Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Des on May 29, 2013, 20:17:38 PM
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We"re looking for some further feedback on Season Seven, and particularly on a topic that involves your money, so I wanted to bring this discussion onto a separate post to ensure it isn"t missed by anyone.
Firstly, I"m confident we"ll be able to announce the Season Seven tour dates once Wembley is out of the way. DTD have been wholly focused on the ISPT for the past few weeks and as a result we haven"t locked down our S7 festivals there yet. However that will follow quickly once everyone has gathered their breath from the ISPT. We (APAT & DTD) are aware of the dates and events in question, we just need Simon to look at in detail and confirm resource availability.
So to seat reservations, a service that we"re considering making a £5 charge for in Season Seven.
As a bit of background, APAT offered players the ability to reserve seats ahead of the last WCOAP and we are doing so again with the Masters event at Wembley. In principle I think this is a really good service and allows players to book holidays at work and accommodation safe in the knowledge that their APAT seat is guaranteed. This is good for us and our members.
However, there are some downsides to how the service operates currently, predominately:
1. The administration of managing and amending player lists right up to the event taking place - this is largely driven by cancellations, which ran to about 20% at the recent WCOAP.
2. The lack of seat availability for new players, who may not be aware of our initial on sale dates - this is because seats tend to get reserved quickly, and new players do not often come back to see whether those seats have become available at a later date due to cancellations.
So what we"d like to do is to offer seat reservations with a £5 charge for all events in Season Seven.
Now of course some events are more popular than others, so there may be no need for you to guarantee a seat in advance for those specific events - but we"ll offer it anyway and of course it will always be optional. Direct buy in on the day at a casino will not feature the reservation charge as you would expect. Similarly, players qualifying through our online satellites will have their seats guaranteed without needing to pay any additional reservation charge.
A real positive here is that we will be able to put a "Pay Now" link to all of our events on the APAT home page well in advance of the events taking place. This will provide an immediate call to action for new members landing on the APAT sites; and we have over 5,000 unique players landing on APAT.com a month alone. It will stop us managing the tour in four week cycles, which ties up our resource in the wrong areas. We are a small team and should be focusing on developing our offer for you, not continually administering it.
This will also generate some revenue for APAT. The service provider will charge a merchandising fee of around £1 for the online card transaction. So APAT would get around £4 of the reservation fee per player, and I think it"s important that we continue to generate revenue, as operator marketing budgets are not what they used to be in the industry.
Ultimately we want players to support our revenue generation through playing online with APAT or our partner sites, but that isn"t for everyone, so this is an alternative opportunity for you to show support for the tour; which was the UK"s first.
Some of the questions that I think you might ask are:-
1) Will we be able to continue to buy in directly through the APAT client?
A: No, this is an admin nightmare that requires the seat sale to be taken offline two weeks before the event so that your money can be transferred to the casino. It involves a lot of admin and form filling and constant checking to see where the money is and is anything but a stable run up to the event. It also involves a lot of juggling with currency conversions and has led to additional costs for both APAT and our members on occasion in the past.
2) Can you extend the "seat reservation" payment to include "full event" payment?
A: In theory we could, but the merchandising fees are prohibitive on an £82.50 transaction and it would also require us to close off the event at least two weeks in advance to receive the money and then transfer it on to the casino. So it"s possible, but not an ideal solution. The £5 seat reservation fee is not part of the £82.50, so it would not be passed on to the casino or create the additional admin.
3) I reserved a seat and need to pull out at a later date, can I get my £5 back?
A: Unfortunately not, it"s the cost of having your name go on and off the list, and the merchandising fees associated with that. Hopefully this small charge will be enough to encourage players to be reasonably sure they plan to attend the event in question, but not so much that it will hurt you if your plans change.
4) Can I reserve multiple events in the season now?
A: Yes, it is our aim to put as many of the events on sale at the start of the season as is possible. I believe that will drive a significant increase in player numbers and prize pools across the season.
5) Has APAT's focus changed and is it now all about making money?
A: Our focus has had to change since launch, as the market we operate in (indeed created) has changed around us. However one thing we"ve always strived to do is to offer well structured, competitive & community orientated tournaments to our members and that remains our core objective. We announced the acquisition of poker.co.uk last year and that generates revenue when you guys play on it, once we have covered our monthly guarantees to the network. Similarly we"ve just acquired the Live Pub Poker League and that will also generate revenue and enable us to offer some interesting new events in the coming weeks....look out for the APAT Home League for example. We"ll also launch a very innovative fantasy product (not that sort of fantasy) in the near future, that should widen our reach considerably. And when we do spend money, we do so very wisely, those of you who have seen me at a bar will understand that!
6) We don"t want to spend £5 to reserve a seat, does that count for anything?
A: Yes, of course it does. One thing we pride ourselves on is our willingness to listen to our customers. Some will say this idea is fine and others will say it"s wrong, and we"ll take a consensus of opinion from this thread before finalising our approach. All that I ask is that you give the idea fair consideration. :)
Over to you the jury!
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I"m happy to pay what is, in effect, a voluntary charge to be guaranteed a seat at events I may attend.
There will be some where I don"t feel the need (Ireland for instance) and some where I want to lock it up straight away.
Now wait for the Seat Reservation Exchange to open. :)
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I agree with Paulie. £5 seems a fair price for the service offered (i.e. to guarantee a seat without having to pay up front).
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What Paulie (NS TG HoF with bar) said ;D I have no problem with that idea at all....
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What will happen if I pay £5 and subsequently sat in to a tournament?
I"m not sure I am 100% percent behind this at the moment; essentially because no other organisation does this and the admin is just a necessary evil of running an event. I will ponder...
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Yeah what Paulie said. I think this would be a good thing to have as an option. I would use it.
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What will happen if I pay £5 and subsequently sat in to a tournament?
I"m not sure I am 100% percent behind this at the moment; essentially because no other organisation does this and the admin is just a necessary evil of running an event. I will ponder...
We can"t compete with multi million £ organisations like Sky, Genting, Grosvenor, PokerStars or DTD for that matter JB. to consider us amongst them is of course a huge compliment to what APAT has achieved. But consider the reality of who we are and where we came from.
If you sat in there"s no charge as I mention above. :)
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ps - I"m not convinced many of the organisations mentioned above would run a multi page thread seeking feedback from their customers on what they"d like to see on the next tour either, or recognise and know such a large percentage of them by their first name. We"re small, but I like to think we do some of the important things well.
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So does that mean APAT events are now going to be £75 + £7.50 + £5 ?
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So does that mean APAT events are now going to be £75 + £7.50 + £5 ?
Only if you want a guaranteed seat.
If you choose not to reserve a seat then it"s only £75 + £7.50 and you take a chance on not getting in.
Your choice.
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So does that mean APAT events are now going to be £75 + £7.50 + £5 ?
Only if feedback supports it Andrew, and in that scenario for seats reserved in advance. Not for seats bought at the venue or for seats won online.
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So does that mean APAT events are now going to be £75 + £7.50 + £5 ?
Only if feedback supports it Andrew, and in that scenario for seats reserved in advance. Not for seats bought at the venue or for seats won online.
Hi Des, what I meant before was if you won a seat (which will be x+x buy in) would you get the £5 refunded?
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So does that mean APAT events are now going to be £75 + £7.50 + £5 ?
Only if feedback supports it Andrew, and in that scenario for seats reserved in advance. Not for seats bought at the venue or for seats won online.
Hi Des, what I meant before was if you won a seat (which will be x+x buy in) would you get the £5 refunded?
Absolutely!
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So does that mean APAT events are now going to be £75 + £7.50 + £5 ?
Only if feedback supports it Andrew, and in that scenario for seats reserved in advance. Not for seats bought at the venue or for seats won online.
Thing is it will stop people just reserving seats for events which they know they are not likely to attend and stop the massive amount of drop outs. Des, Leigh and the guys do such a great job of keeping those threads up to date and ensuring that we are kept up to speed with the situations we forget how much work is involved for them.
This service will not be required for the vast majority of events either. These days most events just do not sell out and you can feel totally comfortable just turning up and paying the buyin.
If the £5 cuts down the workload for the APAT organizers then it is fair enough really. If it helps keep the events running as they do then I support it.
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I don"t think this is a great idea tbh, regardless of the merits of this it just doesn"t have the right "APAT" feel to it. Can"t see a casual player being too impressed.
I"m not a fan of the forum based seat reservation for the reasons outlined, but I believe it could work and cut down on admin if structured better. I.e.
- Seats reserved on first come, first served basis as per current process. These players have until a certain date (i.e. 2 weeks prior) to pay the full buy-in.
- Any seats not paid for are wiped and offered to the waiting list for another set period of time.
- Any remaining then given to the host casino for first come, first served their end.
If there is adequate reporting of who"s paid then any manual admin only needs to be done at each cut-off point. The above could be built into the website and be automated by someone with decent coding knowledge. Ignoring the payment side a simple automated reservation list publicly available would be pretty simple to knock up so that APAT doesn"t have to read and edit every single post made.
Some of the above might be impossible depending on payment processors/money transfers etc, but automating a reserved list seems like a quick and relatively easy fix to me?
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What does this mean exactly?
but the merchandising fees are prohibitive on an £82.50 transaction
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If someone has paid the fiver but cant make it/forgets etc...are the chips put on the table to blind away?
If not how long does the reservation last?
I ask because I am not the greatest at getting there on time but would hate to set out not knowing i had a seat :)
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I don"t think this is a great idea tbh, regardless of the merits of this it just doesn"t have the right "APAT" feel to it. Can"t see a casual player being too impressed.
I agree with Dave. Feels like dropping the ball. Not sure how you attract new players to the fold with tournaments costing more for committed players than others who aren"t prepared or able to commit.
It"s backwards to the hotel idea - i.e. with them if you commit and pay early you get your room cheaper. The later you leave it the more it costs or it"s just sold out.
With this plan loyalty and commitment to APAT will be costlier. Where"s the sense in that?
Why can"t we just BACS the cash to an APAT bank a/c, and you then BACS it to the casino say 5 days before, then the remaining seats go on sale at the casino? Any drop outs need to seat transfer or forfeit if no takers. There must be a flaw in that I guess!
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I don"t really understand why we can"t return to the old system where the seats go onsale on a certain date and if you want in then you BUY one, not reserve one.
If not, then use what Andy says in that you pay £75 to enter up until say 2-3 weeks before the event. After that the cost goes up to £80.
I don"t believe it is fair to charge (possibly) 8 x £5 for loyalty for a season......and of course, when the WCOAP came around, that could / will mean you would pay an extra £30-£40 for the whole series on top of this??
No No No.
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If someone has paid the fiver but cant make it/forgets etc...are the chips put on the table to blind away?
If not how long does the reservation last?
I ask because I am not the greatest at getting there on time but would hate to set out not knowing i had a seat :)
Nope
All the £5 does is guarantee your name on the list. If you don"t turn up on time to buy-in on the day your name comes off and you"re SOL.
No chips on the table until the buy-in is done.
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What does this mean exactly?
but the merchandising fees are prohibitive on an £82.50 transaction
It means the "rake" taken by the processing company would be excessive.
They take a fairly huge percentage and this would have to come out of the prize pool.
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I don"t really understand why we can"t return to the old system where the seats go onsale on a certain date and if you want in then you BUY one, not reserve one.
If not, then use what Andy says in that you pay £75 to enter up until say 2-3 weeks before the event. After that the cost goes up to £80.
I don"t believe it is fair to charge (possibly) 8 x £5 for loyalty for a season......and of course, when the WCOAP came around, that could / will mean you would pay an extra £30-£40 for the whole series on top of this??
No No No.
APAT has no mechanism in place that can do this without substantial cost.
As Des mentioned, the buy-in through APAT Poker is unworkable and processing fees for other online payment options are prohibitively expensive.
One way or another we"d end up paying (as I understand it) an extra amount to either guarantee a place on the iist or buy-in early.
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Why can"t we just BACS the cash to an APAT bank a/c, and you then BACS it to the casino say 5 days before, then the remaining seats go on sale at the casino? Any drop outs need to seat transfer or forfeit if no takers. There must be a flaw in that I guess!
At first glance, its sound like an optimal solution but it is fraught with administrative issues of it"s own.
Firstly, commercial banking is not free so it would cost APAT money to do this.
It would still involve manual lists.
What happens if a payment arrives after the deadline?
Etc.
I take your point about the hotel idea but none of them offer a "pay a small fee now and we guarantee you a room but we won"t charge you the full whack if you don"t turn up" option.
No, you have to pay in full up front and, as has been mentioned the various options for doing that are either too expensive or still involve a lot of administration that APAT is clearly trying to eliminate.
I"d rather NOT pay myself but I recognise that something has to change pending another solution coming along..ideally a revised buy-in procedure using APAT Poker.
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My view is that £75 is an absolute steal for such a well organised and structured event. Plus you get to meet lots of great people (looking forward to GX tomorrow!).
Adding £5 to this cost for a guaranteed seat and to give APAT, who, I assume, do silly amounts of work behind the scenes, is a price very well worth paying.
Also, whenever I get the chance to play an event, travel and hotels bills dwarf this £5 charge.
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Firstly I think we should stress the point Des has made about consultation with members. This is one of the things that makes APAT great and we should be pleased that we can debate this before it is implemented rather than just moan about it after (which we will anyway!).
I am very much against this idea, but not for selfish reasons, as I am lucky enough to be in a position to pay extra for something I want and not bother enough to care if it was good value. Apologies if that sounds arrogant.
So my reason for not being in favour is because I don"t believe this would be in the long term interests of APAT.
Is APAT wanting to please its hardcore members who want to play every event at any cost? Those that read and contribute to the forum? Those that hit f5 until their finger bleeds on the day that Des says an announcement is going to be made? OR do they want to create a sustainable brand that appeals to all amateur players new and old. Attracts new players to the game and continues to influence the industry to provide good value for money to the average Jo poker player? (Des: I ask this every year - what is the vision? when you know this you can make decisions of whats best for APAT, when you have to guess/assume etc then its difficult to give an informed opinion in order to help those decisions)
So assuming that we are trying to appeal to the latter category of player as well as the former what is the benefit to them to pay an extra £5? what do APAT offer that the others do not? Why pay extra when I could go somewhere else?
I have said before that I fear APAT is losing it"s USP. It used to be rake free, this was unique. It still does offer well run good value deepstack tournaments but now so do many others. It still does innovate and try new formats but so do many others. It still does have a strong loyal community but so do many others. I think charging (albeit optional) extra for a seat is a USP, but not a positive one.
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As my post above doesnt offer any solutions to the revenue issue I thought I"d reserect one idea I suggested a few years ago (and others have too) which is to reintroduce a membership fee.
A "Gold" "Silver" "Bronze" type approach would allow it still to be free to all - "Bronze"
"Silver" could be a small annual charge and could give benefits like being able to use the staking thread, a drink bought by Des at a live event* etc.
"Gold" could allow you to preregister for events (the admin cost of such is covered by the charge for gold membership)
* OK, I accept this idea needs some work!
I accept this may seem like a contridiction to my arguement above in that it is reintroducing a fee to get a seat and it is still optional however I think if marketed correctly, the "membership" element could be built into a strong USP.
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Don"t like the idea of paying £5 to reserve a seat for every event, as others have stated i do think it would put off new players and only really end up costing the regular APAT members more who will always want to guarantee their seat.
Could something similar to the staking license not be done? Eg "Season 7 priority player" Kind of a membership but only for the duration of that season? Giving that member priority seat reservation and no seat resevation fee? I"m sure in the past ive read something similar to this on here, only been a member for 18 months so if this is something you have tried in the past i apologise for repeating it :)
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There is some really good feedback here everyone, so I appreciate that and look forward to running through and responding in detail this evening.
Ultimately there are two elements in discussion, it"s not just about revenue. There is also the admin question and some of the responses to date aren"t necessarily taking that into account.
