Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Archive Boards => Archive => 888poker.com => Topic started by: coprey on March 16, 2011, 09:05:06 AM
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Hi
This may be commonly known, or have previously been discussed. Today I discovered that 888 will deduct funds from accounts that have been inactive for 6 months without warning. The deductions equate to 10% of the funds in the account and will be taken monthly, 10% per month. This was explained to me today by 888 representitive Kathia P. She also explained that it is in the terms and conditions. I understand that players registering with 888 are doing so to play APAT events and therefore will not be inactive, however considering most people dont read through the terms and conditions I thought it might be useful to know. It seems a strange policy and one that worries me, considering I have quite a few poker accounts with cash deposited, many of which I have not used for a while. The policy just seems wrong to me.
Col
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This was discovered when I noticed by account had been cleaned out. Im not sure how much funds where removed, not much from memory but I will be asking 888. Also reward points were removed, and i had quite a lot considering I played on this site a lot for several years.
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wow if this is true, it"s outrageous!!
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I certainly wasn"t aware of it...fortunately I only use the account for APAT.
I"ve generally found it good practise not to leave ANY money on a site I"m not planning on playing for a while. I"ll withdraw to Neteller, or whatever, and leave it there where it can be transferred back pretty much instantly.
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Copied directly from 888 terms and conditions
Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero. In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies already deducted from the account at such time.
:o
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That"s really poor form, and probably has lost my business. I"ll be withdrawing and depositing solely for the Online Champs & Direct Buy-ins.
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online poker shooting itself in the foot again. It"s all about trust, but newcomers to the industry are never going to trust a site that takes their money off them if they have a spell where they don"t play. I"ve never heard of anything so crap!
Q. Do any other sites do this?? I"m certain the the larger sites don"t!
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Tbf they are not the only ones doing it, heard about this loads of times.
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alot of sites do this, party"s another that does it. if you haven"t played a game on there in 6 months then chances are you"ve withdrawn any money.
just withdraw from a site when you"re not playing there or play a game there every 4 months or so. just check the terms of each site
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Yes, of course there are ways around this, but to me this is legalized theft. It beggars belief how they can get away with this. Corporations robbing their customers, pure and simple.
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That"s very strange really. Imagine keeping a safety deposit box at a Casino you visited often only to find out that the times you hadn"t visited for six months they opened it up and helped themselves to ten percent of your money. How do the online poker sites justify this? Do they even try? How does it cost them money to maintain dormant accounts?
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or you could look at it like it"s an administration fee for keeping your account open when you obviously don"t play there.
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That"s very strange really. Imagine keeping a safety deposit box at a Casino you visited often only to find out that the times you hadn"t visited for six months they opened it up and helped themselves to ten percent of your money. How do the online poker sites justify this? Do they even try? How does it cost them money to maintain dormant accounts?
but it"s not quite like that scenario. how often does the average player play online compared to live at a casino? twice as much? four times as much? obviously it differs from person to person but you get the idea. say it"s 4 times as much, in your scenario it would be like leaving the safety deposit box for 2 years before they took any money from it.
i don"t see that much of a problem with it. if you use a service often then you should get rewarded for it. if you don"t then you have to pay for the privilage.
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Yes, thats exactly how they justify it. Administration. Exactly what administration is required to leave an account alone. The administration would seem to chiefly involve working out 10% of all the "dormant" accounts and setting up a monthly debit. Imagine $10,000 worth of dormant accounts, the interest on this deposited cash is not enough for the corporation, they want to take $1,000 per month for 10 months and tell us its for admin. Its laughable. They wont even warn you that they are going to do this, no opportunity is given to the customer to either play on the site or withdraw their funds.
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i don"t see that much of a problem with it. if you use a service often then you should get rewarded for it. if you don"t then you have to pay for the privilage.
What reward and privilege are you referring to? Reward of not having your money stolen? Privilege of 888 allowing you to give them your money, playing on their site and generating rake for them?
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i don"t see that much of a problem with it. if you use a service often then you should get rewarded for it. if you don"t then you have to pay for the privilage.
What reward and privilege are you referring to? Reward of not having your money stolen? Privilege of 888 allowing you to give them your money, playing on their site and generating rake for them?
If you use their service you pay them for it - and if you don"t use their service, you pay them for it.
