Amateur Poker Association & Tour

Poker Forum => Staker Exchange => Topic started by: Des on May 29, 2012, 20:21:27 PM

Title: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on May 29, 2012, 20:21:27 PM
APAT have never previously allowed staking on the forum, but we"d like to hear what the members think.  Our concerns have always been around members being defrauded in some form of way.  That said we"ve operated the seat exchange for several years and I"m not aware of a transaction not completing as expected.  However the potential values involved in staking are quite different, so I"d welcome your feedback.

Maybe Rich can also tell us a bit about how it works on blonde?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: TightEnd on May 29, 2012, 20:41:38 PM
Hello!

The way it works is as follows. Of course there are a variety of ways it can be formulated


- A minimum post count (arbitrary) so that new members cannot immediately ask for staking before they are known in the community
- A template of information that it is desirable to include as a staker
- blonde takes no commission, or commercial return, it just acts as the forum/marketplace
- There have been a small number of grims but a far greater number of huge successes. We do not get involved in disputes, though we moderate for the normal stuff like inappropriate content


the ground rules sated are as follows

"After much consideration we have decided to introduce two new child boards

- Online tournament Staking (child board of Internet Poker)

- Live tournament staking (child board of Live Poker)

There will of course be some basic ground-rules for members to observe.

- You may offer to stake players, or ask for staking, or apply for an offer of staking, but only if you have a minimum of 300 forum posts and have been a member of the forum for at least three months.

- Posts should detail in full the proposal to be discussed, rates and amounts available to produce transparency in all instances.

- Begging posts will be removed

- Names of those staking an individual can remain confidential to PMs

- blonde Poker will not become involved in disputes as to the stake itself under any circumstances but will moderate public boards in line with its guidelines for flaming etc.

- This will be non-commercial for blonde Poker."


I would have thought that the level of community within APAT, and the fmailiarity of many posters to each other, would make staking a good thing to have on here, if set up correctly
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 29, 2012, 21:10:41 PM
Thanks Rich, that"s pretty clear.  So, what do you all think?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Bigfella42 on May 29, 2012, 21:22:27 PM
While I understand the caution, never really agreed with the APAT stance of not allowing staking. I declare a vested interest as on Blonde I have sold and bought action.

Personally I think it adds to the value of a forum. APAT have some great players and to be able to follow them with a financial interest adds to the fun (well it does for me anyway). With the APAT community now well established we know each other pretty well so as long as people stick to buying stakes in people they trust there shouldn"t be any problems.

As an example, with the wsop just starting, staking gives people the chance to have a small interest. This year I"ll be following Stuart Rutter and Lil Dave with interest and as they are exceptional players (well Rutter is anyway  ;D) I consider the outlay +ve in the long term, and as they are playing tournies outside my bankroll I can now follow these events with added interest.

I think it also adds to the community. Staking threads become update and sweat threads and on the odd occassion when people run deep they attract the support of the whole forum.

So yes, it would get my vote.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Waz1892 on May 29, 2012, 21:26:08 PM
Without a doubt it would work and im sure it would be clear of anything bad going on, as the APAT community would ensure it was "clean"

 
My only question would be -Does it have enough active members to make it work as in stakers vs requests?

To me it seems blonde works because you have a much large community and thus, to me at least, it seems larger bankrolls and willing players to stake someone.

wish it well, and would watch this closely myself!  :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 29, 2012, 21:27:53 PM
I have no particular opinion to the positive or negative other than I would add that staking should not extend to APAT events and that you cannot sell part of your action if you win a prize seat.

Blonde don"t have that rule because it doesn"t apply to them.

2 cents
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 29, 2012, 21:32:28 PM
Good feedback thus far, thanks.

Paulie - presume your point is to ensure the staker and the stakee do not play the same event?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mylesfdo on May 29, 2012, 21:35:13 PM
Very good idea and a great site to look at for ideas would be "dum-de-dah" [mod edit] poker.....on there they offer backers the opportunity for horses to apply for stakes i.e a backer offers a $100 stake and horses state what they would do with it OR backer can specify what mtt"s/sng"s or mix of two horse is to play.....a rail is kept and stakes can run for 1 day up to x months I believe.

They also offer the opportunity for backers to buy a piece of your action in that you draw up a plan and sell shares in this plan for x amount per share i.e plan is to play 100 45 man $11 sng"s on Stars-total would be $495 and offering 495x$1 shares....once shares sell out(horse can obv buy shares) a request for $$ to be shipped is sent and horse starts to play the scheduled sng"s/mtt"s.......a rail is kept keeping backers up to date with number of tournies played, bust out hands and running banrkoll total....once schedule has been completed the bankroll is then totaled and shares will have a final value i.e in example mentioned say closing br is $1500 each share will be worth $3.03 and then funds are sent back to backer depending on how many shares they own.......the site does not charge a commission but charge the player a fee to set up the share offering.

Obviously the above can have many variations with sng"s and mtt"s being included, levels being increased if certain br is reached and sattys into bigger mtts being included.......live tournament sales can also be offered up for sale as well and many players bankroll themselves for wsop etc using this method.

There have been massive scores on the site with Sunday Million, FTOPS and WSOP events being won whilst under backing!!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Bigfella42 on May 29, 2012, 21:36:08 PM

I have no particular opinion to the positive or negative other than I would add that staking should not extend to APAT events and that you cannot sell part of your action if you win a prize seat.

Blonde don"t have that rule because it doesn"t apply to them.

2 cents


Out of interest Paulie why would you object to people selling stakes in APAT events. Take Cardiff last week, I wasn"t there but if I had 10% of 3 players what would be wrong with that? It"s probably unlikely to be popular as I know it"s only £7.50, but in principle why not?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 29, 2012, 21:43:03 PM

Very good idea and a great site to look at for ideas would be "dum-de-dah" poker.....on there they offer backers the opportunity for horses to apply for stakes i.e a backer offers a $100 stake and horses state what they would do with it OR backer can specify what mtt"s/sng"s or mix of two horse is to play.....a rail is kept and stakes can run for 1 day up to x months I believe.

They also offer the opportunity for backers to buy a piece of your action in that you draw up a plan and sell shares in this plan for x amount per share i.e plan is to play 100 45 man $11 sng"s on Stars-total would be $495 and offering 495x$1 shares....once shares sell out(horse can obv buy shares) a request for $$ to be shipped is sent and horse starts to play the scheduled sng"s/mtt"s.......a rail is kept keeping backers up to date with number of tournies played, bust out hands and running banrkoll total....once schedule has been completed the bankroll is then totaled and shares will have a final value i.e in example mentioned say closing br is $1500 each share will be worth $3.03 and then funds are sent back to backer depending on how many shares they own.......the site does not charge a commission but charge the player a fee to set up the share offering.

Obviously the above can have many variations with sng"s and mtt"s being included, levels being increased if certain br is reached and sattys into bigger mtts being included.......live tournament sales can also be offered up for sale as well and many players bankroll themselves for wsop etc using this method.

There have been massive scores on the site with Sunday Million, FTOPS and WSOP events being won whilst under backing!!


Ta, not necessarily looking to promote a third party site as we have some very close ties with sites that offer the service, rather I"m asking here for members views about APAT offering the service, although do appreciate that we could get some good leads from existing services.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mylesfdo on May 29, 2012, 21:51:24 PM


Very good idea and a great site to look at for ideas would be "dum-de-dah" poker.....on there they offer backers the opportunity for horses to apply for stakes i.e a backer offers a $100 stake and horses state what they would do with it OR backer can specify what mtt"s/sng"s or mix of two horse is to play.....a rail is kept and stakes can run for 1 day up to x months I believe.

They also offer the opportunity for backers to buy a piece of your action in that you draw up a plan and sell shares in this plan for x amount per share i.e plan is to play 100 45 man $11 sng"s on Stars-total would be $495 and offering 495x$1 shares....once shares sell out(horse can obv buy shares) a request for $$ to be shipped is sent and horse starts to play the scheduled sng"s/mtt"s.......a rail is kept keeping backers up to date with number of tournies played, bust out hands and running banrkoll total....once schedule has been completed the bankroll is then totaled and shares will have a final value i.e in example mentioned say closing br is $1500 each share will be worth $3.03 and then funds are sent back to backer depending on how many shares they own.......the site does not charge a commission but charge the player a fee to set up the share offering.

Obviously the above can have many variations with sng"s and mtt"s being included, levels being increased if certain br is reached and sattys into bigger mtts being included.......live tournament sales can also be offered up for sale as well and many players bankroll themselves for wsop etc using this method.

There have been massive scores on the site with Sunday Million, FTOPS and WSOP events being won whilst under backing!!


Ta, not necessarily looking to promote a third party site as we have some very close ties with sites that offer the service, rather I"m asking here for members views about APAT offering the service, although do appreciate that we could get some good leads from existing services.


Not quite sure why its ok to promote blonde as a reference and not the site I mentioned!!

Wasnt trying to promote the site just referenced as a great place to look for ideas as they have had some massive scores on there.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: AMRN on May 29, 2012, 21:55:58 PM
Excellent idea, and helps take APAT forward and retain market currency.

The community spirit around APAT is immense, and for that reason, policing the process will simple - in fact, it suspect it would almost police itself within the membership.

It may also act as a way of bringing new members to the fold - either people who play APAT events, but don"t use the forum, or totally new membership.

As for selling shares in AAPT events - not sure why an APAT event should be considered any differently to any other tourney..... and some of us already trade percentages anyway in an adhoc fashion.  And if a major event seat is won, again, I see nothing wrong with selling some of the action.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 29, 2012, 22:00:58 PM



Very good idea and a great site to look at for ideas would be "dum-de-dah" poker.....on there they offer backers the opportunity for horses to apply for stakes i.e a backer offers a $100 stake and horses state what they would do with it OR backer can specify what mtt"s/sng"s or mix of two horse is to play.....a rail is kept and stakes can run for 1 day up to x months I believe.

They also offer the opportunity for backers to buy a piece of your action in that you draw up a plan and sell shares in this plan for x amount per share i.e plan is to play 100 45 man $11 sng"s on Stars-total would be $495 and offering 495x$1 shares....once shares sell out(horse can obv buy shares) a request for $$ to be shipped is sent and horse starts to play the scheduled sng"s/mtt"s.......a rail is kept keeping backers up to date with number of tournies played, bust out hands and running banrkoll total....once schedule has been completed the bankroll is then totaled and shares will have a final value i.e in example mentioned say closing br is $1500 each share will be worth $3.03 and then funds are sent back to backer depending on how many shares they own.......the site does not charge a commission but charge the player a fee to set up the share offering.

Obviously the above can have many variations with sng"s and mtt"s being included, levels being increased if certain br is reached and sattys into bigger mtts being included.......live tournament sales can also be offered up for sale as well and many players bankroll themselves for wsop etc using this method.

There have been massive scores on the site with Sunday Million, FTOPS and WSOP events being won whilst under backing!!


Ta, not necessarily looking to promote a third party site as we have some very close ties with sites that offer the service, rather I"m asking here for members views about APAT offering the service, although do appreciate that we could get some good leads from existing services.


Not quite sure why its ok to promote blonde as a reference and not the site I mentioned!!

Wasnt trying to promote the site just referenced as a great place to look for ideas as they have had some massive scores on there.


blonde and APAT share many members, and indeed founding management, and have a long standing informal cooperative agreement built up over six years.   There is a lot of trust between us and we work well for it.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mylesfdo on May 29, 2012, 22:15:52 PM




Very good idea and a great site to look at for ideas would be "dum-de-dah" poker.....on there they offer backers the opportunity for horses to apply for stakes i.e a backer offers a $100 stake and horses state what they would do with it OR backer can specify what mtt"s/sng"s or mix of two horse is to play.....a rail is kept and stakes can run for 1 day up to x months I believe.

They also offer the opportunity for backers to buy a piece of your action in that you draw up a plan and sell shares in this plan for x amount per share i.e plan is to play 100 45 man $11 sng"s on Stars-total would be $495 and offering 495x$1 shares....once shares sell out(horse can obv buy shares) a request for $$ to be shipped is sent and horse starts to play the scheduled sng"s/mtt"s.......a rail is kept keeping backers up to date with number of tournies played, bust out hands and running banrkoll total....once schedule has been completed the bankroll is then totaled and shares will have a final value i.e in example mentioned say closing br is $1500 each share will be worth $3.03 and then funds are sent back to backer depending on how many shares they own.......the site does not charge a commission but charge the player a fee to set up the share offering.

Obviously the above can have many variations with sng"s and mtt"s being included, levels being increased if certain br is reached and sattys into bigger mtts being included.......live tournament sales can also be offered up for sale as well and many players bankroll themselves for wsop etc using this method.

There have been massive scores on the site with Sunday Million, FTOPS and WSOP events being won whilst under backing!!


Ta, not necessarily looking to promote a third party site as we have some very close ties with sites that offer the service, rather I"m asking here for members views about APAT offering the service, although do appreciate that we could get some good leads from existing services.


Not quite sure why its ok to promote blonde as a reference and not the site I mentioned!!

Wasnt trying to promote the site just referenced as a great place to look for ideas as they have had some massive scores on there.


blonde and APAT share many members, and indeed founding management, and have a long standing informal cooperative agreement built up over six years.   There is a lot of trust between us and we work well for it.


fair dos....hope u see wasnt trying to promote the site merely give a reference to get some ideas to make the staking board the best it could be.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 29, 2012, 22:22:34 PM





Very good idea and a great site to look at for ideas would be "dum-de-dah" poker.....on there they offer backers the opportunity for horses to apply for stakes i.e a backer offers a $100 stake and horses state what they would do with it OR backer can specify what mtt"s/sng"s or mix of two horse is to play.....a rail is kept and stakes can run for 1 day up to x months I believe.

They also offer the opportunity for backers to buy a piece of your action in that you draw up a plan and sell shares in this plan for x amount per share i.e plan is to play 100 45 man $11 sng"s on Stars-total would be $495 and offering 495x$1 shares....once shares sell out(horse can obv buy shares) a request for $$ to be shipped is sent and horse starts to play the scheduled sng"s/mtt"s.......a rail is kept keeping backers up to date with number of tournies played, bust out hands and running banrkoll total....once schedule has been completed the bankroll is then totaled and shares will have a final value i.e in example mentioned say closing br is $1500 each share will be worth $3.03 and then funds are sent back to backer depending on how many shares they own.......the site does not charge a commission but charge the player a fee to set up the share offering.

Obviously the above can have many variations with sng"s and mtt"s being included, levels being increased if certain br is reached and sattys into bigger mtts being included.......live tournament sales can also be offered up for sale as well and many players bankroll themselves for wsop etc using this method.

There have been massive scores on the site with Sunday Million, FTOPS and WSOP events being won whilst under backing!!


Ta, not necessarily looking to promote a third party site as we have some very close ties with sites that offer the service, rather I"m asking here for members views about APAT offering the service, although do appreciate that we could get some good leads from existing services.


Not quite sure why its ok to promote blonde as a reference and not the site I mentioned!!

Wasnt trying to promote the site just referenced as a great place to look for ideas as they have had some massive scores on there.


blonde and APAT share many members, and indeed founding management, and have a long standing informal cooperative agreement built up over six years.   There is a lot of trust between us and we work well for it.


fair dos....hope u see wasnt trying to promote the site merely give a reference to get some ideas to make the staking board the best it could be.


Yep, no probs.  Just removed the name from this discussion for the moment.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Fatcatstu on May 29, 2012, 22:43:53 PM
Sounds like a great idea to me. As mentioned, I think it would police itself. The people involved would most likely be APAT regulars and people well known, do nothing untoward would go on
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: AceOnTheRiver on May 29, 2012, 22:47:56 PM

I would have thought that the level of community within APAT, and the fmailiarity of many posters to each other, would make staking a good thing to have on here, if set up correctly


This is the key for me. Lots of APATers do this on FB already and it"s great for the sweat.

Think this is a good idea.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 30, 2012, 05:52:33 AM

Good feedback thus far, thanks.

Paulie - presume your point is to ensure the staker and the stakee do not play the same event?


Indeed, if you have staked someone into an APAT event then that might affect your play at the table and ugly words tend to get thrown about when that happens.

I don"t have an issue, per se, with two players in the same tournament swapping percentages as a way to reduce the variance however.

The idea of someone being staked into an APAT event by a non-player with a view to making a profit smacks too much of professionalism for me for something that is mean to be founded for amateurs.