That aside it"s positive to hear members say that they are afraid of APAT positioning ourselves as being too expensive and worrying how new members might perceive this.
Could I offer an opinion that perhaps APAT offers a more personalised and community orientated service to our customers and for that reason what we offer might justify a premium fee? Whether you view it similarly is very important and if you do, what a premium is worth is equally important.
The final thing I would say now is don"t underestimate the important of having a clear message on the home page with an instant call to action. "Buy Now". How difficult is it to buy a seat to an APAT event if you"re a new player? Very difficult in my opinion. If we go down this route then I believe for recreational players, it becomes easier to get a seat with APAT than with any other tour nationwide.
Not saying I"m right, but I"m throwing my thoughts in there alongside yours.
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Could I offer an opinion that perhaps APAT offers a more personalised and community orientated service to our customers and for that reason what we offer might justify a premium fee? Whether you view it similarly is very important and if you do, what a premium is worth is equally important.
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This is true, but I think the biggest problem is to do with attracting new players - you can"t tell that this is the case until you"re already involved with APAT.
I think the perception will be of £75 +£12.50 tournaments - and that"s going to put off a lot of recreational players because people rarely tend to look at even the most basic of details before coming to conclusions.
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Could I offer an opinion that perhaps APAT offers a more personalised and community orientated service to our customers and for that reason what we offer might justify a premium fee? Whether you view it similarly is very important and if you do, what a premium is worth is equally important.
I dont think APAT is any more personalised and community orientated than many of the others out there. YES it is personalised, YES it is community orientated and if you ask forum users for an opinion on this you are likely going to get the loyal followers saying it is.
Just a thought? Is there any way to ask for feedback from those who are more loyal to other communities? Many of these will also be members here. In fact if you look at the dynamics of the APAT community there are sub groups made up from other communities. Maybe we should just get BCPC to charge £10 to get a seat at their events - problem solved! ;)
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Could I offer an opinion that perhaps APAT offers a more personalised and community orientated service to our customers and for that reason what we offer might justify a premium fee? Whether you view it similarly is very important and if you do, what a premium is worth is equally important.
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This is true, but I think the biggest problem is to do with attracting new players - you can"t tell that this is the case until you"re already involved with APAT.
This is the problem. Maybe you are even asking the wrong people Des. Yes the apat community/regs will all agree there is a better personalized service and a better community. Thing is most of these people will turn up and play anyway (myself included). None of us are going to complain about a fiver. As Joe said the costs of the weekends dwarf this and the reason we are all prepared to pay this is that we see it as a weekend away with mates, a few beers a really great poker tournament and side event and some general R&R.
However I don"t think the above actually markets too well in the poker community if the goal is to attract new players (maybe I am wrong). What people are looking for is a good value well run tournament which APAT already has, the LPPL is a great tool for marketing this imo. I still think it is fine as an optional extra but is something that will be used by the community at certain events. Not something that will attract more new players to apat.
As this is something that will appeal more to the community then maybe something along the line of what Stu suggested is a better approach? Maybe an annual fee that allows certain benefits including reserving a limited amount of seats each year. Although to be honest I can"t think of what else could be added?
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Personally, I miss the days of the click fests, Saturday morning gone with 3 laptops setup and a mobile phone all trying to get a ticket for Anna for One Direction brought back some happy memories. F5.. F5...F5... Goooooooo!!!!.. copy and paste credit card details from notepad and pray :)
Anyway.. from what I can see the charge is optional, so if you don"t want to use the reservation service and take your luck at the casino then you can.
Using the above facility I"m going to guess that it"ll be possible to see a running total of "seats sold so far / seats available" and which events are looking at selling out and will I"m sure cause more seats to be sold and sell out quicker. If its on the home page. Even better....
The final thing I would say now is don"t underestimate the important of having a clear message on the home page with an instant call to action. "Buy Now". How difficult is it to buy a seat to an APAT event if you"re a new player? Very difficult in my opinion. If we go down this route then I believe for recreational players, it becomes easier to get a seat with APAT than with any other tour nationwide.
This is a very good point, any method of making seats easier to get has got to be the way forward. I think the current way of doing it through the forum isnt easy at all.
All gets a thumbs up from me x
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My view is that £75 is an absolute steal for such a well organised and structured event. Plus you get to meet lots of great people (looking forward to GX tomorrow!).
Adding £5 to this cost for a guaranteed seat and to give APAT, who, I assume, do silly amounts of work behind the scenes, is a price very well worth paying.
Also, whenever I get the chance to play an event, travel and hotels bills dwarf this £5 charge.
This echoes my opinion .. paying what essentially is the price of a pint to secure my seat a few times a year seems a fair price.. If it helps APAT absorbs costs down the line and helps APAT to continue to run as it has over the past seasons all good..
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Can"t see a problem with it to be honest, happy to pay a fiver to reserve my seat as I don"t play in many of these due to the travelling so the chance to guarantee myself a seat in the tournaments I want to play in is more than welcome!!
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Maybe if I chew this idea over for longer I might change my mind, but I tend to agree with those who say that this doesn"t have the right APAT "feel" to it. It feels too similar to the way that Ticketmaster charge you a £5 "delivery" charge so that you can print your own concert tickets off at home, or the way the budget airlines find innovative ways to add to their overall charges.
When there was a long debate about whether the APAT faithful would be prepared to pay reg fees, I instantly agreed. Then came the charge for team shirts at ECOAP and WCOAP. Now we potentially have a "seat reservation fee", I"m already wondering what next year"s fee will be.
We all know that money is tight and it"s a very competitive market, but several people have already suggested alternative methods of raising revenue in this thread. To add my own suggestion, I don"t think that the potential of APAT's range of merchandise has been fully exploited. Tee shirts, polo shirts, hoodies, etc - why not turn a profit whilst turning customers into walking advertisements for the APAT brand ? I realise that there is also the administrative burden of the existing seat reservation system and it"s not all about the money, but it just feels like it.
At the end of the day it"s only a fiver and of course I"ll pay it, but the only worthwhile feedback is honest feedback right ?
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Maybe if I chew this idea over for longer I might change my mind, but I tend to agree with those who say that this doesn"t have the right APAT "feel" to it.
I know what you mean and, in general, I tend to agree.
However, APAT is evolving and, thus, the feel is going to have to change. Are we moving towards other tours/organisations...probably but that"s just a reaction to the market we APAT are in.
Times..they are a"changin and APAT should / has to adapt.
I"m not sure there is an ideal solution. I do think that the "membership" option is probably the optimal solution but that has it"s own admin issues.
I agree that the merchandising of APAT (clothing, etc) could be improved, perhaps by way of an e-commerce plug-in for the site but, again, that would, no doubt have it"s own issues.
It must be remembered that the APAT core team is limited to 3-4 people all of whom have "day jobs". They can"t be "All APAT - All The Time".
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I"d happily pay a higher non-refundable booking fee that is either forfeited or used as part payment for a seat.
People will then think twice about committing to events they don"t know yet if they can make.
Suggest £20.
It doesn"t generate any revenue if everyone turns up, and so maybe doesn"t solve any problems. But I"m sure no revenue would be rare.
Similarly, I also think using a poker client with a tiny buy-in as a reservation system could work. It is after all self-administering. With clever setting of when you can and can"t unregister you are able to estimate interest and also commit people beyond a certain point. If the price was a quid "to cover admin" I think it would be more likely to succeed than the proposed £5 would. Is £1 enough and does using a poker client cut out enough of the admin?
At the end of the day any random player is not going to travel too far if they can"t be sure of a seat when they get there. There"s no doubt that seasoned APATers would pay the proposed fiver, and some would probably pay £50, but they"re already "in the bag". The message of £75+12.50 this gives to the random player is not good IMO.
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Also if you don"t reserve and want to buy in at the venue
Will you be able to buy in before the actual event? Or would it have to be on the day?
If you can buy in before the day then it forces people to pay the money to reserve (if they"re not close enough to the venue to make it in person beforehand)
But if you can only buy in on the day then it means you"re suggesting people will have to pay for travel and hotel without having a guaranteed seat - the £5 may be nominally optional but it seems like a great deal of the time in practice it"s going to be mandatory to warrant the other expenditure needed.
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1. The administration of managing and amending player lists right up to the event taking place - this is largely driven by cancellations, which ran to about 20% at the recent WCOAP.
2. The lack of seat availability for new players, who may not be aware of our initial on sale dates - this is because seats tend to get reserved quickly, and new players do not often come back to see whether those seats have become available at a later date due to cancellations.
Rather than a £5 booking fee in addition, what about a £5 deposit, that you lose if you cancel but is counted as part-payment when you pay the balance?
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Or the reg fee + pound for processing costs? The reg fee u then don"t pay at the casino. If u don"t play u lose ur reg fee
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It"s great that options outside the box are being thought of but a big part of the issue is the transmission of funds to the casino (as Des mentioned).
All of these "part payment" options don"t take that into account.
I kind of like the reservation payment via the poker client idea though...that has possibilities.
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It"s great that options outside the box are being thought of but a big part of the issue is the transmission of funds to the casino (as Des mentioned).
All of these "part payment" options don"t take that into account.
If we play online satellites then money always has to be transferred to the casino. The question is how much "tagging on" of more funds makes this process unworkable?
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I"m still in the office so not able to fully comment back on this guys, but thanks for all the suggestions. Providing alternative suggestions and ideas is always an ask, but plenty of ideas have been put across above - so thanks for those.
The ideal scenario for APAT:-
1) Keep the events open online until the last possible moment, ideally the evening before the event.
2) Offer the events with the shortest possible journey between becoming aware of them (on the home page) and committing to play - ie, don"t ask new players to wade through a 20 page thread and then have to download software etc, find a tournament tab, deposit funds, etc etc etc!
3) Remove as much of the admin as we can to enable us to get on with some more important stuff for the tour.
4) Avoid getting hit with charges from payment providers or currency transactions
5) Generate revenue for APAT.
Unfortunately the ideal scenario isn"t possible, so we"ll do the best we can with the menu of items above.
Keep the feedback coming please - but keep the above in mind!
A fiver for the best idea that"s put into operation.... ;)
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I don"t think I like this idea at all. Whilst it may satisfy the APAT hardcore in that they can guarantee seats in what are usually highly popular tournaments, I can only see it being detrimental to growth. If I was looking at a tour that I hadn"t played before, and found one that was offering decent tourneys with 10% rake, and wanted to charge additional fees on top for the pleasure of reserving a seat, I suspect I would just go elsewhere and find an alternative (unlike five years ago, there are plenty of alternatives nowadays)
Once upon a time, APAT had the affordable deepstack market cornered - I don"t believe that"s the case any more. Being innovate with formats is what will keep the product fresh and highly marketable... not adding costs in what is a very delicate market (APAT is targetted at the Amateur player, and most Amateur players won"t have healthy bankrolls where £5 is inconsequential).
When the 10% rake was added to APAT tourneys, part of the special feel of APAT was removed. I fully understand and support the need for the rake in an ever changing climate where competition for poker (and sponsorship) has massively increased..... but APAT lost it"s ability to claim juice free poker. I think adding fees for the benefit of advance booking is a step too far in the other direction.
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I don"t think I like this idea at all. Whilst it may satisfy the APAT hardcore in that they can guarantee seats in what are usually highly popular tournaments, I can only see it being detrimental to growth. If I was looking at a tour that I hadn"t played before, and found one that was offering decent tourneys with 10% rake, and wanted to charge additional fees on top for the pleasure of reserving a seat, I suspect I would just go elsewhere and find an alternative (unlike five years ago, there are plenty of alternatives nowadays)
Once upon a time, APAT had the affordable deepstack market cornered - I don"t believe that"s the case any more. Being innovate with formats is what will keep the product fresh and highly marketable... not adding costs in what is a very delicate market (APAT is targetted at the Amateur player, and most Amateur players won"t have healthy bankrolls where £5 is inconsequential).
When the 10% rake was added to APAT tourneys, part of the special feel of APAT was removed. I fully understand and support the need for the rake in an ever changing climate where competition for poker (and sponsorship) has massively increased..... but APAT lost it"s ability to claim juice free poker. I think adding fees for the benefit of advance booking is a step too far in the other direction.
I wrote and rewrote several posts in attempted to be more constructive than my last post (the £75 + £7.50 + £5 one) but I failed. The post above was just about exactly what I was trying to say.
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Tend to agree with last few posters and really don"t like the idea, as I believe paying another fiver on top of reg fee will put off most new and even a lot of existing players. It has the potential to destroy the big fields that APAT has always previously been able to achieve upto now.
I prefer the idea of buying in on the poker client for a small fee ( say the £7.50 reg fee ) upto the night before and then pay the remainder at the casino on the day.
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I have to say that I don"t like the feel of this either.
As has been said, it"s usually "the earlier you book, the cheaper it is", (i.e. hotels, holidays, season tickets etc...), and to the outsider it might look like a bit of a rip-off (obv. we regulars know it isn"t) as they will rightly point out that all poker companies, and all other companies in fact, have running costs for admin., and they don"t charge a fee.
Is there any reason why we cant send the "reservation" money, say £20 to make it worthwhile, to the casino by bank transfer, rather than send it to APAT? Most of us will have on-line banking I guess. We just pay the balance on the day. If you are a "no show" then the casino gets the extra. This might incentivise them to set the system up.The admin costs then lie with them rather than APAT.
That way they would bear the costs of "moving the money" in whatever way they needed too, and we would just pay the same amount on bank charges, if any, as we would if we were paying APAT.
Des" points were:-
The ideal scenario for APAT:-
1) Keep the events open online until the last possible moment, ideally the evening before the event.
2) Offer the events with the shortest possible journey between becoming aware of them (on the home page) and committing to play - ie, don"t ask new players to wade through a 20 page thread and then have to download software etc, find a tournament tab, deposit funds, etc etc etc!
3) Remove as much of the admin as we can to enable us to get on with some more important stuff for the tour.
4) Avoid getting hit with charges from payment providers or currency transactions
5) Generate revenue for APAT.
Points 1-4 would seem to be covered although point 5 would not be.
1) The casino knows how many runners they have registered at any time.
2) The "Pay Now" button would simply need to show how to make the reservation payment. i.e. account number, sort code etc....
3 and 4) It would appear to do this.
5) to be addressed.
or is this too easy?
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As has been said, it"s usually "the earlier you book, the cheaper it is", (i.e. hotels, holidays, season tickets etc...)
Rich.
As I pointed out this isn"t a proper comparison.
All of those other places require you to pay the full amount up front...APAT isn"t suggesting that and, apparently, there are considerable costs (one way or another) in doing it that way.
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As has been said, it"s usually "the earlier you book, the cheaper it is", (i.e. hotels, holidays, season tickets etc...)
Rich.
As I pointed out this isn"t a proper comparison.
All of those other places require you to pay the full amount up front...APAT isn"t suggesting that and, apparently, there are considerable costs (one way or another) in doing it that way.
Paulie you have said this a couple of times now but I"m sorry it"s just not true. I have booked many hotels and holidays where I don"t pay up front and have the option of canceling (at a price) if things change.
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As has been said, it"s usually "the earlier you book, the cheaper it is", (i.e. hotels, holidays, season tickets etc...)
Rich.
As I pointed out this isn"t a proper comparison.
All of those other places require you to pay the full amount up front...APAT isn"t suggesting that and, apparently, there are considerable costs (one way or another) in doing it that way.
Then why don"t we just pay the £82.50 straight away, direct to the casino. If you can"t make it, last minute, simply sell your seat on the seat exchange and notify the casino accordingly, as was the case before.
All of the monies end up at the casino anyhow.
I also note that almost all of the venues we use i.e. Genting, DTD, G, Grosvenor etc all have online poker sites. Is there any reason why they can"t set up a holding tank and we just register/un-register there?
Each event can then be promoted separately on Apat with the "Buy Now" button taking you straight to the site. As most people play live and online, it if fair to assume that almost all will be familiar with most online sites.
