Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Non Poker Forum => Sports Betting & Discussion => Topic started by: Scousebill on June 22, 2012, 19:23:21 PM
-
Me personally, I think it should be the Third Division. For Charles Green trying to persuade clubs about the amount of money the League will lose is poor. Whatever money is involved in Scottish football now is probably contracted and is unlikely to change by much if it is allowed to. Think of what money the teams from the Third Division will gain by playing Rangers, a lot more than what they would receive from the SPL coffers with Rangers in the Premier.
How many Premier teams are now looking at finishing second to Celtic in the league with the rewards that brings. Champions League, even if it is only one round it is going to be there for three seasons at least.
The rules are the rules and just because it is Rangers, a massive team with an illustrious history, it should not mean that they should not be punished the same way as any other club would be if they had done the same.
Also, whatever happens after July 4th, if FIFA and UEFA do not think the sanctions are tough enough then they may well impose their own punishments for taking the initial appeal to the law courts and not keeping it in house with the Sports Arbitration Courts..
Hard times are ahead for Rangers, although it may well be for only four seasons it will be hard.
Whatever happens I hope they survive but they do need to be punished..
-
Third division for me. Will be a great journey for the fans.
-
I"m a Rangers fan and still agree that it has to be 3rd Division for what they"ve been up to, though I do have to say Bill, the TV companies could pull the plug on any contract as they have a clause stating that both parts of the Old Firm are happy to have their games screened. Not sure the TV companies will be keen on that being weekly runs of Rangers v East Stirling, Elgin v Rangers etc. The TV contracts disappearing would be a very large nail in the coffin of Scottish Football and things are already bad enough.
-
Not an expert in Scottish football but.......
SPL ainec - how is this even a question. Grant why does it HAVE to be Div 3 mate? It doesn"t, they can go into the SPL, there is a spare space and they are the best option to fill it by a mile !!!! You are suggesting risking killing off the SPL.
Whilst I do feel Rangers SHOULD be punished, this is just not a sensible course of action. The SPL without Rangers is much less than the SPL with Rangers and I cannot see how Scottish football does not suffer horribly, the league is not strong enough without them. Celtic would become MUCH weaker as they would not have to be nearly as strong to win the SPL at a canter (OK it will probably happen with or without Rangers for the next couple of season). The other teams miss out on big pay days they get by playing Rangers (look at the difference in SPL teams home gates when they play the Old Firm teams) and are the games against Celtic as meaningful if it doesn"t matter if they win or lose as Celtic are going to win the SPL anyway. Maybe even more so next season as they would have a very realistic chance of beating them. Taking Rangers away punishes Scottish football more than demoting Rangers punishes them. It also probably hurts the national team.
If Rangers end up in Div 3 then I reckon by the end of the season we will have a situation where the best team in Wales is better than the best team in Scotland. Maybe Celtic will think sod this and finally clear off to the EPL (ok that"s still unlikely but the removal of Rangers makes it more likely), they would be followed by newco Rangers a few seasons later if that happens, and that will be that for the SPL - gg wp.
Surely the SPL teams know this and will eventually vote Rangers in. Rangers will be just fine either way, if Scottish football falls apart there will no doubt be a place in the EPL waiting (even if they have to get promoted into it - and they would be, they are a massive club). Teams like Aberdeen and Hearts would be the ones to suffer long term.
-
Rodders.... Celtic have no chance of joining the EPL and Rangers are now a million miles away from ever being accepted even into the English league nevermind EPL.
The Scottish Premier may suffer with the loss of Rangers but as I have said if the EPL don"t impose strong sanctions then FIFA certainly will because of the external court case.
The TV revenue argument doesn"t really stand up for teams lower down the leagues as they don"t get that much of a percentage anyway, that is why they have been trying to negotiate their own terms with BBC Alba and ESPN. They certainly would have a good bargaining tool if Rangers were demoted.
If there was to be a breakaway from the SPL with Celtic and "Newco" Rangers then it would likely be back to the drawing board with the Atlantic League plan of The Big Two and Scandinavian teams making a new multi-nation league. Something like this, even if sanctioned by UEFA would only last a few years as there would be no representation in the Champions League as they would not be national champions. The whole of European qualification rules would have to be changed and that is why Celtic would never be allowed to join the EPL. Not that they would ever qualify for Europe from the EPL anyway.