On selling back pieces of an award seat, I thought that the idea was that the seat was entry into an event that you might not otherwise have been able to afford....not to make commercialise the win...after all, it cost the winner effectively nothing  and selling pieces, to me, is like selling an APAT seat over market value.

As always, my opinions are my own and others may, do and undoubtedly, will disagree.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: RioRodent on May 30, 2012, 08:26:06 AM


Good feedback thus far, thanks.

Paulie - presume your point is to ensure the staker and the stakee do not play the same event?


Indeed, if you have staked someone into an APAT event then that might affect your play at the table and ugly words tend to get thrown about when that happens.

I don"t have an issue, per se, with two players in the same tournament swapping percentages as a way to reduce the variance however.

The idea of someone being staked into an APAT event by a non-player with a view to making a profit smacks too much of professionalism for me for something that is mean to be founded for amateurs.

On selling back pieces of an award seat, I thought that the idea was that the seat was entry into an event that you might not otherwise have been able to afford....not to make commercialise the win...after all, it cost the winner effectively nothing  and selling pieces, to me, is like selling an APAT seat over market value.

As always, my opinions are my own and others may, do and undoubtedly, will disagree.


(http://blondepoker.com/forum/Smileys/default/PickMe.gif)

No Staking By Non-Player (Professionalism) + No Staking By Player In Same Tourney (Fear Of Collusion) = No Staking

I know of at least one APAT staking package sold on blonde a couple of years ago... most likely all to non-APAT players. Selling via the APAT forum would ensure that backers are pretty much all APAT players, thus negating the "professionally backed" fear;

and as has been mentioned, there are numerous people that swap percentages of each other in APAT events... this has always happened and will continue to do so. Player A swapping 10% with Player B is exactly the same as Player A selling 10% to Player B and Player B selling 10% to Player A.

As for not subsequently selling pieces of added value seats won... it can be argued that any backers in the original tournament should also have the same percentage of anything won in the prize tournament, although this doesn"t have to be the case - This is something that needs to clarified in any staking proposal. It is also common practice for people to sell action in tournaments that they have satellited into, and indeed to attempt to satellite into tournaments that they have already sold action in. If I win a seat into a tournament I can see no problem in selling pieces to help cover the cost of travel and hotel expenses.

It just cannot be policed/prevented and there is absolutely no need to try to.



Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: AMRN on May 30, 2012, 09:10:14 AM


It just cannot be policed/prevented and there is absolutely no need to try to.



^This.    Recognise that swapping and staking already happens offline within the APAT community, and probably in relation to some specific APAT tournaments - by creating the APAT staking area, all we would do is formalise what already happens, and extend it is an opportunity to others.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mporter123 on May 30, 2012, 10:55:35 AM
I think its a really good idea and would add a different aspect to the forum.

I personally don"t use Facebook a lot but would like the opportunity to buy pieces in players and potentially sell some of my own action from time to time. Having a space on the forum to accommodate that would be great.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: bhoywonder70 on May 30, 2012, 12:27:41 PM
Then there is the question of markups...?.....
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 30, 2012, 12:33:55 PM

Then there is the question of markups...?.....


True. However, I must hold my hand up to perhaps dragging this off-topic a little.

The issue Des raised was "Should APAT have a staking board?"

I have little interest either way as I am neither good enough to get staked or rich enough to do any staking.

Perhaps we can leave the specifics of how the staking would work to another thread when Des gets his answer or am I dragging this off-topic again?

Overall, my answer would be "YES" because it will, IMO, enhance the forum and potentially drive new visitors and/or membership.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: bhoywonder70 on May 30, 2012, 12:40:44 PM


Then there is the question of markups...?.....


True. However, I must hold my hand up to perhaps dragging this off-topic a little.

The issue Des raised was "Should APAT have a staking board?"

I have little interest either way as I am neither good enough to get staked or rich enough to do any staking.

Perhaps we can leave the specifics of how the staking would work to another thread when Des gets his answer or am I dragging this off-topic again?

Overall, my answer would be "YES" because it will, IMO, enhance the forum and potentially drive new visitors and/or membership.



Agreed....

Getting way ahead...

I"m all for staking....on a small scale personally...I can only attend a few per year..so yup...great idea
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mporter123 on May 30, 2012, 12:47:56 PM

Then there is the question of markups...?.....


Supply and demand will look after this. If someone selling action thinks they are worth a markup then they can charge whatever they like. If buyers think they warrant the markup then they will buy - if not they won"t.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: waltypies on May 30, 2012, 12:51:43 PM
All people should be staked via BANK TRANSFER only.  By doing this if there is a problem you have more rights.  If done via stars etc you do not have a leg to stand on.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: PHIL_TC on May 30, 2012, 12:52:28 PM
Sounds like a good idea to me


Excellent idea, and helps take APAT forward and retain market currency.

The community spirit around APAT is immense, and for that reason, policing the process will simple - in fact, it suspect it would almost police itself within the membership.

It may also act as a way of bringing new members to the fold - either people who play APAT events, but don"t use the forum, or totally new membership.


^^ this

As per tighty"s post split the boards into live and online.

Due to not being able to play much this year it would be great to have some sweats on other APAT players in events.

Would need a template knocking up that people could follow which would remove any ambiguity upon binkage. The last thing that we would want to see is people falling out over added seat wins, buying back action, markups etc. If the template is easy to use then I can see this being a winner.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: bhoywonder70 on May 30, 2012, 12:54:20 PM


Then there is the question of markups...?.....


Supply and demand will look after this. If someone selling action thinks they are worth a markup then they can charge whatever they like. If buyers think they warrant the markup then they will buy - if not they won"t.




Again getting way ahead.I was thinking of some kind of uniformity to keep in line with the apat ethos...

But for another time that debate
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mporter123 on May 30, 2012, 13:12:49 PM

All people should be staked via BANK TRANSFER only.  By doing this if there is a problem you have more rights.  If done via stars etc you do not have a leg to stand on.


Disagree with this. If you are concerned then you can make it clear in the stake that you will only accept bank transfer.


Then there is the question of markups...?.....

Again getting way ahead.I was thinking of some kind of uniformity to keep in line with the apat ethos...

But for another time that debate


Uniformity in staking appears to be difficult. I think the idea is APAT provide an area on the forum to stake players / get staked rather than actually deciding the rules each stake must follow (except obvious groundrules).
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 30, 2012, 13:17:19 PM
Again, we"re getting away from the question that Des asked.

Once the thread comes into existence would be the time (or perhaps just before) to discuss templates / procedures / markups and other explanations.

I have no doubt that, as per blonde, there will be a General Guidance & Information post at the top of the boards.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: calella on May 30, 2012, 13:23:27 PM
Interesting topic and even though i"m new to the forum and it"s my first post then i think it"s a very good idea to have a staking thread.

I use other forums and having decided to play next week"s Genting Poker Series game in Edinburgh thought I would post a staking thread and was delighted to get 50% backing which will i think improve my focus on the game.

Anyway, enjoying the site and look forward to playing in the Scottish game in October.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: waltypies on May 30, 2012, 13:33:00 PM


All people should be staked via BANK TRANSFER only.  By doing this if there is a problem you have more rights.  If done via stars etc you do not have a leg to stand on.


Disagree with this. If you are concerned then you can make it clear in the stake that you will only accept bank transfer.


Then there is the question of markups...?.....

Again getting way ahead.I was thinking of some kind of uniformity to keep in line with the apat ethos...

But for another time that debate


Uniformity in staking appears to be difficult. I think the idea is APAT provide an area on the forum to stake players / get staked rather than actually deciding the rules each stake must follow (except obvious groundrules).



I only say this just incase there is a dispute etc.  By accepting the money in your bank your agreeing to the terms.  If done via stars etc there is no legal obligation
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: pokerpops on May 30, 2012, 13:34:49 PM
Good idea and should be allowed to include selling bits of "added value" seats.

The risk of being grimmed is lower in a community such as APAT where the majority of people know each other from real life meetings.
The only issue I would have is the tendency for staking threads to occasionally drift into argumentative mode when questions are raised over whether markups are set at an appropriate level...
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: dwh103 on May 30, 2012, 13:41:59 PM
Overall, my answer would be "YES" because it will, IMO, enhance the forum and potentially drive new visitors and/or membership.


Agree with this. I would be in favour of a reasonably strict post count required to request staking - when 2+2 went down The Hendon Mob forum picked up a few requests from randoms and it didn"t quite feel right. Regardless of that I think it"d best to encourage people to be involved in the forum anyway.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Sugar_Free on May 30, 2012, 13:43:39 PM
I was actually discussing this at the weekend and while we thought it a good idea we could see why APAT were not doing it.
IMHO it would definitely enhance the forum, and those who don"t want to get involved don"t have to.

ps not sure about the minimum 300 posts thing, this could well see me adding nothing to threads while randomly throwing in a "This" or "+1" or "LOL"
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Sugar_Free on May 30, 2012, 13:45:34 PM
ps not sure about the minimum 300 posts thing, this could well see me adding nothing to threads while randomly throwing in a "This" or "+1" or "LOL"


LOL
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 30, 2012, 13:59:12 PM
The post count number would be purely arbitrary and I think 300 is probably too high for APAT. I don"t know what the average is but my guess is that 50 - 100 would serve.

Of course anyone asking for a stake should be able to produce verifiable evidence of results.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: noble1 on May 30, 2012, 14:04:52 PM

APAT have never previously allowed staking on the forum, but we"d like to hear what the members think.  Our concerns have always been around members being defrauded in some form of way.  That said we"ve operated the seat exchange for several years and I"m not aware of a transaction not completing as expected.  However the potential values involved in staking are quite different, so I"d welcome your feedback.

Maybe Rich can also tell us a bit about how it works on blonde?


if it is moderated as best as you can to provide protection from wrongdoers then i can"t see why not tbh....
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: duke3016 on May 30, 2012, 14:06:59 PM
I have staked people before and it is good to be able to assist people to play memorable games that otherwise are out of their bankroll. Although, historically, I have had one overriding criteria, I needed to know them personally. A thread like this would be a good thing I think, in that it would enable my historical reticence to be relaxed.  8)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 30, 2012, 14:12:56 PM


APAT have never previously allowed staking on the forum, but we"d like to hear what the members think.  Our concerns have always been around members being defrauded in some form of way.  That said we"ve operated the seat exchange for several years and I"m not aware of a transaction not completing as expected.  However the potential values involved in staking are quite different, so I"d welcome your feedback.

Maybe Rich can also tell us a bit about how it works on blonde?


if it is moderated as best as you can to provide protection from wrongdoers then i can"t see why not tbh....


Well there"s the thing....guidelines could be laid down that make sense but ultimately if a player lands a large payout it will require trust and honesty to ensure that money finds its way back to his / her staking team.  I have a great degree of confidence in our community, and the results at blonde appear positive, but there is always the possibility that a winner will not repay.  
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Marty719 on May 30, 2012, 14:13:03 PM

The post count number would be purely arbitrary and I think 300 is probably too high for APAT. I don"t know what the average is but my guess is that 50 - 100 would serve.

Of course anyone asking for a stake should be able to produce verifiable evidence of results.


I think 50-100 is too low.  The one thing the minimum post part protects from is people signing up for an account and attling through a quick 50posts just to get staking.  Also, the more posts by a member, the more the potential stakers will know about them, which is obv a good thing.

Think its a good idea to have a staking board, but think it would need to be policed to a certain extent.  Blondes board is a great example of a staking board done well, with the community self-policing the threads, but tht has only come with experience.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: RioRodent on May 30, 2012, 14:19:38 PM


The post count number would be purely arbitrary and I think 300 is probably too high for APAT. I don"t know what the average is but my guess is that 50 - 100 would serve.

Of course anyone asking for a stake should be able to produce verifiable evidence of results.


I think 50-100 is too low.  The one thing the minimum post part protects from is people signing up for an account and attling through a quick 50posts just to get staking.  Also, the more posts by a member, the more the potential stakers will know about them, which is obv a good thing.

Think its a good idea to have a staking board, but think it would need to be policed to a certain extent.  Blondes board is a great example of a staking board done well, with the community self-policing the threads, but tht has only come with experience.


And post that just says "+1" or "^^This" should be ignored for post count purposes... Sorry Daniel!! :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 30, 2012, 14:42:44 PM


The post count number would be purely arbitrary and I think 300 is probably too high for APAT. I don"t know what the average is but my guess is that 50 - 100 would serve.

Of course anyone asking for a stake should be able to produce verifiable evidence of results.


I think 50-100 is too low.  The one thing the minimum post part protects from is people signing up for an account and attling through a quick 50posts just to get staking.  Also, the more posts by a member, the more the potential stakers will know about them, which is obv a good thing.

Think its a good idea to have a staking board, but think it would need to be policed to a certain extent.  Blondes board is a great example of a staking board done well, with the community self-policing the threads, but tht has only come with experience.


I have no idea of the average number of posts per member but my guess is that it is significantly less than 300, no doubt Des can confirm or not.

As I said, the number is entirely arbitrary. Take "Sugar Free" who I"ve known for years, played with and shared the same Team games in APAT. Is he vocal on the APAT forum, not with only 75 posts he"s not but would I trust him with a stake....probably (he"s not THAT good  ;D).

In case of any doubt, one can always PM a mod who can review a user"s post and see of they are all +1s, LOL etc and reply.

In most cases, I don"t think this will be a problem. Let"s JFDI.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: PHIL_TC on May 30, 2012, 14:50:52 PM

The post count number would be purely arbitrary and I think 300 is probably too high for APAT. I don"t know what the average is but my guess is that 50 - 100 would serve.

Of course anyone asking for a stake should be able to produce verifiable evidence of results.


Good guess Paulie, just done a quick database query.

For those members who have posted (postcount > 0) then the average is 56.74 per member x
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: pokerpops on May 30, 2012, 15:01:48 PM


The post count number would be purely arbitrary and I think 300 is probably too high for APAT. I don"t know what the average is but my guess is that 50 - 100 would serve.

Of course anyone asking for a stake should be able to produce verifiable evidence of results.


Good guess Paulie, just done a quick database query.

For those members who have posted (postcount > 0) then the average is 56.74 per member x


No idea how to do this, but try searching for >10 and weed out the very new and the ones who posted once or twice and then went dormant...
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: PHIL_TC on May 30, 2012, 15:06:02 PM



The post count number would be purely arbitrary and I think 300 is probably too high for APAT. I don"t know what the average is but my guess is that 50 - 100 would serve.

Of course anyone asking for a stake should be able to produce verifiable evidence of results.


Good guess Paulie, just done a quick database query.

For those members who have posted (postcount > 0) then the average is 56.74 per member x


No idea how to do this, but try searching for >10 and weed out the very new and the ones who posted once or twice and then went dormant...


We have the technology Sir....

For members who have posted > 10 then the average amongst that happy bunch is 237.22 per member x
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 30, 2012, 15:36:11 PM


For members who have posted > 10 then the average amongst that happy bunch is 237.22 per member x


Although I brought the subject of averages up...it"s not really a meaningful statistic.

It"s the number of users covering each "band" of posting ranges.  I"ve got over 3500 but I"m hardly representative.

If you could tell us how many users there are for say:

50+
100+
200+
300+

I think that would be more relevant.

My guess is that the VAST majority have less than 200.

Factor in the ones who posted a lot a long time ago (Kinfishi) and then went away...and the number of possible user able to participate would go WAAAY down.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 30, 2012, 15:42:36 PM



For members who have posted > 10 then the average amongst that happy bunch is 237.22 per member x


Although I brought the subject of averages up...it"s not really a meaningful statistic.

It"s the number of users covering each "band" of posting ranges.  I"ve got over 3500 but I"m hardly representative.

If you could tell us how many users there are for say:

50+
100+
200+
300+

I think that would be more relevant.

My guess is that the VAST majority have less than 200.

Factor in the ones who posted a lot a long time ago (Kinfishi) and then went away...and the number of possible user able to participate would go WAAAY down.



This is detail and as you said yourself a couple of times earlier Paulie, not really on topic atm.

So far the vast majority seem in favour.  Anyone against?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: ck1888 on May 30, 2012, 15:46:14 PM
I have wanted to stake John Murray a couple of times but money wasn"t involved  8)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 30, 2012, 15:51:05 PM


This is detail and as you said yourself a couple of times earlier Paulie, not really on topic atm.

So far the vast majority seem in favour.  Anyone against?


Yeah, I know. Every time I think I"m out, they drag me back in!