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Then why don"t we just pay the £82.50 straight away, direct to the casino. If you can"t make it, last minute, simply sell your seat on the seat exchange and notify the casino accordingly, as was the case before.
All of the monies end up at the casino anyhow.
This is the ideal solution, of course.
I also note that almost all of the venues we use i.e. Genting, DTD, G, Grosvenor etc all have online poker sites. Is there any reason why they can"t set up a holding tank and we just register/un-register there?
Each event can then be promoted separately on Apat with the "Buy Now" button taking you straight to the site. As most people play live and online, it if fair to assume that almost all will be familiar with most online sites.
Only downside is the faff of having multiple poker clients installed and funding them but as you say, this might not be a hassle for many.
Just for my education, how do Genting, G etc. manage their tour buy-ins? Do they just swallow the transaction fees or do they do something different?
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Then why don"t we just pay the £82.50 straight away, direct to the casino. If you can"t make it, last minute, simply sell your seat on the seat exchange and notify the casino accordingly, as was the case before.
All of the monies end up at the casino anyhow.
This is the ideal solution, of course.
I also note that almost all of the venues we use i.e. Genting, DTD, G, Grosvenor etc all have online poker sites. Is there any reason why they can"t set up a holding tank and we just register/un-register there?
Each event can then be promoted separately on Apat with the "Buy Now" button taking you straight to the site. As most people play live and online, it if fair to assume that almost all will be familiar with most online sites.
Only downside is the faff of having multiple poker clients installed and funding them but as you say, this might not be a hassle for many.
Just for my education, how do Genting, G etc. manage their tour buy-ins? Do they just swallow the transaction fees or do they do something different?
Whenever I have bought in, it"s been the buy in plus reg fee and that"s it.
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Thought I would throw this idea into the mix. You have a full membership say £25 per year, an associate membership say £10 per year. Seats would go on sale on say a Monday to full members, Wednesday to associate members, and then on the Friday, and until seats sell out they go on general sale with no booking fee. Seats are paid for in full at the time of booking with people who find they cannot attend, able to sell them on the seat exchange or lose their money.
This way the people who want to make a commitment to Apat and who tend to play the most tournaments get first dibs, followed by the people who only play say 2 or 3 times a year followed by anyone who wishes to play that particular tournament because it is local to them or it is their national tournament etc etc.
This way newcomers will not be put off by paying an extra £5 and once they realise what Apat is about may be encouraged to take up one of the memberships, thus giving Apat a regular income stream.
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As has been said, it"s usually "the earlier you book, the cheaper it is", (i.e. hotels, holidays, season tickets etc...)
Rich.
As I pointed out this isn"t a proper comparison.
All of those other places require you to pay the full amount up front...APAT isn"t suggesting that and, apparently, there are considerable costs (one way or another) in doing it that way.
Paulie you have said this a couple of times now but I"m sorry it"s just not true. I have booked many hotels and holidays where I don"t pay up front and have the option of canceling (at a price) if things change.
I don"t know of any hotel, airline etc. that will let me pay a tiny fee and GUARANTEE me a room, seat etc. with an option NOT to pay if I don"t turn up.
Many hotels will offer a reduced charge for a non-refundable booking but this isn"t an option here. There is a known FIXED cost (£82.50) and APAT can"t reduce that for early buy-in.
Apples & Oranges.
APAT are offering a unique (AFAIK) "service" here, a guaranteed seat reservation without full up-front payment.
Do I like having to pay the extra £5 a time...absolutely not and I recognise and understand the objections (some of which I agree with) but it looks something has to change.
I prefer the membership idea. If you make the perks at say a "Premium" Level a number of guaranteed seats (or even all of them) and, say, a small discount at the APAT shop etc. etc. I think a lot of regs would jump on board and people new to APAT could opt for lower levels.
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Just for my education, how do Genting, G etc. manage their tour buy-ins? Do they just swallow the transaction fees or do they do something different?
Whenever I have bought in, it"s been the buy in plus reg fee and that"s it.
Yeah, but do they do it through a poker client or online reg via a 3rd party etc.?
I assume the former?
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The membership idea probably needs a little more exploration - it"s far better than the £5 fee idea (in my humble opinion)...... however, creating tiered membership would only serve to confirm the clique nature of APAT that many people claim. And I also see it as a potential "put off" for anyone finding APAT for the first time....
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Paulie. Can I respectfully say that we really should hear a little less from you in responding to people"s points. I"m not convinced you have the inside track on these issues*, and from my own perspective it"s Des I"d like to hear the answers from since it is he that asked the questions. Many of us can work out for ourselves where the issues probably lie, but we need to hear it from the big dog himself.
Keep the ideas flowing people, there"s a small chance one of us will hit upon something Des hasn"t thought of!
*apologies if you do
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Just for my education, how do Genting, G etc. manage their tour buy-ins? Do they just swallow the transaction fees or do they do something different?
Whenever I have bought in, it"s been the buy in plus reg fee and that"s it.
Yeah, but do they do it through a poker client or online reg via a 3rd party etc.?
I assume the former?
you are correct in that assumption or YES ;D
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As has been said, it"s usually "the earlier you book, the cheaper it is", (i.e. hotels, holidays, season tickets etc...)
Rich.
As I pointed out this isn"t a proper comparison.
All of those other places require you to pay the full amount up front...APAT isn"t suggesting that and, apparently, there are considerable costs (one way or another) in doing it that way.
Paulie you have said this a couple of times now but I"m sorry it"s just not true. I have booked many hotels and holidays where I don"t pay up front and have the option of canceling (at a price) if things change.
I don"t know of any hotel, airline etc. that will let me pay a tiny fee and GUARANTEE me a room, seat etc. with an option NOT to pay if I don"t turn up.
Many hotels will offer a reduced charge for a non-refundable booking but this isn"t an option here. There is a known FIXED cost (£82.50) and APAT can"t reduce that for early buy-in.
Apples & Oranges.
APAT are offering a unique (AFAIK) "service" here, a guaranteed seat reservation without full up-front payment.
Do I like having to pay the extra £5 a time...absolutely not and I recognise and understand the objections (some of which I agree with) but it looks something has to change.
I prefer the membership idea. If you make the perks at say a "Premium" Level a number of guaranteed seats (or even all of them) and, say, a small discount at the APAT shop etc. etc. I think a lot of regs would jump on board and people new to APAT could opt for lower levels.
Well, and only as an example, Harrahs charge for one night when you make your initial reservation, and then you pay the balance when you get there. This is fully re-fundable if you cancel 24 hours in advance.
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Paulie. Can I respectfully say that we really should hear a little less from you in responding to people"s points. I"m not convinced you have the inside track on these issues*, and from my own perspective it"s Des I"d like to hear the answers from since it is he that asked the questions. Many of us can work out for ourselves where the issues probably lie, but we need to hear it from the big dog himself.
Keep the ideas flowing people, there"s a small chance one of us will hit upon something Des hasn"t thought of!
*apologies if you do
Can I go under the title BDawg now? Seems fashionable....
Paulie is actually doing a pretty good job of keeping the discussion going, and a lot of his responses are along the lines of what I would say - which isn"t always the case with Paulie! ;)
As I"ve said before, the key consideration is to keep the events on sale for as long as possible, because that"s in everyone"s interest. However, as soon as you add any online transactional element that includes making a payment to the casino, that adds two plus weeks of red tape and the events have to come offline. So for example "I"m happy to pay £5 but can it go towards my reg fee at the casino, and I"m happy to forfeit it if I can"t make the event?" A perfectly reasonable suggestion, but it means we"d have to get the money to the casino, cue the two week process.
It"s clear there"s quite a lot of mixed feelings towards the £5 reservation fee, which ultimately means APAT would not put the idea into practice.
We can look at introducing membership fees or some of the other ideas suggested if that approach is more palatable to players, and utilise that money to cover off the seat reservation merchandising fees. But ultimately we need to simply and cost efficiently allow players to get into the events. That"s the big picture here.
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If the reg fee was paid online to reserve a place for an event, could the player not pay full when he gets to the event but then have the reg then refunded at a later date/later event when it"s convenient for apat?
I"m sure this is a rediculous question but i"ll ask anyways
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I agree with all Steve"s points, amazingly ;) Not sure at all about a membership plan though.
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I"m not sure that the wider APAT family would go for a membership plan either. If one of the objectives is to reduce the administrative burden, surely the implementation and maintenance of such a plan would result in far more work than updating a forum seat reservation list once in a while ?
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Never thought I"d say this....... but what"s wrong with Clickfest?
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Des,
I had a thought during lunch (alcohol fuels my creative side) and am doing some research
I"ll PM you and Phil when I have a better grasp on it.
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Des,
I had a thought during lunch (alcohol fuels my creative side) and am doing some research
I"ll PM you and Phil when I have a better grasp on it.
Am I missing something? what is the point of this post? why not just PM them?
No need to answer - but feel free to delete this post.
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No need to answer - but feel free to delete this post.
I just like to keep you all aware that I haven"t gone away. :)
Did I mention that I"ve been drinking? :) :)
EDIT: Never mind...I think I"ve found what I was looking for.
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No need to answer - but feel free to delete this post.
I just like to keep you all aware that I haven"t gone away. :)
Did I mention that I"ve been drinking? :) :)
EDIT: Never mind...I think I"ve found what I was looking for.
Tell us the idea then. It might be something we all like and will work for APAT.
I had an idea once, can"t remember it though :-)
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No need to answer - but feel free to delete this post.
I just like to keep you all aware that I haven"t gone away. :)
Did I mention that I"ve been drinking? :) :)
EDIT: Never mind...I think I"ve found what I was looking for.
Tell us the idea then. It might be something we all like and will work for APAT.
I had an idea once, can"t remember it though :-)
Fair enough, it was an online event management system with registration / de-registration options.
It"s a plug-in for the Content Management System which is the basis for APAT.com.
It MIGHT be a solution to the list management administration issues but I"m not familiar enough with the CMS [WordPress] to see if it can be integrated easily (or at all) into the APAT site.
I think other people have mentioned some sort of automation and I happen to be part of another online community that covers this sort of thing.
This is purely a list management idea and doesn"t resolve other issues, such as possibly charging for the service (although it can handle that AFAIK) but that"s a "policy" matter for APAT to decide.
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The "Pay Now" link to all events on the APAT home page is a good idea. This cuts down admin time and would be a clear hassle free way to enter every Apat Event.
The problem is if it is introduced at £5 a time this could be costly for the players that are loyal to these events, the hardcore Apaters.
What about offering a one off "Season Ticket" payment (of maybe £10 ? ) that would enable a member to click this register button for as many Legs as they wish, for no extra charge.
The casual player or local player would pay £5 a time.
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We"ve had a disappointing situation here at Wembley, with only around 50 of the 80 odd players on the this morning"s reserve list turning up by kick off. Not good for our credibility with DTD I"m afraid, who had already allocated APAT the smallest pod as to quote one of the managers "we know what your players are like". I"d prefer if we had more options available, but I feel we"re being pushed into a corner on this with an outcome like today and we may well need you guys to work with us on this going forward.
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Maybe a system of fines for people who reserve and then cancel? If they fail to pay the fine, they lose their right to reserve in future. That way you"re not penalising everyone who turned up.
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We"ve had a disappointing situation here at Wembley, with only around 50 of the 80 odd players on the this morning"s reserve list turning up by kick off. Not good for our credibility with DTD I"m afraid, who had already allocated APAT the smallest pod as to quote one of the managers "we know what your players are like".
V. disappointing..especially the comment from anyone associated with DTD. That"s the one place where we need a good rep.
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If 80 odd players paid an additional non-redeemable fiver and 50 only turned up, would that make it less disappointing. In a highly competitive market like poker, is it a wise move to make a charge to put a lock on a seat. It may only be a fiver, but a casual player looking around for a game will think twice as to whether APAT offers the value as other games without the levy.
If you want to accurately know how many seats are taken revert back to a click-fest or take the money up front. Allowing players to cancel via the seat exchange or a simple unregister.
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We"ve had a disappointing situation here at Wembley, with only around 50 of the 80 odd players on the this morning"s reserve list turning up by kick off. Not good for our credibility with DTD I"m afraid, who had already allocated APAT the smallest pod as to quote one of the managers "we know what your players are like". I"d prefer if we had more options available, but I feel we"re being pushed into a corner on this with an outcome like today and we may well need you guys to work with us on this going forward.
FWIW It"s disappointing but for me, both this event & the main event was way out of my bankroll & expenses. It"s sad because it"s a great idea but surely this was aimed at the grass roots to create the volume & sadly the cost was not grassroots imo.
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We"ve had a disappointing situation here at Wembley, with only around 50 of the 80 odd players on the this morning"s reserve list turning up by kick off. Not good for our credibility with DTD I"m afraid, who had already allocated APAT the smallest pod as to quote one of the managers "we know what your players are like". I"d prefer if we had more options available, but I feel we"re being pushed into a corner on this with an outcome like today and we may well need you guys to work with us on this going forward.
FWIW It"s disappointing but for me, both this event & the main event was way out of my bankroll & expenses. It"s sad because it"s a great idea but surely this was aimed at the grass roots to create the volume & sadly the cost was not grassroots imo.
It was out of my bankroll also..... however I think Des" point is not that they struggled to get the numbers... it"s more to do with the fact that 80 people reserved seats on the thread, but then only 50 of them turned up on the day.........
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Whilst the system is people can reserve a seat by posting their name on a forum and then not turn up with no penalty at all then this is always going to happen, it is just the reality unfortunately. DTD are correct that this is not really an acceptable situation and will hurt APAT's credibility with the casino"s which is something that must not happen. You cannot tell venues that you will have 80 players turn up and then only have 50.
APAT therefore have to protect themselves and their customers and until something better is suggested I would say the reservation charge is the way to go to prevent this happening. I can"t really see a better solution,people are not obliged to use it but it would prevent this situation.
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Whilst the system is people can reserve a seat by posting their name on a forum and then not turn up with no penalty at all then this is always going to happen, it is just the reality unfortunately. DTD are correct that this is not really an acceptable situation and will hurt APAT's credibility with the casino"s which is something that must not happen. You cannot tell venues that you will have 80 players turn up and then only have 50.
APAT therefore have to protect themselves and their customers and until something better is suggested I would say the reservation charge is the way to go to prevent this happening. I can"t really see a better solution,people are not obliged to use it but it would prevent this situation.
Obviously something needs to change - I don"t think anyone suggests otherwise...... however, I think the feeling is generally against charging a fee. I would be happy to make a commitment ahead of time when reserving a seat, but believe that this should be a deposit (non refundable).... so if it"s a £5 charge, that needs to then be discounted from the final price.
I suspect that new players looking for their first steps on the tour would be far more amenable to paying a deposit as opposed to have to pay an additional fee.
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Very disappointing I agree, but why was this such a high buy in? I am sure regular APATers would have loved the chance to be part of this fantastic occasion, and made it a sell out.
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Very disappointing I agree, but why was this such a high buy in? I am sure regular APATers would have loved the chance to be part of this fantastic occasion, and made it a sell out.
Very much agree with this. No way our house could afford two buy ins at yesterday"s level so didn"t even consider it. However, if it had been normal APAT buy in, we"d have struggled to miss such a special occasion.
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We"ve had a disappointing situation here at Wembley, with only around 50 of the 80 odd players on the this morning"s reserve list turning up by kick off. Not good for our credibility with DTD I"m afraid, who had already allocated APAT the smallest pod as to quote one of the managers "we know what your players are like". I"d prefer if we had more options available, but I feel we"re being pushed into a corner on this with an outcome like today and we may well need you guys to work with us on this going forward.
FWIW It"s disappointing but for me, both this event & the main event was way out of my bankroll & expenses. It"s sad because it"s a great idea but surely this was aimed at the grass roots to create the volume & sadly the cost was not grassroots imo.
