Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: inthebelly on June 04, 2007, 00:03:13 AM
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although i never played the tournament this weekend i followed it on the excellent live update thread,was i the only one who felt it became very crapshooty from a long way out?
would love feed back from those who participated.
wasn"t the whole idea of these tournaments to give amateurs a taste of the structures offered in a pro tournament ?
personally i dont think a 40 min clock offers this as the whole tournament took less than 16 hours to complete.
i may b wrong here as i have no experience of going deep in an apat tourni so your views please
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A lot of thought has gone into the structures, refined and fed back after each event
10,000 starting chips, 40 minute clock..150-300 level included. Thats a "festival" structure
Not a single complaint about the structure from the players...interested to hear if they think otherwise on here
If the feedback overwhelmingly suggests change we will of course listen
In any large number freezeout event there is always a stage where medium stacks feel the pressure...typically 30 to 10 runners out and the start of the second day usually sees a lot of all-in poker..the stacks then consolidate and yesterday the final played out over 3 hours plus, or over four levels
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I played my first APAT event this weekend and personally i didnt think there was anything wrong with the structure - I knew about it before hand and knew roughly where i needed to be before each level began. I knew that after dinner the blinds were going to be at a level where short stacks only had one move so the plan was to be at least twice the starting chips. Those who decide to take it easy the first few levels will get caught out later in the day but those who keep their stack on a steady increase will constantly have more than 20 bb"s which i did most of the way - i only fell below this by the time we got to 800/1600 with 28000k but even then i never felt that i was in too much trouble, there were still good opportunities to get chips from others.
Have a plan of strategy in mind before the tourney starts and the structure isn"t a problem - the 6 outers on the river however is a different matter entirely!! :"(
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couldn`t agree more matt, being my first apat tourney, i felt the structure leaded itself to some interesting plays while still making sure you had to know where you were at each level.
the fact of not getting any hands for 2 hrs and a raising station at the other end of the table didnt help but still felt i did nothing wrong in my short stint in the tourney.
hope you can make the nuts league after your trip to spain (if you are the matt in between myself and mary)!!!
as for the apat and fitz staff they were all great and did a wonderful job during the weekend, and under some stressful times.
a completely enjoyable weekend and i for one cant wait for the next live game. ;D
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A lot of thought has gone into the structures, refined and fed back after each event
10,000 starting chips, 40 minute clock..150-300 level included. Thats a "festival" structure
Not a single complaint about the structure from the players...interested to hear if they think otherwise on here
If the feedback overwhelmingly suggests change we will of course listen
In any large number freezeout event there is always a stage where medium stacks feel the pressure...typically 30 to 10 runners out and the start of the second day usually sees a lot of all-in poker..the stacks then consolidate and yesterday the final played out over 3 hours plus, or over four levels
ive never played a festival event with a 40 min clock
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I have, with a 30 minute clock. Won it too! Miracle did happen.
typically 45 minute clocks in festival side events...so virtually comparable with this clock for the APAT events
main events are 1 hour plus usually
the problem here is we aim to finish midnight-ish night 1 and early on the second evening to allow working people to get home for the Monday morning
Without that we no doubt could run a longer clock
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hope you can make the nuts league after your trip to spain (if you are the matt in between myself and mary)!!!
Sorry squire i think you have me confused with another Matt, I"m the Matt who looked like "John Travolta" or "Don King"s Minder" depending on which page of the APAT live update you were reading :D
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Matt, you missed when I described your table as "Table Grand Theft Auto" on a chip count post at the break then?
:D
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Matt, you missed when I described your table as "Table Grand Theft Auto" on a chip count post at the break then?
:D
No i didnt miss it - i remember it saying "Table Monkey Grand Theft Auto" I wasnt sure if you were referencing the Leone family character you play in the game or you were implying that i was stealing a lot!! :D
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The tournament structure is one of the main reasons why the APAT live events appeal to me. It allows play early on and time to wait if things are not happening for you. You will always get stages of the tournament where the short stacks come under pressure and need to double up, everyone is aware of this from the start. No complaints about structure from me.