I await the results of the vote on July 4th with interest.. Born on the 4th July could soon become Died on 4th July....
-
If FIFA impose sanctions nothing much can be done about it. I actually doubt very much Rangers will be in the SPL next year but overall I think it would be far better for Scottish football if they were. Does the TV revenue not help teams like Hearts, Aberdeen and Hibs.
Why do you think it is so unlikely that Celtic (and eventually Rangers) would be accepted into the EPL though. I agree they would be mid table at the moment but would probably get better and become more competitive quite quickly. As far as I know it"s never been properly investigated (correct me if I am wrong on this).
Why would they want to play in a league with the Scandinavian teams when they may be able to play in the EPL.
Very interesting situation though
-
It"s not the SPL and now they are trying to use the "Money that we generate" to scare the smaller teams into voting Rangers into Division One. I think with the vote being 8 days away then Rangers will try to use the financial aspect a lot in this time. I still think that the other teams will vote for Rangers to become a Third Division team and in the long run the financial side of it will balance itself out. If they enter the Third division then realistically they will be back in the SPL in 3 or possibly 4 seasons. The other novelty will be the Scottish Cup, they will be in the First Round as a Third Division team and some small Non-league club could make a killing.. Finances which Rangers say they provide will come in very handy for one of these teams.. Roll on 12th July.
-
What is the actual vote on? To enter them into the Scottish football league or is that a given and it"s just what division to put them in?
If I was in the scottish league I wouldn"t want to put them in L3, as that makes the next 3 years in the league pointless as they"ll romp away with each league until they go back to prem.
So it seems "sensible" to minimise the timescale and go into L1, making it only 1 year of disruption, not only on the playing sir but financially to for tv and sponsorship.
-
The whole thing is a real sorry mess and Scottish Football has been a shade or 2 below mediocre for a number of years now, so maybe this is the reality check that was needed. Our top 2 clubs have been paying run of the mill pro"s inflated wages that aren"t relevant to their particular level of skills, simply because they need to win our league over their oldest rivals. Rangers should now give that up and bleed a group of youngsters through the ranks, who hopefully may turn out in 5 years to a more talented bunch than those who"ve been churned out over the past 10 years.
Let"s be honest about it, there"s been very little real class in our leagues since the departures of the likes of Larsson.
Sadly it looks like our SPL one horse race is already over before it started with title winner already known for the next 3 seasons, that shows how farcical the whole situation is.
-
I will bet anybody now, for a small charitable sum, that if Rangers do start again in the Third Division that they will not get three direct promotions back to the SPL...
-
I will bet anybody now, for a small charitable sum, that if Rangers do start again in the Third Division that they will not get three direct promotions back to the SPL...
They are bound too, I STILL don"t think they will start in Div 3 though
-
I will bet anybody now, for a small charitable sum, that if Rangers do start again in the Third Division that they will not get three direct promotions back to the SPL...
They are bound too, I STILL don"t think they will start in Div 3 though
There are a few people who have this idea.
It strikes me as particularly unusual - everything to do with integrity and the actual rules suggests they should start in Div 3.
But financially everyone loses out by this - it"s most peculiar that the financial loss doesn"t seem to have swayed the argument.
-
I don"t say that I know everything about football, and especially Scottish Football but I"m getting it right so far.. Rangers at this moment in time are only a big name.. They have lost many players from the top to the very bottom. Many youth players left at the start of the problems to help save the club money on wages and it took a month or so before the top earners agreed. Rangers have been correctly placed into Division Three. The financial aspect hasn"t and shouldn"t of come into it anyway. The Newco Rangers would never of been able to generate enough money for them to survive in the first division, nevermind bounce straight back into the SPL. Where would the instant money come from to pay the higher wages?
This isn"t over yet.. Rangers were deducted 10 points for what was found at the time. Other irregularities have come to light since that can incur penalties and that is why Newco Rangers wanted a guarantee that if they started in League One that no further penalties would be incurred. I can see the new season being a difficult one with Youth and third rate players having to start the season with a 10 point penalty.
-
But financially everyone loses out by this - it"s most peculiar that the financial loss doesn"t seem to have swayed the argument.