It was out of my bankroll also..... however I think Des" point is not that they struggled to get the numbers... it"s more to do with the fact that 80 people reserved seats on the thread, but then only 50 of them turned up on the day.........
Correct, I"m definitely not disappointed with the numbers overall...the prize pool is larger than a typical 200 runner APAT, my concern was more that people who had a change of heart or plans, could have taken their name off the reserve list by Friday night. That would have enabled us to know where we are and communicate accurately to DTD. As it were, they weren"t confident enough to give us anything other than the smallest pod on the field and as we approached the event start they were asking questions about where the additional 30 players were and we were left scratching our heads. Not that comfortable a position to be in.
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Whilst the system is people can reserve a seat by posting their name on a forum and then not turn up with no penalty at all then this is always going to happen, it is just the reality unfortunately. DTD are correct that this is not really an acceptable situation and will hurt APAT's credibility with the casino"s which is something that must not happen. You cannot tell venues that you will have 80 players turn up and then only have 50.
APAT therefore have to protect themselves and their customers and until something better is suggested I would say the reservation charge is the way to go to prevent this happening. I can"t really see a better solution,people are not obliged to use it but it would prevent this situation.
Obviously something needs to change - I don"t think anyone suggests otherwise...... however, I think the feeling is generally against charging a fee. I would be happy to make a commitment ahead of time when reserving a seat, but believe that this should be a deposit (non refundable).... so if it"s a £5 charge, that needs to then be discounted from the final price.
I suspect that new players looking for their first steps on the tour would be far more amenable to paying a deposit as opposed to have to pay an additional fee.
Your suggestion means the £5 would need to be forwarded to the casino Steve, and that would need to happen two weeks before kick off and the event taken off sale at that point.
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Very disappointing I agree, but why was this such a high buy in? I am sure regular APATers would have loved the chance to be part of this fantastic occasion, and made it a sell out.
Very much agree with this. No way our house could afford two buy ins at yesterday"s level so didn"t even consider it. However, if it had been normal APAT buy in, we"d have struggled to miss such a special occasion.
We couldn"t have held the event with the typical APAT buy in...the option wasn"t there. As it is we have the cheapest event of the 15 at Wembley and we worked very hard to get the two prime days of Saturday and Sunday. However we knew the buy in would be out of the range of many of the members but still felt it important to be here for all sorts of reasons. We also knew that a percentage of our players would be interested in playing at the higher buy in, as has been seen here and at DTD. However, we"ve also added the next APAT event in the same month, possibly a first for separate Championships, as we wanted everyone to have an event available at the start of season seven. If it had been possible however, we would definitely have run this event with the standard APAT buy in.
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Had an interesting chat with Rob Yong whilst standing in the queue to buy-into the event yesterday. He said he couldn"t understand why they hadn"t just put an entry holding tank on their poker site and we all just bought in there, which is pretty much what I had suggested as an option earlier on here.
Seems it is do-able from their point of view.
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Maybe a system of fines for people who reserve and then cancel? If they fail to pay the fine, they lose their right to reserve in future. That way you"re not penalising everyone who turned up.
I just don"t think this works Dawn. Can you imagine the team and I starting off next week by chasing down 30 players to pay a fine? We"d become a police state overnight and that"s the last thing we want.
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It seems to me that while everyone is beginning to understand our wish to keep the events on sale for as long as possible, and our wish to cut down on the administration and to add a light commitment factor; player concern surrounds the need to pay an extra £5.
Has anyone considered that being able to book an event several months in advance would enable you to make a far greater saving in advance hotel and travel costs?
Now I appreciate a fiver is an additional cost for everyone, but that"s the cost of a sandwich or the Sunday newspapers or the booking fee to many shows or sporting events. We have to rank equal to at least one of those experiences in your lives surely? I"m beginning to think not and that saddens me.
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Had an interesting chat with Rob Yong whilst standing in the queue to buy-into the event yesterday. He said he couldn"t understand why they hadn"t just put an entry holding tank on their poker site and we all just bought in there, which is pretty much what I had suggested as an option earlier on here.
Seems it is do-able from their point of view.
Rob said the same thing to me yesterday Rich, but it was the furthest thing from his mind two days, weeks or months ago.
While this might be an option in some circumstances, those will be extremely rare. And it brings with it the potential for lots of other business conflicts. So it really isn"t as straight forward as it may appear.
Can I just clarify on one other question that was raised a couple of days ago back in the thread. Using DTD as an example, if players were reserving seats for a number of WCOAP events for example, they would only be charged one reservation fee. If they are at the venue we know players are very much more likely to play the events they have reserved.
This isn"t about money for APAT, it"s about ensuring we operate as efficiently as possible.
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While the post mortem is understandable I cant help but feel that this event was not your typical Apat offering.
Firstly we had the tainted ISPT history, we also had a considerable increase in buy in, combined, these factors were somewhat of a disincentive.
As for the £5 booking charge, I think it"s a great idea and carries lots of implied odds, I"m pretty sure if implemented it will enable me to make a decent profit on reduced hotel and travel costs.
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It seems to me that while everyone is beginning to understand our wish to keep the events on sale for as long as possible, and our wish to cut down on the administration and to add a light commitment factor; player concern surrounds the need to pay an extra £5.
Has anyone considered that being able to book an event several months in advance would enable you to make a far greater saving in advance hotel and travel costs?
Now I appreciate a fiver is an additional cost for everyone, but that"s the cost of a sandwich or the Sunday newspapers or the booking fee to many shows or sporting events. We have to rank equal to at least one of those experiences in your lives surely? I"m beginning to think not and that saddens me.
Perhaps yes for the rank and file APAT member..... but I still see it as a turn-off for the potential new members.
When I"m playing APAT events, I often have locals asking me what it"s about, and I do my best to give the hard sell. I always direct them to apat.com and the forum. If they arrive there looking for the next stop on the tour and are invited to pay an additional fiver on top of their 10% reg fee, I suspect that would be an immediate turn-off for many - they would simply draw comparison to their local tourney where they don"t have to spend extra. OK they don"t need to reserve a seat and can take their chances on availability, however with the thought in their head already, the turn-off will be out there....
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Perhaps yes for the rank and file APAT member..... but I still see it as a turn-off for the potential new members.
When I"m playing APAT events, I often have locals asking me what it"s about, and I do my best to give the hard sell. I always direct them to apat.com and the forum. If they arrive there looking for the next stop on the tour and are invited to pay an additional fiver on top of their 10% reg fee, I suspect that would be an immediate turn-off for many - they would simply draw comparison to their local tourney where they don"t have to spend extra. OK they don"t need to reserve a seat and can take their chances on availability, however with the thought in their head already, the turn-off will be out there....
I think you underestimate the value of a guaranteed seat tbh Steve.
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It seems to me that while everyone is beginning to understand our wish to keep the events on sale for as long as possible, and our wish to cut down on the administration and to add a light commitment factor; player concern surrounds the need to pay an extra £5.
Has anyone considered that being able to book an event several months in advance would enable you to make a far greater saving in advance hotel and travel costs?
Now I appreciate a fiver is an additional cost for everyone, but that"s the cost of a sandwich or the Sunday newspapers or the booking fee to many shows or sporting events. We have to rank equal to at least one of those experiences in your lives surely? I"m beginning to think not and that saddens me.
Perhaps yes for the rank and file APAT member..... but I still see it as a turn-off for the potential new members.
When I"m playing APAT events, I often have locals asking me what it"s about, and I do my best to give the hard sell. I always direct them to apat.com and the forum. If they arrive there looking for the next stop on the tour and are invited to pay an additional fiver on top of their 10% reg fee, I suspect that would be an immediate turn-off for many - they would simply draw comparison to their local tourney where they don"t have to spend extra. OK they don"t need to reserve a seat and can take their chances on availability, however with the thought in their head already, the turn-off will be out there....
You think they would be accepting of the transport and accomodation fees required to travel and play in a £75 event - as we all are, but not the £5 to book their seat in advance? Really Steve? ???
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It seems to me that while everyone is beginning to understand our wish to keep the events on sale for as long as possible, and our wish to cut down on the administration and to add a light commitment factor; player concern surrounds the need to pay an extra £5.
Has anyone considered that being able to book an event several months in advance would enable you to make a far greater saving in advance hotel and travel costs?
Now I appreciate a fiver is an additional cost for everyone, but that"s the cost of a sandwich or the Sunday newspapers or the booking fee to many shows or sporting events. We have to rank equal to at least one of those experiences in your lives surely? I"m beginning to think not and that saddens me.
Perhaps yes for the rank and file APAT member..... but I still see it as a turn-off for the potential new members.
When I"m playing APAT events, I often have locals asking me what it"s about, and I do my best to give the hard sell. I always direct them to apat.com and the forum. If they arrive there looking for the next stop on the tour and are invited to pay an additional fiver on top of their 10% reg fee, I suspect that would be an immediate turn-off for many - they would simply draw comparison to their local tourney where they don"t have to spend extra. OK they don"t need to reserve a seat and can take their chances on availability, however with the thought in their head already, the turn-off will be out there....
You think they would be accepting of the transport and accomodation fees required to travel and play in a £75 event - as we all are, but not the £5 to book their seat in advance? Really Steve? ???
Is it not more likely that newcomers might get introduced to the tour through their local venue, at which they wouldn"t have travel and accommodation costs though....
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Is it not more likely that newcomers might get introduced to the tour through their local venue, at which they wouldn"t have travel and accommodation costs though....
True but they can buy in locally from the seats allocated to the venue...so they wouldn"t need to reserve at all.
Or have I misunderstood?
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Is it not more likely that newcomers might get introduced to the tour through their local venue, at which they wouldn"t have travel and accommodation costs though....
Of the potential new player market, would many even have a local event?
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It seems to me that while everyone is beginning to understand our wish to keep the events on sale for as long as possible, and our wish to cut down on the administration and to add a light commitment factor; player concern surrounds the need to pay an extra £5.
Has anyone considered that being able to book an event several months in advance would enable you to make a far greater saving in advance hotel and travel costs?
Now I appreciate a fiver is an additional cost for everyone, but that"s the cost of a sandwich or the Sunday newspapers or the booking fee to many shows or sporting events. We have to rank equal to at least one of those experiences in your lives surely? I"m beginning to think not and that saddens me.
Perhaps yes for the rank and file APAT member..... but I still see it as a turn-off for the potential new members.
When I"m playing APAT events, I often have locals asking me what it"s about, and I do my best to give the hard sell. I always direct them to apat.com and the forum. If they arrive there looking for the next stop on the tour and are invited to pay an additional fiver on top of their 10% reg fee, I suspect that would be an immediate turn-off for many - they would simply draw comparison to their local tourney where they don"t have to spend extra. OK they don"t need to reserve a seat and can take their chances on availability, however with the thought in their head already, the turn-off will be out there....
You think they would be accepting of the transport and accomodation fees required to travel and play in a £75 event - as we all are, but not the £5 to book their seat in advance? Really Steve? ???
If the transport and accommodation costs hadn"t gone through the roof in the last couple of years anyway then I think you may have more people in favour. We understand that APAT is working on a budget but you have to appreciate that we are too.
I recall in the S6 discussion you were worried about APAT losing its USP with the loss of the reg free game, well as someone said earlier on in the thread you are looking at gaining a new one. In little over a year we are going from a game with no reg fee to a game with two.
I can see that fining people who don"t turn up having reserved a seat is never going to work, but how about not letting them use the facility of reserving a seat for a couple of games if they"ve let you down previously.
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It seems to me that while everyone is beginning to understand our wish to keep the events on sale for as long as possible, and our wish to cut down on the administration and to add a light commitment factor; player concern surrounds the need to pay an extra £5.
Has anyone considered that being able to book an event several months in advance would enable you to make a far greater saving in advance hotel and travel costs?
Now I appreciate a fiver is an additional cost for everyone, but that"s the cost of a sandwich or the Sunday newspapers or the booking fee to many shows or sporting events. We have to rank equal to at least one of those experiences in your lives surely? I"m beginning to think not and that saddens me.
Perhaps yes for the rank and file APAT member..... but I still see it as a turn-off for the potential new members.
When I"m playing APAT events, I often have locals asking me what it"s about, and I do my best to give the hard sell. I always direct them to apat.com and the forum. If they arrive there looking for the next stop on the tour and are invited to pay an additional fiver on top of their 10% reg fee, I suspect that would be an immediate turn-off for many - they would simply draw comparison to their local tourney where they don"t have to spend extra. OK they don"t need to reserve a seat and can take their chances on availability, however with the thought in their head already, the turn-off will be out there....
You think they would be accepting of the transport and accomodation fees required to travel and play in a £75 event - as we all are, but not the £5 to book their seat in advance? Really Steve? ???
Even ignoring the local players, the simple answer is - no.
As has already been said, players will see it as an additional reg fee and it will make it "too expensive".
I"m guessing that the most likely outcome is that APAT regulars who are definitely playing will pay the fee. This will leave spare capacity for locals but reduce overall demand.
What about being able to pay a larger deposit up until 2 weeks beforehand followed by some kind of looser reservation system?
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Are there any players that are currently against the £5 fee idea, be in favour of a one-off payment at the beginning of the Season of say £10-£12 to guarantee a seat for every leg of that Season?
The "buy now" button can still be in place for those that choose to book on a leg by leg basis.
Don"t forget there is always the option to not reserve a seat at all, and just turn up on the day to play, this will incur no fees at all.
This would make three options, with the regular Apat multi Leg players getting a good deal paying up front (like a football supporter"s Season Ticket)
I suppose a drawback to this system would be that some season ticket holders would have some venues that they have no intention of playing at. They would have to inform Apat in advance of their non attendance.
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Now I appreciate a fiver is an additional cost for everyone, but that"s the cost of a sandwich or the Sunday newspapers or the booking fee to many shows or sporting events. We have to rank equal to at least one of those experiences in your lives surely? I"m beginning to think not and that saddens me.
Des, you aren"t comparing like for like here. The APAT "experience" doesn"t cost £5, like that of a sandwich. A fairer comparision would be asking if I would pay 50p in advance to ensure the sandwich of my choice was available when I got there.
No one here is saying the APAT experience is not good value, we all agree it is.
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Okay, there was a poor turn out for the APAT tournament at Wembley, how many of those no shows were none APAT regulars, I would hazard a guess that they were the majority. How many no shows do we get at regular APAT events, not many, and the players that pull out usually let Des, Leigh etc know they can"t make it, am I right?
So why not add the seat reservation cost into the buy in ( I am sure this has already been mentioned) but make it a sum that is chunky enough to raise funds for APAT if there is a no show, and enough to deter the "I can"t be bothered" no show. If some one cant make it and sells their seat on then no foul. I would make it £20 out of the buy in. Just my two pennorth.
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I was paying £6 a pint of Guinness at Wembley. Although I can see both sides of the argument. Personally I think people really need to get a grip on reality of what a fiver gets you in todays world x
Other things you can get for a fiver include :
"I can make your pet photo talk" :
http://www.fivesquids.co.uk/Fun-Bizarre/7065/make-your-pet-photo-talk
"I will get my lizard to write messages of your choice for £5"
http://www.fivesquids.co.uk/Fun-Bizarre/26036/get-my-lizard-to-write-messages-of-your-choice
"I will freak people out with my unusual eyes for £5"
http://www.fivesquids.co.uk/Fun-Bizarre/23323/freak-people-out-with-my-unusual-eyes
An optional fiver to secure a seat OR watching someone with wonky eyes. No brainer x
I would make it £20 out of the buy in. Just my two pennorth.
Agree with Mikey x
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It really doesn"t matter how many of the no shows were APAT regulars (I would assume none) the situation is that there were 30 eople who reserved a seat and did not turn up.
It does seem like we a looking for a perfect solution that does not exist here. People are suggesting putting the £5 as part of the buyin or getting people to pay the full buyin up front. Des has already explained that this would invovle transfering the money to the casino and bring with it all the admin issues and form filling along with the requiement to take the seats off sale about two weeks before the event.
