Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: amcgrath1uk on March 03, 2014, 17:36:05 PM
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I played the £20 deepstack at Leo"s in Liverpool on Saturday night and this pretty interesting scenario came up.
We"re playing 7 handed with 15 left in the tournament in total.
I"ve been playing fairly aggressively ( for me anyway) and have worked my way up to approx 120k at 2k/4k blinds.
I"ve raised frequently into the big stack at the table ( approx 350k), and left most of the rest alone... however, in this hand I"m raising into the tightest player on the table.
I"m UTG + 1, and raise to 9k with 8c 7c and the bb calls ( approx 200k)
The flop comes ad1 2c 4c
The bb checks, what do you do now?
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Aren"t there normally 3 cards on the flop? ;)
Looseish open, but depends how table has been playing. Anyway, regardless of the third card, I cbet whatever size cbet is your norm. I"d guess about 50-60% pot or so.
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Aren"t there normally 3 cards on the flop? ;)
Looseish open, but depends how table has been playing. Anyway, regardless of the third card, I cbet whatever size cbet is your norm. I"d guess about 50-60% pot or so.
I can see 3 cards on mine :/
Red Ace, 2 and 4 clubs
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I think with the call I would put him on at least an A s so just check for a free card in this instance ,
I think he"s gonna re-raise you so check
What u gonna do if you raise and he jams , so a free card would suit me at this time
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How much are you planning to bet for him to be jamming?!!?!
I bet out for about 11k and expect him to fold fairly often. If he is a tight player do we not think he raises here with an A? Perfect flop for us to bet at IMO, as we actually have a bit of it.
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Min raise pre, the extra 1K won"t be affecting any villains decisions.
I like a c bet now.
30% pot seems plenty to me and again I don"t expect 30% or 50% to change villains decision much if at all. I don"t expect villain to be folding any one pair hands but can get lots of other hands to fold that we are happy to see folding now - broadways, connectors etc. Even a tight villain will be peeling a lot more than just Ax so that doesn"t worry me.
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Aren"t there normally 3 cards on the flop? ;)
Looseish open, but depends how table has been playing. Anyway, regardless of the third card, I cbet whatever size cbet is your norm. I"d guess about 50-60% pot or so.
I can see 3 cards on mine :/
Red Ace, 2 and 4 clubs
Strange, I just have the 2c and the 4c on mine (Chrome).
Now I"m looking for it I actually don"t have the Ace of Diamonds card image to click on now I"m making this post.
So with the Ace being there you can cbet towards the lower end of your bet sizing here if your intention is to pot control the hell out of this hand. If however you fancy a chance of a double up, then a half pot cbet gives you two 2/3 pot barrels to get it all in by the river.
If your opponent is the perceptive sort, then varying your bet sizing may not be the best idea - what has your standard been?
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I think with the call I would put him on at least an A s so just check for a free card in this instance ,
I think he"s gonna re-raise you so check
What u gonna do if you raise and he jams , so a free card would suit me at this time
This is scared thinking, A"s are a huge part of our perceived range so we should cbet 100% here, especially so since we have the flushdraw. The problem with the free card option is that our equity takes a big drop on missed turns.
If villain has a tightish 22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo
we are ~40% on this flop. When we miss the turn that number is almost halved to ~ 22%.
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I"d have to have a read not to c-bet here, just don"t need to bet more than half pot, most live players at this level don"t really pick up bet sizes, just bet 8-9k again as a default
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Aren"t there normally 3 cards on the flop? ;)
Looseish open, but depends how table has been playing. Anyway, regardless of the third card, I cbet whatever size cbet is your norm. I"d guess about 50-60% pot or so.
I can see 3 cards on mine :/
Red Ace, 2 and 4 clubs
Strange, I just have the 2c and the 4c on mine (Chrome).
Now I"m looking for it I actually don"t have the Ace of Diamonds card image to click on now I"m making this post.
So with the Ace being there you can cbet towards the lower end of your bet sizing here if your intention is to pot control the hell out of this hand. If however you fancy a chance of a double up, then a half pot cbet gives you two 2/3 pot barrels to get it all in by the river.
If your opponent is the perceptive sort, then varying your bet sizing may not be the best idea - what has your standard been?
Every c-bet I"ve made has been between 45-65% of pot. There"s 20k+antes in the pot, so approx 24k in total.
Min raise pre, the extra 1K won"t be affecting any villains decisions.
I like a c bet now.
30% pot seems plenty to me and again I don"t expect 30% or 50% to change villains decision much if at all. I don"t expect villain to be folding any one pair hands but can get lots of other hands to fold that we are happy to see folding now - broadways, connectors etc. Even a tight villain will be peeling a lot more than just Ax so that doesn"t worry me.