Rather than depositing, withdrawing, depositing ...... as and when you need to play - I tend to just play on sites which provide a better service.
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i don"t see that much of a problem with it. if you use a service often then you should get rewarded for it. if you don"t then you have to pay for the privilage.
What service? They don"t provide a service - they provide a platform on which their customers can pay them rake ffs! If a customer chooses not to play for a while, they take the customer"s money anyway! To top it all, not mentioned yet on this thread... when you have money deposited on a site, do you think they keep it in a cash box under the bed?? clearly not - it will be sat with everyone else"s funds in a high interest business account earning oodles of interest.
So, to this admin fee for keeping the account in place when no play occurs - if they are to justify the taking of a fee, they should consider paying out interest on the moneys held!
Admin fee - what rot. Daylight feckin robbery is what it is!
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Rights and wrongs of this practice aside... what baffles me is why anyone would leave money* in a site that they haven"t used for >6 months?
*Other than an ammount too small to allow you to buy-in to the smallest micro-stakes game available. :-\
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Rights and wrongs of this practice aside... what baffles me is why anyone would leave money* in a site that they haven"t used for >6 months?
*Other than an ammount too small to allow you to buy-in to the smallest micro-stakes game available. :-\
When we moved APAT from Blue Square to Betfair, I inadvertently left just over $200 in BSQ.... around a year later I received an email reminding me it was there and that I hadn"t played in a while, and an offer of a bonus if I returned and played.
So - BSQ try and get people back playing on their site, and actively incentivise them to do so.... but 888 just take your money away as a penalty for not playing. Spot the difference.
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Rights and wrongs of this practice aside... what baffles me is why anyone would leave money* in a site that they haven"t used for >6 months?
*Other than an ammount too small to allow you to buy-in to the smallest micro-stakes game available. :-\
Jail :D
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That"s very strange really. Imagine keeping a safety deposit box at a Casino you visited often only to find out that the times you hadn"t visited for six months they opened it up and helped themselves to ten percent of your money. How do the online poker sites justify this? Do they even try? How does it cost them money to maintain dormant accounts?
but it"s not quite like that scenario. how often does the average player play online compared to live at a casino? twice as much? four times as much? obviously it differs from person to person but you get the idea. say it"s 4 times as much, in your scenario it would be like leaving the safety deposit box for 2 years before they took any money from it.
i don"t see that much of a problem with it. if you use a service often then you should get rewarded for it. if you don"t then you have to pay for the privilage.
If it"s essentially an admin fee why is it not a set amount? It shouldn"t be 10% of whatever you happen to have left in there should it? One guy has $20 and another $200, so one guy pays $2 the other $20. It should just be whatever the cost incurred by 888 to keep a dormant account open. There"s no reason for it to be different for each player.
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Rights and wrongs of this practice aside... what baffles me is why anyone would leave money* in a site that they haven"t used for >6 months?
*Other than an ammount too small to allow you to buy-in to the smallest micro-stakes game available. :-\
silly question
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yeh bit appalled at this behaviour, noticed party did it years ago but withdrew from there anyway...totally disgusting to charge a %age, the whole thing must surely must be illegal...take it nobody"s ever challenged it or lost enough to be worth all the legal hassle and fees...
Only admin fees i could think of would be the disc space to store your details and disc or tape storage to back it up, all of which happens automatically of course and doesn"t need to be set up for anyone in particular.
Out of interest if they take 10% it will never reach 0...oh but i bet they round it up when they get to the last cent...probably round everything in their favour, all those points of pennies adds up...
oh well, no 3d games with that chicken warne for me...apats" only
Here"s an email i got from virgin 3 weeks ago...
"We"re writing to let you know that you still have money in your account. You can use this to get back into the spin of things, or if you"ve decided to take a break from playing with us we can arrange to give it back to you.
If your balance is less than 5 and you"re feeling really generous you could even donate it to charity!
To keep your money safe whilst you"ve been away, we put a temporary suspension on your account, which means you"ll have to get in touch with us first. If you"ve been away for a while or your personal details have changed, we may need to ask you for documents too, but if that"s the case we promise to be gentle.
For more information just contact us using any of the methods shown at the bottom of the email and tell us what you"d like to do - play or pay!
We look forward to hearing from you!
Virgin Games"
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What makes matters worse is that if they take 10% every month, it should be impossible for them to get your account to zero. They somehow managed to do that with me though.