The £5 charge may put new players off as well. People are saying it"s only £5 but if somebody is new to APAT it is an additional cost, although it is not one they HAVE to pay.
Not sure of the best solution, I would pay the £5 and not really worry about it but can see the concerns raised about attracting newer players.
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I would make it £20 out of the buy in. Just my two pennorth.
Agree with Mikey x
A lot of people have mentioned this idea but Des has mentioned that any figure that forms a part of the buy-in needs to be sent to the casino two weeks ahead of time and the registration closed...and as such seems to be a non-starter.
I don"t think there is a solution that will please everyone and certainly there are issues with every idea I"ve seen listed so far including the original suggestion.
They will either potentially dis-incentivise new members, add additional cost, not really reduce the admin, not stop the drop-outs, aren"t feasible or some combination of the above.
I don"t know what the answer is but I"m of the opinion that the £5 option is the "least worst" option...if we have to have one.
EDIT: I see Steve has just posted almost exactly the same thing while I was typing. :)
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Given that APAT has a Paypal account in place for the Staking arrangement, can we not utilise that?
Perhaps when reserving a seat, we send an amount (£5?) to APAT via Paypal, and if we turn up at the tournament, that £5 is shipped back after the event.... if we don"t turn up, it is retained.
Not sure how much admin that would invoke - is it possible to submit Paypal refunds in bulk?
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Given that APAT has a Paypal account in place for the Staking arrangement, can we not utilise that?
Perhaps when reserving a seat, we send an amount (£5?) to APAT via Paypal, and if we turn up at the tournament, that £5 is shipped back after the event.... if we don"t turn up, it is retained.
Not sure how much admin that would invoke - is it possible to submit Paypal refunds in bulk?
I think PayPal would charge 3.4% +20p on those transactions Steve but not 100% sure x
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They will either potentially dis-incentivise new members, add additional cost, not really reduce the admin, not stop the drop-outs, aren"t feasible or some combination of the above.
^ This
Studies have shown that a reg fee might actually make the situation worse as people feel they"ve paid for the right to drop out. http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~bowles/Forethought.pdf (http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~bowles/Forethought.pdf) gives an example of nurseries which started charging parents who were late picking up their kids. It resulted in more lateness as parents thought they were then paying for a service, rather than feeling a moral obligation to turn up on time.
Not sure what to suggest as an alternative though ...
Suggestion for pre-payment of tourney fees: As a lot of people use online banking now, could we just do direct transfers to the APAT bank account? There"d be no bank charges for anyone then (I think).
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Given that APAT has a Paypal account in place for the Staking arrangement, can we not utilise that?
Perhaps when reserving a seat, we send an amount (£5?) to APAT via Paypal, and if we turn up at the tournament, that £5 is shipped back after the event.... if we don"t turn up, it is retained.
Not sure how much admin that would invoke - is it possible to submit Paypal refunds in bulk?
I think PayPal would charge 3.4% +20p on those transactions Steve but not 100% sure x
I have a feeling the charges only apply when you withdraw the money from Paypal.... I believe that if you leave inbound transfers in your Paypal account, then outbound transfer them at a later date, there is no charge. I may be wrong though.
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Given that APAT has a Paypal account in place for the Staking arrangement, can we not utilise that?
Perhaps when reserving a seat, we send an amount (£5?) to APAT via Paypal, and if we turn up at the tournament, that £5 is shipped back after the event.... if we don"t turn up, it is retained.
Not sure how much admin that would invoke - is it possible to submit Paypal refunds in bulk?
Surely there would be no need to refund anything if we just paid the casino £82.50 when we arrive, less the £5 already paid to APAT.
APAT then only need make one transfer of (max £1000 for a 200 runner event) whatever the amount is, and the casino have all the money. Any no-shows lose the deposit and the casino keeps their £5.
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Steve - PayPal charge for all transfers, but nevertheless, it"s very unlikely they would allow us to do this type of transaction. They don"t allow APAT to make seat sales via PayPal for example.
Jenny - We would review how any changes to entry policy work on an ongoing basis and amend accordingly. However given the ability to keep seats on sale up to the day of the event, I would be very surprised if the overall impact was negative.
Rich - Yes you would pay the £82.50 to the casino as normal. We would not be sending the reservation fee to the casino. That"s an APAT / merchandising fee.
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Given that APAT has a Paypal account in place for the Staking arrangement, can we not utilise that?
Perhaps when reserving a seat, we send an amount (£5?) to APAT via Paypal, and if we turn up at the tournament, that £5 is shipped back after the event.... if we don"t turn up, it is retained.
Not sure how much admin that would invoke - is it possible to submit Paypal refunds in bulk?
I think PayPal would charge 3.4% +20p on those transactions Steve but not 100% sure x
I have a feeling the charges only apply when you withdraw the money from Paypal.... I believe that if you leave inbound transfers in your Paypal account, then outbound transfer them at a later date, there is no charge. I may be wrong though.
There is a "refund" fee charged by PayPal Steve.. presume this would apply from the T"s&C"s, but without trawling through not 100% sure.
"Refund Fee. Section 8.5 (Additional Fees) is amended to add a new refund fee. If you refund a Purchase Payment, we will retain the Fixed Fee portion of the Purchase Payment Fee. The buyer's Account will be credited with the full Purchase Payment amount and the Fixed Fee portion of the Purchase Payment Fee will be deducted from your Account in addition to the amount of the refunded payment. The Fixed Fee will depend on the currency of the Purchase Payment and is listed in 8.4(c)."
Given that APAT has a Paypal account in place for the Staking arrangement, can we not utilise that?
Perhaps when reserving a seat, we send an amount (£5?) to APAT via Paypal, and if we turn up at the tournament, that £5 is shipped back after the event.... if we don"t turn up, it is retained.
Not sure how much admin that would invoke - is it possible to submit Paypal refunds in bulk?
Surely there would be no need to refund anything if we just paid the casino £82.50 when we arrive, less the £5 already paid to APAT.
APAT then only need make one transfer of (max £1000 for a 200 runner event) whatever the amount is, and the casino have all the money. Any no-shows lose the deposit and the casino keeps their £5.
APAT would have to pay the PayPal transaction fees on each £5 I think mate so actually makes them worse off x
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What about having a system of "three strikes and your out"?
If you reserve a seat and don"t show up for the event you receive a yellow card say you miss two you get red carded and have one more chance, reserve and miss another then your unable to reserve a seat, and have to rely on getting a seat at the casino on the day?..
Dunno if this is feasible with admin and tracking etc.. but a serious player would hate to say be sitting on a red card and the WCOAP comes along and they are one strike away from not being able to reserve a seat..
Say you reserve a seat and have to cancel you need to contact APAT within a specific time span..
Personally I am happy to pay the £5.. Or a one off season ticket membership
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Auction the seats on eBay.
Might not solve all the problems but if the regs get into a bidding war it would generate a nice income for APAT. ;)
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PayPal is free if you use your PayPal balance or your bank account linked to your PayPal account.
There is a charge of 3.4% + £0.20 if you fund a payment using a debit or credit card. You get a tick-box option regarding whether sender or receiver pays.
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What about having a system of "three strikes and your out"?
If you reserve a seat and don"t show up for the event you receive a yellow card say you miss two you get red carded and have one more chance, reserve and miss another then your unable to reserve a seat, and have to rely on getting a seat at the casino on the day?..
Dunno if this is feasible with admin and tracking etc.. but a serious player would hate to say be sitting on a red card and the WCOAP comes along and they are one strike away from not being able to reserve a seat..
Say you reserve a seat and have to cancel you need to contact APAT within a specific time span..
Personally I am happy to pay the £5.. Or a one off season ticket membership
Wouldn"t even need amber and red cards - just a case of if you don"t turn up for a tourney where you have reserved a seat, you lose the right to reserve again in current season. After all, it"s not difficult to take your name off a reservation list if you need to pull out - it"s just simple courtesy.
Regarding a season ticket - not sure how that would get people to honour a reservation they make.... if there is a fee, it has to be on a per reservation basis.
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Ive spent 20 mins reading all this thread, and it seems to be going round in circles tbh.
I class myself as a recreational player, and attend 2/3 APAT events where possible.
Happy to send £5 direct to APAT bank account ( no fees)
I then register interest in Coventry,
I turn up at Coventry.
I still have my £5 credit at APAT
I register interest in Event 2
I dont turn up and fail to unreg
I lose my £5 credit.
I pay £5 direct to APAT and I can reg for another event.
At the end of the season, APAT keep my fiver and I do it again next season.
Any good? Or have I missed the point as usual ?
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Ive spent 20 mins reading all this thread, and it seems to be going round in circles tbh.
I class myself as a recreational player, and attend 2/3 APAT events where possible.
Happy to send £5 direct to APAT bank account ( no fees)
I then register interest in Coventry,
I turn up at Coventry.
I still have my £5 credit at APAT
I register interest in Event 2
I dont turn up and fail to unreg
I lose my £5 credit.
I pay £5 direct to APAT and I can reg for another event.
At the end of the season, APAT keep my fiver and I do it again next season.
Any good? Or have I missed the point as usual ?
Mooch - you would pay a new £5 every time you want to reserve a seat in advance... so if you played 5 events in the season, and reserved a seat in advance for each of them, you would have paid total £25
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Ive spent 20 mins reading all this thread, and it seems to be going round in circles tbh.
I class myself as a recreational player, and attend 2/3 APAT events where possible.
Happy to send £5 direct to APAT bank account ( no fees)
I then register interest in Coventry,
I turn up at Coventry.
I still have my £5 credit at APAT
I register interest in Event 2
I dont turn up and fail to unreg
I lose my £5 credit.
I pay £5 direct to APAT and I can reg for another event.
At the end of the season, APAT keep my fiver and I do it again next season.
Any good? Or have I missed the point as usual ?
You know...this has possibilities..."Rolling Registration"
I"m not sure how much work it would take to administer but it"s better than the £5 an event option.
"Use It or Lose it" combined with "Abuse It and Lose It"
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Steve
Yes I know, and I would be against that option, however a ""rolling"" £5 may be another option I thought
Any funds I lose by failing to unregister etc would at least go direct to APAT with no 3rd party fees.
Im not really into paying extra reg fees that do not go into a prizepool
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Ive spent 20 mins reading all this thread, and it seems to be going round in circles tbh.
I class myself as a recreational player, and attend 2/3 APAT events where possible.
Happy to send £5 direct to APAT bank account ( no fees)
I then register interest in Coventry,
I turn up at Coventry.
I still have my £5 credit at APAT
I register interest in Event 2
I dont turn up and fail to unreg
I lose my £5 credit.
I pay £5 direct to APAT and I can reg for another event.
At the end of the season, APAT keep my fiver and I do it again next season.
Any good? Or have I missed the point as usual ?
You know...this has possibilities..."Rolling Registration"
I"m not sure how much work it would take to administer but it"s better than the £5 an event option.
"Use It or Lose it" combined with "Abuse It and Lose It"
Paulie
I think you understand what Im trying to say
Once I have played in Coventry, I have a "credit" which I dont really want to waste so I would look at future events.
If I dont use it, then APAT make a small profit instead of a casino or money transfer site
APAT can then clear the list and start it again at the seasons end
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I think that"s a great idea!
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YAY!!! That"s an EXCELLENT idea imo! Was beginning to lose hope that we were getting anywhere with this, but not now. Cheers Moocher!
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I think that"s a great idea!
OMG OMG OMG
Im gonna need to lie down somewhere dark
Ive peaked.................. 8)
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I try to sell APAT to the people I know locally. APAT's competitive advantage is less than what it was in the past, so just selling it on its own is difficult - a £75 comp, couple of hours travel, getting time off from the missus/kids etc.
I"m sure Dwayne (2nd in the Masters) won"t mind me speaking for him when he said "I see what you mean about the APAT camaraderie" - and that wasn"t even a "proper" event. But it was only Wembley getting Dwayne to APAT. Just me telling people that it"s great simply isn"t enough.
Poker players always want something for nothing, they"ll get annoyed/confused at the simplest things. I had enough trouble getting supposedly smart people just to post on the bleeding seat reservation threads! I can say with absolute surety that plenty of players (from a completely ignorant viewpoint) at my local casino would view an extra layer to the process with suspicion - Ok, they don"t have to reserve - but why go to any hassle of organising the rest of their lives to make plans for a non-guaranteed seat? People just won"t bother at all. It"s far too easy to not go, or go elsewhere.
The hardcore know how much fun APAT can be, and they"ll pay a fiver no question to support the tour. I probably would too, even if I think it"s a very inelegant solution to the problem (which tbf is the main crux of why I don"t think it"s a good idea - you"ll still need to admin the £5 fee and the seat list, case by case I assume?).
I would think this discussion would be better served on the LPPL forum - more of the kind of players APAT want to attract there. Has it been posted there? (I can"t see it, but assume I can"t see everything).
Edit: And Moocher"s idea is excellent if it can be worked from an admin POV (get Phil_TC to dust off his coding gloves ;))
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Ive spent 20 mins reading all this thread, and it seems to be going round in circles tbh.
I class myself as a recreational player, and attend 2/3 APAT events where possible.
Happy to send £5 direct to APAT bank account ( no fees)
I then register interest in Coventry,
I turn up at Coventry.
I still have my £5 credit at APAT
I register interest in Event 2
I dont turn up and fail to unreg
I lose my £5 credit.
I pay £5 direct to APAT and I can reg for another event.
At the end of the season, APAT keep my fiver and I do it again next season.
Any good? Or have I missed the point as usual ?
It"s a pretty decent effort Graham, but how does it work on the "Pay Now" button? That"s what we"re looking for, a simple button / banner that sits on the home page right up until the event.
So with your first event you would use the button, and attend as planned. However, your second event now starts to involve admin and lists. Have you paid or not? Do we need to check lists from several events? Do we have a second button on the home page if you have? It just doesn"t have the simplicity that I think we need.
I have to say I"m getting frustrated with the thread now - the win win answer doesn"t exist so I"m at the point of saying stuff it, let"s stick with closing the events two weeks early and have buy in via the APAT or Partner client. Then I can switch my energies to looking for a couple of admin volunteers.
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How about a "Register Now" button instead which leads you to the relevant event(s) IF you are already listed in the "Permit Registration" database table.
If you aren"t it takes you to the form to allow you to pay the £5 to become a member with Registration privileges.
Lists of users allowed to register and those who have registered for events should (he said hopefully) be just a matter of exporting a file from the database.
I think this is entirely possible using WordPress but you"d have to talk to Phil.
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Des / Paulie
Some fine tuning required. I did think of it as a REGISTER NOW,
A PAY NOW bypasses it completely and possibly adds admin to separate the 3 costs involved?
For the record, as I only play a few I would prob pay the £5 regardless, but can see the added costs for die hard players who play every event. It doesnt reward their loyalty.
I thought it may be workable as an option
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Perceived value is a funny thing...
When I read abut the £5 extra idea I thought, "I don"t like it" and if I"m honest I still don"t primarily for the reasons stated around attracting new members etc.
However I do like the membership idea with a fee attached with one of the benefits being the members-only pre-sale idea. Don R has put this idea forward already and I don"t see why it cannot work (if it can"t can someone tell me why).
I think it should be a straight forward members / non-members approach, getting into associate members, gold, silver, bronze etc. would be complex (don"t walk before you can run).
Most football & rugby clubs do this where there would be one week before the public sale date to but your seat... membership should also carry other benefits e.g. discounts from APAT merchandise (can APAT facilitate this?) and a small limited edition gift.
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I can switch my energies to looking for a couple of admin volunteers.
What will his involve Des? I"m happy to help if I can.
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I can switch my energies to looking for a couple of admin volunteers.
What will his involve Des? I"m happy to help if I can.
That"s very kind Del, let me contact you on pm.
How great that three people have actually pm"d me with an offer to help. Much appreciated I can tell you.
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Perceived value is a funny thing...
