Amateur Poker Association & Tour

Poker Forum => Staker Exchange => Topic started by: Riddled on April 29, 2014, 18:57:45 PM

Title: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 29, 2014, 18:57:45 PM
Hi All,

For those of you who don"t know me, I"m a PLO monster with a fairly decent live record. I"ll be selling 70% of myself but would rather have a few people have a sweat as opposed to being someones horse and so will be limiting action to 10% a person.

Would be a 70/30 deal with stakeback in favour of the backer.

i.e. if I min cash for 3k and had sold 70% of myself backer breakdown would be as follows,

original stake back - $1050
share of winnings   -$735
Total                        -$1785

For the backers benefit, I will also absorb all fx costs and transfer fees.


As above I"m aiming to sell 70% myself but will play if I sell at least 50%.

Any queries let me know.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: CW86 on April 29, 2014, 21:51:03 PM
You should probably tell people who you actually are Mike so they will be interested in getting involved....


just a thought ;D
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 29, 2014, 21:58:11 PM
I thought PLO monster would be enough.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: CW86 on April 29, 2014, 23:10:05 PM
nope, u thought wrong. if u were u id even put your name in the thread title
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: PokerRoyalFlush9 on April 29, 2014, 23:37:46 PM
He is a beast........you know you want to snap his action up.....there is a reason I want to be put down for 10% please $150 right?
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 30, 2014, 08:16:43 AM
$150 is correct good sir.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: PokerRoyalFlush9 on April 30, 2014, 09:36:59 AM
Let me know when you need it.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Des on April 30, 2014, 09:45:44 AM
To give yourself the best chance of selling this out Mike, you should tell people who you are - very few will know you by "Riddled" - and point to some of your results.  The APAT ones alone will get people interested, but you are asking them to invest their money in you, so you should make a pitch.

Telling people clearly how much 1% / 5% / 10% will cost them, and how you"d expect payment, is also a good idea.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 30, 2014, 19:03:21 PM
If it hasn"t become obvious yet, I clearly have never done the whole staking thing before, and I will now respond to all of the advice have received (many thanks all).

I am Michael Perry, I certainly don"t get to play as much live PLO as I would like, as the game just isn"t there yet this side of the pond. One of my main reasons for coming to APAT is the opportunity to play all these mixed games in a really relaxed atmosphere (again shout out to all the APAT organizers and core APAT crowd).

My results in the live PLO events I have played are as follows,

Aug 2012 - bubbled (I think 12th) the PLO at the APAT nationals - never really got going and got to a spot where I just had to go with big pairs.

Mar 2013 - won it - was never really at risk though I was fortunate that I managed to get in two decent size pots in the run up to final table with my opponent drawing dead.

Aug 2013 - didn"t go deep - can"t recall exactly, but I think I get it in with top set against a wrap and don"t fade.

Mar 2013 - 9th in the PLO8 - lose a massive hand with 3 tables left where I have repotted pre with AAQJ (ds) into AQ109 (os) though I have his suit dominated - board comes 997 - I have a flush draw and he moves in for I think about 2/3 pot. That crippled me and to be honest I was fortunate to hit final table, but some sickness on the other table saw a 4 way all in with 2 people hitting the rail.
               - 2nd in the PLO - had a fairly decent chip lead throughout - critical hand for me was getting it in with top set vs bottom 2 pair vs aces +fd - I held there and moved to like 4/5 times average. Get to heads up with a 2 to 1 chip lead and immediately get it in with two pair vs. miniwrap - he hits the turn and I miss my redraw - swung the momentum in the guys favor, again no complaints about second.


The only reason I am looking for staking is that I will be self funding in to a bunch of other comps, and so would rather take a variance reducing approach to the WSOP event.

Hope this helps and if someone wiser than me could insert a picture of me below this post (cue the hilarity) I would be grateful.

Cheers,

Mike
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 30, 2014, 19:05:08 PM
In terms of money I will require the money in June and easiest way will be through stars, though can do bank transfer if people need to do that.