They did give me $30 when I redeposited (straight into the account - not a bonus thing) so not too bad. Am trying to be positive about this, but this practice is pretty poor and can only firm up players resolve to never play on the site again.
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Rights and wrongs of this practice aside... what baffles me is why anyone would leave money* in a site that they haven"t used for >6 months?
*Other than an ammount too small to allow you to buy-in to the smallest micro-stakes game available. :-\
silly question
Why?
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its there money they do what they want with it .i think you will find a LOT of people do this.
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Rights and wrongs of this practice aside... what baffles me is why anyone would leave money* in a site that they haven"t used for >6 months?
*Other than an ammount too small to allow you to buy-in to the smallest micro-stakes game available. :-\
silly question
Why?
I thought it was an odd statement to call it a silly question.
Obviously people can do whatever they want with their own money, doesn"t mean you can"t query as to why they"d want to just leave it there
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its there money they do what they want with it. i think you will find a LOT of people do this.
Silly statement.
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Silly statement.
;D
Made me laugh out loud...literally.
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Rights and wrongs of this practice aside... what baffles me is why anyone would leave money* in a site that they haven"t used for >6 months?
*Other than an ammount too small to allow you to buy-in to the smallest micro-stakes game available. :-\
silly question
Why?
I thought it was an odd statement to call it a silly question.
Obviously people can do whatever they want with their own money, doesn"t mean you can"t query as to why they"d want to just leave it there
y not its his money .they mite have time to play poker .they mine be working a 7 day week . they mite be flying round the world for six months who knows..y question it. OK lets do it like .just say i knocked your front door and you anseredand i give you a BIG kiss would you question it i dont think so :-* :-*
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Hi all,
I am in the management of 888, and would like to address these concern directly to you.
I want to point out that before any deduction of funds from an inactive account (6 months without logging in) ever happens, we email the member numerous to tell them that the time is approaching (a month before the time). And all they need to do to become active is again is login and play a hand. I think that isn"t a great burden for anyone, for whatever reason they are taking a break from poker. We have an instant play no download client that works on all computers. It takes 1 min to login and play a hand - and then the player is considered active. We don"t deduct funds from a member without warning them. We want our customers to be active playing poker of course, and OF COURSE we try and re-activate our customers before this even becomes an issue.
Now it"s not our own policy as to why we need to do it, it"s because it"s a licensing REQUIREMENT for the particular gaming licenses we have in our jurisdiction. That is why you will find the other operators that have similar policy are usually in the same licensing jurisdiction as 888.
The reason the regulators want us to do this, is that we cannot keep an open cash liability in our financials forever and we have all sorts of financial guidelines like anti money laundering we need to consider in our business. We are licensed to be a gaming operator, not a bank where we hold the funds forever. During normal gaming play we of course securely hold customers funds so they can be used in the poker play. So we need (and must have) a policy in which deters customers from leaving money with us without playing with it. Our license says we can hold funds only for game play. We are not a licensed financial institution.
I consider our process to be very fair and reasonable around the guidelines we are given. We don"t even consider an account inactive for 6 months, and all a customer needs to do is login in that period and this is never an issue. We notify them by email if this is ever happens. They can login once and a new 6 months starts, or of course they could withdraw the funds and redeposit later should they decide to return to us. Even if the 6 months deadline does come, we still only take 10% a month so we have opportunity to continue to try and re-activate this customer.
It"s really important to make sure we have your correct email address so our communications reach you.
There is no malice intent here, it"s just a combination of regulatory and financial requirements.
Regards
Gareth
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Hi Gareth
Thanks for the response.
I would be interested to know the total cash taken from customers under this policy. Is this information available? Can you also tell me if it is also 888"s policy to nullify customers accummulated reward points, if their account has been deemed inactive, and if so where this appears in the terms and conditions.
Thanks
Col
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Now it"s not our own policy as to why we need to do it, it"s because it"s a licensing REQUIREMENT for the particular gaming licenses we have in our jurisdiction. That is why you will find the other operators that have similar policy are usually in the same licensing jurisdiction as 888.
Thanks for the response Gareth. Regarding the quote above, I"d be interested to know other operators that take this stance... I"ve never come across it before, and have accounts on most of the major sites.
