Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: AAroddersAA on August 20, 2013, 09:44:17 AM
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Hi Everybody
I have been looking around the forum but can"t find the structure for the Home Nations, it may well have been posted and I might just be being a muppet.
What is the structure please and as there are 4 players in the team are there heads up medal matches and what happens if it is a draw?
Trying to form team tactics without knowing this is hard :-)
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Player Briefing
http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=14164.msg217694#msg217694
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Hi Everybody
I have been looking around the forum but can"t find the structure for the Home Nations, it may well have been posted and I might just be being a muppet.
What is the structure please and as there are 4 players in the team are there heads up medal matches and what happens if it is a draw?
Trying to form team tactics without knowing this is hard :-)
Damned good point...
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Thanks Paulie.
I now have a fool proof strategy, that will ensure victory (not sure who for though lol)
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Hi Everybody
I have been looking around the forum but can"t find the structure for the Home Nations, it may well have been posted and I might just be being a muppet.
What is the structure please and as there are 4 players in the team are there heads up medal matches and what happens if it is a draw?
Trying to form team tactics without knowing this is hard :-)
Damned good point...
Team with most points wins?
Which is how it should be anyway ..fairest all round..simples.
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Hi Everybody
I have been looking around the forum but can"t find the structure for the Home Nations, it may well have been posted and I might just be being a muppet.
What is the structure please and as there are 4 players in the team are there heads up medal matches and what happens if it is a draw?
Trying to form team tactics without knowing this is hard :-)
Damned good point...
Team with most points wins?
Which is how it should be anyway ..fairest all round..simples.
Surely this would mean there would be no point in the HU matches?! :p
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Surely this would mean there would be no point in the HU matches?! :p
Aha...you have spotted my cunning plan.
I"m on record as being against HU matches deciding the medal positions.
By all means have them if you want but they should be points scoring like the STTs and not the overall deciding factor.
However, in the event that the HU matches go 2-2 then surely points should be the deciding factor for medals?
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2-2 should equal captains choice Hu battle!!!
Epic viewing and pressure
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2-2 should equal captains choice Hu battle!!!
Epic viewing and pressure
Stu vs Carl....
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I"m fairly sure I could even manage to put Carl on tilt eventually :p
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Nah I meant captain picks a player!?!
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I"m fairly sure I could even manage to put Carl on tilt eventually :p
Don"t need to be tilted...
Did I ever tell you I lost a HU at WCOAP with a 29-1 chip lead!! Just ask team Canada :D
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paulie i went to player briefing link you put up and it says top 2 teams play h/u for gold/silver and 3rd /4th play h/u for bronze
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paulie i went to player briefing link you put up and it says top 2 teams play h/u for gold/silver and 3rd /4th play h/u for bronze
I know...the question was..."What if the HU are 2-2...Who gets the Gold?"
My answer was my opinion that the team (of the two) with the most points. I am sure APAT will have other ideas.
I"m not in favour of HU matches deciding medal positions...I would much prefer a simple "most points = Gold" system.
You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Under the current system, the much better team who have a monster points lead having won every STT could have Gold snatched from them because they lost by a single HU match.
That just doesn"t sit right with me.
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Not for the first time I agree with Paulie here. I think we are both in a minority though and the heads up matches make for a great finish from a spectators point of view. As a player I would rather most points take it.
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You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Or.....
like the Championship, where you finish 3rd and can be 18 points clear of 6th, but still have to go through the Playoffs to get promotion where in past seasons youd have been automatically promoted!
Pros and Cons for both IMO - and you can give examples of outcomes which can re-enforce either argument.
But ultimately, the SNGs are for qualification - HU games for the medals - a la driving for show, putting for dough. Its the format, same for all, all aware of it going in to it, none can complain thereafter.
Very much looking forward to it - absolutely love team games.
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Not for the first time I agree with Paulie here. I think we are both in a minority though and the heads up matches make for a great finish from a spectators point of view. As a player I would rather most points take it.
As a spectator, I agree with the pair of you. I don"t like seeing the team who crushed all the way through, getting robbed of their rightful medal at the very end over a heads up match.
Pretty sure the fact it"s same rule for all is the only reason it"s not really been discussed.
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You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Or.....
like the Championship, where you finish 3rd and can be 18 points clear of 6th, but still have to go through the Playoffs to get promotion where in past seasons youd have been automatically promoted!
Pros and Cons for both IMO - and you can give examples of outcomes which can re-enforce either argument.
But ultimately, the SNGs are for qualification - HU games for the medals - a la driving for show, putting for dough. Its the format, same for all, all aware of it going in to it, none can complain thereafter.