When I read abut the £5 extra idea I thought, "I don"t like it" and if I"m honest I still don"t primarily for the reasons stated around attracting new members etc.
However I do like the membership idea with a fee attached with one of the benefits being the members-only pre-sale idea. Don R has put this idea forward already and I don"t see why it cannot work (if it can"t can someone tell me why).
I think it should be a straight forward members / non-members approach, getting into associate members, gold, silver, bronze etc. would be complex (don"t walk before you can run).
Most football & rugby clubs do this where there would be one week before the public sale date to but your seat... membership should also carry other benefits e.g. discounts from APAT merchandise (can APAT facilitate this?) and a small limited edition gift.
I"ll relook at all of the options JP but there isn"t an ideal answer that ticks all of the boxes, even in my own initial suggestion. We have until the S7 announcement to come up with the answer, I would imagine a few days.
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£5 to reserve a seat seems fair to me.
Im a single mum with a young family and it sometimes prevents me from being 100% sure that I can attend and it is usually last minute before I know for sure, to me being able to reserve my seat and it only costing me a fiver and guaranteeing me a place, lets me at least book my hotel in advance and get it cheap on a flexible rate, then travel costs can be arranged when I know 100% I can go. If I can"t go, losing a fiver is worth it IMO, these guys work their backsides off behind the scenes and it all helps to cover admin costs etc.
its a packet of cigs to me, if i can buy a packet of cigs a day, i can use a fiver to reserve my seat once every couple of months towards an event i really wanna go to, if i go i get it back (win win) if i cant go, then im happy to put it in the admin pot for reserving the seat
I probably dont make sense but really im wondering what all the fuss is about, when I go to events I see peeps knocking back the beers and smoking their wee hearts out, reserving a seat for £5 well cmon its not the end of the world and £5 in this day and age isnt worth all that much in todays living costs but its worth a lot to APAT to keep things running as smoothly as possible for the players and themselves and it guarantees a seat! People go on and on about what other casinos/sites do and how APAT are asking too much. APAT are always thinking of the players, never about themselves and anything they suggest is in the best interest of APAT and the players and to be coming forward and asking for opinions shows how much we mean to them as a community
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Right now we have a system that only indicates how many people are interested, not how many will actually turn up.
Implementing a £5 fee will give a system that neither tells you how many people are interested*, nor how many people will actually turn up**.
I think the former is therefore much better than the latter (putting aside administration costs).
For example, any notion that a £5 fee would have avoided 30 people not turning up at Wembley from the 80 or so that registered their interest is laughable. 80 wouldn"t have paid the fiver in the first place. What would have happened IMO is that perhaps 30 would have paid the fiver and 25 of those turned up. Further to that only having 30 people registered may have actually put off those that would otherwise go, because they fear a small field and no value.
*because some will be interested but will either not pay the £5 or try to avoid it by registering after the fee is reduced to £0.
** because £5 is expendable
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registering after the fee is reduced to £0.
I don"t think this was ever a suggestion...it"s a fiver or you turn up and hope.
At least that"s the way I read it.
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registering after the fee is reduced to £0.
I don"t think this was ever a suggestion...it"s a fiver or you turn up and hope.
At least that"s the way I read it.
Yes I read it that way too, but some did suggest removing the fee for a short period immediately prior to the event so I just covered it off by putting it that way.
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It"s a tricky one this. Having just experienced the disappointment of seeing 15 unsold seats at Wembley, I agree that there needs to be a solution that balances APAT's need to cover its costs in delivering excellent value/formatted competitons, with the player"s need for good value & convenience.
It should be noted that having tournaments fully sold is a benefit to the players involved.
However, I think there need to be more benefits than this! Someone"s already posted the idea about an annual membership bestowing benefits. I think that this is the way to go - but with no tier system, just a flat-rate membership fee that would give the following example benefits:
1. Tournament pre-reg preference up to say 10 days in advance of the comp
2. A piece of APAT merchandise - a card-guard; t-shirt; cap; calendar & zillions of other low-cost volume items
3. Staking privelege (?)
4. Monthly email updates on APAT special offers
I can"t speak for everyone, of course, but even those on tight budgets would probably value this at something around £20 p/a - that"s about 3 packets of fags...
It also has the benefit of simplicity, and perhaps the "welcome pack" could include the facility to authorise payment by DD, which I believe would keep transaction fees relatively low - and even offer people the choice to pay by cheque in the post should they so wish (and this is even cheaper for APAT)
Maybe I"m being niaive...
4h Kh
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TBH the 1st thing i think when "Membership" is mentioned is "clique". The appeal of APAT is that the very fact that its open to all grassroots players, and not too sure what effect a membership would have?? Thats not saying it wont work?
Why cant me just punish people that dont let APAT know they cant attend with enough notice. Its pretty embarrassing that grown adults cant have the common curtosey to do that tbf.
Still....
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I can switch my energies to looking for a couple of admin volunteers.
What will his involve Des? I"m happy to help if I can.
Just seen this, definitely +1 Des if you need my help. Goes for anything really, just ask
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Perceived value is a funny thing...
When I read abut the £5 extra idea I thought, "I don"t like it" and if I"m honest I still don"t primarily for the reasons stated around attracting new members etc.
However I do like the membership idea with a fee attached with one of the benefits being the members-only pre-sale idea. Don R has put this idea forward already and I don"t see why it cannot work (if it can"t can someone tell me why).
I think it should be a straight forward members / non-members approach, getting into associate members, gold, silver, bronze etc. would be complex (don"t walk before you can run).
Most football & rugby clubs do this where there would be one week before the public sale date to but your seat... membership should also carry other benefits e.g. discounts from APAT merchandise (can APAT facilitate this?) and a small limited edition gift.
A pint from Des?
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Perceived value is a funny thing...
When I read abut the £5 extra idea I thought, "I don"t like it" and if I"m honest I still don"t primarily for the reasons stated around attracting new members etc.
However I do like the membership idea with a fee attached with one of the benefits being the members-only pre-sale idea. Don R has put this idea forward already and I don"t see why it cannot work (if it can"t can someone tell me why).
I think it should be a straight forward members / non-members approach, getting into associate members, gold, silver, bronze etc. would be complex (don"t walk before you can run).
Most football & rugby clubs do this where there would be one week before the public sale date to but your seat... membership should also carry other benefits e.g. discounts from APAT merchandise (can APAT facilitate this?) and a small limited edition gift.
A pint from Des?
LOL! Thread rocks :)
...and thanks for the offer. Seven volunteer offers and counting now, happy days.
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It"s a tricky one this. Having just experienced the disappointment of seeing 15 unsold seats at Wembley, I agree that there needs to be a solution that balances APAT's need to cover its costs in delivering excellent value/formatted competitons, with the player"s need for good value & convenience.
It should be noted that having tournaments fully sold is a benefit to the players involved.
However, I think there need to be more benefits than this! Someone"s already posted the idea about an annual membership bestowing benefits. I think that this is the way to go - but with no tier system, just a flat-rate membership fee that would give the following example benefits:
1. Tournament pre-reg preference up to say 10 days in advance of the comp
2. A piece of APAT merchandise - a card-guard; t-shirt; cap; calendar & zillions of other low-cost volume items
3. Staking privelege (?)
4. Monthly email updates on APAT special offers
I can"t speak for everyone, of course, but even those on tight budgets would probably value this at something around £20 p/a - that"s about 3 packets of fags...
It also has the benefit of simplicity, and perhaps the "welcome pack" could include the facility to authorise payment by DD, which I believe would keep transaction fees relatively low - and even offer people the choice to pay by cheque in the post should they so wish (and this is even cheaper for APAT)
Maybe I"m being niaive...
4h Kh
One of the reasons I suggested a teired membership was to ensure everyone could be a member at no cost (bronze) and a fee could be paid for (silver, gold) some priveleges.
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Any membership fee at least doubles for those of us in multi-player households.
As does any extra fee for that matter.
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Any membership fee at least doubles for those of us in multi-player households.
As does any extra fee for that matter.
Luckily you have the perfect solution for that - multiple salaries.
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Any membership fee at least doubles for those of us in multi-player households.
As does any extra fee for that matter.
Luckily you have the perfect solution for that - multiple salaries.
lol - let"s no go there ;)
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Any membership fee at least doubles for those of us in multi-player households.
As does any extra fee for that matter.
I don"t want to pay any more money than I have to either, but nor do I want to spend my hard-earned travelling to a comp that I thought was going to be sold out only to discover on arrival that there was 40%+ no-shows....
If anyone has a cost-free solution that ensures that people who reserve a seat on here actually turn up, then I"m certain Des & the rest of us would love to hear it!
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I can switch my energies to looking for a couple of admin volunteers.
What will his involve Des? I"m happy to help if I can.
Just seen this, definitely +1 Des if you need my help. Goes for anything really, just ask
+2
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Attracting new players
I have been a member since s2, and got introduced via friends who played s1. The clickfest was a simple, easy to way to register, sold out very quickly and gave APAT a very accurate expectation of numbers to expect at the venue. However, over the last few years, I have introduced new players to APAT and registration has been somewhat confusing for them. With registering on the forum, finding details of upcoming events, understanding how to register, downloading client, finding holding tank, or searching the forum for seat reservation, it"s just too long winded.
Registration & Fees
The registration process needs to be idiot proof. I have a number of players in my regular game, who rely on me to let them know when the next event is. They even ask me to register for them, and when I start explaining the registration process, I"ve lost them. So they never end up playing. I 100% agree that you need a simple "Register Now" link on the home page. From my perspective, and surely many others with jobs and families, I would like to see a link to all the current seasons events on the home page, then under each event there would be a "Register Now" link. This would allow players to plan the whole season, book holidays and notify family. This link would direct you to a payment page, where a £5 payment will secure you a seat. Now if this £5 can"t be deducted from the buyin or reg fee, and is to be used to generate revenue for APAT, then would it be possible to bring back the free buffet? Players may be less concerned by the extra fee if they know they"re getting a free meal out of it. Another option to disguise the additional £5 fee would be to run the tournaments as £75 + £5 and take the 10% rake from the prize pool. This would stop new players being put off by the seemingly high reg fees. I have actually introduced this in my local £55 (now £50) tournament, and we"ve had a significant increase in numbers.
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Attracting new players
I have been a member since s2, and got introduced via friends who played s1. The clickfest was a simple, easy to way to register, sold out very quickly and gave APAT a very accurate expectation of numbers to expect at the venue. However, over the last few years, I have introduced new players to APAT and registration has been somewhat confusing for them. With registering on the forum, finding details of upcoming events, understanding how to register, downloading client, finding holding tank, or searching the forum for seat reservation, it"s just too long winded.
Registration & Fees
The registration process needs to be idiot proof. I have a number of players in my regular game, who rely on me to let them know when the next event is. They even ask me to register for them, and when I start explaining the registration process, I"ve lost them. So they never end up playing. I 100% agree that you need a simple "Register Now" link on the home page. From my perspective, and surely many others with jobs and families, I would like to see a link to all the current seasons events on the home page, then under each event there would be a "Register Now" link. This would allow players to plan the whole season, book holidays and notify family. This link would direct you to a payment page, where a £5 payment will secure you a seat. Now if this £5 can"t be deducted from the buyin or reg fee, and is to be used to generate revenue for APAT, then would it be possible to bring back the free buffet? Players may be less concerned by the extra fee if they know they"re getting a free meal out of it. Another option to disguise the additional £5 fee would be to run the tournaments as £75 + £5 and take the 10% rake from the prize pool. This would stop new players being put off by the seemingly high reg fees. I have actually introduced this in my local £55 (now £50) tournament, and we"ve had a significant increase in numbers.
AGREED
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Now if this £5 can"t be deducted from the buyin or reg fee, and is to be used to generate revenue for APAT, then would it be possible to bring back the free buffet? Players may be less concerned by the extra fee if they know they"re getting a free meal out of it. Another option to disguise the additional £5 fee would be to run the tournaments as £75 + £5 and take the 10% rake from the prize pool. This would stop new players being put off by the seemingly high reg fees. I have actually introduced this in my local £55 (now £50) tournament, and we"ve had a significant increase in numbers.
A couple of interesting ideas here but, unfortunately, not really likely to work.
I like the idea of a buffet coming back but in practice it"s just not...erm, practical. The comp structure just doesn"t have enough spare time in it for a 45 minute break any more...does it?
The £5 should never be "disguised" and I think this is one of the very last things APAT would ever want to do. All buy-in money goes into the prize pool and always has.
It"s a £75 + 10% comp and the seat reservation fee is voluntary. It doesn"t apply to anyone buying in on the day..nor should it. It never going to be liked or popular but it will, assuming Des goes with it, be tolerated.
Frankly, I don"t think it will happen, there"s enough resentment of it for Des to drop it...but I"ve been wrong before*.
*At least once...I"m sure.
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I"m very keen on the return of the buffet break.
If last weekend taught me one thing, it was that not getting a proper meal each day is really not very good for you. I think dropping a level to include a proper dinner break is actually a step forward.
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I"m very keen on the return of the buffet break.
If last weekend taught me one thing, it was that not getting a proper meal each day is really not very good for you. I think dropping a level to include a proper dinner break is actually a step forward.
So long as the "proper dinner break" includes "proper dinner". This was so open to abuse by the organising casinos who either didn"t serve enough to feed 200 people, Luton and Blackpool stick in the mind, or spent so little on it that the cheap slop they served up was barely fit for human consumption, Bolton hang your head.
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I"m very keen on the return of the buffet break.
If last weekend taught me one thing, it was that not getting a proper meal each day is really not very good for you. I think dropping a level to include a proper dinner break is actually a step forward.
Best thing ive seen all thread!!!
Need a good meal, especially if im gonna but up 4am playing cash/Open face chinese etc :)
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Understand, I"m not against a break (for a buffet or whatever)...just that I don"t think we should include a £5 fee for a buffet.
I"d rather decide what I want to do with my £5...and whether I want to eat or not...and if I do, what I want to eat.
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Understand, I"m not against a break (for a buffet or whatever)...just that I don"t think we should include a £5 fee for a buffet.
I"d rather decide what I want to do with my £5...and whether I want to eat or not...and if I do, what I want to eat.
Paulie, do you remember the attempt by Loose Cannon to enforce the £20 compulsory buffet?
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Understand, I"m not against a break (for a buffet or whatever)...just that I don"t think we should include a £5 fee for a buffet.
I"d rather decide what I want to do with my £5...and whether I want to eat or not...and if I do, what I want to eat.
Paulie, do you remember the attempt by Loose Cannon to enforce the £20 compulsory buffet?
I do...
I haven"t seen anything go down that badly since the Titanic.
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or spent so little on it that the cheap slop they served up was barely fit for human consumption, Bolton hang your head.
If your "Low-light" is Bolton, then you clearly didn"t go to Edinburgh in S3.... The Pies, The Pies!!!!
On a serious note; agree with most of Sillbags" points
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I agree with everything Sillibags posted except the last point, which would be underhand and resented by players and possibly not legal.
The rest of his points are spot on, though, especially the easy registration. And the buffets - people remember the bad ones, such as Edinburgh and Walsall, but there were some fantastic ones too. Dublin was good, but I will never forget the amazing buffet in Cardiff.
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What"s wrong with Scotch Pies? Worth a fiver IMO.
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I"m not suggesting it should be an enforced buffet, but making sure we leave enough time for players to get some proper food would seem a good thing to me.
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I"m not suggesting it should be an enforced buffet, but making sure we leave enough time for players to get some proper food would seem a good thing to me.
Nail on the head Leigh. I don"t mind saying that towards the end of the day I struggle. I don"t like eating whilst at the table as it puts me off food and my game, doing either that well. I, for one, don"t mind one less level day 1, one more day 2 to compensate?
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I agree with everything Sillibags posted except the last point, which would be underhand and resented by players and possibly not legal.
Don"t the WSOP take their rake from the prize pool?