% wise

1% - $15
5% - $75
10% - $150
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: s4ooter on April 30, 2014, 19:07:20 PM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LN0soCKhyFM/U1f0kE22hvI/AAAAAAAAAgU/r7LCcvcKLRw/w847-h563-no/DSC_0200.JPG)

Avoided the Rose West pic for you :)
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: s4ooter on April 30, 2014, 19:07:59 PM
Reserve 5% please
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 30, 2014, 19:11:18 PM
Thanks Dan on both counts,

for the record, I"m the ruggedly handsome guy wearing the hoody with the 1000 mile stare.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Chipaccrual on April 30, 2014, 21:36:45 PM

Thanks Dan on both counts,

for the record, I"m the ruggedly handsome guy wearing the hoody with the 1000 mile stare.


Could you make it easier for us please.

Are you the one on the left or the one on the right ?



I would take a piece of this, but am a little put off that it is a punt on just the one event, when you say you are self funding other events on the trip.  Would much prefer it if you were offering a smaller percentage across all of your schedule to help even out the variance for the backers aswell as yourself.

Not a criticiism, but hopefully useful feedback.



Leigh
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Chipaccrual on April 30, 2014, 21:44:39 PM
Also your numbers are at best confusing and at worst just plain wrong.


Buyin = $1500

You sell 70% of your action, so backers send you $1050

If you cash for $3000, then you should be returning $2100 to your backers (70% of your winnings)

With your method, you are returning their stake of $1050, and then splitting the profit 70/30, which effectively means you are selling your action at a premium.

If you bink a massive cash, then it becomes a lot less significant, but if you only min cashed, then we"re talking about a $400 swing.

Or am I missing something here ?
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: DodgyEnd (Tom APAT.be) on April 30, 2014, 21:56:29 PM

Also your numbers are at best confusing and at worst just plain wrong.


Buyin = $1500

You sell 70% of your action, so backers send you $1050

If you cash for $3000, then you should be returning $2100 to your backers (70% of your winnings)

With your method, you are returning their stake of $1050, and then splitting the profit 70/30, which effectively means you are selling your action at a premium.

If you bink a massive cash, then it becomes a lot less significant, but if you only min cashed, then we"re talking about a $400 swing.

Or am I missing something here ?


my thoughts as well... i would be considering to buy a piece, but only if the numbers are correct.

Obviously I don"t know you, so it"s hard to judge you as a player. But your results aren"t good enough to justify the markup that you are charging this way. (Again, I might be wrong as I don"t know you and I have no clue of what your online PLO results are; I can only judge from the live results on Hendon Mob).
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 30, 2014, 22:03:53 PM


Thanks Dan on both counts,

for the record, I"m the ruggedly handsome guy wearing the hoody with the 1000 mile stare.


Could you make it easier for us please.

Are you the one on the left or the one on the right ?



I would take a piece of this, but am a little put off that it is a punt on just the one event, when you say you are self funding other events on the trip.  Would much prefer it if you were offering a smaller percentage across all of your schedule to help even out the variance for the backers aswell as yourself.

Not a criticiism, but hopefully useful feedback.



Leigh


Leigh, you are right on all counts.

The idea is that I"m offering it as a sweat in an event that I know I have a decent edge in, but likewise can"t justify spending the whole amount.

I don"t want to engage in staking in other events for a variety of reasons, the foremost is that I would not be confident of being able to offer good value to the backer, i.e. I will play events that I want to play at the time, not necessarily planning events in advance. The WSOP event is the exception as the only events I would feel quite confident in are $1500 PLO8 and the $3000 PLO8, obviously favouring the cheaper option.

For example, there may be events I will play where I will drink during the event as it is still ultimately a holiday for me. I will obviously not do so in any event where I am backed.

I may also play events after being awake all night, playing any event in which I am backed I would have to plan my time accordingly so that I am well rested.





Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on April 30, 2014, 22:28:11 PM


Also your numbers are at best confusing and at worst just plain wrong.


Buyin = $1500

You sell 70% of your action, so backers send you $1050

If you cash for $3000, then you should be returning $2100 to your backers (70% of your winnings)

With your method, you are returning their stake of $1050, and then splitting the profit 70/30, which effectively means you are selling your action at a premium.

If you bink a massive cash, then it becomes a lot less significant, but if you only min cashed, then we"re talking about a $400 swing.

Or am I missing something here ?


my thoughts as well... i would be considering to buy a piece, but only if the numbers are correct.

