at least i can make the decision.. if its right then woohoo i"m a poker genius, if wrong then its shrug it off time, get a pint and try to pin point why or if it all, where i wrongly assessed the player... right back to as played, cc ok ish, check jam turn to the weak looking bet sizing is a option... after cc"ing the turn then how to get to showdown? throwing out a ridiculous small bet may achieve that, only guessing mind :) you can jam the river and try to sell a slow played A3 2pair or set which once in a blue moon a stack this size will fold to with AA KK :o
you could try min raise the turn to try to get a check check river..
As played, I CRAI on the flop and hope he has no overpair. You could also get looked up by overcards here and still have out vs overpaid.
As played, err running out of ideas now.
this one from rob, met get some hero calls also from 55"s to 88"s etc....
hard to read what the oppo has, your passive line and his stack size just begs him to fire out, his river bet i can read it both bluffs and value... i"d be tempted to get a coin out tbh L.... heads call , tails fold..........
I should have added he was relatively new to the table - perhaps four laps of the track - and betting 1/4 of the pots.
There have been no show downs. I had no tells except that he had a beard ...
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I had no tells except that he had a beard ...
He probably had 45o then, and he caught up on the turn. Fold now.
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I had no tells except that he had a beard ...
Can"t believe you left out such important information.....
NEVER TRUST A MAN WITH A BEARD
(http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l605/thinsy/HowardLedererPoker.jpg)
(http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l605/thinsy/15706chris-ferguson.jpg)
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(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRL4mHHaoG-Tb_NUGGyK_ZM_guVlo7zZxrCLSLln7Cn8IBHLKjnvJdIH_YAQ)
if it was a white beard, prezzie time i call.....
50/50 Louis, could be for value trying to sell a bluff or 67 etc, flip the coin, divided views in the thread but after the way u played it i"d slightly a favour a call tbh..
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Cheers for thoughts ...
After about 5 mins of thinking I did call ... he mucked .. I scooped a c40k pot to take me well ahead of average ... which was c28k.
My thinking on the hand was as follows:
He has roughly triple the average stack hence a pretty wide range ...
All pairs, All Aces, All broadway hands, maybe more ...
On the flop I am ahead most of the time - hence I should play weakly - with few draws on the board.
Turn is pretty brick like except for 55 or A3 - I think I just have to suffer these hands.
I still think I am ahead - hence happy to remain weak.
River is a Queen - have to say I hated this card - it makes things difficult - however his all in seems weird - could be a super value shove but with c12,400 chips to scope c27,600 in the middle it seems I am winning often enough to make the call and go for the win ...
Half the table stunned - half the table - a chorus of good call.
I thought it was a super interesting hand - it"s not the way I would have played it six months ago but I think it is the right way to play it on occasion vs a large stack ... in looking to gather your own large chip stack ...
In the recent Betfair $35k I played and came second there were a couple of hands like this on the final table where it just felt too likely that people were betting with air - in that event I was in position hence much more comfortable - and only two barrels to call but it probably made the difference between flipping at an eight seated table to cruising into the last three.
As much as I can I want to avoid seeing flipping coins as a neccessity and elect to play in interesting spots where you can make significant gains with marginal hands (vs larger stacks or more aggressive opponents - give them rope).
Thoughts on this strategy, as a variant to more ABC play? +EV?
I am still re-pondering it - might be for years??
L
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Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!
Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!
Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets. How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...
Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!
Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!
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Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!
Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!
Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets. How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...
Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!
Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!
This is a good reason for shoving the flop - we don"t want a fold if he has two overcards.... we want him to make a bad call. If he has an overpair, we have some redraw opportunity. If he has an underpair, he may make a bad call. There are many good reasons for shoving the flop. If he folds to our shove, well at least we protected our holding and took down a reasonable pot
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Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!
Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!
Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets. How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...
Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!
Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!
This is a good reason for shoving the flop - we don"t want a fold if he has two overcards.... we want him to make a bad call. If he has an overpair, we have some redraw opportunity. If he has an underpair, he may make a bad call. There are many good reasons for shoving the flop. If he folds to our shove, well at least we protected our holding and took down a reasonable pot
valid points (didnt expect anything less from you to be fair!) but im always worried in these spots as it tournie life..and i have an awful kicker and very suspectable to be flipping to overcards....always to seems too risky and better spots exist
im getting better at being braver tho! ;D
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Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!
Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!
Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets. How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...
Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!
Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!
This is a good reason for shoving the flop - we don"t want a fold if he has two overcards.... we want him to make a bad call. If he has an overpair, we have some redraw opportunity. If he has an underpair, he may make a bad call. There are many good reasons for shoving the flop. If he folds to our shove, well at least we protected our holding and took down a reasonable pot
valid points (didnt expect anything less from you to be fair!) but im always worried in these spots as it tournie life..and i have an awful kicker and very suspectable to be flipping to overcards....always to seems too risky and better spots exist
im getting better at being braver tho! ;D
"tourney life" is sometime over-rated imo, and consideration to it can lead to poor -ev decisions
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So people think if we check/ jam flop for about 18k over a 2.5k bet we are getting called off by Aj etc?
What crazy games do you lot play in?
Only merit of check jamming is making the hand easy, for you and your opponent. I guess you may get called by a slight underpair to the board. However taking the easy route is not always the most profitable route.
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hmm interesting, imo u guys should discuss this more...
theory in the thread that is being questioned -
protection of the hand or is it protecting your stack/chips?
protecting equity versus maximising value.
can you get value whilst protecting, if so then what"s the best line of play to do so?
taking a line of play which is deceptive, if you play the same way as everyone else then you won"t have a edge over your opponents. [true or false?]
how do you get good players or someone unknown to make mistakes with hands which aren"t at the top of there range?
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I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river. Folding pre seems like a better option tho...
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I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river. Folding pre seems like a better option tho...
You are seriously not going to call a min raise from the big bling with 89s versus a big stack?
I am calling for the draws ahead of hitting the naked 8 or 9 but it feels like a great starting spot to me.
L
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I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river. Folding pre seems like a better option tho...
How deep do we need to be to make this call pre ok?
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I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river. Folding pre seems like a better option tho...
You are seriously not going to call a min raise from the big bling with 89s versus a big stack?
I am calling for the draws ahead of hitting the naked 8 or 9 but it feels like a great starting spot to me.
L
I think defending can be ok w/ this stack size in some situations, but not vs a strong range from a min by utg+1. The reason for this is, when you say you are not calling to hit an 8 or a 9, we are forced to stack off on a lot of 1p flops w/ our stack size, and I dnt like this vs his supposed hand strength.
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Even if it"s theoretically incorrect, I would imagine 90%+ of players would not fold pre because this is live tournament poker. Don"t think I would find a fold pre, but then again I find folding hard to do
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Surely given the perceived strength and narrowish range of the raiser, 89s is a great hand to defend with... it plays the flop so well most of the time, and the implied odds in this instance are excellent.
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Implied value goes way down when you start hands less than around 50bbs. IMO less than 50bbs is to big % of your stack to defend oop. And also you are heads up, which means there is even less value. I personally find, Suited connectores and small pairs in multiway pots are much better. And like open raising if im H/J, C/O, OTB and preferbly with more than 50bbs .
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Surely given the perceived strength and narrowish range of the raiser, 89s is a great hand to defend with... it plays the flop so well most of the time, and the implied odds in this instance are excellent.
This would def be true if we were deeper, but it doesnt really apply this shallow.
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Even if it"s theoretically incorrect, I would imagine 90%+ of players would not fold pre because this is live tournament poker. Don"t think I would find a fold pre, but then again I find folding hard to do
theoretically incorrect or is it? Deanp would not fold, nor would i tbh :)
because the chips in mtts have no real money value, i"d say there are situations in mtts where u have to assess risk award, because mtt chips have no real money value there are times where imho we will have to ask ourselves if the the risk taken if it will/met improve the odds of us going onto win or cash in the tournament? my point is sometimes its better to weigh what you are risking against what you have to gain in mtts.
what is Louis risking in terms of staying in the competition? what will winning the pot mean to his chances of making a deep run.
not quite sure why the thread suddenly put villain on a narrow range? did i miss something?