I was min betting + a tiny bit every time I raised, therefore the reasoning in my bet sizing. 30% of pot to me seems a little small, as that would be in essence less than my initial raise?
How much are you planning to bet for him to be jamming?!!?!
I bet out for about 11k and expect him to fold fairly often. If he is a tight player do we not think he raises here with an A? Perfect flop for us to bet at IMO, as we actually have a bit of it.
That"s pretty much the reasoning I had in mind when I did c-bet.
I think with the call I would put him on at least an A s so just check for a free card in this instance ,
I think he"s gonna re-raise you so check
What u gonna do if you raise and he jams , so a free card would suit me at this time
If he jams in this instance, he"d be betting nearly 200k into a 24k~ + my bet size. He might 3 bet, call or fold, but I would never expect a jam in this instance.
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I"m liking the feedback so far.
What happened next:
I did c-bet the flop to 13k, and after not a lot of thought, he reraises to 38k.
To me there"s a lot to think about here.
1) He"s seen the cards I"ve raised with a couple of times, I"ve been mega strong, and knowing that, thinks I may be trying it on?
2) He has Ax and thinks he can get me off the pot
3) He"s protecting a hand he has against the flush draw.
4) Compared to his previous bets, he"s made this one relatively quickly
The decision here obviously is: fold/call/raise/shove.
What"s the order we do the above?
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Fold and its not close.
No where near deep enough to chase a flush draw with less than 100K back. Player as described has Ax a lot of the time here and is seeing top pair and looking to pile in money. Sets out there too.
If he has decided to bluff/semi bluff then he will often choose better flush draws than yours to do it with.
Smaller bets pre and on flop will give us all this information for that little bit cheaper as well.
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I know it sucks bet folding a flush draw but this does not make checking back the flop better either.
Assuming you jammed and he folded 9,10 of clubs or something...
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Fold and its not close.
No where near deep enough to chase a flush draw with less than 100K back. Player as described has Ax a lot of the time here and is seeing top pair and looking to pile in money. Sets out there too.
If he has decided to bluff/semi bluff then he will often choose better flush draws than yours to do it with.
Smaller bets pre and on flop will give us all this information for that little bit cheaper as well.
This
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Fold and its not close.
No where near deep enough to chase a flush draw with less than 100K back. Player as described has Ax a lot of the time here and is seeing top pair and looking to pile in money. Sets out there too.
If he has decided to bluff/semi bluff then he will often choose better flush draws than yours to do it with.
Smaller bets pre and on flop will give us all this information for that little bit cheaper as well.
This
+1
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So, against virtually any hand we"re approx 36% to win assuming it goes all in.
Is there not even the thought to a call here, as it"s ~30% of my chips?
I don"t tend to take a long time over decisions, especially when I"ve got someone waiting for me to win/get knocked out, but I did take approx 2 mins to decide on what to do with this one.
I"ll reveal what I did tomorrow morning.
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I"m liking the feedback so far.
What happened next:
I did c-bet the flop to 13k, and after not a lot of thought, he reraises to 38k.
4) Compared to his previous bets, he"s made this one relatively quickly
Just an addendum (obv I was there and saw the hand).
This was pretty much a snap raise. Asa bet the 13k and as soon as the dealer announced the bet size he was counting the chips out for the raise. No thought in there whatsoever, definitely seemed premeditated.
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So, against virtually any hand we"re approx 36% to win assuming it goes all in.
Is there not even the thought to a call here, as it"s ~30% of my chips?
I don"t tend to take a long time over decisions, especially when I"ve got someone waiting for me to win/get knocked out, but I did take approx 2 mins to decide on what to do with this one.
I"ll reveal what I did tomorrow morning.
You"re probably not 36% if we include all the Axcc hands in his range.
Bet folding this feels pretty yuck, but feels appropriate.
If we give him a range of 22, 44 a lot of AXcc and maybe AcXx. I"m on my iPad so can"t stove this, but if he has the bigger flush draw we"re potentially dead on the turn.
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Have only browsed this topic briefly, but main issue for me is our bet sizing.
Open for 8, c-bet 8-9.
Oh and fold to the c-raise for the reasons mentioned above
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My thoughts to points raised so far:
Preflop raise - Are we min raising every hand? I"m more than comfortable min raising, but that *little* extra tends to make people think more.