Obviously I don"t know you, so it"s hard to judge you as a player. But your results aren"t good enough to justify the markup that you are charging this way. (Again, I might be wrong as I don"t know you and I have no clue of what your online PLO results are; I can only judge from the live results on Hendon Mob).



In regards to the premium I am confident that I have a fairly decent edge, however the premium would mainly be to cover exchange rate costs and also contribute towards time and expenses. By putting it in as a premium it means that these costs are only shared in the event of a return as opposed to selling the % at a true premium (i.e. 10% for $180)

If the concensus is that the premium is too much, I would have to consider whether I play the event with backers, or self fund myself into say $500 worth of wsop sats.

My true motive is simply that it would be cool to play a world series event while I"m in Vegas but don"t want to invest 20% of my bankroll to do so.

I hope this has helped.

Cheers,

Mike




Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: MintTrav on April 30, 2014, 23:03:24 PM
Michael, I might have been interested in taking a bit but I"m afraid I"m still a bit confused.

I don"t understand how you came to the $735 figure. Could you explain it please? That amount is 70% of $1,050, but that wouldn"t make sense, so I"m not sure how you got to that answer.

Perhaps you could give a couple of illustrations of amounts returned for different-sized wins and how you calculate them, so we understand what is being offered.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: dwh103 on April 30, 2014, 23:45:42 PM
Note: I am the other party travelling with Mike this summer, and we discussed the approach to Vegas, possible backing etc. Feel free to take this post as biased, or motivated by self/friend interest, but it"s my endeavour to be fair and balanced here.



You"re somewhat right Leigh - the numbers are correct, but agree they are very confusing. Mike"s never sold action before, so the lack of clarity is from inexperience imo - I"ve let him know my opinion and I"m sure he"ll be on to tidy things up when he can.

However I do believe you"re overstating the impact of the "premium" - it"s not really a premium in the traditional sense of the word (i.e.selling 10% for $165, rather than $150). I know you"re well involved in staking and have no wish to be patronising, but for the benefit of those who may be less comfortable.

There is no "premium payable" unless Mike cashes. The 70/30 split is basically sharing his ROI in this tournament, it basically gives him the equivalent of a markup (or premium if you prefer) only if he cashes. A min cash of $3k would be the equivalent of buying a piece at approx 1.08 markup, a $100k cash would be the equivalent of 1.42, though I"m sure at that point no-one would be too disappointed.

As we all should, if we look at the long term:

- If the horse is actually -EV, then everyone"s only paid spot rates
- If the horse is +EV, i.e. +50% long run ROI, then backers on average get 35%, and the horse gets 15% for their time, effort and expenses.

Scale the above up or down, simply means that as long as the horse is +EV, then it"s a profitable proposition for both parties, as opposed to selling at pure spot (where basically the horse plays for free) or selling at a premium upfront (where the backers/horse have to guess at a more precise long term ROI).

In my opinion a profit share arrangement is the only fair way (for both horse and backers) to do staking - as long as stakeback is included.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on May 01, 2014, 07:54:28 AM

Michael, I might have been interested in taking a bit but I"m afraid I"m still a bit confused.

I don"t understand how you came to the $735 figure. Could you explain it please? That amount is 70% of $1,050, but that wouldn"t make sense, so I"m not sure how you got to that answer.

Perhaps you could give a couple of illustrations of amounts returned for different-sized wins and how you calculate them, so we understand what is being offered.


I think Dave has explained it better than I have (Thanks Batman)

Lets go under the assumption that I sold 100% of my action.

Backers would pay a total of $1500 and I would incur all expenses related. If I didn"t do a profit split then it would be assumed that I get nothing in the event of a cash including no contribution to expenses.

I wouldn"t want or need 100% backing as I would like to have as much of myself as possible as I will always see myself as having a massive long run expected value against that field.

If you would like to pm me an email address I will set up a spreadsheet with an option to calculate potential returns.

Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: hi_am_chris on May 01, 2014, 22:58:44 PM
What makes you confident you have a decent edge against the field?

Online results? if so what are they?

Do you play online cash? If so what stakes? any graphs?