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Take a level off Day 1, and start Day 2 an hr earlier to compensate!?
Sounds good to me
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It would seem to me that we need to start at 2pm on day 1, and not 2.30.
This allows for a 45 min break after level 6, so 6.45ish (assuming we start on time and have a 15 min break after level 3) thus allowing both dealers and players to partake of sustenance as they see fit. This would also see a normalish finishing time of 12.30/1am
It also allows for players to have a chat with newbies, as well as old friends, which is something that only seems to happen for those of us that know each other well. I am sure that newbies feel on the outside sometimes when they don"t really know anyone.
It might be nice for one or two of the more established members to do a "meet and greet" in the break to answer questions about APAT and also allow newbies to meet other newbies and start to form the types of friendships that many of us enjoy. I"m happy to start the ball rolling in Coventry, if it"s do-able.
The lack of a proper break has, imho, been a contributory factor to some friendships being lost, particularly when people bust early and decide to go home. At least with a decent break the APAT camaraderie can still flourish and hopefully numbers will increase as a result.
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Im sure this has been asked before, but why cant we start Day 1/2 at 1pm instead of 2:30pm??
Seems really pointless to waste so much of the day, as once up showered and fed, i find myself hangin around waiting for day 2s to start. This is with 5am sleeps after late night degenning, so sure those that actually go to bed at a reasonable time must be twiddling their thumbs.
We know that the events seem to have a super nitty final 2 tables to a winner, so surely by doing this we could all be home that hr or so earlier for work on the monday?
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I"m very keen on the return of the buffet break.
If last weekend taught me one thing, it was that not getting a proper meal each day is really not very good for you. I think dropping a level to include a proper dinner break is actually a step forward.
^^^This 100%^^^
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Im sure this has been asked before, but why cant we start Day 1/2 at 1pm instead of 2:30pm??
It"s a question of staffing the tables with dealers, arranging bar service and valet cover for the extra time.
It could be done, I suppose, subject to the casinos being agreeable but I suspect the vig would have to rise.
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Im sure this has been asked before, but why cant we start Day 1/2 at 1pm instead of 2:30pm??
It"s a question of staffing the tables with dealers, arranging bar service and valet cover for the extra time.
It could be done, I suppose, subject to the casinos being agreeable but I suspect the vig would have to rise.
Fair enough, i only wondered as APAT is the only Tour that starts this late (that ive played in)
UKIPTs, GPS, etc all start earlier from my memory so it obv can be done
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We were supposed to be starting at 1pm on Sundays in S6 but other than Coventry that never happened. Casinos obviously didn"t think much of it then.
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I agree with everything Sillibags posted except the last point, which would be underhand and resented by players and possibly not legal.
Don"t the WSOP take their rake from the prize pool?
DTD do
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I agree with everything Sillibags posted except the last point, which would be underhand and resented by players and possibly not legal.
Don"t the WSOP take their rake from the prize pool?
DTD do
Even though DTD do it - it"s still a terrible idea.
At worse it leads to the situation in America where massive chunks end up being taken out of the prize pool - at best you"re still effectively trying to "trick" people into believing something is cheaper than it is.
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10% juice charged, but then additional % withheld for costs? wow!!
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I agree with everything Sillibags posted except the last point, which would be underhand and resented by players and possibly not legal.
Don"t the WSOP take their rake from the prize pool?
DTD do
Even though DTD do it - it"s still a terrible idea.
At worse it leads to the situation in America where massive chunks end up being taken out of the prize pool - at best you"re still effectively trying to "trick" people into believing something is cheaper than it is.
Totally agree with the above.
Don"t like it when places do this.
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I"ve not been a huge fan of the additional charge, but when you balance it off with guaranteeing a seat, being then able to book early hotels and transport etc, whilst also supporting some of the APAT costs associated with running these events, then in the current poker climate, although not an insignificant amount to some players, I think it is a small price to pay.
This is a all true - for the existing community.
And there has been very little argument from people unwilling to pay it themselves; I think pretty much the concern has been how much this could potentially harm the growth of APAT - a lot of people not familiar with APAT are just going to look at figures like those and not even consider playing.
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I"ve not been a huge fan of the additional charge, but when you balance it off with guaranteeing a seat, being then able to book early hotels and transport etc, whilst also supporting some of the APAT costs associated with running these events, then in the current poker climate, although not an insignificant amount to some players, I think it is a small price to pay.
This is a all true - for the existing community.
And there has been very little argument from people unwilling to pay it themselves; I think pretty much the concern has been how much this could potentially harm the growth of APAT - a lot of people not familiar with APAT are just going to look at figures like those and not even consider playing.
The proposed optional booking fee of £5, is an additional option for members, they can choose to ignore that option if they so wish.
If the minor addition of this new option can harm us, then we must be in a very precarious position.
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My personal opinion..
I realise Des, Leigh, Matt and all those associated with APAT want the best for its followers..
Discussions are always very open and have great feedback from all, which makes APAT fantastic as everyone gets their say :).
I"m sure Des didn"t come to the decision to prehaps charge £5 additional fee to secure a garunteed seat to an event lightly..
But at the end of the day if it means securing venues for future events in the season and beyond I think it"s a very small price to pay or not to pay if you are against. I could sense the frustration in Des when he posted about the no shows at Wembley and it must be kinda upsetting and frustrating when this happens..
Poker is mainly about money at the end of the day it is a form of gambling I suppose but with a skill factor on top.. if the extra £5 is going to make a big enough decision to make a new comer to APAT or even a hardened APAT member think twice, then prehaps poker isn"t the recreational hobby for them.. May sound harsh I know but that"s just my view, £5 in today"s climate is pretty much nothing, and over the season if it adds up to £50-£60 then maybe that"s a nice meal out and a couple of glasses of wine..
Going back to the discussion situation, I don"t think it even should of been put up for discussion, Des should of explained what the situation was with why it was being implimented.. I guess Des wanted to discuss this to see if there was any other possible way around this?.. At the end of the day if indeed the £5 charge is implemented then you still have the option to use or not to use your choice..
Just my 2cents.. My opinion.
Now where do I send the £5 to secure my Coventry seat ;D ?
Oh and if I send another £5 can I have a pre announced season 7 schedual?
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Thread is TLDR.
However when can we reserve out seats? How will this be done?
Thanks
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Can you link me to where you can book those events in advance? I"m thinking maybe PokerStars are as bad as APAT at making it obvious to customers.
I"m thinking that mainly Pokerstars don"t offer this service because there"s no demand for it (?)
If APAT had a link you could click to pay the whole buy in instead of paying a reservation fee - that is what pretty much everybody would do. The additional layer of reservation followed by payment at a later date doesn"t really strike me as a strong selling point.
I don"t really like the idea of different levels of membership of APAT - but I think it"s a better idea to have a paid membership when you can have priority booking on tournament seats than it is to have paid reservation. It may be nominally optional - but if a tournament is likely to sell out then it won"t really be optional and that just makes it extra juice with all the logical implications of putting off people who aren"t already familiar with the brand.
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If APAT had a link you could click to pay the whole buy in instead of paying a reservation fee - that is what pretty much everybody would do. The additional layer of reservation followed by payment at a later date doesn"t really strike me as a strong selling point.
They used to, and it would sell out well before the two week red tape threshold.
Why not have two buttons, one to pay the whole lot and have say 100 seats available on that which closes 3 weeks previous to the event, and one to reserve for £5 which stays open to the evening before, with say 60 seats on that, the remainder going on satellites and local sales.
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Can you link me to where you can book those events in advance? I"m thinking maybe PokerStars are as bad as APAT at making it obvious to customers.
A combination of client buy-in and an email to the Stars registration team, or contacting the casino directly and pre-registering by that route.
http://www.ukipt.com/tournaments/ukipt-series/how-to-enter/
http://www.ukipt.com/tournaments/marbella/how-to-enter/
You do however, have to consent to being a "Pokerstars Player" and whatever Ts & Cs are associated with that.
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Can you link me to where you can book those events in advance? I"m thinking maybe PokerStars are as bad as APAT at making it obvious to customers.
A combination of client buy-in and an email to the Stars registration team, or contacting the casino directly and pre-registering by that route.
http://www.ukipt.com/tournaments/ukipt-series/how-to-enter/
http://www.ukipt.com/tournaments/marbella/how-to-enter/
You do however, have to consent to being a "Pokerstars Player" and whatever Ts & Cs are associated with that.
...but it"s via the poker client and involves emails or phone calls, so not a simple, single button solution like we"re proposing.
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It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill.
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting).
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event).
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play).
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
-
It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill.
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting).
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event).
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play).
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
What or where or when is the English Amateur Championship? Is that Coventry this month or a later date?
The names confuse me since they tend to be held at different places and different times of the year.
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It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill.
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting).
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event).
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play).
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
What or where or when is the English Amateur Championship? Is that Coventry this month or a later date?
The names confuse me since they tend to be held at different places and different times of the year.
The English Amateur Championship has been the opening event of the season and held at G Coventry for the past couple of years.
If we don"t have the final venue confirmed for season seven within the next couple of days, we"ll publish full details for the second event; as we did Coventry, ahead of the overall schedule.
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The English Amateur Championship has been the opening event of the season and held at G Coventry for the past couple of years.
If we don"t have the final venue confirmed for season seven within the next couple of days, we"ll publish full details for the second third event; as we did Coventry, ahead of the overall schedule.
FYP...lest we forget the ISPT.
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It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill.
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting).
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event).
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play).
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
What or where or when is the English Amateur Championship? Is that Coventry this month or a later date?
The names confuse me since they tend to be held at different places and different times of the year.
The English Amateur Championship has been the opening event of the season and held at G Coventry for the past couple of years.
If we don"t have the final venue confirmed for season seven within the next couple of days, we"ll publish full details for the second event; as we did Coventry, ahead of the overall schedule.
Can"t we just have a "tba" like we did for Stoke last season?
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Thanks for the clarification Des.
Neither Debjani nor I will pay this £5 extra fee, it"s a bad idea and not good for APAT in the long run.
We"ll just turn up on the day and if there"s a seat great, but if not we"ll go to Costco on the way home and do our monthly shop. Win win.
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It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill.
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting).
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event).
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play).
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
What or where or when is the English Amateur Championship? Is that Coventry this month or a later date?
The names confuse me since they tend to be held at different places and different times of the year.
The English Amateur Championship has been the opening event of the season and held at G Coventry for the past couple of years.
If we don"t have the final venue confirmed for season seven within the next couple of days, we"ll publish full details for the second event; as we did Coventry, ahead of the overall schedule.
Can"t we just have a "tba" like we did for Stoke last season?
It"s an option Matt, but we lose a lot of impact with that. But we completely understand that people want to start planning asap.
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Thanks for the clarification Des.
Neither Debjani nor I will pay this £5 extra fee, it"s a bad idea and not good for APAT in the long run.
I"m assuming this is a Mac issue?
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Hi Des
Do you know if all of S7 Satellites will be held on William Hill, or likely to be split across various sites? Just thinking ahead and deciding where to put my meagre roll to spin it up ready ;-)
Thanks in advance
Mich
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Thanks for the clarification Des.
Neither Debjani nor I will pay this £5 extra fee, it"s a bad idea and not good for APAT in the long run.
We"ll just turn up on the day and if there"s a seat great, but if not we"ll go to Costco on the way home and do our monthly shop. Win win.
Thanks for your thoughts Andrew and we"ll certainly review the effectiveness or otherwise of the reservation fee on an ongoing basis. Right now it"s just another thing that we are testing. However, for Coventry there are several options to entry. Why not satellite or buy in via WH at no additional cost?
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Hi Des
Do you know if all of S7 Satellites will be held on William Hill, or likely to be split across various sites? Just thinking ahead and deciding where to put my meagre roll to spin it up ready ;-)
Thanks in advance
Mich
They won"t Mich, this and the next event will.
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Sorry if I have missed something, my eyes started going at around page 7, but is there a conclusion to the seat debate? ie is it now £5 on top of the usual fee? or are we still under negotiation?
Personally I think it leaves people like myself with no choice - who have to travel many a mile to get to the venue and so have to book hotels etc in advance to guarantee getting one. We, of course, have to gaurantee we have a seat or we are just possibly waisting our petrol/hotel money. I"m not bothered about the £5, i mean its a pint and a half at the end of the day, but it does make the buy in slightly lob-sided ie the £50 side events have another 10% added to the cost, or is it just the main events? HELP.....
ps will the DTD during the August bank holiday be the likely European championship venue/date as per the last 2 years?
cheers
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Sorry if I have missed something,
I"m not bothered about the £5, i mean its a pint and a half at the end of the day, but it does make the buy in slightly lob-sided ie the £50 side events have another 10% added to the cost, or is it just the main events? H
The £5 would only be for the Main Event.
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OH Right thanks - hopefully see you all at DTD in August
Cheers
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Thanks for the clarification Des.
Neither Debjani nor I will pay this £5 extra fee, it"s a bad idea and not good for APAT in the long run.
We"ll just turn up on the day and if there"s a seat great, but if not we"ll go to Costco on the way home and do our monthly shop. Win win.
Thanks for your thoughts Andrew and we"ll certainly review the effectiveness or otherwise of the reservation fee on an ongoing basis. Right now it"s just another thing that we are testing. However, for Coventry there are several options to entry. Why not satellite or buy in via WH at no additional cost?
Confused now - is it just me ???
If you can buy in direct on the WH website without a £5 fee, where does the reservation fee fit in?
I carefully re-read what you said earlier and maybe you mean this:
It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill [NO RESERVATION FEE]
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting). [NO RESERVATION FEE?]
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event). [Where and how?]
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play). [NO RESERVATION FEE]
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
So (if I"m right) the fee would only be charged to people who prefer not to pay in full in advance (or who miss the pay in full deadline) but still wish to reserve prior to the day of play?
That"s a question for Des - no guessing the answer please Paulie!
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Thanks for the clarification Des.
Neither Debjani nor I will pay this £5 extra fee, it"s a bad idea and not good for APAT in the long run.
We"ll just turn up on the day and if there"s a seat great, but if not we"ll go to Costco on the way home and do our monthly shop. Win win.
Thanks for your thoughts Andrew and we"ll certainly review the effectiveness or otherwise of the reservation fee on an ongoing basis. Right now it"s just another thing that we are testing. However, for Coventry there are several options to entry. Why not satellite or buy in via WH at no additional cost?
Confused now - is it just me ???
If you can buy in direct on the WH website without a £5 fee, where does the reservation fee fit in?
I carefully re-read what you said earlier and maybe you mean this:
It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill [NO RESERVATION FEE]
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting). [NO RESERVATION FEE?]
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event). [Where and how?]
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play). [NO RESERVATION FEE]
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
So (if I"m right) the fee would only be charged to people who prefer not to pay in full in advance (or who miss the pay in full deadline) but still wish to reserve prior to the day of play?
That"s a question for Des - no guessing the answer please Paulie!
Correct Andrew.
APAT would not end up paying any transaction fees on payments made via WH, so we can offer that as an additional payment option here for anyone who wants to buy in without the reservation fee. For anyone who would prefer to pay at the end of the month, or who misses the online buy in window there is the reservation option.
There will be a button on the APAT home page once the schedule goes up.
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Let"s look at the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour.
I would very much like to play the £200 + £20 Six Max event at DTD next month, but the only way I can guarantee a seat is by winning a satellite, as they do not accept direct buyins until much closer to the event.
I just want to be able to buyin direct (blatant brag, I know)
So it"s a £48+£4 (1 in 5 get a seat)
Or a £10+£1 into the above satellite
Either option is generating more rake for the aforementioned online site, and although I could bink a seat on the cheap, based on the hands I have just got called down with, it"s like treading through a minefield.
Enforcing satellite entry only is just another way for the site to generate fees as they collect rake throughout the whole satellite process. Again, I"m not trying to defend any additional charges, but comparing and contrasting the current options in the market.