Very much looking forward to it - absolutely love team games.
Mark,
Do we have an answer to the original points though?
What if the HU goes 2-2...what will be the deciding factor?
You already know my opinion :)
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paulie i went to player briefing link you put up and it says top 2 teams play h/u for gold/silver and 3rd /4th play h/u for bronze
I know...the question was..."What if the HU are 2-2...Who gets the Gold?"
My answer was my opinion that the team (of the two) with the most points. I am sure APAT will have other ideas.
I"m not in favour of HU matches deciding medal positions...I would much prefer a simple "most points = Gold" system.
You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Under the current system, the much better team who have a monster points lead having won every STT could have Gold snatched from them because they lost by a single HU match.
That just doesn"t sit right with me.
sorry paulie i misread ur comment i thought it was going to be an mtt finale
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You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Or.....
like the Championship, where you finish 3rd and can be 18 points clear of 6th, but still have to go through the Playoffs to get promotion where in past seasons youd have been automatically promoted!
Pros and Cons for both IMO - and you can give examples of outcomes which can re-enforce either argument.
But ultimately, the SNGs are for qualification - HU games for the medals - a la driving for show, putting for dough. Its the format, same for all, all aware of it going in to it, none can complain thereafter.
Very much looking forward to it - absolutely love team games.
Mark,
Do we have an answer to the original points though?
What if the HU goes 2-2...what will be the deciding factor?
You already know my opinion :)
Certainly do mate - and as with all opinions - respected it is also.
I dont know if there is a precedent for this - but my view would be that if the Heads Up for either of the medals game goes 2-2, then the Team Captains playoff in a sudden death HU game for the win.
Id give the reason for this to be that if the team who has scored the most points goes 2-1 up, they have already won the game - even should it be tied 2-2 they would win by virtue of the points gained - this in essence makes it a dead rubber. You may argue that that is well deserved as they have placed higher than their opponent - well remember that may also have been decided by a tiebreaker - or indeed by the smallest of margins due to sick beat or the coldest of hands.
So i think unless a team wins 3 of the 4 HU games, the 4th game must count. And if it is then tied, its down to the Team Captains to bring it home for their team in the same format as has or would have decided the medal places.
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You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Or.....
like the Championship, where you finish 3rd and can be 18 points clear of 6th, but still have to go through the Playoffs to get promotion where in past seasons youd have been automatically promoted!
Pros and Cons for both IMO - and you can give examples of outcomes which can re-enforce either argument.
But ultimately, the SNGs are for qualification - HU games for the medals - a la driving for show, putting for dough. Its the format, same for all, all aware of it going in to it, none can complain thereafter.
Very much looking forward to it - absolutely love team games.
Mark,
Do we have an answer to the original points though?
What if the HU goes 2-2...what will be the deciding factor?
You already know my opinion :)
Certainly do mate - and as with all opinions - respected it is also.
I dont know if there is a precedent for this - but my view would be that if the Heads Up for either of the medals game goes 2-2, then the Team Captains playoff in a sudden death HU game for the win.
Id give the reason for this to be that if the team who has scored the most points goes 2-1 up, they have already won the game - even should it be tied 2-2 they would win by virtue of the points gained - this in essence makes it a dead rubber. You may argue that that is well deserved as they have placed higher than their opponent - well remember that may also have been decided by a tiebreaker - or indeed by the smallest of margins due to sick beat or the coldest of hands.
So i think unless a team wins 3 of the 4 HU games, the 4th game must count. And if it is then tied, its down to the Team Captains to bring it home for their team in the same format as has or would have decided the medal places.
in Stu we trust! :o
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You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Or.....
like the Championship, where you finish 3rd and can be 18 points clear of 6th, but still have to go through the Playoffs to get promotion where in past seasons youd have been automatically promoted!
Pros and Cons for both IMO - and you can give examples of outcomes which can re-enforce either argument.
But ultimately, the SNGs are for qualification - HU games for the medals - a la driving for show, putting for dough. Its the format, same for all, all aware of it going in to it, none can complain thereafter.
Very much looking forward to it - absolutely love team games.
Mark,
Do we have an answer to the original points though?
What if the HU goes 2-2...what will be the deciding factor?
You already know my opinion :)
Certainly do mate - and as with all opinions - respected it is also.
I dont know if there is a precedent for this - but my view would be that if the Heads Up for either of the medals game goes 2-2, then the Team Captains playoff in a sudden death HU game for the win.
Id give the reason for this to be that if the team who has scored the most points goes 2-1 up, they have already won the game - even should it be tied 2-2 they would win by virtue of the points gained - this in essence makes it a dead rubber. You may argue that that is well deserved as they have placed higher than their opponent - well remember that may also have been decided by a tiebreaker - or indeed by the smallest of margins due to sick beat or the coldest of hands.