Live results other than the apats?
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: PokerRoyalFlush9 on May 01, 2014, 23:12:51 PM
I do not know Mr Perry well, but i am happy to take 10% on this. I am sure if he was not confident in his game I am sure he would not try and put up a staking request.I Look at staking as an investment and if he cash and i win some money good for us and if i do not win anything this time round there is always next time.A lot of you do not know me but i am not a big player (I have never had a winning year at poker since I started) so I took up staking and been lucky to pick the right ones (was lucky enough to have 10% in someone that put a stake up before Christmas and he chopped up a deal three handed).
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on May 05, 2014, 17:58:30 PM
Apologies, I haven"t been able to get on to the forum for a few days.

In response to some of the queries I am going to start another thread where I will attempt to play some PLO8 comps between now and the end of June. I unfortunately have exams over the next three weeks so will be relatively inactive until then.

It will have to be comps, not cash, because I don"t have the patience for full ring since zoom came along, and they only offer no-limit PLO8 (god knows why, the amount of times you"ll see 1/2 pot, 1/2 pot, 15 times pot is ridic).

Will post link when up and running.

Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: PokerRoyalFlush9 on May 05, 2014, 21:14:11 PM
I am still happy to take what I asked for in the 1st place
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Robbiebox on May 09, 2014, 20:02:15 PM
Michael will you post a link to your OPR?
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on May 29, 2014, 07:40:26 AM
Sorry for the delay in getting back to this, I"ve had accountancy exams recently and they sort of consumed my life.

In response to the queries I don"t pay many online mtts, mainly plo cash (This year I have played about 35k+ hands profitably).

My stars ID is MichaelPerry

Saturday I"ll try and get a schedule in but I"m also playing the 150 PLO in Aspers this Sunday.


Just to clarify I will also be playing this event now whatever backing I get,

15% gone.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Robbiebox on May 29, 2014, 09:43:24 AM
Hi Michael,
Your OPR stats don"t really back up the edge you claim. Do you have HM or Ptracker cash graphs that you can post?
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: mylesfdo on May 29, 2014, 10:31:37 AM


Also your numbers are at best confusing and at worst just plain wrong.


Buyin = $1500

You sell 70% of your action, so backers send you $1050

If you cash for $3000, then you should be returning $2100 to your backers (70% of your winnings)

With your method, you are returning their stake of $1050, and then splitting the profit 70/30, which effectively means you are selling your action at a premium.

If you bink a massive cash, then it becomes a lot less significant, but if you only min cashed, then we"re talking about a $400 swing.

Or am I missing something here ?


my thoughts as well... i would be considering to buy a piece, but only if the numbers are correct.

Obviously I don"t know you, so it"s hard to judge you as a player. But your results aren"t good enough to justify the markup that you are charging this way. (Again, I might be wrong as I don"t know you and I have no clue of what your online PLO results are; I can only judge from the live results on Hendon Mob).


What makes you confident you have a decent edge against the field?

Online results? if so what are they?

Do you play online cash? If so what stakes? any graphs?

Live results other than the apats?

Michael, I might have been interested in taking a bit but I"m afraid I"m still a bit confused.

I don"t understand how you came to the $735 figure. Could you explain it please? That amount is 70% of $1,050, but that wouldn"t make sense, so I"m not sure how you got to that answer.

Perhaps you could give a couple of illustrations of amounts returned for different-sized wins and how you calculate them, so we understand what is being offered.

Also your numbers are at best confusing and at worst just plain wrong.


Buyin = $1500

You sell 70% of your action, so backers send you $1050

If you cash for $3000, then you should be returning $2100 to your backers (70% of your winnings)

With your method, you are returning their stake of $1050, and then splitting the profit 70/30, which effectively means you are selling your action at a premium.

If you bink a massive cash, then it becomes a lot less significant, but if you only min cashed, then we"re talking about a $400 swing.

Or am I missing something here ?


+1 to all of the above.....would be interested in 5% if on an equal profit split.....in my staking/backing experiences unequal profit share usually comes into play when horse is selling 100% of themselves on a make up deal.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on May 30, 2014, 18:59:42 PM
OPR stats aren"t really that relevant due to the limited sample size (100 over 3 years), though I have been speaking to Dave H and he has explained that my stats aren"t perhaps as reassuring verifiable as they should be for this kind of staking event.

I have reconsidered my position and will sell a small amount at spot for those who do wish to have a flutter (including people who have already backed me.)