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I"m happy with the structure. There are a couple of points, most notably after the dinner break, where the blind increases put people under pressure but this is the same in festival events too.
The one criticism I do have from witnessing the Dublin event is that everything is allowed to drag out on day two, compared to the "military precision" of the day 1 timetable. Consequently, anyone involved in yesterday"s final table would"ve had no chance of getting home on the Sunday (which is one of the stated aims of APAT, as Tighty has alluded to here).
I had a 10pm flight booked yesterday, which was then subsequently delayed. At 10.30pm I was reading the updates from the departure gate and play was still going on. Tighty"s first post in this thread says that the final played out over 4 levels on day 2. Play started at 2.30pm. Something somewhere doesn"t add up.
The delays yesterday didn"t affect me as I made a "tactical" decision to go out on day 1 ::) but it does factor into my thinking for future live events. I don"t really want to have to eat into holiday time and incur travel costs for a Sunday night stopover for an event where I"m most likely to have gone out on day one. However, the evidence of yesterday suggests that this will be a necessity going forward.
Sheriff
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I"m happy with the structure. There are a couple of points, most notably after the dinner break, where the blind increases put people under pressure but this is the same in festival events too.
The one criticism I do have from witnessing the Dublin event is that everything is allowed to drag out on day two, compared to the "military precision" of the day 1 timetable. Consequently, anyone involved in yesterday"s final table would"ve had no chance of getting home on the Sunday (which is one of the stated aims of APAT, as Tighty has alluded to here).
I had a 10pm flight booked yesterday, which was then subsequently delayed. At 10.30pm I was reading the updates from the departure gate and play was still going on. Tighty"s first post in this thread says that the final played out over 4 levels on day 2. Play started at 2.30pm. Something somewhere doesn"t add up.
The delays yesterday didn"t affect me as I made a "tactical" decision to go out on day 1 ::) but it does factor into my thinking for future live events. I don"t really want to have to eat into holiday time and incur travel costs for a Sunday night stopover for an event where I"m most likely to have gone out on day one. However, the evidence of yesterday suggests that this will be a necessity going forward.
Sheriff
Play is slower on day 2, two hand for hand periods from 17th to 16th and 10th to 9th for example
As for four levels on the final I may be mistaken it may have been more. Anyway this event took much longer than others, all complete by 8.30-9pm...this time we had a lengthy heads up. Also we had a double-long break pre-final, a chip count issue pre-final etc etc it all added up
The aim in future will still be to complete at a good time on the final night, usually assuming for most people the next day will be a working day.
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I was happy with the structure, ideally would be great to have timeframe on the the 2nd day which is consistent for each event, so that we can determine if we can fly home that night, I agree the extra costs associated with hotel expenses and also a day off work can be costly.
It was my first APAT Tournament and I played absolutely crap, pardon the french, I was nervous (not ashamed to admit it) and i didnt think clearly enough hence my early exit.
Despite the nerves and the early exit, I will be back again to play (should i make the final player list), I love the atmosphere, the people and expecially the POKER. I love the game, and as an amateur love the opportunity to play in a huge event like this and gain some more experience etc..
Cheers
Mary
9s 6s
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Having done three events this season, I"ve seen a change in the quality of play. To me it"s improving and I think this is having an affect on the time that it now takes to lose players on day one and also the time it takes to complete play on day 2.
As for the structure, I don"t think it can be faulted.
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The only fault that I can think of is, I should start with 20,000 in chips... Haha.. Lol
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Great W/end, The Fitz were very friendly bunch locals and dealers alike. The standard of dealing was the best I have come across anywhere too.
The structure is great and perfect for most of us holding regular Mon-Fri jobs.