So i think unless a team wins 3 of the 4 HU games, the 4th game must count. And if it is then tied, its down to the Team Captains to bring it home for their team in the same format as has or would have decided the medal places.
+1
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You know...like the Premier League...you win the most games, you finish top..you"re the best.
Or.....
like the Championship, where you finish 3rd and can be 18 points clear of 6th, but still have to go through the Playoffs to get promotion where in past seasons youd have been automatically promoted!
Pros and Cons for both IMO - and you can give examples of outcomes which can re-enforce either argument.
But ultimately, the SNGs are for qualification - HU games for the medals - a la driving for show, putting for dough. Its the format, same for all, all aware of it going in to it, none can complain thereafter.
Very much looking forward to it - absolutely love team games.
Mark,
Do we have an answer to the original points though?
What if the HU goes 2-2...what will be the deciding factor?
You already know my opinion :)
Certainly do mate - and as with all opinions - respected it is also.
I dont know if there is a precedent for this - but my view would be that if the Heads Up for either of the medals game goes 2-2, then the Team Captains playoff in a sudden death HU game for the win.
Id give the reason for this to be that if the team who has scored the most points goes 2-1 up, they have already won the game - even should it be tied 2-2 they would win by virtue of the points gained - this in essence makes it a dead rubber. You may argue that that is well deserved as they have placed higher than their opponent - well remember that may also have been decided by a tiebreaker - or indeed by the smallest of margins due to sick beat or the coldest of hands.
So i think unless a team wins 3 of the 4 HU games, the 4th game must count. And if it is then tied, its down to the Team Captains to bring it home for their team in the same format as has or would have decided the medal places.
in Stu we trust! :o
:-\
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I dont know if there is a precedent for this - but my view would be that if the Heads Up for either of the medals game goes 2-2, then the Team Captains playoff in a sudden death HU game for the win.
Id give the reason for this to be that if the team who has scored the most points goes 2-1 up, they have already won the game - even should it be tied 2-2 they would win by virtue of the points gained - this in essence makes it a dead rubber. You may argue that that is well deserved as they have placed higher than their opponent - well remember that may also have been decided by a tiebreaker - or indeed by the smallest of margins due to sick beat or the coldest of hands.
So i think unless a team wins 3 of the 4 HU games, the 4th game must count. And if it is then tied, its down to the Team Captains to bring it home for their team in the same format as has or would have decided the medal places.
Good points all round...
I think in the past we"ve had teams of 5 [?] (my memory fades..it"s a beer thing) so this wasn"t an issue.
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Surely the sudden death should be captains choice if we are going with a sudden death.
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I dont know if there is a precedent for this - but my view would be that if the Heads Up for either of the medals game goes 2-2, then the Team Captains playoff in a sudden death HU game for the win.
Id give the reason for this to be that if the team who has scored the most points goes 2-1 up, they have already won the game - even should it be tied 2-2 they would win by virtue of the points gained - this in essence makes it a dead rubber. You may argue that that is well deserved as they have placed higher than their opponent - well remember that may also have been decided by a tiebreaker - or indeed by the smallest of margins due to sick beat or the coldest of hands.
So i think unless a team wins 3 of the 4 HU games, the 4th game must count. And if it is then tied, its down to the Team Captains to bring it home for their team in the same format as has or would have decided the medal places.
Good points all round...
I think in the past we"ve had teams of 5 [?] (my memory fades..it"s a beer thing) so this wasn"t an issue.
In the past there have only been three Heads-Ups in the play-offs.
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Surely the sudden death should be captains choice if we are going with a sudden death.
Disagree - in what will be a pressurised and intense situation, i think it the role of the Captain to "step up" and assume the responsibility - not pass it to a team member. They"ve been appointed or asked to be Captain for a reason - time to show why!
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Surely the sudden death should be captains choice if we are going with a sudden death.
Disagree - in what will be a pressurised and intense situation, i think it the role of the Captain to "step up" and assume the responsibility - not pass it to a team member. They"ve been appointed or asked to be Captain for a reason - time to show why!
Carl was drinking heavily?
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Surely the sudden death should be captains choice if we are going with a sudden death.
Disagree - in what will be a pressurised and intense situation, i think it the role of the Captain to "step up" and assume the responsibility - not pass it to a team member. They"ve been appointed or asked to be Captain for a reason - time to show why!