Rant over. ;D
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Sooo when ?? does all this happen
Please enlighten me :-\
ty
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Let"s look at the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour.
I would very much like to play the £200 + £20 Six Max event at DTD next month, but the only way I can guarantee a seat is by winning a satellite, as they do not accept direct buyins until much closer to the event.
I just want to be able to buyin direct (blatant brag, I know)
So it"s a £48+£4 (1 in 5 get a seat)
Or a £10+£1 into the above satellite
Either option is generating more rake for the aforementioned online site, and although I could bink a seat on the cheap, based on the hands I have just got called down with, it"s like treading through a minefield.
Enforcing satellite entry only is just another way for the site to generate fees as they collect rake throughout the whole satellite process. Again, I"m not trying to defend any additional charges, but comparing and contrasting the current options in the market.
Rant over. ;D
Sky! :)
I love that company but can confirm they are very deeply entrenched in the making money business. I should know, I was Head of Commercial for Betting and Gaming and Head of Poker for five years.
Happy days with lots of profits.
Oh, and my last annual bonus at Sky was ridiculously large - driven by the performance of players.
Yep, big big profits being made at Sky.
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Let"s look at the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour.
I would very much like to play the £200 + £20 Six Max event at DTD next month, but the only way I can guarantee a seat is by winning a satellite, as they do not accept direct buyins until much closer to the event.
I just want to be able to buyin direct (blatant brag, I know)
So it"s a £48+£4 (1 in 5 get a seat)
Or a £10+£1 into the above satellite
Either option is generating more rake for the aforementioned online site, and although I could bink a seat on the cheap, based on the hands I have just got called down with, it"s like treading through a minefield.
Enforcing satellite entry only is just another way for the site to generate fees as they collect rake throughout the whole satellite process. Again, I"m not trying to defend any additional charges, but comparing and contrasting the current options in the market.
Rant over. ;D
Thankfully there are lots of opinions shared on this topic and my personal position on the "fee" is that it could be useful sometime and save me some monies via confident advance booking of travel and accommodation, I may never have to avail of the option but I"m happy to have the option.
Your example above Leigh does fairly compare fees, it also highlights the power of supply and demand. I suspect "the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour" ;D charge those fees because they can, because demand dictates that their events sell-out.
We have somehow slipped in that respect and it"s difficult to discern why. Maybe the opposition simply appear new and shiny to the non dedicated Apat"er?
Whilst us dyed in the wool Apat"ers wait with bated breath, into the month of June, for season seven Announcement.
Does this ever later delay effect our appeal and hence the Demand for Apat events?
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Whens direct buyin go up, i just wanna pay and get it done with!
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Let"s look at the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour.
I would very much like to play the £200 + £20 Six Max event at DTD next month, but the only way I can guarantee a seat is by winning a satellite, as they do not accept direct buyins until much closer to the event.
I just want to be able to buyin direct (blatant brag, I know)
So it"s a £48+£4 (1 in 5 get a seat)
Or a £10+£1 into the above satellite
Either option is generating more rake for the aforementioned online site, and although I could bink a seat on the cheap, based on the hands I have just got called down with, it"s like treading through a minefield.
Enforcing satellite entry only is just another way for the site to generate fees as they collect rake throughout the whole satellite process. Again, I"m not trying to defend any additional charges, but comparing and contrasting the current options in the market.
Rant over. ;D
Thankfully there are lots of opinions shared on this topic and my personal position on the "fee" is that it could be useful sometime and save me some monies via confident advance booking of travel and accommodation, I may never have to avail of the option but I"m happy to have the option.
Your example above Leigh does fairly compare fees, it also highlights the power of supply and demand. I suspect "the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour" ;D charge those fees because they can, because demand dictates that their events sell-out.
We have somehow slipped in that respect and it"s difficult to discern why. Maybe the opposition simply appear new and shiny to the non dedicated Apat"er?
Whilst us dyed in the wool Apat"ers wait with bated breath, into the month of June, for season seven Announcement.
Does this ever later delay effect our appeal and hence the Demand for Apat events?
It certainly doesn"t help that"s for sure Brendan. We don"t delay by design, right now the market is waiting to find out when in April PokerStars are planning to run their £1m UKIPT. However, we"ll be out with dates this week, with an event at the end of this month, and an event at the start of August and another at the end of August. We"ll be all promotion and action shortly and I for one can"t wait.
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Will direct buy in be available before Friday for Coventry?
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It is our intention for the English Amateur Championship to offer the following entry routes:-
- Satellites on William Hill.
- Direct buy in on William Hill (closes c. 10 days prior to the event starting).
- Reserve a seat for £5 (closes at midnight on the eve of the event).
- Direct buy in at the casino (on the day of play).
Going forward we hope to look at opening up live satellites via the Live Pub Poker League and the APAT Home League.
-
Will direct buy in be available before Friday for Coventry?
The sats and direct buy in will defo be up for next week Ant, possibly by Friday. Once we get it confirmed from Will Hill, we"ll post here. That said, the direct buy in opens after the sats, so that"s likely to be next Weds based on the plan I"ve seen.
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the direct buy in opens after the sats
Old school :D
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Will direct buy in be available before Friday for Coventry?
The sats and direct buy in will defo be up for next week Ant, possibly by Friday. Once we get it confirmed from Will Hill, we"ll post here. That said, the direct buy in opens after the sats, so that"s likely to be next Weds based on the plan I"ve seen.
You might want to check that plan ;)
the direct buy in opens after the sats
Old school :D
New school ;)
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Let"s look at the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour.
I would very much like to play the £200 + £20 Six Max event at DTD next month, but the only way I can guarantee a seat is by winning a satellite, as they do not accept direct buyins until much closer to the event.
I just want to be able to buyin direct (blatant brag, I know)
So it"s a £48+£4 (1 in 5 get a seat)
Or a £10+£1 into the above satellite
Either option is generating more rake for the aforementioned online site, and although I could bink a seat on the cheap, based on the hands I have just got called down with, it"s like treading through a minefield.
Enforcing satellite entry only is just another way for the site to generate fees as they collect rake throughout the whole satellite process. Again, I"m not trying to defend any additional charges, but comparing and contrasting the current options in the market.
Rant over. ;D
They/we do offer a direct buy in at outset to their Priority clients and the vast majority of events do go on direct sale generally in the fortnight before the event when most poker players (apart from the loyal play any event and qualify in crowd, which is quite large on Sky) get their wotsits in gear
I also keep a good allocation of seats for the venue which gives me a lot of flexibility for clawback if required..depending on where the demand is. Anyone who wants to get in will get in
APAT doesn"t run the scale of satellites that Sky does (nightly for six weeks prior per event, to a big liquidity pool) so understandably the regulars who come to most/all APAT events have to focus on the direct buy in mechanism and have to do so early
The downside of this is it is far more difficult for a random newbie to play an APAT compared to other recreational tours because the mechanism for entering is so cumbersome. That"s not a criticism, just an observation and not necessarily detrimental to APAT events because the customer base is so loyal, testament to the whole experience of an APAT weekend
Whilst it is true to say that each of the tours in the marketplace recoup costs in various ways, the simple lack of a free of charge "BUY NOW" button on the APAT site when an event goes on sale is the issue, as by charging for a priority work-around to get on the list merely makes the tournament more expensive for the customer
Of course an organisation like DTD has an event up in the online lobby as soon as it is announced with multiple methods of buy in. As APAT has its own card-room now, isn"t this the easiest option, with the upside that it takes APAT players onto the site?
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Will direct buy in be available before Friday for Coventry?
The sats and direct buy in will defo be up for next week Ant, possibly by Friday. Once we get it confirmed from Will Hill, we"ll post here. That said, the direct buy in opens after the sats, so that"s likely to be next Weds based on the plan I"ve seen.
You might want to check that plan ;)
the direct buy in opens after the sats
Old school :D
New school ;)
lol, you can update me here - we"re amongst friends! :)
-
-
Let"s look at the Blue Thing Above Us Poker Tour.
I would very much like to play the £200 + £20 Six Max event at DTD next month, but the only way I can guarantee a seat is by winning a satellite, as they do not accept direct buyins until much closer to the event.
I just want to be able to buyin direct (blatant brag, I know)
So it"s a £48+£4 (1 in 5 get a seat)
Or a £10+£1 into the above satellite
Either option is generating more rake for the aforementioned online site, and although I could bink a seat on the cheap, based on the hands I have just got called down with, it"s like treading through a minefield.
Enforcing satellite entry only is just another way for the site to generate fees as they collect rake throughout the whole satellite process. Again, I"m not trying to defend any additional charges, but comparing and contrasting the current options in the market.
Rant over. ;D
They/we do offer a direct buy in at outset to their Priority clients and the vast majority of events do go on direct sale generally in the fortnight before the event when most poker players (apart from the loyal play any event and qualify in crowd, which is quite large on Sky) get their wotsits in gear
I also keep a good allocation of seats for the venue which gives me a lot of flexibility for clawback if required..depending on where the demand is. Anyone who wants to get in will get in
APAT doesn"t run the scale of satellites that Sky does (nightly for six weeks prior per event, to a big liquidity pool) so understandably the regulars who come to most/all APAT events have to focus on the direct buy in mechanism and have to do so early
The downside of this is it is far more difficult for a random newbie to play an APAT compared to other recreational tours because the mechanism for entering is so cumbersome. That"s not a criticism, just an observation and not necessarily detrimental to APAT events because the customer base is so loyal, testament to the whole experience of an APAT weekend
Whilst it is true to say that each of the tours in the marketplace recoup costs in various ways, the simple lack of a free of charge "BUY NOW" button on the APAT site when an event goes on sale is the issue, as by charging for a priority work-around to get on the list merely makes the tournament more expensive for the customer
Of course an organisation like DTD has an event up in the online lobby as soon as it is announced with multiple methods of buy in. As APAT has its own card-room now, isn"t this the easiest option, with the upside that it takes APAT players onto the site?
We"d certainly like to make more of that facility Rich, but because of the way APAT contracts for our poker room, it"s near impossible to get the money to a casino within a four week plus leadtime - which means we are always playing catch up.
That"s less of an issue when we partner with a third party site, but we are still looking at min two weeks off sale prior to the event, not ideal as a lot of players hear of an event from their friends in the days leading up.
What we are trying to do is offer as many options as possible to meet all needs - not easy, but this sort of process will give players a better opportunity to get into an APAT than they"ve ever had before. And I think a home page button puts us ahead of the market (who"s sole interest is to get you to download their client) for ease of access. I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that we are primarily about live events as we have so much else going on.
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min two weeks off sale prior to the event
This is something that we see quoted all the time, and a lot of us struggle to understand why it takes two weeks to transfer money. Even if there are some obstacles (though I don"t understand what they could be), they could surely be overcome if the sender really wants to do it.
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min two weeks off sale prior to the event
This is something that we see quoted all the time, and a lot of us struggle to understand why it takes two weeks to transfer money. Even if there are some obstacles (though I don"t understand what they could be), they could surely be overcome if the sender really wants to do it.
This is an easy one, unfortunately.
The sender; if it was APAT online, wouldn"t even receive the funds from the holding tank / satellites for several weeks as we are a skin of a GTech operator. We"ve sought better flexibility there, but it doesn"t exist.
If the sender were a third party partner like William Hill for example then you get mired in process. You are asking them to send the contents of a prize pool on their site to a further third party partner, who isn"t a partner of theirs. Both the online operator and the live casino are almost always very large companies and supplier payment processes are typically once a month. So our marketing contacts have to twist the arms of their accounts counterparts to get the payment done earlier. Supplier setup forms and signoff are required and often finding the right accounts to transfer to (and from) is a nightmare. Plus, the money has to be in place and receipted prior to the live event starting. If the money isn"t there on the Friday before the event, it"s all off - no matter how large or reputable the parties involved are. Can you imagine the shame of that occuring?
I know the above all sounds long winded, but it"s a completely accurate summary of the hoops we need to handhold both parties through for each money transfer.
To give you an example of how sensitive this process is, a very large third party partner of ours sent a five figure sum of money to the wrong account a few months ago. It ended up with a casino who wasn"t holding one of our events. It took five long weeks to get the money back. Neither party could open a discussion with the other, it all had to go through APAT.
Crazy, but true.
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The sender; if it was APAT online, wouldn"t even receive the funds from the holding tank / satellites for several weeks as we are a skin of a GTech operator. We"ve sought better flexibility there, but it doesn"t exist.
If anyone wants proof of this, just look how long it took to get the charity money from the Bakers Dozen league.
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Is it not possible for the relevant casinos to have a direct buyin for the event on their own skins like DTD do?
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Is it not possible for the relevant casinos to have a direct buyin for the event on their own skins like DTD do?
Same issues apply...it"s been mooted before ITT
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So Des, if we buy direct in but then won the satellite are we refunded the direct buy? Why aren"t the satellites before the direct buy in like I think they use to be?!?!?...oh....and do I now need to reopen my WH account to buy in?
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So Des, if we buy direct in but then won the satellite are we refunded the direct buy?
As I recall, "No"...but you can unreg from the direct buy-in and get it back that way.
Why aren"t the satellites before the direct buy in like I think they use to be?!?!?
Timing would be my assumption. We"re only a couple of weeks away after all and Des wants to get as many players regged a.s.a.p. but still offer sats as a possible alternative.
...do I now need to reopen my WH account to buy in?
Yep...I certainly have / will.
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That"s what I like to see....good old fashioned common sense!!
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That"s what I like to see....good old fashioned common sense!!
Are you calling me old and common ?
;D
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Errrr ??? ??? ;D
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I like the idea of an £5 reservation fee.
Coming from abroad I always have to plan ahead to be sure to match travel plans and tournament dates.
So I rather pay a £5 fee ahead of time than being forced to lock up the full buy-ins for a long time. And being able to do travel plans early surely saves me more than 5 bucks ;-)
Of course doing it like the WCOAP was the easiest for us players but also most risky way too do it. You could have ended up with a full reservation list but half empty tables. Honestly I was surprised it went that well ... don"t think that would have worked here in Germany :-/
Btw. asked this on Facebook but didn"t get an answer so far: Will the UKOAP events at DTD in August open events or limited to UK players?
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Hi Harald,
Events are open to all, as always. The team event in the UKCOAP will be Home Nations only, but all the other events are open to amateur players worldwide.
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So does that mean APAT events are now going to be £75 + £7.50 + £5 ?
Only if feedback supports it Andrew, and in that scenario for seats reserved in advance. Not for seats bought at the venue or for seats won online.
Hi Des, what I meant before was if you won a seat (which will be x+x buy in) would you get the £5 refunded?
Absolutely!
How quickly are you expecting this to happen?
I haven"t had mine yet. As it"s a new process I thought you"d want the feedback!!
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Hi JP,
Regarding a timescale, we need the final player list from William Hill, to be able to tally up the reservation list with that list, and then can issue the necessary refunds to satellite winners.
It"s a bit frustrating for us aswell, because there will be players like yourself, who currently have two seats allocated to their name, and when an event is full, like Cardiff, until we get the lists to reconcile them, we have to hold off being able to allocate any spaces.
Leigh
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Leigh; that"s fine. So long as it works and the money is refunded, I really don"t care when, within reason.
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"Partial" refund received yesterday (according to email - haven"t actually looked at the account yet!)
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"Partial" refund received yesterday (according to email - haven"t actually looked at the account yet!)
I presume Leigh has processed this as it"s clear that a refund was due to you from the posts above JP. It would be partial to take into account the merchandising charge from the initial £5 payment. That"s around £1.
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Is there a list that we can see of people who have reserved or paid in full for the Cardiff seats?
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Is there a list that we can see of people who have reserved or paid in full for the Cardiff seats?
Cardiff Player List (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=14079.msg215427#msg215427)
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Is there a list that we can see of people who have reserved or paid in full for the Cardiff seats?
Cardiff Player List (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=14079.msg215427#msg215427)
Thanks :)