Apologies if this thread has been a bit amateur, I have obviously never sought staking before...
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Chipaccrual on May 30, 2014, 19:35:11 PM

OPR stats aren"t really that relevant due to the limited sample size (100 over 3 years), though I have been speaking to Dave H and he has explained that my stats aren"t perhaps as reassuring verifiable as they should be for this kind of staking event.

I have reconsidered my position and will sell a small amount at spot for those who do wish to have a flutter (including people who have already backed me.)

Apologies if this thread has been a bit amateur, I have obviously never sought staking before...


I"ll take 10% at spot    ;D
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Robbiebox on May 31, 2014, 01:25:00 AM

OPR stats aren"t really that relevant due to the limited sample size (100 over 3 years), though I have been speaking to Dave H and he has explained that my stats aren"t perhaps as reassuring verifiable as they should be for this kind of staking event.

I have reconsidered my position and will sell a small amount at spot for those who do wish to have a flutter (including people who have already backed me.)

Apologies if this thread has been a bit amateur, I have obviously never sought staking before...


Fair enough, can you post the 35kcash games graph then?
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: jayteejack on May 31, 2014, 04:13:20 AM
If any left I"ll take 5% at spot. Good luck us
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on May 31, 2014, 09:55:17 AM
Ok, given the change in stake structure I am going to cap the action there because I obviously want as much of myself as possible.

jayteejack - 5% ($75)
chipaccrual - 10% ($150)
PokerRoyalFlush9 - 10% ($150)

s400ter (I"l keep 5% reserved but can discuss any deal in Vegas :D)

Will pm closer to the time for the cash (stars transfer is easiest, but will give bank details if needed)

Other than that I will start a new thread at the time for some live updates,

Thanks all.

Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: PokerRoyalFlush9 on May 31, 2014, 15:52:59 PM

Ok, given the change in stake structure I am going to cap the action there because I obviously want as much of myself as possible.

jayteejack - 5% ($75)
chipaccrual - 10% ($150)
PokerRoyalFlush9 - 10% ($150)

s400ter (I"l keep 5% reserved but can discuss any deal in Vegas :D)

Will pm closer to the time for the cash (stars transfer is easiest, but will give bank details if needed)

Other than that I will start a new thread at the time for some live updates,

Thanks all.




Can I get bank details please
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on June 24, 2014, 16:49:09 PM
Hi All,

You can track my progress via poker news, chip counts on the live reporting.

Kicks off in about 3 hours and will post update as and when I can.

Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: DodgyEnd (Tom APAT.be) on June 24, 2014, 19:32:37 PM
good luck! I will be following your progress...
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: dwh103 on June 25, 2014, 00:37:19 AM
Me and Perry both having issues accessing APAT. He has bust, just before level 5. Will update later.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: Riddled on June 25, 2014, 04:08:24 AM
It was a day marred with ill luck. Was unable to access the chip count ap or apat site for updates.

Never got above starting stack.

Critical hand was nut boat running into quads in a hand I don"t play if I"m not in the SB.

At 25/50

I have JJ76 in SB, CO limps Button limps, I complete and BB checks.

Board J 10 8 - I check, BB checks, CO makes it 175, button calls, I call, BB passes
Turn   2       - I check, CO checks, Button bets 625, I call, CO passes
River   8       - I check, Button bets 1400 - given that there is no low the button is completely polarised so I just call and lose to quad 8s.

That left me with about 2k that I nursed for a couple of hours before doubling up a short stack with A278ds against shorties A2QJ which flops me nearly dead with a QJ10 flop.

With my 4bb stack I then managed to double up getting it in with A27K against a bag of spanners.

Killing blow was opening CO with A245ds and getting iso"d by new guy to the table. I call it off against A2QQ who flops a set leaving me with only back door outs.

All in all a pretty brutal first WSOP event by all accounts, made all the worse by the fact there was one person at my table who I"m not 100% sure new the rules.

Sorry I couldn"t report back with better news.

Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: MintTrav on June 25, 2014, 07:04:22 AM

there was one person at my table who I"m not 100% sure new the rules.


Pretty unlucky to go all that way and get drawn on the same table as Dave.
Title: Re: $1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
Post by: CW86 on June 25, 2014, 22:18:50 PM


there was one person at my table who I"m not 100% sure new the rules.


Pretty unlucky to go all that way and get drawn on the same table as Dave.


:)