I Disagree with your disagreement ;)
Depends on the team. To use an analogy. I am Newport County fan and our captain is David Pipe who is also one of our best players and first name on the team sheet every week. He is a defender who runs his ass off every week for the team. However if the playoff final had gone to penalties I would have preferred not to see him take one as scoring goals is not his role in the team. This does not mean he is less of a leader or less of a player. This is just not his natural role in the team.
In APAT Poker. Let"s says Wales are playing England in the final of the WCOAP in March and it is tied 2-2 (obviously a silly situation as in reality Wales would already have won but it makes the point). Why would I pick myself to play a heads up match (I am bad at them this is not the form of poker I play) over potentially somebody like David Ruddling-Smith for example who is good. It"s an international event all players need to be able to handle this situation.
It should be the captain choice not APAT's choice who plays this in my opinion.
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Please stop with the football analogies. Why can there never be a discussion about poker on this forum without people suggesting what would happen in a slightly similar, but totally irrelevant, situation in football?
Please discuss the merits of your argument in the context of poker, not bloody football.
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Please stop with the football analogies. Why can there never be a discussion about poker on this forum without people suggesting what would happen in a slightly similar, but totally irrelevant, situation in football?
Please discuss the merits of your argument in the context of poker, not bloody football.
Rodders is scared of playing me heads up.
Will that do?
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Please stop with the football analogies. Why can there never be a discussion about poker on this forum without people suggesting what would happen in a slightly similar, but totally irrelevant, situation in football?
Please discuss the merits of your argument in the context of poker, not bloody football.
The analogy is totally accurate and relevant, it is not even remotely close to being irrelevant (that is obvious), it is referring to the different skill sets that people have, if you want I can explain it in terms of Six Sigma Lean (and I can even tell you all the merits of setting up a skills matrix and how changes in your business will affect this and how to use this to select the right person for a task/project) but that would be boring to most people unlike football - MOST PEOPLE BEFORE ANYBODY RESPONDS SAYING THEY FIND FOOTBALL BORING. There is no analogy that can be drawn from poker, that I know of but I don"t watch poker (it"s boring) so maybe there is.
In addition to that, debate works best when using analogy"s others would understand and most people do follow football. I won"t explain the point again as I am entirely sure my original post explained it so that everybody understood what I meant which is why the analogy was a good one.
Thank you.
Please stop with the football analogies. Why can there never be a discussion about poker on this forum without people suggesting what would happen in a slightly similar, but totally irrelevant, situation in football?
Please discuss the merits of your argument in the context of poker, not bloody football.
Rodders is scared of playing me heads up.
Will that do?
I will do if that is what the rules state has to happen but would not select myself to do so.
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Well then its simple.
Thats what the rules state. :)
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Please stop with the football analogies. Why can there never be a discussion about poker on this forum without people suggesting what would happen in a slightly similar, but totally irrelevant, situation in football?
Please discuss the merits of your argument in the context of poker, not bloody football.
Rodders is scared of playing me heads up.
Will that do?
FWIW I wouldnt be picking me to play a heads up sudden death match either!!!! But, looks like thems the rules taht have been decided on, so thats what we have to work with :p
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Please stop with the football analogies. Why can there never be a discussion about poker on this forum without people suggesting what would happen in a slightly similar, but totally irrelevant, situation in football?
Please discuss the merits of your argument in the context of poker, not bloody football.
Rodders is scared of playing me heads up.
Will that do?
FWIW I wouldnt be picking me to play a heads up sudden death match either!!!! But, looks like thems the rules taht have been decided on, so thats what we have to work with :p
Ah well, let"s hope we come first and second and the heads up ends up 2-2 then just for the sheer fun of the situation. It actually would be awesome.
Actually Carl Vs Warren would be something to see as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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What if a team has a non-playing captain?
Just asking
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Or, like in the worlds, I was the one asking ( if the HU was to be played 1/2 at a time), that I wanted to be the 5th player... some people like it, some don"t....
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Agree that captains should be allowed to nominate.
A captains role is to be the right thing for his team and make decisions that benefit the team.
Also that captain may have had a bad weekend at the tables, may not feel well, may have a HU specialist in there team etc.
A captains job is to get the best from his team and make the right decisions to benefit the team. Not to do everything for the team.
Doesn"t matter to us though as we will crush the HU 3-0.......just gotta worry about getting to the HU 1st lol
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Curious fact: Ireland and Wales have won most of the team events - yet neither has ever taken part in a Heads-Up play-off.
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Been some very good responses here in context to a drawn rubber in the HU..
As a captain I would relish the chance to secure victory for my team.
Rob also has a valid point.. What if say Scotland are drawing 2-2 HU? Gordon being a non playing skip??
I will go with what rules are put in place..