JFDI  ;D

Two Child Boards of "General Poker" ?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: fandango on May 30, 2012, 16:37:57 PM
I believe it to be a good idea, APAT going forward with the times.. I think it"s pretty safe to say most if not all APAT regs are trustworthy.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: stone on May 30, 2012, 16:38:41 PM




For members who have posted > 10 then the average amongst that happy bunch is 237.22 per member x


Although I brought the subject of averages up...it"s not really a meaningful statistic.

It"s the number of users covering each "band" of posting ranges.  I"ve got over 3500 but I"m hardly representative.

If you could tell us how many users there are for say:

50+
100+
200+
300+

I think that would be more relevant.

My guess is that the VAST majority have less than 200.

Factor in the ones who posted a lot a long time ago (Kinfishi) and then went away...and the number of possible user able to participate would go WAAAY down.



This is detail and as you said yourself a couple of times earlier Paulie, not really on topic atm.

So far the vast majority seem in favour.  Anyone against?


I"ll put myself in the stocks for the rotton Tomatoes!

My possibly outdated personal view is that I"m not keen on staking at all. Surely an APAT consideration needs to be how to grow players skills and to me Bank-roll mgt is a key skill. I worry that staking is seen as some sort of short cut to playing higher, I just dont believe its sustainable in the long run.

Just to be clear I"m ok with % swapping amongst friends its fun and I guess if you do bink a sat into a biggy, selling some off aint bad either.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Geo on May 30, 2012, 17:25:19 PM





For members who have posted > 10 then the average amongst that happy bunch is 237.22 per member x


Although I brought the subject of averages up...it"s not really a meaningful statistic.

It"s the number of users covering each "band" of posting ranges.  I"ve got over 3500 but I"m hardly representative.

If you could tell us how many users there are for say:

50+
100+
200+
300+

I think that would be more relevant.

My guess is that the VAST majority have less than 200.

Factor in the ones who posted a lot a long time ago (Kinfishi) and then went away...and the number of possible user able to participate would go WAAAY down.



This is detail and as you said yourself a couple of times earlier Paulie, not really on topic atm.

So far the vast majority seem in favour.  Anyone against?


I"ll put myself in the stocks for the rotton Tomatoes!

My possibly outdated personal view is that I"m not keen on staking at all. Surely an APAT consideration needs to be how to grow players skills and to me Bank-roll mgt is a key skill. I worry that staking is seen as some sort of short cut to playing higher, I just dont believe its sustainable in the long run.

Just to be clear I"m ok with % swapping amongst friends its fun and I guess if you do bink a sat into a biggy, selling some off aint bad either.



Would bankroll management not also include costs for travelling and accommodation when related to APAT events?

Living in Scotland for example hinders the amount of events I and others can attend throughout the year. It may well be the case for other areas also.

Peronally I think the staking boards could work well within APAT. I have used blonde as both a stakee and staker. In some cases the individual has satted in and the staking actually helps them cover the additional costs as noted above. This has never really caused any problems that I"ve seen.

This year I am unlikely to be able to attend any events apart from Scotland, however I have kept an interest by buying pieces of action from others.

Geo

Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: AJDUK on May 30, 2012, 19:21:41 PM

I have wanted to stake John Murray a couple of times but money wasn"t involved  8)


+1
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Fatcatstu on May 30, 2012, 20:20:32 PM


I have wanted to stake John Murray a couple of times but money wasn"t involved  8)


+1


stop trying to raise your number of votes so you can get staked!!!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: MikeSlee on May 30, 2012, 20:28:59 PM
I think this would be a very good idea.  I am not always in a position to take part in all the tourneys that I want, and have often considered perhaps staking another.  Doing this in a controlled manner through the APAT forums would be great.

Plus the fact I have large piles of cash to invest in a suitable poker player  :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: MikeSlee on May 30, 2012, 20:29:55 PM

I think this would be a very good idea.  I am not always in a position to take part in all the tourneys that I want, and have often considered perhaps staking another.  Doing this in a controlled manner through the APAT forums would be great.

Plus the fact I have large piles of cash to invest in a suitable poker player  :)


The bit about the large piles of cash, may not be entirely true
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: MikeSlee on May 30, 2012, 20:31:01 PM


I think this would be a very good idea.  I am not always in a position to take part in all the tourneys that I want, and have often considered perhaps staking another.  Doing this in a controlled manner through the APAT forums would be great.

Plus the fact I have large piles of cash to invest in a suitable poker player  :)


The bit about the large piles of cash, may not be entirely true


and this is not a completely obvious attempt to up my post count without just putting LOL or +1 in a post
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: fandango on May 30, 2012, 21:56:43 PM



I think this would be a very good idea.  I am not always in a position to take part in all the tourneys that I want, and have often considered perhaps staking another.  Doing this in a controlled manner through the APAT forums would be great.

Plus the fact I have large piles of cash to invest in a suitable poker player  :)


The bit about the large piles of cash, may not be entirely true


and this is not a completely obvious attempt to up my post count without just putting LOL or +1 in a post


282 more to go  ;D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: KarmaDope on May 30, 2012, 21:58:14 PM
Completely in favour.

As long as people realise that they are private deals and APAT aren"t involved in any way at all.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Zozzy on May 30, 2012, 22:02:42 PM
I am in favor of an APAT Staking Board.
There is a community spirit that already exists, so this will enhance it in my opinion.

I am always impressed by the admin and mods attitude to fairness and integrity. This was highlighted recently in the discussions surrounding regional teams competing in the National Online League.
With this in mind I am confident that the ground rules will be well thought out and implemented.
I am also aware that APAT won"t be held responsible in the unlikely event of default.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Sef on May 30, 2012, 22:53:42 PM
Ok I only read the first few pages, i"ll go back and read the rest after I get my tuppence in... I think staking has become a massive aspect of poker in the past year in both proffessional and amateur players. I think it"s a great idea to allow it without restricting it to non APAT tournies. As mentioned the community in APAT is strong and I wouldn"t forsee any issues between parties with the rules in the 2nd post in place. Also the staking or SAPs/BAPs may allow players to participate who wouldn"t normally afford to.

In reply to paulies initial thoughts, it"s an interesting point but I wouldn"t imagine any collusion or different play against a staked player in the same tourny as the stakee. I have came across this in a couple of tournies I have personally sold action for and have not felt my investors treated me any different at the tables. I think with the sense of community/competition between APAT members there would be no issues on that front. But maybe as a precaution it could be put in the rules that you guys running the show must be notified of any said parties involved with each other in the same tourny before it starts.

All in all my initial thought is yes, it"s a great idea.

On a side note... I manage another forum who allows free staking ads but charges a % of any winnings if any, i.e. 2-5%, to the forum which is then used by the forum to offer stakes for others or put on freerolls ect. ect.. Just a thought.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Sef on May 30, 2012, 23:16:55 PM
Yep after reading the rest I pretty much agree with it all. It"s a private deal between players and investors and APAT cannot be held responsible for any disputes. A template contract type paragraph written up to go with the stake request should cover the legal side of things something like "I so&so promise to pay any winnings within x amount of time ect." but getting a bit ahead again. With the right ground rules in place it"s defo a winner. Oh and as for the post count thing it would need to strict on lesser known members I think.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: AJDUK on May 31, 2012, 00:13:17 AM



I have wanted to stake John Murray a couple of times but money wasn"t involved  8)


+1


stop trying to raise your number of votes so you can get staked!!!


-1
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Fatcatstu on May 31, 2012, 00:17:37 AM




I have wanted to stake John Murray a couple of times but money wasn"t involved  8)


+1


stop trying to raise your number of votes so you can get staked!!!


-1


like  ;D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: MikeSlee on May 31, 2012, 13:29:09 PM




I think this would be a very good idea.  I am not always in a position to take part in all the tourneys that I want, and have often considered perhaps staking another.  Doing this in a controlled manner through the APAT forums would be great.

Plus the fact I have large piles of cash to invest in a suitable poker player  :)


The bit about the large piles of cash, may not be entirely true


and this is not a completely obvious attempt to up my post count without just putting LOL or +1 in a post


282 more to go  ;D


281 :o
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: kevod85 on May 31, 2012, 14:17:04 PM
Staking sounds like another good way for me to loose money gambling :) gets my vote!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: deanp27 on May 31, 2012, 14:50:45 PM
Just think it all depends but I think it may take the largest amount of "modding" than any other part of the site.

With decent guidelines etc it should work ok, maybe introduce it on a trial basis?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 31, 2012, 15:07:04 PM

Just think it all depends but I think it may take the largest amount of "modding" than any other part of the site.

With decent guidelines etc it should work ok, maybe introduce it on a trial basis?


The only "modding" that would be required would be to stamp on any flaming / abuse etc.

I would hope that other members of the community would comment about whether a particular offering / deal was good value or not but that would NOT be a Moderator function.

In the end, the overriding factor is that every deal is offered &/or taken at the staker"s own risk and it is entirely up to them whether it is +EV / ~EV / -EV for the participants.

APAT, I am sure, would not wish to get into that area other than offering Guidelines as per those on blonde.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Sugarnes on May 31, 2012, 15:59:35 PM
Seems like a very sound idea to me. Not least because I find blonde a bit big and scary and I reckon it"d be fun!

Also strongly agree with the posts about enlivening and drawing new people into the forum. My personal fave chains were the "what you playing tonight" ones with updates and real shared excitement when someone went deep - one of those things no doubt, but they are now all too infrequent - this could give that kind of thing a boost.

Two-penneth on other stuff - could consider simple matrix so 300 posts or 100 + 2 live or 4 online APAT events etc. Also if any anxiety about that bar and other stuff (though none to little thusfar it seems) could mitigate somewhat with v.high bar for 6 months let it bed in check the world doesn"t end then drop it presuming people are agreeable.

David
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mporter123 on May 31, 2012, 16:36:40 PM

Not least because I find blonde a bit big and scary


Brunettes ftw

If we get it up quick enough do we still have time to stake Des into the WSOP One Drop?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: GiMac on May 31, 2012, 16:37:41 PM
I think it can only add to what APAt already offers. Good idea imho.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on May 31, 2012, 16:41:06 PM


Not least because I find blonde a bit big and scary


Brunettes ftw

If we get it up quick enough do we still have time to stake Des into the WSOP One Drop?


Damn, you"ve seen through my cunning plan.... ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on May 31, 2012, 16:42:38 PM


Not least because I find blonde a bit big and scary


Brunettes ftw



Sorry...ginggers rule. Ask Des!  ;D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: poker_jason on May 31, 2012, 20:38:09 PM
Summary for Des/Paulie - YES.  :)

Okay, In favour of this. I"m only really involved in 2 forums and it would be great to be able to ask/give staking on those 2 forums. Most of this goes on behind the scenes so why not bring into the open so to speak. (I primarily ask)

The post count is kinda of weird. Under some of the proposed numbers 100/300 I currently wouldn"t qualify whilst it was quite probably someone who posts frequently would meet the post qualification regardless of the amount of online or live APAT tourneys played. (My live count is 6 - I think, JAPAT isn"t official,  :o) - according to my profile I"m a new member. I just don"t feel the need to post / have the time.

Am I more/less reliable than the high frequency poster? I do understand however that you have to put the criteria somewhere.

I really like the idea of the template (just so you can structure the arrangements in a uniform way which people can easily follow).

I think the detail - markups/EV/stats is really between those asking and staking. (Afterall most of the people on here believe that they can beat at least 50% of the players in any poker room yet we choose to all get together 6 or more times a year in said poker room! I question our decision making process when it comes to finding a good spot ;))

I think one of the principles in poker (and staking/swopping percentages is part of that) is never put up more than you can afford and are prepared to lose. That said we"re a fairly swell bunch - I know I"d rather do business with the people I"ve met through APAT than another well known large (US) forum.

See you at the next APAT.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Fluence on May 31, 2012, 22:19:40 PM
In principle I think staking here would be a good thing.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: SirPercival on May 31, 2012, 22:22:18 PM
I have staked APAT players in the past and also been staked myself. (The former being more profitable than the latter  :( )

I think having a board on here would only add to the existing APAT spirit.

The Blonde community have the experience of the Blatch case. Did this have a negative effect on Blonde? I personally dont think it did I"m not really in a position to say. APAT do need to consider the risk of damage to the brand but I think it is minimal bearing in mind the Blatch thing wasn"t really even about poker. My thought would be stick to poker stakes only and lets not get out of hand with other type stakes.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Honeybadg on May 31, 2012, 22:50:40 PM
Has to be a good idea ...

... I have staked a few people for NIL return!

I have also been staked for NIL return.

Staked players play weird(er) - hence encourage the market - then look to profit from the weird play ...

Alt - buy lottery tickets.

L
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Swinebag on May 31, 2012, 23:01:08 PM
I like this idea. I stake a fair bit and sell the odd slice now and then as well. It would be great for the APAT community and would create some excellent sweats.

Jason makes a good point about post count. IMO anyone should be allowed to put up a staking request. If its some chancer with 2 posts wanting $10K for the WSOP then the silence on that thread will speak volumes. Conversely, "known" players will get staked by people they know, no matter how much they contribute to the forum.

Obviously people with less posts may have difficulty selling out but they should not be discouraged from asking
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: thinsy147 on May 31, 2012, 23:47:58 PM
I think its a great idea. I joined the blonde site when searching for staking possibilities but felt I would never reach the required targets before being able to apply for staking! However, with APAT I would feel confident in staking members. I don"t know many members that well to be honest and when I have played live APAT events I"ve probably walked straight past people who I"ve had conversations with online (this is probably my own fault for not being bold enough to introduce myself!) despite this I would still stake them.

I would also like to think that other members would have confidence in me!

As far as who should/shouldn"t be allowed to offer stakes my thoughts are that a member should have at least 419 posts  ;)

Seriously though, I think there should be a minimum but nothing out of reach of new/occasional members. As someone said in an earlier post  "If its some chancer with 2 posts wanting $10K for the WSOP then the silence on that thread will speak volumes. Conversely, "known" players will get staked by people they know, no matter how much they contribute to the forum."


Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: WYoung83 on June 01, 2012, 00:31:42 AM
Great idea. Gives people a chance to play higher buyins than they normally would. Also gives people a nice sweat if their horse make a ukipt etc final table.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on June 03, 2012, 00:25:36 AM
There seems to be a lot of positive response to the staking board idea and offering a free service along the lines of those offered elsewhere would be a relatively straight forward process, but I"d like to get your feedback to a managed option that would be revenue generating for APAT.

With the managed verison:-

- APAT would validate the identity of players requesting staking via Facebook / Forum / Pocket Fives / Hendon Mob as appropriate, before issuing a license which will enable that person to post requests via the staking board. 

-  This would enable players to request staking on the forum even if they have not been prolific posters in the past.

- APAT would maintain a Licensed Player Directory, containing the identity (real and forum) and hendon mob link for all licensed players. 

- APAT would manage the distribution of funds to and from stakers.  This will lessen the administration on licensed players who book a win and it will remove the requirement for stakers having to issue their banking / payment details to players they may not know well.

-  APAT will also offer a syndicate service to allow players to pool resources together to invest in higher value staking opportunities (WSOP / EPT, etc).

-  APAT would charge players looking for staking a one off license fee of £10 plus 1% of any prize money won in the staked tournament.  So if for example a staked player sold 50% of his / her action and went on to win £3,000, the amount going back to stakers would be £1,500, while the staked player would also return £30 to APAT. 

-  The service would be free to stakers.

With regards to the charges, it is my opinion a one off license fee of £10 would deter time wasters and act as a form of identity check.  In addition, the 1% of prize money, while unlikely to provide any meaningful revenue for APAT, would justify our investing some resource into ensuring the service is managed and publicised in such a way that would encourage as many of the members as possible to give staking a try. 

The above said, this would remain a "buyer beware" service.  Ultimately if a licensed player won £3,000 and decided to not honour their committment to pay the stakers and APAT, we would publicise the theft and ban them for life, but it would need to be understood in advance that APAT would not be held responsible for payment of any outstanding monies to stakers.  We would be acting as an intermediary between the transacting parties.

So with the above in mind, would members prefer a free or managed staking service?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: dwh103 on June 03, 2012, 00:53:52 AM
On a personal note, I"d prefer a free service with strict guidelines (specified templates, forum rules etc). I"m a control freak and prefer the responsibility of the money to lie with me. If there"s a time limit and the staker is a little slow transferring, how does the player know if/when they"ve transferred?