In my opinion, regardless of how hard you try and communicate with owners of inactive accounts, there may be valid reasons why someone is unable to login and play during a six month cycle. As you state, it only takes one minute, however there will be people who are physically unable to achieve this (resting at HM pleasure, hospitalised, working away, plain old simple personal reasons, etc) and to take their money away feels inappropriate and wrong. I understand that FSA rules may prohibit you from acting as a bank, however would expect that you would first attempt to return funds to source of deposit before simply swallowing them into 888"s own accounts.
Cheers
Steve
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Surely making the account inactive would take all admin costs out and still make sure 888 are still not "acting like a bank." I know I have money on other acc"s which I havent used in 6 months.
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Hi Gareth
Thanks for the response.
I would be interested to know the total cash taken from customers under this policy. Is this information available? Can you also tell me if it is also 888"s policy to nullify customers accummulated reward points, if their account has been deemed inactive, and if so where this appears in the terms and conditions.
Thanks
Col
All of it is in the terms and conditions of course. I don"t know the exact numbers to be honest as this rarely happens.
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Now it"s not our own policy as to why we need to do it, it"s because it"s a licensing REQUIREMENT for the particular gaming licenses we have in our jurisdiction. That is why you will find the other operators that have similar policy are usually in the same licensing jurisdiction as 888.
Thanks for the response Gareth. Regarding the quote above, I"d be interested to know other operators that take this stance... I"ve never come across it before, and have accounts on most of the major sites.
In my opinion, regardless of how hard you try and communicate with owners of inactive accounts, there may be valid reasons why someone is unable to login and play during a six month cycle. As you state, it only takes one minute, however there will be people who are physically unable to achieve this (resting at HM pleasure, hospitalised, working away, plain old simple personal reasons, etc) and to take their money away feels inappropriate and wrong. I understand that FSA rules may prohibit you from acting as a bank, however would expect that you would first attempt to return funds to source of deposit before simply swallowing them into 888"s own accounts.
Cheers
Steve
Basically those with Gibraltar based license need to deal with this in some way. Party is the other major player in Gibraltar license and they handle the conditions in much the same way.
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Surely making the account inactive would take all admin costs out and still make sure 888 are still not "acting like a bank." I know I have money on other acc"s which I havent used in 6 months.
We are only allowed to hold money for gaming use, plain and simple. If it becomes a situation where it might not be gaming use, then we need to encourage gaming play or remove the funds from the liability. We slow down the process as much as we can and take as many actions we can to re-activate the player. Naturally, our business is people playing poker. Ultimately this is what we always try to do. You think we want to make a customer angry by deducting money? We are FORCED to.
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The conditions and regulations to run online gaming are VERY complex and cumbersome. We have dozens of people dedicated to compliance issues. It causes a lot of restrictions on the way we do things, but ultimately it"s all in place to protect you guys, the customers. At the end of the day, this is the goal of regulation (and of course for tax on operators :) ).
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The conditions and regulations to run online gaming are VERY complex and cumbersome. We have dozens of people dedicated to compliance issues. It causes a lot of restrictions on the way we do things, but ultimately it"s all in place to protect you guys, the customers. At the end of the day, this is the goal of regulation (and of course for tax on operators :) ).
Gareth888. Wright i love conditions put me in first place in a tourney and ill be there to protect there money just like this hehe http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=adam+and+the+ants+stand+and+deliver&aq=3. I hope im not in trouble
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At the end of the day it"s 888"s decision to be based in Gibraltar - there are other tax-light options that aren"t as restrictive (see Stars and the Isle of Man for an example).
It may not be something they can change but it"s still a policy that"s enough for me to stick to APAT events alone on 888.
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Gareth is a senior member of the team at 888 and I think he has been clear in explaining why 888poker implement this policy, and he has answered several of your questions also. So, thanks for clarifying the situation Gareth.
It would appear to me that 888poker don"t particularly like this term, as we don"t. Relocating from Gibraltar is of course not a realistic outcome and this particular term was proabably not a consideration in locating there in the first place.
Now those of you stating that you"re not going to play on 888poker again, or will only play APAT games on 888poker, need to understand the reality of the way that APAT operates. Our partners; in this case 888poker, enable our schedule to operate. They pay for everything. The Cups & Medals, the venue, the registration fees, the UKIPT seats, the streaming, the hotels that the organisers stay in - basically if someone sticks out a hand on our journey, 888poker pay.