However and here is the but, there is a point that a few I talked to in Dublin also couldn"t understand and I think should be considered:
The tournament stops too soon on the Saturday night, I can not understand why the tourney doesn"t play down to the cash positions.
1. It seems harsh to be asked to hang around ( or drive back a couple of hours) until half way thru the next afternoon when very short stacked and forced to push within a couple of hands and receive no reward/prizemoney.
2. This would also help the tourney finish earlier on the Sunday and allow people chance to get home for the Monday more comfortably.
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Great W/end, The Fitz were very friendly bunch locals and dealers alike. The standard of dealing was the best I have come across anywhere too.
The structure is great and perfect for most of us holding regular Mon-Fri jobs.
However and here is the but, there is a point that a few I talked to in Dublin also couldn"t understand and I think should be considered:
The tournament stops too soon on the Saturday night, I can not understand why the tourney doesn"t play down to the cash positions.
1. It seems harsh to be asked to hang around ( or drive back a couple of hours) until half way thru the next afternoon when very short stacked and forced to push within a couple of hands and receive no reward/prizemoney.
2. This would also help the tourney finish earlier on the Sunday and allow people chance to get home for the Monday more comfortably.
Agree with above. Let"s not forget it was a great tournament and structure generally, but I thought we should have carried on to 15 prize money winners on the Saturday night too. As there was a draw for the final TWO tables (I"ve not seen this done before), I was in the blinds 4 hands out of 5 and this left me in a position where I had to push with A6 off and was out very soon on day 2 for no prize and a bit of an anticlimax.
Don"t get me wrong, I may have gone out soon anyway, but I thought I had a full round to get through when I arrived on the Sunday afternoon which would have given me a few more hands to play with, and later positions to steal the blinds if it had not been raised up already. Maybe we should have piped up on Saturday a bit earlier as it was announced reasonably early enough though...?
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The tournament stops too soon on the Saturday night, I can not understand why the tourney doesn"t play down to the cash positions.
I absolutely love the tourney - have no doubt about that - but I would also like to see it go on later on Saturday and finish earlier on Sunday. I think it would have more of a feel of a "big" tournament. Not a complaint, just a preference.
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As mentioned on another forum, the addition of a 150/300 level would make the already excellent structure perfect.
Would mean an additional 40 minutes on Day 1 - but surely that could be done by starting at 2 o"clock instead of 2:30, and finishing 10 minutes later.
It"s nit-picking really, as the structure is far better than anything else you can get at this buy-in level. But the 150/300 would make it spot on.
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Totally agree , that the 150/300 level would add more play to the tourney. I played the Friday night game at the Fritz ( where they had 150/300 level) and was quite taken aback when it wasn"t there on the Sat APAT game ( I know that if I had checked I would have known).
Campaign begins for :
#Introduction of the 150/300 level
#Start at 2pm
#Play till the money on Saturday night
Comments/agreement/disagreement please Des, Tikay and the rest of APAT
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If the start can"t be brought forward (due to many of the casinos only opening their doors at noon - and therefore there not being enough time to get everything ready), then I don"t think anyone (well, not many) would be against the idea of the play going on 40 minutes later at the end of Day 1.
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If I ever get that for (I live in hope) I would prefer to play down to the money on the Saturday
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I"m quite happy either way.
If the consensus is with introducing the 150/300 level and playing down to the money on the Saturday night/Sunday morning then it"ll not affect my decision as to whether to play the events - I"ll be there regardless.
I suspect most players would have no problem with these changes.
The only thing that it might be worth noting is that if the entry is large, 200/250 plus, then it may not be possible to play down to the money without players falling asleep at the table.
I think a little common sense needs to be used, and decisions made on an event to event basis, depending on entry size.
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If the fields for S2 are the same as S1 (150ish) then I think playing down to the cash places is a good idea. The problem is that Apat have been hinting that S2 will be a lot bigger, venues and comps it seems.