However, the licencing idea is interesting. It"s a USP and could bring more traffic to APAT long term, along with added revenue. Wouldn"t say I wouldn"t use it either if that"s the route you chose to go.

It would be nice to have a licenced player list, but it doesn"t really remove any risk and I"d just prefer to do the admin myself.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: SirPercival on June 03, 2012, 08:50:03 AM
I think its an excellent idea Des.

I particularly like the thought of a pool of APAT players hitting the WSOP/EPT/UKIPT etc backed by APAT stakers with pooled prize monies. Would make a great forum update. But maybe I"m getting ahead of myself...

Players who are experienced at staking can always continue with their existing methods. This idea brings staking to the people who perhaps wouldn"t have tried it before - bang in line with the APAT values etc.

I have been staked before and I always said I wouldn"t do it again, but under this arrangement I probably would. I would stake others for sure as it gives me an added intrest in events I can"t attend and doing it through APAT just adds to the feel good factor.

I"m in - let me know how to ship the £10  ;D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: lucasj37 on June 03, 2012, 10:26:02 AM

I like this idea. I stake a fair bit and sell the odd slice now and then as well. It would be great for the APAT community and would create some excellent sweats.

Jason makes a good point about post count. IMO anyone should be allowed to put up a staking request. If its some chancer with 2 posts wanting $10K for the WSOP then the silence on that thread will speak volumes. Conversely, "known" players will get staked by people they know, no matter how much they contribute to the forum.

Obviously people with less posts may have difficulty selling out but they should not be discouraged from asking



This

I have staked people in the past both live & online.

I have also been staked myself a few times for live events that are slightly outside of my bankroll. Strict bankroll management would require 100x buy in for a MTT £200 events would therefore be out of my reach.

In my experience the standard at these events are no higher than an APAT one.

I don"t think amount of posts should officially be a criteria for being staked as backers will be able to judge for themselves any risk involved.

Also juice on stake should be allowed as once again it is up to the backer to assess the value of the "bet".

I think it would enhance the forum and increase the spirit (if that is possible).

In short 100% yes. The licensed idea with APAT getting a cut sounds perfect.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Sugar_Free on June 03, 2012, 11:17:27 AM
Some bits and pieces I like, some I don"t.

I like the idea of the licencing and £10 fee although I think that the APAT take should be a percentage of the percentage sold, if you follow me, rather than a set percentage of the whole.


- APAT would manage the distribution of funds to and from stakers.  This will lessen the administration on licensed players who book a win and it will remove the requirement for stakers having to issue their banking / payment details to players they may not know well.



This bit sounds like you"ll be requiring the equivalent of a "client account" and trust me, you don"t want to be involved in all the rules, regulations and admin that will entail.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mylesfdo on June 03, 2012, 12:05:42 PM

There seems to be a lot of positive response to the staking board idea and offering a free service along the lines of those offered elsewhere would be a relatively straight forward process, but I"d like to get your feedback to a managed option that would be revenue generating for APAT.

With the managed verison:-

- APAT would validate the identity of players requesting staking via Facebook / Forum / Pocket Fives / Hendon Mob as appropriate, before issuing a license which will enable that person to post requests via the staking board. 

-  This would enable players to request staking on the forum even if they have not been prolific posters in the past.

- APAT would maintain a Licensed Player Directory, containing the identity (real and forum) and hendon mob link for all licensed players. 

- APAT would manage the distribution of funds to and from stakers.  This will lessen the administration on licensed players who book a win and it will remove the requirement for stakers having to issue their banking / payment details to players they may not know well.

-  APAT will also offer a syndicate service to allow players to pool resources together to invest in higher value staking opportunities (WSOP / EPT, etc).

-  APAT would charge players looking for staking a one off license fee of £10 plus 1% of any prize money won in the staked tournament.  So if for example a staked player sold 50% of his / her action and went on to win £3,000, the amount going back to stakers would be £1,500, while the staked player would also return £30 to APAT. 

-  The service would be free to stakers.

With regards to the charges, it is my opinion a one off license fee of £10 would deter time wasters and act as a form of identity check.  In addition, the 1% of prize money, while unlikely to provide any meaningful revenue for APAT, would justify our investing some resource into ensuring the service is managed and publicised in such a way that would encourage as many of the members as possible to give staking a try. 

The above said, this would remain a "buyer beware" service.  Ultimately if a licensed player won £3,000 and decided to not honour their committment to pay the stakers and APAT, we would publicise the theft and ban them for life, but it would need to be understood in advance that APAT would not be held responsible for payment of any outstanding monies to stakers.  We would be acting as an intermediary between the transacting parties.

So with the above in mind, would members prefer a free or managed staking service?


Most of this sounds great at first glance and great ideas there Des.

Are you looking for this to be mainly for live events or the majority of it online?

Live events are obviously much bigger buy-ins and usually only run at weekends so having an online option would generate more stakes being created and more revenue for APAT.

The Liscensed Player Directory is a great idea and would help stakers know who they are backing etc etc and generate more confidence.

Will backers be able to offer certain stakes and request applications from horses?...e.g I offer a $110 stake to play 10x$11 45 mans on Stars and request horses to apply with stats etc OR will it be just for horses to request backing?  Again if you have the option for backers to offer stakes then more stakes will be generated etc etc.

Leading on from the above think the APAT controlling fund distrbution is not the way forward tbh.....say I offer a stake for horse to run set of mtt"s one night starting at 7/9pm and I get back from work at 6pm and spot an ideal applicant who has stated that they are ready and waiting to go.......will there be time for the $$ to be shipped to APAT account and then onto Horse?......surely it would just be easier and quicker for me to ship on Stars and have any winnings sent back on there also.......with the Player Directory in place I should feel confident in sending money and receiving winnings back if the correct initial checks have been made to allow horse to apply for my stake.

"APAT will also offer a syndicate service to allow players to pool resources together to invest in higher value staking opportunities (WSOP / EPT, etc)".......can you explain a bit more how this would work?

If you are going to offer a staking service then defo APAT have to be making some revenue out of this and like you say the £10 initial fee would deter hit and runnners and timewasters but with the 1% from winnings APAT will not generate huge amounts of revenue.......why not charge players requesting backing in form of buy a piece request a set up fee of say £3-5 to be paid before the BAP is opened and made live on the site and then the additional 1% of any winnnings?......Im sure most players requesting backing would be happy to pay this fee if they know they have a great chance of selling all shares and getting the $$ to play in their specified events etc.

Great ideas though and cant wait to see this get off the ground.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Honeybadg on June 03, 2012, 12:08:38 PM
Agree that it should be a % of the % sold and not the whole win ...

Happy enough with fees.

I like the idea of syndicates to allow people to enter larger events and fly the flag.

Out of interest what would APAT do with the monies of a massive win?

(Who owns APAT?)

L
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: TightEnd on June 03, 2012, 12:12:26 PM
I investigated the "commercial" aspects a while ago

The advice I received was the Financial Services Authority licencing might be an issue to be an intermediary holding third party funds

I stopped at that point!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on June 03, 2012, 12:32:55 PM

Agree that it should be a % of the % sold and not the whole win ...

Happy enough with fees.

I like the idea of syndicates to allow people to enter larger events and fly the flag.

Out of interest what would APAT do with the monies of a massive win?

(Who owns APAT?)

L


APAT is owned by some private investors. Guys like me who had an interest in poker at a recreational level and who each brought some skill to the party prior to or since our launch. Tikay and Tighty are shareholders for example.

Given the perilous state of the sponsorship market at the moment, I am driving several initiatives that will generate revenue, with the goal of ensuring that APAT does not become overly dependent on the online operators. For example I have a call lined up to discuss a big initiative with Pocket Fives next week and we will launch two new products in July.  This is a do or die market at the moment and I want APAT to be amongst the doers.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Waz1892 on June 03, 2012, 12:35:54 PM

I investigated the "commercial" aspects a while ago

The advice I received was the Financial Services Authority licencing might be an issue to be an intermediary holding third party funds

I stopped at that point!


Couldn"t this been done by instead of a licensed player directory which charges a £10 fee, and holds the sums in an intermediary capicity, but as a Members Only criteria for Staking/Stacked,  Membership being charged at £10?

Would this make it more easier? I have I mis-understood.

Great idea for the whoel staking either way.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on June 03, 2012, 12:38:27 PM

I investigated the "commercial" aspects a while ago

The advice I received was the Financial Services Authority licencing might be an issue to be an intermediary holding third party funds

I stopped at that point!


Thanks for the feedback to date everyone, and please keep your ideas coming. If we do this, I would like it to be right.

Given Tighty"s experience above, I would remove the suggestion that APAT would act as a middleman for fund transfers.

I would also agree that APAT earning 1% of the value of the stakers winnings, paid by the licensed player, makes more sense than 1% of total.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: deanp27 on June 03, 2012, 12:48:48 PM
As it is the stakee effectively paying the fee for a managed service, which sounds good in principle btw, what are the advantages for the stakee being staked through here for a one-off event rather than trying to get stakes somewhere else for free?

I like the ideas you have but if I wanted to be staked for an event I am not sure that this would be my first choice due to the fees and %s eating into my equity.

Once you start charging a fee I think you need several factors that differentiate you from other sites and sources of staking.
Just my take on it really.

Maybe if you did it on a free basis you could insist on some hand analysis to be posted from the tournament as a condition in order to stimulate the strategy section?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: deanp27 on June 03, 2012, 12:52:49 PM
Also would never consider holding the funds given money laundering regs. As a professional firm, we don"t even hold third party funds due to risk and paperwork required so I"d suggest this as a strict no-no
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on June 03, 2012, 12:54:30 PM

As it is the stakee effectively paying the fee for a managed service, which sounds good in principle btw, what are the advantages for the stakee being staked through here for a one-off event rather than trying to get stakes somewhere else for free?

I like the ideas you have but if I wanted to be staked for an event I am not sure that this would be my first choice due to the fees and %s eating into my equity.

Once you start charging a fee I think you need several factors that differentiate you from other sites and sources of staking.
Just my take on it really.

Maybe if you did it on a free basis you could insist on some hand analysis to be posted from the tournament as a condition in order to stimulate the strategy section?


Actually my thinking was that we don"t want to compete with the other sites in this market.  Adding a premium should keep the APAT market manageable and perhaps under the radar of the more opportunistic staker chasers.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Swinebag on June 03, 2012, 13:15:48 PM
Don"t mind the idea of the £10 one off and the 1% for the reason given by Des above

My only reservation is that the 1% refelects other stakers 1%, given that some BAP"s will be with or without stakeback
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: poker_jason on June 04, 2012, 01:01:43 AM
Late, Tired & Confused.

What is meant by a Licence? You verify who a person is and give them permission to post as stakee/staker? Pay £10 for the prvilege. What sort of checks are intended?  

Sounds like we putting obstacles in peoples way. I assume you are able to restrict a forum area to specific users?

Kinda like the managed service approach - would like to understand how that would work. Especially handling of money (Are you going to hold a DB of peoples bank details........hmmm)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Bigfella42 on June 04, 2012, 08:43:24 AM
Jason I think Des has said above that APAT would not now act as  middleman so they wouldn"t need bank details. Having said that a lot of staking is paid by bank transfer and bank account details are routinely pm"d so I would have welcomed a more secure way of doing this.

I think the suggestion from Des is a good one as realistically the only people who would seek staking this way (fee based plus % of winnings) would be those who support APAT and who would be happy to give something back to the community when they cash.

The stakee can choose to take the 1% APAT cut into account when setting the selling percentage if they so choose and if they explain this in their staking request.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: poker_jason on June 04, 2012, 21:04:59 PM
I apologise if this sounded arsey - it wasn"t meant to be in any shape. Honestly, I think the APAT guys do an amazing job.

I"m geninuely interested in "what checks" are proposed and by the definition/detail of a "Licence".

I guess we"ll know when they know/decide.

Agree "The stakee can choose to take the 1% APAT cut into account when setting the selling percentage if they so choose and if they explain this in their staking request." I"d pretty much assume most would do this.

p.s. Can I be first to put myself forward to be staked in $1500 WSOP event (aka 2013)..... :)

Not so late or confused - just tired (day at folly farm with my children). edited out kids due to bad pun...


Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: noble1 on June 05, 2012, 02:06:30 AM

There seems to be a lot of positive response to the staking board idea and offering a free service along the lines of those offered elsewhere would be a relatively straight forward process, but I"d like to get your feedback to a managed option that would be revenue generating for APAT.


-  APAT would charge players looking for staking a one off license fee of £10 plus 1% of any prize money won in the staked tournament.  So if for example a staked player sold 50% of his / her action and went on to win £3,000, the amount going back to stakers would be £1,500, while the staked player would also return £30 to APAT. 


With regards to the charges, it is my opinion a one off license fee of £10 would deter time wasters and act as a form of identity check.  In addition, the 1% of prize money, while unlikely to provide any meaningful revenue for APAT, would justify our investing some resource into ensuring the service is managed and publicised in such a way that would encourage as many of the members as possible to give staking a try. 


on the 1% fee thingy Des, will APAT have the fee capped ?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on June 05, 2012, 18:15:12 PM

I apologise if this sounded ****y - it wasn"t meant to be in any shape. Honestly, I think the APAT guys do an amazing job.

I"m geninuely interested in "what checks" are proposed and by the definition/detail of a "Licence".

I guess we"ll know when they know/decide.

Agree "The stakee can choose to take the 1% APAT cut into account when setting the selling percentage if they so choose and if they explain this in their staking request." I"d pretty much assume most would do this.

p.s. Can I be first to put myself forward to be staked in $1500 WSOP event (aka 2013)..... :)

Not so late or confused - just tired (day at folly farm with my children). edited out kids due to bad pun...





Quote
I"m geninuely interested in "what checks" are proposed and by the definition/detail of a "Licence".

I guess we"ll know when they know/decide.


Where a player is less well known on the forum we"ll connect with them on Facebook, investigate their record on the Hendon Mob or sites like Pocket Fives.  Ultimately if we find that an individual has no friends and record, then we will not license them to post staking requests on the staking board. 

If we do go ahead with the staking initiative we will do so on a board that everyday posters will be unable to post on, unless licensed to do so by APAT.  That step, and the addition of fees should remove some of the opportunistic requests also.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on June 05, 2012, 18:18:26 PM


There seems to be a lot of positive response to the staking board idea and offering a free service along the lines of those offered elsewhere would be a relatively straight forward process, but I"d like to get your feedback to a managed option that would be revenue generating for APAT.


-  APAT would charge players looking for staking a one off license fee of £10 plus 1% of any prize money won in the staked tournament.  So if for example a staked player sold 50% of his / her action and went on to win £3,000, the amount going back to stakers would be £1,500, while the staked player would also return £30 to APAT. 


With regards to the charges, it is my opinion a one off license fee of £10 would deter time wasters and act as a form of identity check.  In addition, the 1% of prize money, while unlikely to provide any meaningful revenue for APAT, would justify our investing some resource into ensuring the service is managed and publicised in such a way that would encourage as many of the members as possible to give staking a try. 


on the 1% fee thingy Des, will APAT have the fee capped ?


I don"t think we would cap it Mark.  I would envisage the majority of wins would be tiny, but a speculative large win could be incredibly helpful to APAT also.  
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Sef on June 05, 2012, 18:21:30 PM
I actually like the 1 off £10 fee idea to deter any old chancer. The % of winnings to APAT, as i said at the start, should be standard for allowing to advertise the request and I"m sure we all know the revenue generated by it would benefit us as members in future. Regulate the part of the forum to a point YES, act as middle man a definitave NO. Transactions between staker and stakee only.

Also not sure if it"s possible and the legal work, if any, needed for this, but anyone in the database to accept the Ts&Cs when joining it so that any requests/sales can be legally binding between the 2 parties (not to involve APAT)?

Also I don"t think there should be a cap on the fee.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Zozzy on June 10, 2012, 22:36:23 PM
I like the idea of the £10 fee, and checks being done via Hendon Mob stats for example.  This would create trust with fellow members.
A staking forum is a brilliant idea if done in the right spirit. It would create a lot of fun and banter at the rails. The last thing you would want is random players with no known contacts asking to be bought into events.
The Apat brand to me stands for good organisation and fairness. There are plenty of examples of this in the forum discussions.
I prefer the 1% to Apat pay option to the totally free option because peace of mind is important.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mal666 on June 10, 2012, 23:24:43 PM
Wow, looks like a goer, wp Des.

Early days I know but who would head the syndicate ? If my money was in there I"d like some say in who got backed with it obv.





Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mal666 on June 10, 2012, 23:25:54 PM
I"m gonna be the skol super of APAT, policing requests, can I mod the board  :D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: ForthThistle on June 11, 2012, 19:31:41 PM

I"m gonna be the skol super of APAT, policing requests, can I mod the board  :D


This made me LOL.

Where i your OPR or Hendon Mob???
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Swinebag on June 11, 2012, 21:32:50 PM

I"m gonna be the skol super of APAT, policing requests, can I mod the board  :D


It"s Mal "mfckn" Gorse!!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: BOINGBLITZ on June 13, 2012, 01:00:29 AM
No problem with this. Have backed APATers who I rate (successfully) in the past and also been staked (successfully) myself on several occasions.
 If you want to be staked and people think you are worthy, they will back you.
 If you want to stake people you think are worthy, then do it....it ain"t rocket-science.

....And can I have 10% of George Bedi in last weekends "Big $109" please?  ;D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: WYoung83 on June 13, 2012, 15:51:38 PM
Pity this wasnt starting before this weekend, half price sunday majors on stars. Anyway is it going to be both live and online that staking deals will be done?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Paulie_D on June 13, 2012, 15:58:15 PM

Pity this wasnt starting before this weekend, half price sunday majors on stars. Anyway is it going to be both live and online that staking deals will be done?


I believe that will be the case, subject to individual requests.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: Des on June 13, 2012, 16:50:54 PM

Pity this wasnt starting before this weekend, half price sunday majors on stars. Anyway is it going to be both live and online that staking deals will be done?


I suspect that this might well be up before the weekend Will.  Both live and online.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: mporter123 on June 13, 2012, 17:29:52 PM
(http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab297/mporter123/excited.jpg)

Exciting!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Board
Post by: s4ooter on June 13, 2012, 19:10:16 PM
(http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae36/s4ooter/YES.gif)

Staking Board makes me happy!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 13, 2012, 21:20:43 PM
APAT are pleased to announce the opening of the Staker Exchange (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?board=131.0).  We"ll trial the concept for the next month to assess whether it makes sense to retain on an ongoing basis.

We hope members use, but don"t abuse it.  :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 13, 2012, 21:22:53 PM
If you have any questions or suggestions with regards the operation of the Staker Exchange, please post them here.

With regards to member verification, this will not be required of members who are familiar to APAT, so I hope the process for getting Staking Requests up will prove quick and effective.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 13, 2012, 21:30:46 PM
Will there be a list of licenced players?

The reason I ask is say for example, some bloke asks for staking, lets call him Ger*. I am thinking of investing but I notice on the list of licenced players a new arrival, lets call him George*. Maybe I would reconsider my potential stake in Ger in anticipation of a request from George.

*All names appearing in this post are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: duke3016 on June 13, 2012, 21:34:13 PM

Maybe I would reconsider my potential stake in Ger in anticipation of a request from George.


To be fair - so would I  8)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 13, 2012, 21:42:34 PM

Will there be a list of licenced players?

The reason I ask is say for example, some bloke asks for staking, lets call him Ger*. I am thinking of investing but I notice on the list of licenced players a new arrival, lets call him George*. Maybe I would reconsider my potential stake in Ger in anticipation of a request from George.

*All names appearing in this post are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.


There will be a directory and we"ve just had the first name added a minute ago.  However, I think I would analyse each opportunity based on the strength or otherwise of each that specific staker request.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: thinsy147 on June 13, 2012, 22:03:09 PM

Will there be a list of licenced players?

The reason I ask is say for example, some bloke asks for staking, lets call him Ger*. I am thinking of investing but I notice on the list of licenced players a new arrival, lets call him George*. Maybe I would reconsider my potential stake in Ger in anticipation of a request from George.

*All names appearing in this post are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.


Is this restricted to poker?

If this fictitious Ger* character was entering a drinking competition I might consider investing...

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: RioRodent on June 13, 2012, 22:10:57 PM
From "Staker Licensed Player - Application" thread...

"5 ) Applying to become a Licensed Player demonstrates your acceptance to pay APAT a £10 license fee (whether your application proves successful or not) plus an additional 1% commission on the value of any winnings enjoyed by your Stakers."

I have to say that I think the idea keeping someone"s £10 after refusing them a "license" is a bit rich... but then I disagree with charging in the first place.

Edit: And, and if I wanted to be pedantic I would point out that if the £10 is payable whether you subsequently are granted a license or not.. then it is really an "application fee" not a "license fee".  ::)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 13, 2012, 22:15:08 PM

From "Staker Licensed Player - Application" thread...

"5 ) Applying to become a Licensed Player demonstrates your acceptance to pay APAT a £10 license fee (whether your application proves successful or not) plus an additional 1% commission on the value of any winnings enjoyed by your Stakers."

I have to say that I think the idea keeping someone"s £10 after refusing them a "license" is a bit rich... but then I disagree with charging in the first place.


It"s less about the £10 and more about trying to ensure we don"t get a lot of requests from players who have just come to APAT for staking, without having any results behind them.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: RioRodent on June 13, 2012, 22:16:59 PM


From "Staker Licensed Player - Application" thread...

"5 ) Applying to become a Licensed Player demonstrates your acceptance to pay APAT a £10 license fee (whether your application proves successful or not) plus an additional 1% commission on the value of any winnings enjoyed by your Stakers."

I have to say that I think the idea keeping someone"s £10 after refusing them a "license" is a bit rich... but then I disagree with charging in the first place.


It"s less about the £10 and more about trying to ensure we don"t get a lot of requests from players who have just come to APAT for staking, without having any results behind them.


Then return the £10 to unsuccessful applicants.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Gup9y on June 13, 2012, 22:20:08 PM
I agree with Des. £10 fee is unfair but then I would not want APAT to become a place for players to be headhunted. I would not have a problem with a small percentage going to my National Team but not sure about it going to APAT.

Thoughts Des
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 13, 2012, 22:25:30 PM



From "Staker Licensed Player - Application" thread...

"5 ) Applying to become a Licensed Player demonstrates your acceptance to pay APAT a £10 license fee (whether your application proves successful or not) plus an additional 1% commission on the value of any winnings enjoyed by your Stakers."

I have to say that I think the idea keeping someone"s £10 after refusing them a "license" is a bit rich... but then I disagree with charging in the first place.


It"s less about the £10 and more about trying to ensure we don"t get a lot of requests from players who have just come to APAT for staking, without having any results behind them.


Then return the £10 to unsuccessful applicants.


That defeats the purpose Alan.  Enormously.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: deanp27 on June 14, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
Quick question regarding the 1% payable on the value of winnings enjoyed by your stakers.

Is this 1% on any profit Received by stakers (ie after they get their stake back) or on total returns? (I presume any returned stakes such as unused rebuys or tourney"s not played will not count towards the 1% payment)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 10:32:05 AM

Quick question regarding the 1% payable on the value of winnings enjoyed by your stakers.

Is this 1% on any profit Received by stakers (ie after they get their stake back) or on total returns? (I presume any returned stakes such as unused rebuys or tourney"s not played will not count towards the 1% payment)


Hi Dean - it would be based on winnings, so for example if a staked player won an APAT event for £3k - with 50% staking, he would return £1500 to his stakers and £15 to APAT.  That said, APAT effectively gets 1% of whatever proposal is agreed with your stakers, so if that includes the return of non used funding, then that would be applicable to APAT's share also.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mylesfdo on June 14, 2012, 12:47:32 PM
Still a bit confused how this is gonna work ???!!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 13:04:14 PM

Still a bit confused how this is gonna work ???!!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?


I would be tempted to keep it simple to start off with Myles.  Ultimately each proposal will be valued on its own merits but give the relative inexperience of members to this type of initiative, then the simpler the better.  As successes are recorded, I would imagine more complex proposals will get a greater degree of response.  As for APAT's share, you would pay 1% of total staker winnings to "staker@apat.com" via PayPal.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mporter123 on June 14, 2012, 13:09:18 PM
I have a question on etiquette of staking requests for rebuy tournaments.

Lets assume we have these as part of a schedule:-

06:00 ET -- Event 83: $4.40 NL Hold'em (1R1A)      
11:00 ET -- Event 85: $2.22+R NL Hold'em (3x-Turbo , Saturday Splash Special Edition)
15:30 ET -- Event 88: $4.40+R NL Hold'em (6-Max, Action Hour)                  


What is the normal amount we would ask for as part of a stake? How many "shots" is standard?

I assume we receive $$$$"s based on a certain amount of rebuy"s, if those are not all taken then that is recorded and dollars returned and we agree not to take any more than initially discussed?                           
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: TightEnd on June 14, 2012, 13:13:39 PM

I have a question on etiquette of staking requests for rebuy tournaments.

Lets assume we have these as part of a schedule:-

06:00 ET -- Event 83: $4.40 NL Hold'em (1R1A)      
11:00 ET -- Event 85: $2.22+R NL Hold'em (3x-Turbo , Saturday Splash Special Edition)
15:30 ET -- Event 88: $4.40+R NL Hold'em (6-Max, Action Hour)                  


What is the normal amount we would ask for as part of a stake? How many "shots" is standard?

I assume we receive $$$$"s based on a certain amount of rebuy"s, if those are not all taken then that is recorded and dollars returned and we agree not to take any more than initially discussed?                           



State in your staking proposal what your budget is for rebuys. ("I will have a maximum of x rebuys and if not needed they will be returned by x date)

If not used, they are returned

As to number, depends on the tournament. Any more than 2-3 and you are into the relams of people wondering how seriously you are taking the earlier bullets  :D

Under no circumstances go over budget unless with prior approval of all stakers, because that way disputes lie.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mylesfdo on June 14, 2012, 13:15:57 PM


Still a bit confused how this is gonna work ???!!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?


I would be tempted to keep it simple to start off with Myles.  Ultimately each proposal will be valued on its own merits but give the relative inexperience of members to this type of initiative, then the simpler the better.  As successes are recorded, I would imagine more complex proposals will get a greater degree of response.  As for APAT's share, you would pay 1% of total staker winnings to "staker@apat.com" via PayPal.


Thanks for reply but didnt really answer questions!!.......mainly can I offer up a stake as a backer rather than always requesting to be backed?......sometimes its nice to have horses earning you $$ when u havent got time to play!!....also on this subject would there be a requirement for horse to keep an updated rail?

In regards to BAP tbh imho I think this is the simplier way of running it!!......shares are sold at x amount......they have a closing value of x amount....rather than all this 1.1 mark up malarky its far simpler!!....just my opinion obv!!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 13:48:53 PM



Still a bit confused how this is gonna work ???!!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?


I would be tempted to keep it simple to start off with Myles.  Ultimately each proposal will be valued on its own merits but give the relative inexperience of members to this type of initiative, then the simpler the better.  As successes are recorded, I would imagine more complex proposals will get a greater degree of response.  As for APAT's share, you would pay 1% of total staker winnings to "staker@apat.com" via PayPal.


Thanks for reply but didnt really answer questions!!.......mainly can I offer up a stake as a backer rather than always requesting to be backed?......sometimes its nice to have horses earning you $$ when u havent got time to play!!....also on this subject would there be a requirement for horse to keep an updated rail?

In regards to BAP tbh imho I think this is the simplier way of running it!!......shares are sold at x amount......they have a closing value of x amount....rather than all this 1.1 mark up malarky its far simpler!!....just my opinion obv!!


Sorry I misunderstood your original post. 

Yes, as a Staker you can initiate a post seeking players to invest in.  The only stipulations being that responding players have to be licensed on the board, they should get their details to you via the Staker Request form, and you need to fund them in advance of the events taking place. 

When returning their winnings to you, the players would at the same time pay 1% of their winnings to APAT.  As stated above, you are not proposing to pay a premium and that"s fine also.  It may be less attractive to longer term winning players, but ultimately it"s a free market and premiums may be less important in online staking, where travel and accommodation costs do not need to be factored in.

I would encourage all Stakers to request rail updates from their players.  Ultimately that will appeal more to some players than others, but it would be up to you whether you made it a condition of the deal.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mylesfdo on June 14, 2012, 14:03:49 PM




Still a bit confused how this is gonna work ???!!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?


I would be tempted to keep it simple to start off with Myles.  Ultimately each proposal will be valued on its own merits but give the relative inexperience of members to this type of initiative, then the simpler the better.  As successes are recorded, I would imagine more complex proposals will get a greater degree of response.  As for APAT's share, you would pay 1% of total staker winnings to "staker@apat.com" via PayPal.


Thanks for reply but didnt really answer questions!!.......mainly can I offer up a stake as a backer rather than always requesting to be backed?......sometimes its nice to have horses earning you $$ when u havent got time to play!!....also on this subject would there be a requirement for horse to keep an updated rail?

In regards to BAP tbh imho I think this is the simplier way of running it!!......shares are sold at x amount......they have a closing value of x amount....rather than all this 1.1 mark up malarky its far simpler!!....just my opinion obv!!


Sorry I misunderstood your original post. 

Yes, as a Staker you can initiate a post seeking players to invest in.  The only stipulations being that responding players have to be licensed on the board, they should get their details to you via the Staker Request form, and you need to fund them in advance of the events taking place. 

When returning their winnings to you, the players would at the same time pay 1% of their winnings to APAT.  As stated above, you are not proposing to pay a premium and that"s fine also.  It may be less attractive to longer term winning players, but ultimately it"s a free market and premiums may be less important in online staking, where travel and accommodation costs do not need to be factored in.

I would encourage all Stakers to request rail updates from their players.  Ultimately that will appeal more to some players than others, but it would be up to you whether you made it a condition of the deal.


Ok great thks.....so as staker you dont lose any of your winnings if I read correctly?

Where do u post stakes available then?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 14:22:52 PM





Still a bit confused how this is gonna work ???!!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?


I would be tempted to keep it simple to start off with Myles.  Ultimately each proposal will be valued on its own merits but give the relative inexperience of members to this type of initiative, then the simpler the better.  As successes are recorded, I would imagine more complex proposals will get a greater degree of response.  As for APAT's share, you would pay 1% of total staker winnings to "staker@apat.com" via PayPal.


Thanks for reply but didnt really answer questions!!.......mainly can I offer up a stake as a backer rather than always requesting to be backed?......sometimes its nice to have horses earning you $$ when u havent got time to play!!....also on this subject would there be a requirement for horse to keep an updated rail?

In regards to BAP tbh imho I think this is the simplier way of running it!!......shares are sold at x amount......they have a closing value of x amount....rather than all this 1.1 mark up malarky its far simpler!!....just my opinion obv!!


Sorry I misunderstood your original post. 

Yes, as a Staker you can initiate a post seeking players to invest in.  The only stipulations being that responding players have to be licensed on the board, they should get their details to you via the Staker Request form, and you need to fund them in advance of the events taking place. 

When returning their winnings to you, the players would at the same time pay 1% of their winnings to APAT.  As stated above, you are not proposing to pay a premium and that"s fine also.  It may be less attractive to longer term winning players, but ultimately it"s a free market and premiums may be less important in online staking, where travel and accommodation costs do not need to be factored in.

I would encourage all Stakers to request rail updates from their players.  Ultimately that will appeal more to some players than others, but it would be up to you whether you made it a condition of the deal.


Ok great thks.....so as staker you dont lose any of your winnings if I read correctly?

Where do u post stakes available then?


Correct, this service is entirely free to Stakers.

Just post a new topic in this board.  Head it "online players required" or similar.  Include your topline proposal and requirements (licensed players, payment terms, reporting etc).  Use PM"s to sort out account details etc.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Matt D on June 14, 2012, 14:43:10 PM
Interesting idea. I like it, and think the regulation of the system is a step in the right direction for this kind of thing.

I"ve a couple of quick questions:

If someone requests staking on APAT, does the request have to remain exclusively here? Or can it also be offered out on other staking sites, via friends and on facebook etc?

If the latter, how does the 1% fee work? Say the horse offers up 50% for sale on APAT, but only manages to sell 25% and sells the other 25% "off forum".

edit: typo (excusively > exclusively).
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 14:46:20 PM

Interesting idea. I like it, and think the regulation of the system is a step in the right direction for this kind of thing.

I"ve a couple of quick questions:

If someone requests staking on APAT, does the request have to remain excusively here? Or can it also be offered out on other staking sites, via friends and on facebook etc?

If the latter, how does the 1% fee work? Say the horse offers up 50% for sale on APAT, but only manages to sell 25% and sells the other 25% "off forum".