The likes of Elgin, Peterhead et al will finiancially be better off with their inflated home gates and 2 visits to Ibrox. The Division 2 & 1 clubs will get similar benefits once Rangers get promoted up the ladder so everyone lower down is a winner. The biggest losers are the Rangers fans and staff and those other teams who will very probably follow them once the financial implications higher up start to bite. A real sorry mess caused by a few individuals who didn"t balance the books properly, and then added insult to injury by doing a few Delboy moves to help cover things up :-[
-
Agree totally with your post Santino... Things will get worse before they get better.. Financially, whoever finishes second in the SPL will be in the European Cup for a few seasons.. It is similar to when FC United of Manchester formed and had to play in the North West Counties.. The smaller teams were made up.. 4,000 gates when they were used to less that 100.. Most of the third division clubs will get by with the gate revenue from the Rangers games until something sorts itself out. This vote has been swayed by finance, but swayed by what each club can get from match revenue, not some handout from the SPL. Correct decision all round I would say...
-
The biggest losers are the Rangers fans and staff.... A real sorry mess caused by a few individuals who didn"t balance the books properly...
As a long-suffering Swindon Town supporter, I have every sympathy with Rangers fans. After we"d been promoted to the top flight for the first time in our history in 1990, the news that we"d then been relegated two divisions due to financial irregularities was absolutely crushing. The Board move on, the players move on - it"s the fans that stay behind and suffer.
-
rangers in d3 will give lower clubs a huge windfall. however spl clubs will miss out on the rangers gate money and a number of spl clubs are finding it hard going and could buckle without the rangers cash. sky have already said they are going to look at the spl contract. looks like it will be changing, so all of scottish football will miss out.rangers fans, players and other staff have not done anything wrong. it seems to me the ex chairman tried to use what he thought was legal loophole to avoid playing taxes and got his finger burnt. then he leaves the club with a sizeable sum of money. he is laughing and every one else is f-----, including scottish football. very short sighted decision not to allow rangers to play in spl.
-
very short sighted decision not to allow rangers to play in spl.
Rangers went into administration owing up to £134m and will eventually be liquidated. Their expulsion and subsequent failed re-admission were standard as per SPL rules. They also face further sanctions pending the inquiry into non declared player payments. In short, they cheated, got caught and rightly should face the consequences.
The financial implications for Scottish football are clouding what should be a cut and dried procedure. It appears you would consider waiving the rules in lieu of those complications, now some might indeed consider that as short sighted.
-
...
The financial implications for Scottish football are clouding what should be a cut and dried procedure. It appears you would consider waiving the rules in lieu of those complications, now some might indeed consider that as short sighted.
This
I was actually really surprised that almost all of the clubs were so united in making sure the rules were applied as they should be - even though it was going to cost them money.
Obviously the clubs would have had to deal with a backlash from their fans if they"d ignored the rules and voted for the new Rangers to enter anywhere other than the bottom - but it was still a shock that it was so one sided.
-
If I was an investor in any one of the SPL Clubs, I would be challenging the Directors of that Club, to explain to me, why they took a decision that would put the Company in a position of possible Administration/Liquidation.
Company Law has clauses that clearly state a Directors Duties, and I believe that the Directors of all the SPL clubs have some explaining to do to their, shareholders.
-
If I was an investor in any one of the SPL Clubs, I would be challenging the Directors of that Club, to explain to me, why they took a decision that would put the Company in a position of possible Administration/Liquidation.
Company Law has clauses that clearly state a Directors Duties, and I believe that the Directors of all the SPL clubs have some explaining to do to their, shareholders.
That only applies if it"s a limited company - I don"t know the exact process but I would imagine even with the ones which are owned by ltd companies that the vote was taken by the people running the clubs rather than the people running the ltd companies that own the clubs. Even so it probably wouldn"t be too hard to cover commercial grounds for the reasoning if they put their mind to it.
-
very short sighted decision not to allow rangers to play in spl.
Rangers went into administration owing up to £134m and will eventually be liquidated. Their expulsion and subsequent failed re-admission were standard as per SPL rules. They also face further sanctions pending the inquiry into non declared player payments. In short, they cheated, got caught and rightly should face the consequences.
The financial implications for Scottish football are clouding what should be a cut and dried procedure. It appears you would consider waiving the rules in lieu of those complications, now some might indeed consider that as short sighted.