BUT....
I agree 100% with Rodders, it should be captains pick!!
I would pick my team member who has scored the most points for the team, unless he would prefer to stand down and let another player take the place.. As a captain it is my job to ensure the team perform to the best of their abilities and any edge in getting the win is of upmost importance.. If I had a player who had scored consistently high and was a HU specialist I would pick them every time..
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Curious fact: Ireland and Wales have won most of the team events - yet neither has ever taken part in a Heads-Up play-off.
I think the HU element was only introduced after those wins.
Stoke for one...and I recall another at DTD (I think).
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Have to add my tuppence here also.
In my humble opinion it has to be the captain"s choice.
APAT have no say in the strategy captain"s employ in selecting their team, or assigning specific players to specific tables throughout the event. Similarly, I don"t believe we should have any say in whether a captain would pick himself or a team mate to play a deciding heads up match.
What the captain must always take is responsibility for making the decision as to who would play in a final heads up scenario, which I guess is no less important than playing the decider itself.
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Have to add my tuppence here also.
In my humble opinion it has to be the captain"s choice.
APAT have no say in the strategy captain"s employ in selecting their team, or assigning specific players to specific tables throughout the event. Similarly, I don"t believe we should have any say in whether a captain would pick himself or a team mate to play a deciding heads up match.
What the captain must always take is responsibility for making the decision as to who would play in a final heads up scenario, which I guess is no less important than playing the decider itself.
+1
Basically what I meant to say aswell as Rodders, but obv put into better grammar..
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OK, I am now confused *lol* it happens often don"t worry.
Is it Captain Vs Captain or Captains choice. I was looking forward to getting crushed by Warren you know.
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Steve, could you please explain what "six sigma lean" is.
I am aware of " six sigma" and "lean" and have even heard of the modern "lean six sigma" but "six sigma lean" is new on me.
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Steve, could you please explain what "six sigma lean" is.
I am aware of " six sigma" and "lean" and have even heard of the modern "lean six sigma" but "six sigma lean" is new on me.
Hmm apparently not *lol*, at the moment where I am concerned it seems to consist of making lot"s of graphs, looking at lot"s of data and getting nowhere, how efficient of me :-). But Yeah OK six sigma lean is wrong and actually makes no sense at all, event though I am still going to say it as I am a muppet.
However I reckon you could create a skills matrix (based on this) to select a heads up players based on the data if you made all your team play 100 HU matches against the same opponents at the same stakes, calculated and plotted accurate results and expected EV? Take out any results positive if negative that were the results of a bad beat either way (eliminate special causes). That would maximise your chances of success right? So the player who was performing best would not always be the captain? Sorry that"s the best I can do off the top of my head at the moment, hopefully it makes the point it"s like a game of football isn"t it :-)
I was in a very bad mood yesterday (mainly due to a continuous improvement project I am stuck with in work which is not going well, maybe because I am mixing up the basic concepts it seems *lol*). I am better today though.
Can we go back to talking about how Stu is going to beat me at heads up later please.
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Steve, could you please explain what "six sigma lean" is.
I am aware of " six sigma" and "lean" and have even heard of the modern "lean six sigma" but "six sigma lean" is new on me.
Hmm apparently not *lol*, at the moment where I am concerned it seems to consist of making lot"s of graphs, looking at lot"s of data and getting nowhere, how efficient of me :-). But Yeah OK six sigma lean is wrong and actually makes no sense at all, event though I am still going to say it as I am a muppet.
However I reckon you could create a skills matrix (based on this) to select a heads up players based on the data if you made all your team play 100 HU matches against the same opponents at the same stakes, calculated and plotted accurate results and expected EV? Take out any results positive if negative that were the results of a bad beat either way (eliminate special causes). That would maximise your chances of success right? So the player who was performing best would not always be the captain? Sorry that"s the best I can do off the top of my head at the moment, hopefully it makes the point it"s like a game of football isn"t it :-)
I was in a very bad mood yesterday (mainly due to a continuous improvement project I am stuck with in work which is not going well, maybe because I am mixing up the basic concepts it seems *lol*). I am better today though.
Can we go back to talking about how Stu is going to beat me at heads up later please.
Poor Stu. To be fair to him, he decided he"d had enough at around 1am ish and headed for bed. Except that he didn"t manage to stay in the bed all night. He was found on the bedroom floor this morning with Archie (our dog) thrown down nearby. All that was missing was a ciggy hanging out of Arch"s mouth. lololololol
Around 9am this morning he finally surfaced after having his face licked off by the two dogs.
Not sure what all this means for his heads up matches later, but I"m sure you"ll have fun with it. :D