A good question.  APAT should only retain a commission on winnings earned by stakers on the APAT Staker Exchange.  That said, part of the attraction of trying to build the exchange is to lessen the requirement for players to seek funding in several different places.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 14, 2012, 14:52:06 PM

Interesting idea. I like it, and think the regulation of the system is a step in the right direction for this kind of thing.

I"ve a couple of quick questions:

If someone requests staking on APAT, does the request have to remain excusively here? Or can it also be offered out on other staking sites, via friends and on facebook etc?

If the latter, how does the 1% fee work? Say the horse offers up 50% for sale on APAT, but only manages to sell 25% and sells the other 25% "off forum".


I was thinking about that question a few hours ago, then got tied up with something else.  Nice post Matt  ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mylesfdo on June 14, 2012, 15:19:28 PM






Still a bit confused how this is gonna work ???!!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?


I would be tempted to keep it simple to start off with Myles.  Ultimately each proposal will be valued on its own merits but give the relative inexperience of members to this type of initiative, then the simpler the better.  As successes are recorded, I would imagine more complex proposals will get a greater degree of response.  As for APAT's share, you would pay 1% of total staker winnings to "staker@apat.com" via PayPal.


Thanks for reply but didnt really answer questions!!.......mainly can I offer up a stake as a backer rather than always requesting to be backed?......sometimes its nice to have horses earning you $$ when u havent got time to play!!....also on this subject would there be a requirement for horse to keep an updated rail?

In regards to BAP tbh imho I think this is the simplier way of running it!!......shares are sold at x amount......they have a closing value of x amount....rather than all this 1.1 mark up malarky its far simpler!!....just my opinion obv!!


Sorry I misunderstood your original post. 

Yes, as a Staker you can initiate a post seeking players to invest in.  The only stipulations being that responding players have to be licensed on the board, they should get their details to you via the Staker Request form, and you need to fund them in advance of the events taking place. 

When returning their winnings to you, the players would at the same time pay 1% of their winnings to APAT.  As stated above, you are not proposing to pay a premium and that"s fine also.  It may be less attractive to longer term winning players, but ultimately it"s a free market and premiums may be less important in online staking, where travel and accommodation costs do not need to be factored in.

I would encourage all Stakers to request rail updates from their players.  Ultimately that will appeal more to some players than others, but it would be up to you whether you made it a condition of the deal.


Ok great thks.....so as staker you dont lose any of your winnings if I read correctly?

Where do u post stakes available then?


Correct, this service is entirely free to Stakers.

Just post a new topic in this board.  Head it "online players required" or similar.  Include your topline proposal and requirements (licensed players, payment terms, reporting etc).  Use PM"s to sort out account details etc.


Done.....pls just have a read through and let me know if anything not in order....apologies in advance :-[
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AMRN on June 14, 2012, 16:40:56 PM
If OPR is to be used as part of the reference, those licensed to be staked will need to Opt-In on Stars to have their OPR stats freely viewable.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: fandango on June 14, 2012, 17:19:56 PM

If OPR is to be used as part of the reference, those licensed to be staked will need to Opt-In on Stars to have their OPR stats freely viewable.


^^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^^ agree 100%
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: s4ooter on June 14, 2012, 17:51:27 PM
So, ive only been following this thread half heartedly as it was going.

Im confused at what the £10 is for?

I know its to "process your application", but what is it to be used for (please say Team Winners Medals from last year?!!?!? ;) )

I just find it unusual to see why the charge is there, if you want to deter idiots flooding the forums, then you could still have the application AND the 1% fee, and just dont give status to those you dont want to hold it.

CMU, PTP etc didnt require a Join Up Fee?

Ive always held APAT in good regards due to the value they offer to their members, dont understand why all of a sudden you want to charge people to post a stake request?

If i have missed all these answers prior, apologies.

Dann
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: deanp27 on June 14, 2012, 18:25:56 PM
So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 14, 2012, 19:21:09 PM

So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with 60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).



Agree.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: KarmaDope on June 14, 2012, 19:23:56 PM

CMU, PTP etc didnt require a Join Up Fee?


PTP (don"t/never used CMU) charge a lot more and IIRC, as it"s been a few years, charge both staker and stakee. They also charge per BAP.

The £10 seems to be mainly as a deterrent to stop grimmers. And as an added bonus, it helps APAT, when the sponsorship market right now is a bit poo, to say the least.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 19:40:38 PM

So, ive only been following this thread half heartedly as it was going.

Im confused at what the £10 is for?

I know its to "process your application", but what is it to be used for (please say Team Winners Medals from last year?!!?!? ;) )

I just find it unusual to see why the charge is there, if you want to deter idiots flooding the forums, then you could still have the application AND the 1% fee, and just dont give status to those you dont want to hold it.

CMU, PTP etc didnt require a Join Up Fee?

Ive always held APAT in good regards due to the value they offer to their members, dont understand why all of a sudden you want to charge people to post a stake request?

If i have missed all these answers prior, apologies.

Dann


The £10 is there for a few reasons. 

One is to take a few of the cowboys out of the mix.  We don"t have the time to be going through lots of verifications, which we would end up doing if this was a free service.  Cowboys aren"t going to be worrying about the 1% fee, they"ll just do a runner if they win.

Secondly, the fee adds another level of verification, in that we get provided with the player"s name and address through PayPal, which is helpful if we don"t know who it is.  It"s something else to cross check elsewhere and if some of an applicant"s story doesn"t add up, we won"t license the player.

Thirdly, we"re far from perfect, but in the six years that APAT has been around we"ve tried to do things right.  This feels like us doing the right thing.  The other sites may offer a free service, and we have no interest whatsoever in competing with them.  This is not about volume, it"s about being able to keep some level of control over what is posted on this forum, particularly where money might be concerned.

Last but not least, we"re having to go through a bit of a mindset change at APAT.  We"ve offered high quality registration free poker for five years before this season, but the sponsorship market has changed considerably and for that reason we need to adopt a wider commercial outlook.  APAT cannot be in a position whereby it relies on one poker site for its operating budget.  Our strategy needs to evolve to ensure APAT generates revenue so that we can resource our development in a much greater way, grow and create an even bigger and better tour.  So we"ve added a fee with sensible justification for players looking to find funding to step their game up, but we"ve kept the service free for players willing to invest in some of the talented players that we have at APAT. 

I think the Exchange is a good win win scenario. It"s on strategy for APAT and it introduces a nice new quality service for our members.  Hopefully players will both stake and play, but ultimately it"s your decision.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 19:45:25 PM

So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.



Completely agree and we"ll need to do a bit of educating in this particular area.  That said, I think it will help to have a couple of offers up so that players can get a sense of how it should all work.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 14, 2012, 20:01:17 PM
Mr Evilpies mark-up calculator.

Staking explained, by Evilpie

I"ll have a crack at explaining it for you Dreenie:

One way of staking is to buy a set amount yourself and sell the rest to backers. You pay for a certain amount of the entry yourself and then sell the rest at a markup of your choosing. Personally I don"t mark up but that is entirely up to you to decide.

Say you play a £500 comp and sell half of your action:

You pay £250 yourself and get the rest from stakers. If you sell at even money 1:1 you just get the other £250 off them.

If you sell at 1.1:1 you charge them £1.10 for every £1 they buy. The £250 you sell will therefore cost stakers £275 total. This obviously means that there"s only £225 left to pay so you save yourself £25. The more you mark up the less you pay yourself.



When you have 100% staking for a set amount of equity you can work out the effective mark up as follows:

Say the comp is £1000

You sell 100% for 70% equity. This means that any winnings go 70% to the staker and 30% to you.

This means that effectively they are only buying 70% of you which is £700 worth but it"s costing them £1000

If you divide 1000 by 700 this will show you the mark up, in this case 1.43

To work out the mark up of set equity you just have to invert the actual percentage expressed as a decimal if that makes sense?

50% = 0.5 = 2:1
60% = 0.6 = 1.67:1
70% = 0.7 = 1.43:1
80% = 0.8 = 1.25:1
90% = 0.9 = 1.11:1

Other things alter this such as offering stake back first before splitting profits and obviously being on a long term make up deal makes a huge difference.

One off stakes can be worked out as above though and are generally very bad for the staker and require a lot of luck to work out well.



Generally speaking if you put some of the money up yourself and don"t charge a markup you have a good chance of selling. You are taking a risk yourself so backers know you"ll be trying your best.

If you ask for 100% of the money you are taking on no risk at all yourself so it becomes harder to sell unless you are extremely good or are well liked and can sell to friends.

If you ask for 100% staking for 50% equity you"re very unlikely to sell except to friends. The odd $10 comp would be fair enough but a biggy would be very poor value for the staker. A £1000 comp for example the staker is effectively paying £1000 to put you in to a comp where the prizes they stand to win are equivalent to a £500 comp. Obviously when staking a friend value isn"t priority number one so it"s still possible.

Hope that helps a bit.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: nosey-p on June 14, 2012, 20:02:48 PM

So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.



Dean

This is the first time for me and APAT to ask for staking, so was not sure what to ask for. This was a kind of lets post and see what response I get. I and others will learn what is expected in terms of %/decimals and will ask for staking accordingly. You are right about the mark up but can I point out this is at half the price. You could say that I have been lucky, to get staked at that mark up, with me being first it has got a novelty factor to it. As the bigger players come along I"m sure a request like this will not get taken up. 

Wayne
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AJDUK on June 14, 2012, 20:12:20 PM
OK I"m thinking it"s just me that doesn"t know this but what does BAP stand for?

Don"t get me wrong, anyone with decent BAP"s is always gonna raise interest, but what does it stand for?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 14, 2012, 20:14:11 PM

OK I"m thinking it"s just me that doesn"t know this but what does BAP stand for?



Yes No....I"ve been hoping someone would ask so I wouldn"t look ignorant...Oh...wait!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 14, 2012, 20:17:47 PM
Buy a piece.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 14, 2012, 20:20:09 PM
BAP stands for BlackCountry Added Percentile.  It"s the premium that can be added to any stake request based on the fact that the stakee is or has been a member of the Black Country Poker Club. Length of service obviously increases this premium percentile, as does if you have an APAT Stud bronze medal.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 14, 2012, 20:33:10 PM


So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.



Dean

This is the first time for me and APAT to ask for staking, so was not sure what to ask for. This was a kind of lets post and see what response I get. I and others will learn what is expected in terms of %/decimals and will ask for staking accordingly. You are right about the mark up but can I point out this is at half the price. You could say that I have been lucky, to get staked at that mark up, with me being first it has got a novelty factor to it. As the bigger players come along I"m sure a request like this will not get taken up. 

Wayne


You sold out so fair enough.

But realistically I think you should have sold at spot.  299 mtts over 6 years is tiny Wayne, really should unlock that opr too.
As Des said though plenty of people on here will know your game so that + novelty probably swung it, i doubt a newer less known member would have sold any tbh.

The half price thing doesn"t really work either, it just means the tourn will have twice as many runners. Though admittedly the bigger stuff on Stars should be quite a bit softer during the wsop.


Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 14, 2012, 20:38:48 PM
If you"ve played a ton on other networks you should pot all your opr"s too.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: deanp27 on June 14, 2012, 21:22:05 PM


So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.



Dean

This is the first time for me and APAT to ask for staking, so was not sure what to ask for. This was a kind of lets post and see what response I get. I and others will learn what is expected in terms of %/decimals and will ask for staking accordingly. You are right about the mark up but can I point out this is at half the price. You could say that I have been lucky, to get staked at that mark up, with me being first it has got a novelty factor to it. As the bigger players come along I"m sure a request like this will not get taken up. 

Wayne


Wayne, I don"t normally post on these kind of things because it is easy for people to take it personally and I certainly don"t want that. The reason I made my post in the discussion thread is because this staking board is in its infancy and I was just trying to help everyone understand how staking works from my past experiences and experience of others, I wasn"t trying to single you out. I was also referring the the other staking offer that was posted that used the same method and I think it gets unnecessarily complicated.

Also I don"t get your point about the half price - just because Stars have halved the buyin doesn"t mean you are selling at a discount.

I"d be happy to stake you Wayne in most things but personally i wouldn"t stake anybody that sold at an unrealistic premium and also that didn"t have a % of their own dime at stake.

I kind of feel bad if you think I was aiming any criticism your way, it wasn"t intended like that.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: nosey-p on June 14, 2012, 22:02:32 PM
I did not take it personally, I was agreeing with you

The half price thing, what I was trying to get across is that any other Sunday the % would have twice the price for the same payout. 

I have a better, more structured proposal in the coming months which will be more up your street
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 14, 2012, 22:08:05 PM

I did not take it personally, I was agreeing with you

The half price thing, what I was trying to get across is that any other Sunday the % would have twice the price for the same payout. 

I have a better, more structured proposal in the coming months which will be more up your street



Gl with it Wayne, your op was actually very similar to on i put on here ~4 years ago. Only I was charging 2.0   :D

We live n learn.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Robbiebox on June 15, 2012, 07:16:17 AM
Just a question about the £10 and 1% ? Is this going to a certain fund to support something (eg freeroll or sponsorshipfor stakers/stakees) or just into the general APAT coffers ?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 08:13:59 AM

Just a question about the £10 and 1% ? Is this going to a certain fund to support something (eg freeroll or sponsorshipfor stakers/stakees) or just into the general APAT coffers ?


This sort of comment makes me a little concerned after all I"ve said previously.

We are not going to spend the £50 (less merchandising fees) on hookers and Cuban cigars.

The money will go into the APAT bank account and be used for whatever expenses require paying. Ultimately that should lead to additional value for players, like the GPS freeroll last weekend, and others that are planned.

However APAT need to generate revenue to succeed.  
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 15, 2012, 09:13:44 AM


We are not going to spend less than £50 on hookers and Cuban cigars.



FYP :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Sugarnes on June 15, 2012, 10:38:26 AM
At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 10:41:26 AM

At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!




...there might be something in that... :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 15, 2012, 10:59:45 AM


At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!




...there might be something in that... :)


I"ll start on the artwork and banners now  ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 11:10:34 AM



At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!




...there might be something in that... :)


I"ll start on the artwork and banners now  ;)


We"ll need product testers....
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: pables on June 15, 2012, 11:11:55 AM
Do you need to look any further than the Duke?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 11:16:21 AM

Do you need to look any further than the Duke?


I"m not sure we need to look any further than Leigh and myself on this occasion :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: RioRodent on June 15, 2012, 11:22:49 AM


Do you need to look any further than the Duke?


I"m not sure we need to look any further than Leigh and myself on this occasion :)


Neither of you smoke!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 15, 2012, 11:29:45 AM



Do you need to look any further than the Duke?


I"m not sure we need to look any further than Leigh and myself on this occasion :)


Neither of you smoke!


The man does have a point
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 11:31:34 AM




Do you need to look any further than the Duke?


I"m not sure we need to look any further than Leigh and myself on this occasion :)


Neither of you smoke!



The man does have a point


Detail  ;D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: TightEnd on June 15, 2012, 11:56:08 AM
Hello.

:-X
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 12:10:51 PM

Hello.

:-X


Haha, Tighty for the win.  Not only would he test the product, but we"d get a great blow by blow  ::) account afterwards!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 15, 2012, 12:12:48 PM


Hello.

:-X


Haha, Tighty for the win.  Not only would he test the product, but we"d get a great blow by blow  ::) account afterwards!


Double puntastic.  Nice work.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: fandango on June 15, 2012, 12:28:13 PM
Chuckle love where this thread is going!!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Sugar_Free on June 15, 2012, 13:36:18 PM


At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!




...there might be something in that... :)


Does this have its own staking board?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 13:45:53 PM



At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!




...there might be something in that... :)


Does this have its own staking board?


If it did the license fee would be a lot more than £10!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Sugar_Free on June 15, 2012, 13:47:50 PM




At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!




...there might be something in that... :)


Does this have its own staking board?


If it did the license fee would be a lot more than £10!


Who cares? Just post up the form!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 15, 2012, 13:49:13 PM




At the risk of being facetious....I"d be at every event if APAT provided hookers and cuban cigars!!




...there might be something in that... :)


Does this have its own staking board?


If it did the license fee would be a lot more than £10!


Given that I was registered before this initiative I believe I should have grandfather rights.

Happy to do an update on the Rail on Sunday but would prefer a Friday so need a new name  ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 15, 2012, 14:51:45 PM


Given that I was registered before this initiative I believe I should have grandfather rights.