They do this because you all support them and not out of the goodness of their heart. Although they are good of course :) In fact the more you play with 888poker the larger and more fruitful our opportunities with them are. It"s very simple commerce. So I would appreciate if those of you who are considering restricting your support of 888poker would reconsider. The term in question is stated in their T & Cs, it was clearly explained above, and is potentially rarely used.
Thanks,
Des.
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Top post Des - did you ever think about a career in politics?
I would certainly not stop playing at 888 - as a poker player, that would be -EV and not in the best interest of my bankroll ;)
I think it"s reasonable to voice the concern though over what is clearly a controversial term, and I appreciate and understand Gareth"s responses.
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Thanks to Gareth for taking the time to respond.
I do take issue with his comment about players receiving an email to warn them about their imminent deduction. I don"t remember receiving this and when I spoke to support they never mentioned that they sent me an email despite me suggesting that it would have been good practice to do so.
However, they have given me $30. I like the software and the tourneys on this site, so will certainly carry on playing on the site, APAT sponsorship or not.
One question still nags away at me though. And it has yet to be answered by support or anyone else at 888. Maybe Gareth can help?
If you take 10% each month, how come my account is (or was) on $0? it is impossible for this to happen. I asked last week for a statement to be sent with the relevant deductions on. A week later, I"m still waiting.
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If you take 10% each month, how come my account is (or was) on $0? it is impossible for this to happen.
You are assuming that the 10% of the account balance in play each month...perhaps they work out the initial balance, divide that by 10 and deduct that amount every month for 10 months.
Simpler admin....note initial amount, divide by 10, set up payment schedule, hit "Run".
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good post gareth and good follow up mr duffy, probably enough to make me approach with an open mind...in reality it"s never likely to cost me more than a few hundred quid but i think all the sites i"ve stopped playing are usually down to near zero anyway.
A suggestion might be that the sites could in fact just return the money to our cards/deposit method 10% at a time...(bet you get a response to random payments appearing in our accounts :) ) assuming the card registered with the site is still active of course which there might be a good chance of within 6 months.
Quick question for gareth, you mentioned a download free client...does this mean i can use my iphone ? (i guess through safari?)
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good post gareth and good follow up mr Duffy, probably enough to make me approach with an open mind...in reality it"s never likely to cost me more than a few hundred quid but i think all the sites i"ve stopped playing are usually down to near zero anyway.
A suggestion might be that the sites could in fact just return the money to our cards/deposit method 10% at a time...(bet you get a response to random payments appearing in our accounts :) ) assuming the card registered with the site is still active of course which there might be a good chance of within 6 months.
Quick question for gareth, you mentioned a download free client...does this mean i can use my iphone ? (i guess through safari?)
We are also not allowed to process a deposit or withdrawal without a member instigating it (authenticating by being logged into the client or answering security questions over the phone).
The webbased version is flash so only on non-iphone broswers. But the flashversion is not in sync with features of the download version so I dont recommend it. It will be in sync soon and we will have iphone apllication later in year we hope.
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Thanks to Gareth for taking the time to respond.
I do take issue with his comment about players receiving an email to warn them about their imminent deduction. I don"t remember receiving this and when I spoke to support they never mentioned that they sent me an email despite me suggesting that it would have been good practice to do so.
However, they have given me $30. I like the software and the tourneys on this site, so will certainly carry on playing on the site, APAT sponsorship or not.
One question still nags away at me though. And it has yet to be answered by support or anyone else at 888. Maybe Gareth can help?
If you take 10% each month, how come my account is (or was) on $0? it is impossible for this to happen. I asked last week for a statement to be sent with the relevant deductions on. A week later, I"m still waiting.
There is for sure email warnings at the very least, they run on certain days of each month. This is for sure.
I think once there is small residual amount in month 12 it"s cleared. I cannot remember the exact formula but you can find in the terms and conditions.
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We are also not allowed to process a deposit or withdrawal without a member instigating it
This is similar to the situation that always made me laugh with frustration with banks when a direct debit fails because of insufficient funds, yet they will withdraw a "fee" from the account......strange there seems to be funds in there to do that ! LOL
Gareth, seriously if you cant process a withdrawal from an account, then how can you withdraw from an account into your own funds ????