With fields of hopefully 250+ for S2 it wont be possible to play down to the money, so were do you draw the line. Time, say a midnight finish, or numbers 30,40, 50 which will mean a later finish on the Sunday. Im sure those in charge welcome our comments but there may well be a price to pay for larger fields in S2.
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LARGER FIELDS DOESN"T MEAN IT TAKES ANY LONGER TO PLAY DOWN TO THE MONEY AS THE MONEY WILL START FURTHER OUT.
wHAT IT DOES MEAN IS THAT IT WILL TAKE LONGER TO PLAY OUT ONCE YOU"VE REACHED THE MONEY STAGE.~ SO DAY 1 WILL BE NO LONGER , BUT DAY 2 WILL BE INCREASED.
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LARGER FIELDS DOESN"T MEAN IT TAKES ANY LONGER TO PLAY DOWN TO THE MONEY AS THE MONEY WILL START FURTHER OUT.
wHAT IT DOES MEAN IS THAT IT WILL TAKE LONGER TO PLAY OUT ONCE YOU"VE REACHED THE MONEY STAGE.~ SO DAY 1 WILL BE NO LONGER , BUT DAY 2 WILL BE INCREASED.
I can see where your coming from, but surely day one will take longer. For example say there are 250 runners and the top 25 get paid.(10%) Thats 225 players to be eliminated. At the moment 150 players and top 15 win money, meaning 135 players have to be knocked out. It must take longer.
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In B/ham I think there was 120 runners, and at the end of the first day I think there was about 33ish runners left.
You have to take into account the bagging up of chips at the ens of the tournament as well... This takes around 20 minutes at least...
So if you play down to a predetermined number you could be there till an unspecified time,,, So you could finish about 3am, if you are staying in a B&B you generally have to be out by 10 or 11.
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I think the structure is spot on.
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Bodddders , I know where you are coming from, it does seem as though it must take longer , but because of the extra number of tables , the players still get knocked out proportionally at the same rate. So it doesn"t matter if you start with 10,000 players, you still reach the last 10%(1000players) after the same time as you would for a 100 player tourney reach the last 10 players.
There are a few technicalities like moving tables and general organisation which slow things down a bit but all APAT tourneys could start at 2pm and finish with the money players roughly 1am-2am. ( add 45 min if you add a 150-300 level)
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Bodddders , I know where you are coming from, it does seem as though it must take longer , but because of the extra number of tables , the players still get knocked out proportionally at the same rate. So it doesn"t matter if you start with 10,000 players, you still reach the last 10%(1000players) after the same time as you would for a 100 player tourney reach the last 10 players.
There are a few technicalities like moving tables and general organisation which slow things down a bit but all APAT tourneys could start at 2pm and finish with the money players roughly 1am-2am. ( add 45 min if you add a 150-300 level)
I guess your right, but I have very little experience of big tourneys so I would be interested if others agree with this senario.
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There is a certain logic to what Robbiebox is saying, but I believe it"s slightly flawed.
With 300 plus players the number of drop outs would be comparable to a field of 150 for the first two thirds/three quarters of day one. It would then slow down due to one factor - the number of chips in play compared to the blinds.
With a greater number of chips in play, those considered short stacked ordinarily, wouldn"t be when compared to the blinds they have to pay. Less players would feel forced to push.
To counter that, the timings for the levels would have to be dropped to 25 or 30 minutes, to ensure that the short stacks at the back end of day one felt compelled to push.
I"m not sure that changing the timings would be good for the events.
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The number of chips in play will make no difference.
If you are playing to a certain % of players then the average chip stack will always be the same no matter whether there are 10,000 or 100 players so the blinds will still attack the short stacks just as much.
In the 150 player tourney 12am till 2am might be the time it takes the tourney to go from 24 players to 15 ( cash positions)
WHILST
In the 300 player tourney 12am till 2am might be the time it takes the tourney to go from 48 players to 30 ( cash positions)