Lord knows you"re old enough. :)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Sef on June 15, 2012, 15:34:02 PM



Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.



I disagree. Need to try word this right, too many terms. lol. Using this example it"s sold without a premium.. it"s sold as a percentage return so for every 1% you pay for you get 0.6% of winnings. On a premium sold at same rate you would pay for 1.67% and recieve 1%. So I think as long as the stakee has laid out the plan for which way he is selling then it"s up to stakers to decide how acceptable it is. If you don"t like it, don"t buy! ;)

I think thats right anyway!?!??! lol :D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Sef on June 15, 2012, 15:42:19 PM
Just caught up on the hookers n cigars thing..... I"m in ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 15, 2012, 15:48:08 PM

Just caught up on the hookers n cigars thing..... I"m in ;)


too late - it sold out
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Sef on June 15, 2012, 15:50:03 PM
Well if anyone wants to sell me a % of theirs.....  :D :D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 16:29:10 PM

Well if anyone wants to sell me a % of theirs.....  :D :D


...you can have a percentage of my hooker....the cigar however, is cuban ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 15, 2012, 18:44:01 PM




Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.




I disagree. Need to try word this right, too many terms. lol. Using this example it"s sold without a premium.. it"s sold as a percentage return so for every 1% you pay for you get 0.6% of winnings. On a premium sold at same rate you would pay for 1.67% and recieve 1%. So I think as long as the stakee has laid out the plan for which way he is selling then it"s up to stakers to decide how acceptable it is. If you don"t like it, don"t buy! ;)

I think thats right anyway!?!??! lol :D


Of course there"s a premium, it"s just worded a different way.

As this is new here I"d expect quite a few people don"t really know much about staking. APAT is pretty broad in its membership so that obv includes plenty of newbies. It"s only fair to point out what is the norm.

Using Wayne"s op for eg, states 10% = $107.50.   But you"e not getting 10% you"re getting 6%.

6%  x 1.67 = $107.50

He even admitted himself he didn"t really know what was standard and Wayne"s been around for years.

Applying mark-up up front is just a lot more transparent, so again using Wayne"s eg (sorry Wayne this is not a troll you were just first up)

He would say selling 60% of SM @ 1.67.

This would raise the full buy in and he gets his 40%

People can then judge if they think the ev of the player justifies the mark-up.



Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Sef on June 15, 2012, 18:53:15 PM





Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.




I disagree. Need to try word this right, too many terms. lol. Using this example it"s sold without a premium.. it"s sold as a percentage return so for every 1% you pay for you get 0.6% of winnings. On a premium sold at same rate you would pay for 1.67% and recieve 1%. So I think as long as the stakee has laid out the plan for which way he is selling then it"s up to stakers to decide how acceptable it is. If you don"t like it, don"t buy! ;)

I think thats right anyway!?!??! lol :D


Of course there"s a premium, it"s just worded a different way.

As this is new here I"d expect quite a few people don"t really know much about staking. APAT is pretty broad in its membership so that obv includes plenty of newbies. It"s only fair to point out what is the norm.

Using Wayne"s op for eg, states 10% = $107.50.   But you"e not getting 10% you"re getting 6%.

6%  x 1.67 = $107.50

He even admitted himself he didn"t really know what was standard and Wayne"s been around for years.

Applying mark-up up front is just a lot more transparent, so again using Wayne"s eg (sorry Wayne this is not a troll you were just first up)

He would say selling 60% of SM @ 1.67.

This would raise the full buy in and he gets his 40%

People can then judge if they think the ev of the player justifies the mark-up.






Yeah.. as I said, too many terms. The up front "mark up" is what I was referring to as opposed to "premium".  I"m sure you understood. Thanks for the much clearer explanation. I"m never good at explaining things, I confuse myself half the time!  :D :D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 15, 2012, 19:15:29 PM





Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.




I disagree. Need to try word this right, too many terms. lol. Using this example it"s sold without a premium.. it"s sold as a percentage return so for every 1% you pay for you get 0.6% of winnings. On a premium sold at same rate you would pay for 1.67% and recieve 1%. So I think as long as the stakee has laid out the plan for which way he is selling then it"s up to stakers to decide how acceptable it is. If you don"t like it, don"t buy! ;)

I think thats right anyway!?!??! lol :D


Of course there"s a premium, it"s just worded a different way.

As this is new here I"d expect quite a few people don"t really know much about staking. APAT is pretty broad in its membership so that obv includes plenty of newbies. It"s only fair to point out what is the norm.

Using Wayne"s op for eg, states 10% = $107.50.   But you"e not getting 10% you"re getting 6%.

6%  x 1.67 = $107.50

He even admitted himself he didn"t really know what was standard and Wayne"s been around for years.

Applying mark-up up front is just a lot more transparent, so again using Wayne"s eg (sorry Wayne this is not a troll you were just first up)

He would say selling 60% of SM @ 1.67.

This would raise the full buy in and he gets his 40%

People can then judge if they think the ev of the player justifies the mark-up.






Nice contribution there Mal, appreciated.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 15, 2012, 19:33:14 PM
Ha, no probs. Enjoy the staking side of poker.

Can I just add the mark-up directly correlates to roi.

If you buy at 1.2:1 your horse needs a 20% roi for you to break even.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 15, 2012, 19:38:22 PM

Ha, no probs. Enjoy the staking side of poker.

Can I just add the mark-up directly correlates to roi.

If you buy at 1.2:1 your horse needs a 20% roi for you to break even.


Damn, I was thinking of selling at 1.0 but now need to make it 0.8  :D
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Swinebag on June 17, 2012, 21:20:16 PM





Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.




I disagree. Need to try word this right, too many terms. lol. Using this example it"s sold without a premium.. it"s sold as a percentage return so for every 1% you pay for you get 0.6% of winnings. On a premium sold at same rate you would pay for 1.67% and recieve 1%. So I think as long as the stakee has laid out the plan for which way he is selling then it"s up to stakers to decide how acceptable it is. If you don"t like it, don"t buy! ;)

I think thats right anyway!?!??! lol :D


Of course there"s a premium, it"s just worded a different way.

As this is new here I"d expect quite a few people don"t really know much about staking. APAT is pretty broad in its membership so that obv includes plenty of newbies. It"s only fair to point out what is the norm.

Using Wayne"s op for eg, states 10% = $107.50.   But you"e not getting 10% you"re getting 6%.

6%  x 1.67 = $107.50

He even admitted himself he didn"t really know what was standard and Wayne"s been around for years.

Applying mark-up up front is just a lot more transparent, so again using Wayne"s eg (sorry Wayne this is not a troll you were just first up)

He would say selling 60% of SM @ 1.67.

This would raise the full buy in and he gets his 40%

People can then judge if they think the ev of the player justifies the mark-up.






slightly disagree with this Mal (but only slightly)

I agree that putting a markup in staking threads should be the norm, but the suggestion you have given wayne implies that he is playing 40% on his own dime and does not explicitly say that he is not putting a bean forward.

I think it should still say: (something like)

"selling 100% with backers cut of 60% - this is 1:1.67"

Some people do prefer to back people who are putting some of their own money in over players who are fully backed.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 17, 2012, 22:01:22 PM
Yeah the 40% is raised from the backers in that example.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Swinebag on June 18, 2012, 23:41:19 PM
stakeback/makeup in staking requests

This has been mentioned in a few staking requests and I fancy posting something on this.

Firstly, for the grandmothers, a lesson on how to suck eggs

A stake request that offers stakeback is one where the staker gets their money back for the stake before profits are shared out.

(names are made up to protect the innocent)

e.g.1 Ger wants staking into the WSOP main event ($10K buyin) with a 30/70 cut in favour of the backer (he is a fish!!) with no stakeback. Scouse decides he"s having that and ships Ger the $10K. Ger runs like a god for 3 days and makes the money before getting "coolered" with A5 on 58T board against villains 88. He min cashes for $20K. He ships 70% of this to Scouse who is ecstatic at his $14K return. He made $4K, while Ger walks off with $6K having invested only his time and skill.

e.g.2 George is staked into the WSOP Main event with a 30/70 cut in favour of the backer. He"s a great player but only ever seems to "min cash" in live donkaments these days, so he offers stakeback. Before (insert blonde pro) can say "rest", the BCPC consortium snap it up costing them $10K. George runs normal, bursts the bubble then goes out the very next hand for a $20K min cash. He pays the BCPC their $10K back plus 70% of the $10K profit ($7K) meaning the BCPC have made 7K from their 10K sweat, whilst george makes 3K for his time and effort and zero cash investment.

The second example is considered a much fairer staking arrangement as the staker is investing with no guarantee of a return but ends up with more than the player when he cashes. If both players do a bink and win $1mill+ then in relative terms, the returns for both examples will roughly be the same.

This is an example of where the horse is not putting any of their own money up. These deals should always be made with stakeback.

A lot of the staking deals so far on this board are examples where the horse has actually put up a fair bit of the money themselves and are selling percentages. In these examples the risk is shared equally between the backer and the horse so there is little need for stakeback to be included here.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 18, 2012, 23:47:40 PM
Yep, what he said.

Fantastic post Rob.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: thinsy147 on June 19, 2012, 02:12:55 AM
Nice post Rob.

I think I"ve seen that George bloke on the telly....

I think I"ve seen that Ger bloke.... Well.... At the bar!

;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 19, 2012, 09:01:13 AM
Excellent post Rob. Now can you do one for make-up please  ;D

Des/Tighty - Can I suggest we place this, or similar example in the sticky threads.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: fandango on June 19, 2012, 11:54:26 AM
Rob your a genius


Just in case no won has told you before ;D excellent post sir!!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Fatcatstu on June 19, 2012, 13:20:08 PM
About time someone posted something about this in English!!! Top post Rob!!!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 19, 2012, 13:22:44 PM

Excellent post Rob. Now can you do one for make-up please  ;D

Des/Tighty - Can I suggest we place this, or similar example in the sticky threads.


Have done Stu and thanks for the contribution Rob.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: KarmaDope on June 19, 2012, 18:17:24 PM
Makeup in staking (aka Cake in some places)

Now, I"m not Rob - but I"ll briefly touch on this and hopefully if I"m wrong, someone more knowledgeable will be able to correct me.

The basic premise of makeup is where the stakee agrees to play a number of tournaments for the staker(s) on the premise that should the stakee win money, the cost of all tournaments will be repaid before the remainder of the profit is chopped. Makeup is the money used to enter stakee into tournaments.

Example:

Staker and stakee agree a deal where staker plays a schedule consisting of 10 tournaments totalling $100 every night for 6 months on a 50/50 deal with makeup. Stakee does not cash until day 6 where he wins $3000. Stakee sends $600 back to staker and they chop the remaining $2400 as profit. Staker still continues to send $100 daily from day 7.

What happens at the end of the deal if the stakee does not turn a profit?

There are a few options and they depend on what both staker and stakee wish to do. Staker can cancel the makeup and eat the cost. If the staker doesn"t want to continue backing the stakee, they can sell the makeup at a reduced price (to be agreed privately) to the stakee"s new backer. The stakee can buy himself out should he wish to go alone. There are other options, but these are the main.

Now I"ve only really seen makeup applied to long term agreements - and I was surprised to see it mentioned here. I don"t believe it"s the norm for makeup to be added to single stakes and I wouldn"t want it myself.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: duke3016 on June 19, 2012, 18:39:38 PM

Ger wants staking into the WSOP main event ($10K buyin)
Scouse decides he"s having that and ships Ger the $10K.


Steve, you have my number - waiting for the call  8)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 19, 2012, 19:03:46 PM

Makeup in staking (aka Cake in some places)


Copied to definitions section.

Excellent summary.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 19, 2012, 19:10:57 PM
Does anyone else think that staking with make up reads just like money lending. Replace make up with the word "debt" and it"s like something from the mob underworld.

You don"t owe me anymore, I sold your debt to one toothed Tony, and he won"t be so understanding  ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Geo on June 19, 2012, 19:14:59 PM

Does anyone else think that staking with make up reads just like money lending. Replace make up with the word "debt" and it"s like something from the mob underworld.

You don"t owe me anymore, I sold your debt to one toothed Tony, and he won"t be so understanding  ;)


Absolutely agree with this.

My personal opinion is that make up/stakeback should be for long term staking deals not one off tourneys

Geo
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 19, 2012, 19:35:27 PM
Agreed. Make up agreements should be kept off this board unless by extreme exception.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Swinebag on June 19, 2012, 19:40:27 PM
Good stuff Adam

I can"t see makeup being applied too much in this forum"s staking section. Most make-up agreements are long term and done in private.

Though horses, that have continually failed, may choose to pay long term backers all their money back, when they finally land a big one.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Swinebag on June 19, 2012, 20:11:19 PM

Does anyone else think that staking with make up reads just like money lending. Replace make up with the word "debt" and it"s like something from the mob underworld.

You don"t owe me anymore, I sold your debt to one toothed Tony, and he won"t be so understanding  ;)


don"t agree with this.

I"ll do an example...(again names made up to protect the innocent)

e.g.1 Leigh is a solid internet player who makes enough to play any £1K live event going. He does run poo in those though and has failed to cash in the last 23. At the 24th attempt he makes a final and finishes 4th for 25K, making him a 1K winner overall. GG sir

e.g.2 Phil TC is a live pro who is nearly broke. He is lucky to get a long term staking arrangement (40/60 in backers favour with make-up) where he can play as many live £1K events that are going. He fails to cash in his first 23, meaning he is now 23K in make-up. However, it is 24th time lucky as he manages to  make a final and finishes 4th for 25K. He pays back the 24K that is owed and splits the 1K profit. He gets £400 for investing his time and skill and the backer who has invested 24K, walks off with £600.


The point of this is, that make-up arrangements mean that the profits are exactly the same as if you play on your own dime, with the exception that as a horse you don"t keep all your profit.

Of course there is a point where the backer may have had enough of a horses poor form. In this case the arrangement finishes with the backer taking a big hit and the horse is "debt" free.

So nothing like a debt IMO. Just a fair arrangement for both backer and horse. Just make sure you have a good relationship with the backer. These sort of staking deals can be the most stressful and are the ones that tend to lead to the big fallouts that we read about all the time.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 19, 2012, 20:21:46 PM
It was this bit that made me comment.  More about the situation when a stakee doesn"t cash enough to clear the stake.  Not sure how that can"t be seen as a debt ?  The stakee owes the staker money, and would be expected to pay it back with any future winnings, dependant on either playing on their own dime, or finding more staking.




What happens at the end of the deal if the stakee does not turn a profit?

There are a few options and they depend on what both staker and stakee wish to do. Staker can cancel the makeup and eat the cost. If the staker doesn"t want to continue backing the stakee, they can sell the makeup at a reduced price (to be agreed privately) to the stakee"s new backer. The stakee can buy himself out should he wish to go alone. There are other options, but these are the main.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AAroddersAA on June 19, 2012, 20:50:14 PM
The above is fine for Make up, surely stake back is pretty standard though in one off agreements? Especially if a premium is being charged.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 19, 2012, 21:08:20 PM

The above is fine for Make up, surely stake back is pretty standard though in one off agreements? Especially if a premium is being charged.


If I were to offer a stake say,

1 stake to big 55 on Stars,  70/30 my favour after stakeback.

Then it"s perfectly fine and acceptable.

If i put up a request,

Selling 30% of big 55 @ 1.2.

It"s up to you to determine if you think this is a value punt at the price given, stakeback is not included.


Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 19, 2012, 21:10:08 PM
You don"t have to markup btw, sell at spot if in doubt.

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: KarmaDope on June 19, 2012, 22:03:55 PM

It was this bit that made me comment.  More about the situation when a stakee doesn"t cash enough to clear the stake.  Not sure how that can"t be seen as a debt ?  The stakee owes the staker money, and would be expected to pay it back with any future winnings, dependant on either playing on their own dime, or finding more staking.




What happens at the end of the deal if the stakee does not turn a profit?

There are a few options and they depend on what both staker and stakee wish to do. Staker can cancel the makeup and eat the cost. If the staker doesn"t want to continue backing the stakee, they can sell the makeup at a reduced price (to be agreed privately) to the stakee"s new backer. The stakee can buy himself out should he wish to go alone. There are other options, but these are the main.




Not really.

If the horse wishes to leave then yes, it can become a debt, as it"s generally accepted that the horse must find a way out - he can either buy himself out in a deal/get a new backer to buy his MU or grind until out of MU and then leave.

Of course he can just up and leave - but horses who need backing in MU agreements generally then need to find new backers and won"t do this cos their reputation is very important in this.