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Gareth, seriously if you cant process a withdrawal from an account, then how can you withdraw from an account into your own funds ????
There"s a difference between a withdrawal to an external institution and a transfer/fee payment to another of 888"s accounts.
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good post gareth and good follow up mr Duffy, probably enough to make me approach with an open mind...in reality it"s never likely to cost me more than a few hundred quid but i think all the sites i"ve stopped playing are usually down to near zero anyway.
A suggestion might be that the sites could in fact just return the money to our cards/deposit method 10% at a time...(bet you get a response to random payments appearing in our accounts :) ) assuming the card registered with the site is still active of course which there might be a good chance of within 6 months.
Quick question for gareth, you mentioned a download free client...does this mean i can use my iphone ? (i guess through safari?)
HI alland23 IF im not going 2 vegas cuold i go on the safari with you . but i really would not bring my phone it would get broke 2 easy
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We are also not allowed to process a deposit or withdrawal without a member instigating it
This is similar to the situation that always made me laugh with frustration with banks when a direct debit fails because of insufficient funds, yet they will withdraw a "fee" from the account......strange there seems to be funds in there to do that ! LOL
Gareth, seriously if you cant process a withdrawal from an account, then how can you withdraw from an account into your own funds ????
Come on....
It"s common sense. We cannot take from your credit card or debit card or neteller etc without you AGREEING to do it. We cannot put back on your card unless you AGREE to do it (login, make a withdrawal). Obviously this is so we get correct and current details as well.
From the poker account, we can adjust the bankroll anytime and do it with lots of actions, like when you cash in a tournament, win money at a cash game table, qualify for a bonus etc.
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There is for sure email warnings at the very least, they run on certain days of each month. This is for sure.
I think once there is small residual amount in month 12 it"s cleared. I cannot remember the exact formula but you can find in the terms and conditions.
Hi Gareth
As regards email warnings, I am currently investigating this with 888, progress is slow. I did not recieve any warnings to my knowledge although its possible an old email address could have been used.
With regards the 10% reductions, let me clarify by highlighting the terms and conditions below:
"the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero."
In other words if the "dormant" account has $100 10% is calculated as the monthly administration fee and this is deducted over 10 months at which time the account will reach zero. Simple!
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If you take 10% each month, how come my account is (or was) on $0? it is impossible for this to happen.
You are assuming that the 10% of the account balance in play each month...perhaps they work out the initial balance, divide that by 10 and deduct that amount every month for 10 months.
Simpler admin....note initial amount, divide by 10, set up payment schedule, hit "Run".
Damn...I"m good!
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This thread is about 888"s policy of taking cash from dormant accounts. Although I can almost appreciate that 888 dont want to do this, and are forced to. I want to be reassurred that players are given adequate warning of the removal of their funds under this arbitrary policy.
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This thread is about 888"s policy of taking cash from dormant accounts. Although I can almost appreciate that 888 dont want to do this, and are forced to. I want to be reassurred that players are given adequate warning of the removal of their funds under this arbitrary policy.
As I have explained in this thread, of course members are given adequate warning as we WANT them to re-activate. We want to warn them, and put as much resources behind that as possible. The key, make sure we have correct information so you can be contacted.
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There is for sure email warnings at the very least, they run on certain days of each month. This is for sure.
I think once there is small residual amount in month 12 it"s cleared. I cannot remember the exact formula but you can find in the terms and conditions.
Hi Gareth
As regards email warnings, I am currently investigating this with 888, progress is slow. I did not recieve any warnings to my knowledge although its possible an old email address could have been used.
With regards the 10% reductions, let me clarify by highlighting the terms and conditions below:
"the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero."
In other words if the "dormant" account has $100 10% is calculated as the monthly administration fee and this is deducted over 10 months at which time the account will reach zero. Simple!
Ok, so it"s 10 months instead of 12... :)
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hi gareth, can the t&c not just get our agreement in advance that you would return the funds 10% at a time in these circumstances then you have our agreement without having to try and contact us ... would be easy to enforce a withdrawal method being kept up to date....
this would be handy, "specially as me and sam could be on safari... :-)
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where r wee going
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Oh s***, I"ve only just picked-up on this thread and part of me wishes I hadn"t seen it. I think that taking money from inactive accounts is indefensible and tantamount to theft. Having become aware of this I will be contacting 888 for clarification, as I don"t recall seeing this clause in the terms and conditions when I signed up for the site and sure as hell wouldn"t have consented to it.