Continuation bet - I want to win the pot. 8k/9k into approx 22k isn"t going to win that often. 13k imo will do more often. Yes, it does mean that any possible 3 bet will be slightly higher, and make a decision more difficult, but the here and now I want to win the pot. Again, my bet sizing is no different than at any other time.
Perception of opponent - Above all, this is the most important. The opponent has 3 bet us in this situation, but he is he perceiving that because I"ve shown strength, and good hands often, is he taking advantage?
How much are you planning to bet for him to be jamming?!!?!
I bet out for about 11k and expect him to fold fairly often. If he is a tight player do we not think he raises here with an A? Perfect flop for us to bet at IMO, as we actually have a bit of it.
This was my thought process. I believed I could get him to fold with a standard c bet, that did not work. But imo, we have a well disguised hand, we have a tight opponent who hasn"t raised preflop, and imo he was taking advantage of being a tight player.
The result:
After 2 minutes of thinking time, weighing up the relevant chipstacks, and the exact amounts of the relevant chips I had, I very deliberately took back my initial raise, took a 5k off my pile of chips, and put the rest out as a 4 bet, which added up to a min re-reraise of 65k. After 15 seconds or so, he folded. I don"t think my opponent realised it was a min reraise, but I know it signified strength, rather than just an all in shove.
Thoughts?
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My thoughts to points raised so far:
Preflop raise - Are we min raising every hand? I"m more than comfortable min raising, but that *little* extra tends to make people think more.
Continuation bet - I want to win the pot. 8k/9k into approx 22k isn"t going to win that often. 13k imo will do more often. Yes, it does mean that any possible 3 bet will be slightly higher, and make a decision more difficult, but the here and now I want to win the pot. Again, my bet sizing is no different than at any other time.
Perception of opponent - Above all, this is the most important. The opponent has 3 bet us in this situation, but he is he perceiving that because I"ve shown strength, and good hands often, is he taking advantage?
How much are you planning to bet for him to be jamming?!!?!
I bet out for about 11k and expect him to fold fairly often. If he is a tight player do we not think he raises here with an A? Perfect flop for us to bet at IMO, as we actually have a bit of it.
This was my thought process. I believed I could get him to fold with a standard c bet, that did not work. But imo, we have a well disguised hand, we have a tight opponent who hasn"t raised preflop, and imo he was taking advantage of being a tight player.
The result:
After 2 minutes of thinking time, weighing up the relevant chipstacks, and the exact amounts of the relevant chips I had, I very deliberately took back my initial raise, took a 5k off my pile of chips, and put the rest out as a 4 bet, which added up to a min re-reraise of 65k. After 15 seconds or so, he folded. I don"t think my opponent realised it was a min reraise, but I know it signified strength, rather than just an all in shove.
Thoughts?
How long are the levels in this???
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My thoughts to points raised so far:
Preflop raise - Are we min raising every hand? I"m more than comfortable min raising, but that *little* extra tends to make people think more.
Continuation bet - I want to win the pot. 8k/9k into approx 22k isn"t going to win that often. 13k imo will do more often. Yes, it does mean that any possible 3 bet will be slightly higher, and make a decision more difficult, but the here and now I want to win the pot. Again, my bet sizing is no different than at any other time.
Perception of opponent - Above all, this is the most important. The opponent has 3 bet us in this situation, but he is he perceiving that because I"ve shown strength, and good hands often, is he taking advantage?
How much are you planning to bet for him to be jamming?!!?!
I bet out for about 11k and expect him to fold fairly often. If he is a tight player do we not think he raises here with an A? Perfect flop for us to bet at IMO, as we actually have a bit of it.
This was my thought process. I believed I could get him to fold with a standard c bet, that did not work. But imo, we have a well disguised hand, we have a tight opponent who hasn"t raised preflop, and imo he was taking advantage of being a tight player.
The result:
After 2 minutes of thinking time, weighing up the relevant chipstacks, and the exact amounts of the relevant chips I had, I very deliberately took back my initial raise, took a 5k off my pile of chips, and put the rest out as a 4 bet, which added up to a min re-reraise of 65k. After 15 seconds or so, he folded. I don"t think my opponent realised it was a min reraise, but I know it signified strength, rather than just an all in shove.
Thoughts?
How long are the levels in this???
Was either 20/25 mins, can"t honestly remember
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I dont have much more to add Asa.
Yes - min raising every hand. It really won"t make a difference when your deep in a tournament. If people want to start peeling you then we will be playing better than them post flop anyway so fine.
Ditto on C bet sizing. 9K into 22K compared to 13K won"t make a difference on this board. I might even go smaller. He either has a hand to continue with or not, its unlikely he is going to see you bet 9K and just spite peel KQ or something.