If the backer wants to pull out - then he eats the cost or tries to sell the MU on. It"s an unwritten rule that if the backer can"t afford to stake the horse any more, then it"s gg. The horse can find a new backer at no cost.

Staking with MU is kinda like a business where you employ the horse. If you want to dismiss your employee, you generally have to pay (notice in lieu etc). If the horse wants to leave and owes the company money - you get that back.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 19, 2012, 22:08:51 PM
Judging a price.

Basically if someone is selling at 1.1:1 and they can show you they have 40% roi over a decent sample of games this would be great value.

You"re getting 30% about that price.

It obv needs to be beneficial to both sides, a player needs the backing so takes a hit on his ev to give value to backers.

Punting on mates in 60/40 deals as a one off is actually ok, but it"s more of a favour and almost certainly a long term loser.
But I would do it for skint friends. (deffo not on random requests)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: KarmaDope on June 19, 2012, 22:10:37 PM

Good stuff Adam

I can"t see makeup being applied too much in this forum"s staking section. Most make-up agreements are long term and done in private.

Though horses, that have continually failed, may choose to pay long term backers all their money back, when they finally land a big one.


I can.

For example - Steve Roderick comes on and says he wants backing for Stars $2.50 turbo 180"s for a minimum of 6 months. He asks for a 200 buy in bankroll to grind these which is $500. He offers 60/40 with MU on the condition that we are happy to reload and that once he reaches $1k he can take shots at $8"s. When he gets to a set figure (example again - $1500) he carves up the $1k and begins again with $500.

(this is a really crap example by the way)

Easily a staking thread I could see on here and probably would be a thread a lot of us would invest in because most people would think that it is printing money!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 19, 2012, 22:13:19 PM


Good stuff Adam

I can"t see makeup being applied too much in this forum"s staking section. Most make-up agreements are long term and done in private.

Though horses, that have continually failed, may choose to pay long term backers all their money back, when they finally land a big one.


I can.

For example - Steve Roderick comes on and says he wants backing for Stars $2.50 turbo 180"s for a minimum of 6 months. He asks for a 200 buy in bankroll to grind these which is $500. He offers 60/40 with MU on the condition that we are happy to reload and that once he reaches $1k he can take shots at $8"s. When he gets to a set figure (example again - $1500) he carves up the $1k and begins again with $500.

(this is a really crap example by the way)

Easily a staking thread I could see on here and probably would be a thread a lot of us would invest in because most people would think that it is printing money!


Put it up then  ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: George2Loose on June 19, 2012, 22:41:27 PM
I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 20, 2012, 08:42:03 AM

I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.


I believe the going rate for one of the best players* in the country is 1.5  ;D



*still hasn"t won an APAT though  ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: George2Loose on June 20, 2012, 11:31:00 AM


I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.


I believe the going rate for one of the best players* in the country is 1.5  ;D



*still hasn"t won an APAT though  ;)


:) wish I could charge 1.5 as a going rate. Think for the main event it"s a special circumstance cos u can get such a huge return on investment
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 20, 2012, 11:35:52 AM

I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.


As one of the senior members George, you should offer your thoughts when people post requests and I think you"ll find that mark ups will reduce to a sensible level as players become more knowledgeable.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 20, 2012, 12:40:38 PM



I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.


I believe the going rate for one of the best players* in the country is 1.5  ;D



*still hasn"t won an APAT though  ;)


:) wish I could charge 1.5 as a going rate. Think for the main event it"s a special circumstance cos u can get such a huge return on investment


I agree, and I hope you win it all.

I was going to try the auction approach but I don"t think we"re quite ready for that here yet. Perhaps something to think about though.

I"m charging 1.18 on my request and I"m sure many people think that"s overpriced and that I"m a bad bet, however those that do invest are only paying a few quid extra for the potential of a decent return. The premium helps cover expenses as well which makes the event affordable for me.Without it I would most likely not be playing it hence the request in the first place.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mal666 on June 20, 2012, 16:31:34 PM


I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.


As one of the senior members George, you should offer your thoughts when people post requests and I think you"ll find that mark ups will reduce to a sensible level as players become more knowledgeable.


When someone puts a request up it"s hard to say I think you"re overpriced without looking like a troll.

Maybe put a line in your template asking people to justify any markup ?

Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 20, 2012, 16:41:28 PM


Maybe put a line in your template asking people to justify any markup ?



I don"t think so...any responses are likely to get out of hand quite quickly.

At the end of the day the markup is a decision for each potential backer to accept....or not.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AAroddersAA on June 20, 2012, 17:30:45 PM


Good stuff Adam

I can"t see makeup being applied too much in this forum"s staking section. Most make-up agreements are long term and done in private.

Though horses, that have continually failed, may choose to pay long term backers all their money back, when they finally land a big one.


I can.

For example - Steve Roderick comes on and says he wants backing for Stars $2.50 turbo 180"s for a minimum of 6 months. He asks for a 200 buy in bankroll to grind these which is $500. He offers 60/40 with MU on the condition that we are happy to reload and that once he reaches $1k he can take shots at $8"s. When he gets to a set figure (example again - $1500) he carves up the $1k and begins again with $500.

(this is a really crap example by the way)

Easily a staking thread I could see on here and probably would be a thread a lot of us would invest in because most people would think that it is printing burning money!

Fixed for you - I am pretty sure said player has failed to cash in the last 24 180"s he has played and is nothing but a luckbox fish.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: George2Loose on June 20, 2012, 17:58:44 PM



I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.


As one of the senior members George, you should offer your thoughts when people post requests and I think you"ll find that mark ups will reduce to a sensible level as players become more knowledgeable.


When someone puts a request up it"s hard to say I think you"re overpriced without looking like a troll.

Maybe put a line in your template asking people to justify any markup ?




Yeh this. TBF it"s up to the market to decide. I really wouldn"t want to play bad guy on anyone"s thread. Obv I hope staking is hugely successful on APAT so no one cares about any mark up paid.

FWIW I would have loved to have got a licence and give APATers a chance to get some of my main event action but 1% of 9 milly was too much ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 20, 2012, 18:07:56 PM




I think this a great venture for APAT however the mark ups are generally unrealistic. I would love to invest some £££ but doubt I"ll be buying at a premium when you can get similar mark ups on some of the best players in the country. I do understand that this may be more about community spirit.


As one of the senior members George, you should offer your thoughts when people post requests and I think you"ll find that mark ups will reduce to a sensible level as players become more knowledgeable.


When someone puts a request up it"s hard to say I think you"re overpriced without looking like a troll.

Maybe put a line in your template asking people to justify any markup ?




Yeh this. TBF it"s up to the market to decide. I really wouldn"t want to play bad guy on anyone"s thread. Obv I hope staking is hugely successful on APAT so no one cares about any mark up paid.

FWIW I would have loved to have got a licence and give APATers a chance to get some of my main event action but 1% of 9 milly was too much ;)


Hey I gave you a free shirt in September 2006 and that sucker"s got to be worth £4 or £5 today due to its uniqueness - first APAT exit and all - so you had a freebie AND a potential profit.  I think you should put a little bit back on the table. ;)
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 25, 2012, 10:40:52 AM
Des,

Could you have a look at Marks and my stake requests to clarify how the APAT % works please.

Thanks
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 25, 2012, 13:26:37 PM
Des has already put a reply up along the lines of:

"To answer the above questions on the APAT percentage.  APAT should receive 1% of the money won by the stakers, paid by the licensed player."

The only issue is the definition of "paid by the licensed player".

Either it means (a) paid in it"s entirety by the horse OR (b) just paid on behalf of all parties.

It makes no difference as far as APAT is concerned but it might to the stakers.

Example:

Player A requests buyers into a £1000 comp but wants to sell off 50%

Players B & C split that...so the investments are:

A - £500
B - £250
C - £250.

Player A cashes for £2000

Return would be £1000 (assuming no stakeback)

Normal split would be:

A - £1000
B - £500
C - £500

However, 1% of staker profit (£5) is to go to APAT paid by Player A

Thus it"s either:

APAT - £5
A - £995
B - £500
C - £500

or

APAT - £5
A - £997.50
B - £498.75
C - £498.75

Small sums I know but it"s best to be clear...no?

Des?
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on June 25, 2012, 13:39:57 PM
I got tired just reading the opening few sentences of that Paulie. :)

The responsibility for paying the APAT fee sits with the Licensed Player.  In addition to returning winnings to his/her Stakers, the licensed player should also return "1% of the total returned to the Stakers", to APAT, via our PayPal account - staker@apat.com.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Paulie_D on June 25, 2012, 13:53:04 PM
So Option A then.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: PHIL_TC on June 25, 2012, 13:59:44 PM

So Option A then.


Don"t think so, I read it as this Paulie...

Split would be (using your example)

A - £1000
B - £500
C - £500

plus on top the "horse" pays £5 £10 to APAT

*edit unless the horse is "A" then I think your option A is right* x
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AJDUK on June 25, 2012, 14:17:17 PM
I thought "1% of the total returned to stakers", i.e. for Paulie"s example 1% x (£500+£500) = £10?

Or at least it was when I was at school. Bring back O levels I say!
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 25, 2012, 14:17:40 PM
Paulie, you say "profit" but Des has said "winnings".

In Marks example he never made any profit as the winnings were less than the overall stake.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AJDUK on June 25, 2012, 14:21:55 PM

The responsibility for paying the APAT fee sits with the Licensed Player.  In addition to returning winnings to his/her Stakers, the licensed player should also return "1% of the total returned to the Stakers", to APAT, via our PayPal account - staker@apat.com.


My issue here is with the definition of winnings. If the stakers don"t make a profit they haven"t won anything. In that case I don"t think APAT should receive anything.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AJDUK on June 25, 2012, 14:28:52 PM


The responsibility for paying the APAT fee sits with the Licensed Player.  In addition to returning winnings to his/her Stakers, the licensed player should also return "1% of the total returned to the Stakers", to APAT, via our PayPal account - staker@apat.com.


My issue here is with the definition of winnings. If the stakers don"t make a profit they haven"t won anything. In that case I don"t think APAT should receive anything.


Of course, there are also scenarios where the stakers may lose but the horse wins e.g. a 100% deal with no stakeback, where the total returns are less than the total stake.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on June 25, 2012, 14:41:40 PM
"Licensed Player":  Players who have sought and received APAT's approval to utilise the Staking Exchange to seek Staking.  Licensed Players will be required to pay APAT a one off £10 license fee and 1% of the total value won by Stakers.

Nothing to do with profit.

In addition to returning any winnings to the stakers, 1% of those winnings will be paid to APAT via the APAT paypal account.

Here"s an example, and you don"t need A, B & C, so as to keep it simple.


Stakee has 50% of the action
Stakers has 50% of the action

Stakee wins £1000

Returns £500 to the stakers
Returns £5 (1% of the stakers return) to APAT
Keeps £495 for themselves


To summarise this prior to the staking taking place would be :-

Stakers 50%
Stakee 49.5%
APAT 0.5%

APAT's percentage in these terms will vary depending on how much of their action the stakee in giving up.  For example

Stakers 80%
Stakee 19.2%
APAT 0.8%

or

Stakers 30%
Stakee 69.7%
APAT 0.3%
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AJDUK on June 25, 2012, 14:52:42 PM

"Licensed Player":  Players who have sought and received APAT's approval to utilise the Staking Exchange to seek Staking.  Licensed Players will be required to pay APAT a one off £10 license fee and 1% of the total value won by Stakers.

Nothing to do with profit.



Then change it to "1% of the total value returned to Stakers, paid from the Players" returns by the Player" or similar.

"won" and "winnings" are the wrong words and create confusion.  
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: SirPercival on June 25, 2012, 15:02:33 PM
Glad to see the OP in my request is in line with the accountants.  ;D

No Jimmy Carr style dodge from me.  :o
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: deanp27 on June 25, 2012, 16:08:20 PM
Pretty sure this was all answered a few weeks ago when i posed the same question. Seems pretty simple to me, stakers get back returns as advertised in the request, stakee pays 1% of any returns to APAT as a fee.

It has nothing to do with profit
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: AJDUK on June 25, 2012, 16:42:00 PM

Pretty sure this was all answered a few weeks ago when i posed the same question. Seems pretty simple to me, stakers get back returns as advertised in the request, stakee pays 1% of any returns to APAT as a fee.

It has nothing to do with profit


True, but the Staker Exchange - Rules & Definitions thread still contains the following:

"Licensed Player":  Players who have sought and received APAT's approval to utilise the Staking Exchange to seek Staking.  Licensed Players will be required to pay APAT a one off £10 license fee and 1% of the total value won by Stakers.

(I can"t quote it because it"s a non-reply thread)

Whilst the word "Won" remains in this definition, confusion will continue. "Returns" is a better word.

Q+A gets buried in threads. But once a Q is A"d, then the definition post should be updated/clarified so that the same Q doesn"t get asked again ;)


Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mporter123 on July 09, 2012, 12:47:36 PM
Can we include a minimum that the 1% of Stakers returns covers? I.e. £5

Alternatively can I keep a tab running and ship back when we get to £5?

Shipping 20p to APAT once a week seems a waste of time. I guess I could just win...
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on July 09, 2012, 17:16:58 PM


Pretty sure this was all answered a few weeks ago when i posed the same question. Seems pretty simple to me, stakers get back returns as advertised in the request, stakee pays 1% of any returns to APAT as a fee.

It has nothing to do with profit


True, but the Staker Exchange - Rules & Definitions thread still contains the following:

"Licensed Player":  Players who have sought and received APAT's approval to utilise the Staking Exchange to seek Staking.  Licensed Players will be required to pay APAT a one off £10 license fee and 1% of the total value won by Stakers.

(I can"t quote it because it"s a non-reply thread)

Whilst the word "Won" remains in this definition, confusion will continue. "Returns" is a better word.

Q+A gets buried in threads. But once a Q is A"d, then the definition post should be updated/clarified so that the same Q doesn"t get asked again ;)





Agreed, wording has been updated.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on July 09, 2012, 17:18:31 PM

Can we include a minimum that the 1% of Stakers returns covers? I.e. £5

Alternatively can I keep a tab running and ship back when we get to £5?

Shipping 20p to APAT once a week seems a waste of time. I guess I could just win...


Agreed...win more Mark!  :)

Even though the amounts are insignificant I don"t think we should create different payment rules by amount or things will get extremely confusing around here.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mporter123 on July 10, 2012, 13:17:43 PM


Can we include a minimum that the 1% of Stakers returns covers? I.e. £5

Alternatively can I keep a tab running and ship back when we get to £5?

Shipping 20p to APAT once a week seems a waste of time. I guess I could just win...


Agreed...win more Mark!  :)

Even though the amounts are insignificant I don"t think we should create different payment rules by amount or things will get extremely confusing around here.


Understood, will double check what I have sent so far is correct and send for the most recent Sunday.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mporter123 on July 11, 2012, 13:48:36 PM
Shipped another 29p to APAT to cover last Sunday"s stake. All up to date now.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: mousebob on August 03, 2012, 22:53:01 PM
Just realised I forgot to pay APAT 1% of my "returns" i.e. $0.83.
I presume I convert this to GBP, go through paypal pay & pay their fee.
Going to cost me 22p to send 51p. lol.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Des on August 04, 2012, 10:24:45 AM

Just realised I forgot to pay APAT 1% of my "returns" i.e. $0.83.
I presume I convert this to GBP, go through paypal pay & pay their fee.
Going to cost me 22p to send 51p. lol.


Stealth rake! :)

We will look at this going forward methinks.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: undisputed on August 12, 2012, 15:50:33 PM


Just realised I forgot to pay APAT 1% of my "returns" i.e. $0.83.
I presume I convert this to GBP, go through paypal pay & pay their fee.
Going to cost me 22p to send 51p. lol.


Stealth rake! :)

We will look at this going forward methinks.


How long do applications take please ??
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: Chipaccrual on August 12, 2012, 17:35:01 PM



Just realised I forgot to pay APAT 1% of my "returns" i.e. $0.83.
I presume I convert this to GBP, go through paypal pay & pay their fee.
Going to cost me 22p to send 51p. lol.


Stealth rake! :)

We will look at this going forward methinks.


How long do applications take please ??


Should be a quick turnaround, although Des has been away this week, so might be a slight delay.
Title: Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
Post by: poker_jason on September 27, 2012, 20:41:12 PM
Is Des away? Also is Des the only person who can process the applications?
Cheers
Jason