This unfortunately gives me something of a moral dilemna. I was aware of Party Poker"s stance regarding inactive accounts and it disgusted me to the point where I will simply not play on the site. If APAT's events weren"t on 888 there"s not a cat in hell"s chance I"d use the site as a result of the policy in question. Looks like I"ve got some serious thinking to do about continuing to participate in the online nationals. Principals Vs possibility of making a few quid. Hmmmmm.
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Tbf - I think the added value they will add to the tour this season will more than make up for this.
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As I have explained in this thread, of course members are given adequate warning as we WANT them to re-activate. We want to warn them, and put as much resources behind that as possible. The key, make sure we have correct information so you can be contacted.
Gareth, You have indeed explained that players with inactive accounts will be given adequate warnings before 888 begin the process of emptying their accounts of cash.
I have been in contact with 888 over the past week or so, and to date they have been unable or reluctant (I dont know which as they simply havent addressed my explicit question) to give me any information about when or how I was contacted prior to funds being taken from my account.
Does this surprise you?
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Tbf - I think the added value they will add to the tour this season will more than make up for this.
That"s the one and only reason why I talked about having a decision to make rather than just not using the site at all. I haven"t played on Partypoker since I found out about their operation of this policy, but if I"m honest, greed is likely to win the day over principles and I will more than likely play the rest of the nationals. I won"t play cash or any other tournies on the site though.
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I"ve kept quiet on this subject, but I"m a little confused as to why anyone wouldn"t play on the site because of this policy ?
For those that it has impacted on in the past, I"m sure they are annoyed to have lost money, but as Gareth has pointed out, 888poker want players to play on their site.
There appears to be a few communication queries, that I would hope 888poker would address specifically to those players involved, but other than that, if you know you aren"t planning on playing on the site for a 6 month period, just withdraw your funds.
Maybe I look at this too simplistically, but apart from those that have issues because this policy has affected them, everyone else has been made aware of the policy through this thread, so should be able to take the appropriate action if necessary.
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I"ve kept quiet on this subject, but I"m a little confused as to why anyone wouldn"t play on the site because of this policy ?
For those that it has impacted on in the past, I"m sure they are annoyed to have lost money, but as Gareth has pointed out, 888poker want players to play on their site.
There appears to be a few communication queries, that I would hope 888poker would address specifically to those players involved, but other than that, if you know you aren"t planning on playing on the site for a 6 month period, just withdraw your funds.
Maybe I look at this too simplistically, but apart from those that have issues because this policy has affected them, everyone else has been made aware of the policy through this thread, so should be able to take the appropriate action if necessary.
This^^^^
I actually really like the layout of the site, and the customer service seems v good. Think we should be looking to support the site as much as poss when they are throwing in UKIPT seats and other costs.
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Agree with Marty and Leigh, and yes I agree it"s actually a pretty decent place to play online poker (and really soft)....
....however, I think Col still has a legitimate point, both from an overall perspective, and also from his personal experience and impact.
Bit daft for people to say they won"t play at 888 on grounds of principle - seems like cutting off noses to spite faces me thinks.
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....however, I think Col still has a legitimate point, both from an overall perspective, and also from his personal experience and impact.
Totally agree with that, and I hope it gets sorted.
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Hi All
This thread was started to alert APAT members about 888"s policy to deduct YOUR cash from your poker account if it has been inactive for a period of 6 months. This is in the terms and conditions, but who reads these, right? Maybe in future we will.
Gareth from 888 management posted on the forum to explain that 888 where "forced" to do this under strict regulations imposed on them and that every effort was made to notify customers before any of their cash was taken.
I had cash and loyalty points taken from my account while it remained inactive, and to my knowledge had never been notified, so I put the question directly to Gareth and at the same time requested information about notifications and method of contact to 888 customer service.
There seems to be a difference of opinion regarding notification being given to players before their funds are taken.
Gareth made the point strongly on this thead that customers were notified before their funds were taken, as follows:
"I want to point out that before any deduction of funds from an inactive account (6 months without logging in) ever happens, we email the member numerous to tell them that the time is approaching (a month before the time)."