Completely agree with the above - in an ideal world.
In Scottish football though it"s likely to cause huge upset and maybe some SPL club will indeed fold without Rangers gate money and Sky investment. The clubs did vote on this so I suppose it is fair enough.
We will have to wait and see the outcome of this but I Rangers will be fine. Their fans do not suffer at all, they will just get promoted back into the SPL and it will be as you were. Some other current SPL clubs may well not be there. Rangers will then win the SPL (probably within 10 years) and will claim they took their punishment and climbed back to the top.
A question I think is interesting - who will win the SPL First?
1. Rangers
2. One of the following:-
Aberdeen
Hearts
Dundee Utd
Hibs
Kilmarnock
Motherwell
Inverness
St Johnston
In ten years time which of these clubs will finish highest in the SPL.
Rangers
Aberdeen
Hearts
Dundee Utd
Hibs
Kilmarnock
Motherwell
Inverness
St Johnston
How much a punishment is it really? Not a lot anybody can do about it though.
-
very short sighted decision not to allow rangers to play in spl.
Rangers went into administration owing up to £134m and will eventually be liquidated. Their expulsion and subsequent failed re-admission were standard as per SPL rules. They also face further sanctions pending the inquiry into non declared player payments. In short, they cheated, got caught and rightly should face the consequences.
The financial implications for Scottish football are clouding what should be a cut and dried procedure. It appears you would consider waiving the rules in lieu of those complications, now some might indeed consider that as short sighted.
How much a punishment is it really? Not a lot anybody can do about it though.
There is still the possibilty of further sanctions.
Is financial doping akin to an Athlete taking performance enhancing drugs? imho it is, the club/business break the rules so as to gain financial advantage which in professional sport = competitive advantage.
When found guilty of such transgressions, athletes are rightly stripped of their ill gotten gains. For a team example:
Juventus were stripped of 2 Serie A titles because of the 2006 matchfixing scandal.
McLaren were excluded from the 2007 constructors' championship and fined US$100 million for breaching F1 rules.
Would stripping some of their SPL titles won during the Period of transgression be a justified penalty?
-
Rangers will not get promoted each season. I have posted earlier that I think that it will take at least 5 seasons for them to make it back to the SPL. If other teams fall by the wayside then that is by fault of their own, not by Rangers. I know that teams have probably never thought of Scottish football without the money that both Celtic and Rangers generated but they have now learnt the lesson of not relying on the "golden eggs". Scottish football will survive, some clubs might not and unfortunately because of this other clubs will benefit. I think it was disgusting that Rangers and the SPL tried to bribe votes by using the immediate financial predicament and the enticement of a bigger SPL and play-offs to allow sub standard clubs into the SPL. The lower league clubs on the whole survive on next to nothing and they will continue to do so because of Chairmen who wish to spend money running the club. Rangers being in Division 3 is a benefit to these smaller clubs. Scottish football is in a spot of bother at the moment but I think it will all sort itself out over the next 10 years for the better. Surely only lessons can be learnt from this debacle.
-
I will bet anybody now, for a small charitable sum, that if Rangers do start again in the Third Division that they will not get three direct promotions back to the SPL...
They are bound too, I STILL don"t think they will start in Div 3 though
There are a few people who have this idea.
It strikes me as particularly unusual - everything to do with integrity and the actual rules suggests they should start in Div 3.
But financially everyone loses out by this - it"s most peculiar that the financial loss doesn"t seem to have swayed the argument.
Certainly not saying "I told you so" but it might even be another season before Rangers are able to make the step up.
-
I will bet anybody now, for a small charitable sum, that if Rangers do start again in the Third Division that they will not get three direct promotions back to the SPL...
They are bound too, I STILL don"t think they will start in Div 3 though
There are a few people who have this idea.
It strikes me as particularly unusual - everything to do with integrity and the actual rules suggests they should start in Div 3.
But financially everyone loses out by this - it"s most peculiar that the financial loss doesn"t seem to have swayed the argument.
Certainly not saying "I told you so" but it might even be another season before Rangers are able to make the step up.
Well they will not win the league but they will get in the playoffs and are favourites to win I would have though?
-
Just to reignite......
I nearly won a few quid when I did 3-0 to Motherwell in the first leg and did 3-1 in the second.... Doh....