It worked this time but I don"t like it. Your just going to called by everthing that is beating you and given player type, your going to be called more often that your going to get folds. No need to level ourselves into thinking this guy is tight, he knows I know that so he is bluffing.
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I dont have much more to add Asa.
Yes - min raising every hand. It really won"t make a difference when your deep in a tournament. If people want to start peeling you then we will be playing better than them post flop anyway so fine.
Ditto on C bet sizing. 9K into 22K compared to 13K won"t make a difference on this board. I might even go smaller. He either has a hand to continue with or not, its unlikely he is going to see you bet 9K and just spite peel KQ or something.
It worked this time but I don"t like it. Your just going to called by everthing that is beating you and given player type, your going to be called more often that your going to get folds. No need to level ourselves into thinking this guy is tight, he knows I know that so he is bluffing.
^^^ Couldn"t put it better tbh.
Often in poker we want to make our mistakes at the correct time, I suspect that"s what happened here.
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I dont have much more to add Asa.
Yes - min raising every hand. It really won"t make a difference when your deep in a tournament. If people want to start peeling you then we will be playing better than them post flop anyway so fine.
Ditto on C bet sizing. 9K into 22K compared to 13K won"t make a difference on this board. I might even go smaller. He either has a hand to continue with or not, its unlikely he is going to see you bet 9K and just spite peel KQ or something.
It worked this time but I don"t like it. Your just going to called by everthing that is beating you and given player type, your going to be called more often that your going to get folds. No need to level ourselves into thinking this guy is tight, he knows I know that so he is bluffing.
^^^ Couldn"t put it better tbh.
Often in poker we want to make our mistakes at the correct time, I suspect that"s what happened here.
ditto
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I dont have much more to add Asa.
Yes - min raising every hand. It really won"t make a difference when your deep in a tournament. If people want to start peeling you then we will be playing better than them post flop anyway so fine.
Ditto on C bet sizing. 9K into 22K compared to 13K won"t make a difference on this board. I might even go smaller. He either has a hand to continue with or not, its unlikely he is going to see you bet 9K and just spite peel KQ or something.
one further note on bet sizing
If u feel u have an edge over the field you want to make the stacks as deep as possible, 40-60% for flop and turn allows this (whilst also giving us greater possibilities for bombing river etc)
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My thoughts to points raised so far:
Preflop raise - Are we min raising every hand? I"m more than comfortable min raising, but that *little* extra tends to make people think more.
Continuation bet - I want to win the pot. 8k/9k into approx 22k isn"t going to win that often. 13k imo will do more often. Yes, it does mean that any possible 3 bet will be slightly higher, and make a decision more difficult, but the here and now I want to win the pot. Again, my bet sizing is no different than at any other time.
Perception of opponent - Above all, this is the most important. The opponent has 3 bet us in this situation, but he is he perceiving that because I"ve shown strength, and good hands often, is he taking advantage?
How much are you planning to bet for him to be jamming?!!?!
I bet out for about 11k and expect him to fold fairly often. If he is a tight player do we not think he raises here with an A? Perfect flop for us to bet at IMO, as we actually have a bit of it.
This was my thought process. I believed I could get him to fold with a standard c bet, that did not work. But imo, we have a well disguised hand, we have a tight opponent who hasn"t raised preflop, and imo he was taking advantage of being a tight player.
The result:
After 2 minutes of thinking time, weighing up the relevant chipstacks, and the exact amounts of the relevant chips I had, I very deliberately took back my initial raise, took a 5k off my pile of chips, and put the rest out as a 4 bet, which added up to a min re-reraise of 65k. After 15 seconds or so, he folded. I don"t think my opponent realised it was a min reraise, but I know it signified strength, rather than just an all in shove.
Thoughts?
How long are the levels in this???
20 mins.
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2 minutes thunking time in a £20 comp with a 20 minute clock?
Fold pre
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Interesting debate on the topic of shot clocks over on Blonde after this appeared.
http://calvinayre.com/2014/03/06/poker/are-the-wpt-about-to-change-the-face-of-live-tournament-poker/
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2 minutes thunking time in a £20 comp with a 20 minute clock?
Fold pre
Ahh taking notes from the G2L school of posting I see Dave...
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2 minutes thunking time in a £20 comp with a 20 minute clock?
Fold pre
Ahh taking notes from the G2L school of posting I see Dave...
not at all Stu, just making the point that live games are slow enough without people taking 2 minutes from a 20 minute clock regardless of how "interesting" the decision may be.
i can understand it in the WSOP ME but that"s a 2 hour clock