"I consider our process to be very fair and reasonable around the guidelines we are given. We don"t even consider an account inactive for 6 months, and all a customer needs to do is login in that period and this is never an issue. We notify them by email if this is ever happens."
"There is for sure email warnings at the very least, they run on certain days of each month. This is for sure."
"As I have explained in this thread, of course members are given adequate warning as we WANT them to re-activate. We want to warn them, and put as much resources behind that as possible. The key, make sure we have correct information so you can be contacted."
In response to a direct question as to whether I had been notified before my funds were taken and what method of notification was used.
I received this email from 888 customer service this morning:
Dear Colin,
Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention. My name is Devonette and it is my pleasure to assist you with your query today.
Let me first apologize for the obvious inconvenience that you have suffered from this recent situation.
Colin , I am sorry to learn that you were not aware of our dormant fees which a deducted due to inactivity.
When you initially register to be a member on 888poker you are provided with a user agreement which you must read through prior to being provided access to our games. In effort to view the synopsis which apply to the dormant fees I urge you to select the link which I have provided and make reference to number 8 point 4. http://www.888poker.com/security-and-privacy/user-agreement.htm
If you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant.
Colin , the administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero. In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies already deducted from the account at such time.
Therefore, due to the above terms you were not provided with an email notifying that the percentage was going to be deducted your balance which remained.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused and trust that the information provided will be beneficial to you.
Should you require any further assistance regarding this or any other query, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Kind regards,
Member Support Representative
support@888poker.com
www.888.com
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I suggest that you ask Gareth to confirm internally whether email are sent or not NOW as it"s possible that their policy has changed since your account became dormant.
What you received seems to be a "standard" reply which would probably have been sent as an automatic response.
Certainly it would appear that their is a miscommunication internally at 888.
However, we are SUPPOSED to read the T & C ....if we don"t, then it"s on us...and we have to take the pain for not doing so.
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Paulie, your assumption that this is a standard reply is incorrect. It is the third considered response that I have received from 888 regarding my specific questions.
Your suggestion that the T & C may have changed is a guess, and there is no evidence for this. 888 have not stated this nor has Gareth.
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I am a bit torn here.
On one side, I like the software and the games (payout structure is a bit lol but can let that go) and I will continue to play here.
On the other hand, I am increasingly frustrated by customer support and have now had a long running email exchange with exactly the same query as Col.
All I want to put this to bed is the following.
1. send me copies of the emails sent to me warning me about imminent deductions from my dormant account. I"m pretty sure I never received one but it may have gone straight to spam.
2. Send me a statement showing when the deductions were made and how much.
Is this really too much to ask?
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Rob, I agree. The software is good and I like the games/structure. I also like that 888 are partnering APAT and I hope this continues. However this thread is about 888 systematically taking players funds without warning. The reply I received from 888 customer support states that I was not contacted, because the information is clearly in the terms and conditions (how many people really read the T & C"s?). Gareth (888 management) is adamant that 888 warn players before any such action is taken, stating that 888 do not want to take funds from "dormant" accounts but are forced to. It is the conclusion of this 888 customer that there is no evidence of any customers being notified prior to 888 systematically taking their cash and that 888 management are out of touch with operational activities and their own customer support dept.
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Colin.
You have raised your concerns which are valid (for a specific set of circumstances) but this thread is veering towards being just about individual problem(s) which is/are better left off this thread and resolved privately.
If you get these resolved by all means report back.
As I mentioned, whether the T & C"s have changed or not is irrelevant to the overall conversation as that is what they state NOW.
Anyone who ignores them does so at their peril.
Paulie
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The key facts appear to me to be:-
1) 888 are required to operate this policy as a condition of their gaming license.
2) All players have agreed to this policy in signing up for the site.
The points with regards whether we/they like the policy or whether it is commuicated effectively are an aside. All parties have agreed to it and each must accept our own responsibilities as part of it.
That said I hope a positive outcome of this thread is that it gets communicated a bit more effectively. I"ve certainly never joined a site thinking I"d be leaving money dormant in an account for over six months, so I can"t really see it turning players off.
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I"m just wondering if anyone knows when 888 implemented this policy.
Was it there way back in 2005? I"ve heard complaints about it from threads in 2008 but none before so just wondering if anyone had a handle on when it came in.
Any help appreciated.