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We hope to announce one or two interesting developments to the S5 Pro and European events in the coming week or two, but now seems like a good time to start generating your thoughts and ideas ahead of Season 6.
So let us have your thoughts on the following and any other points that you"d like to make before we finalise plans.
Live
- Countries
- Venues
- Structure
- Buy in
- Pay structure
- Added value
- Trophies / medals
- Rules
- WCOAP
- Streaming
- Live updates
- Post event reports
- Photo galleries
- Team events
- Side events
- Formats, ie reentry, rebuys, etc
- Guarantees
- Schedule, ie is one event a month right, etc
Online
- Sponsors, one / multiple
- Online Championship
- Online side events
- Online national league
- Online buy ins
Other
- Forum
- Main site
- Newsletter
- Facebook Group
- Twitter
- How can you help promote APAT
- Any other thoughts or ideas that you may have beyond the above.
We welcome all feedback.
Thanks,
Des.
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imo,,there should be less team events and less events abroad,,,these events rule out to many players,,players may then look elsewhere for a game and not come back.
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Well what to say, first of well done to all at APAT again !! great work keep it up .
As to the above obvously we must have the 4 home country games and I know that at times it has been hard to secure venues, as to other countries spain was a good choice last year ( even though I didn"t go ) :"( and maybe that could be looked at again !
Venues is a problem due to capacity by what about hotels as has been mentioned before ??
I think the structure is just right
75 quid is the right amount we don"t want to be seen following other sites/forums and with the current climate it should stay the same
Any added value is a bonus ( we all want to win a medal ) ;D maybe a WSOP seat for the worlds winner ( I wish )
As to the rules i think any player that leaves the table or folds out of turn has a penalty ( must be inforced at all venues )
The WCOAP has to be kept at DTD, great venue and the only one that could accomadate us for the week ??
Streamin ( GREAT ) but the cost ??? thats the problem !!
Live updates ( awesome ) ( tighty etc ) great job keep it up
Could do with sometimes post event reports a bit earlier so we can sort rooms /travelling etc
The team events are great and personally wish there were more of them !!
Side events ok maybe mix up the games a bit more so that everyone gets a chance at a favourite game ??
Don"t think re-buys should be allowed unless at the worlds on a different day ??
One game a month fine
As to sponsors , been a bit up and down this season but hopefully DES etc can sort something permanent for season 6 ??, ( many thanks for DTD for sponsering the worlds - nice one )
The online side I think is fine , no changes needed except maybe a variety of games for the side events stud/ razz/omaha HI-LO etc
Everything else is running fine ( as they say if it aint broke don"t try to fix it )
Just a few points from me only scrarched the surface and I"m sure others will have even more thoughts , overall APAT are doing a great job !! KEEP it UP !! ;D ;D
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personal preferences but use Paddy Power Poker as its easier for me to get cash on that site and play also use Dublin instead of Cork for the Irish leg, everything else seems to have been done well up to this point so cant say anything else
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I think that you guys in the APAT boardroom have done a cracking job since I"ve been a member (and gauging from others reactions), and prior to that also!
I know you used to be involved with Pokerstars, was this a good involvement? Because for games like 7-2 lowball and stud type games this would be the site to go to.
Whatever you choose for season 6 an early decision for the Worlds would be good due to booking hols etc, aside from that, whatever you produce for us, I am sure it will be fantastic!
Roll on season 6................... may not make many events but will be there in spirit
Cheers
Ian
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would like to see APAT try to visit the country off yorkshire if its at all possible in season 6 and gl with season 6
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Will have a proper think and post in more detail later on, but a couple of initial thoughts:
Try to retain existing buyin"s wherever possible, £75 is still a lot of money to a lot of amateur/hobby players especially in the current climate and not always easy to satellite in due the quality and strength in depth of members.
Try to retain WCOAP at DTD wherever possible, great venue, totally understanding towards catering to players needs etc
Brighton/South Coast event would be great as has a large catchment area but not currently catered for. On this point however I do totally appreciate the feedback given in the past about costs/flexibility of venues etc. No point being held to ransom.
I too was a little disappointed at the extent of team/pub/club games in the previous schedule. No problem including the odd one, but not at the expense of the original individual tournaments.
Happy for any European country to be considered for growth purposes, but again not at expense of home nationals. Satellites for packages again would be helpful and not just seat only.
Structures fine.
£10 or £20 (£25 even) side events would be great to justify travelling/hotels etc.
Any added value is a bonus, but a chance to play at the next level (UKIPT, GUKPT etc) for each m/e champion is always welcomed.
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TALLINN
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As I"ve said before, I"m very happy with what APAT are doing but there has been some uncertainty about scheduling and I do feel that more than one sponsor (if that is something they would accept) would be a welcome addition.
Not so much in adding extra value just in terms of having the (mostly) certain knowledge that the schedule was as firm as it could be (as much as these things ever are) for the entire year.
Now I know the above is down to Mr Duffy"s legendary negotiating skills but the certainty would be nice.
I know Tighty has taken on board some of the comments regarding locations and calendar and I agree that Ireland (Cork FTW) earlier in the year would be better with, perhaps, a mini-WCOAP (Fri - Sun)in Spain/Portugal (or elsewhere in Europe) in January 2013.
Mainland venues seem fine to me and Brighton would be a welcome addition.
Team events...other than the WCOAP...I don"t think have generally reached the markets they were after...and I say that as the captain of the current (and hopefully repeating) Forum Team Champions.
I think keeping the Forum comp is worthwhile but the Pub Team event wouldn"t be a major loss.
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Oh, this thread is going to be epic...
Live:
Countries; I assume this is limited by the Sponsor - for example France would not be a good place to go to because of their gaming laws, same for Italy. Slovenia/Bulgaria sounds interesting though from what I hear.
Venues; I don"t think it matters really for English venues, people will travel. Same for Ireland, just got to try and not make it clash with another event!
Structure/BI/Pay/AV/Trophies; all fine, IMO.
Rules; No change to the rules, but maybe make them clearer and have an APAT TD who is aware of these rules and has briefed all dealers as some might be slightly different to house rules?
WCOAP; Apart from keep it at DTD, nothing to add.
Streaming; (now this one could get controversial over the thread) I don"t think it works. I only think live streaming works when it"s on a delay and people have hole cards available. Personally, I"d rather see a live text-based update but if streaming were to stay, I would suggest maybe having some sort of password-protected event for those watching on the sponsor"s site as an initiative for players to play on the sponsor site and to watch as the password is revealed on the live stream.
Post event/Photos; BITB. (That"s "Best In The Business", copyright pleno1 over at Blonde Poker)
Team events: Just combine the two and have one big event. A lot of people will be playing both of this years anyway.
Side events: Again, a bit more variation please - although I know this is subject to dealers. Would like to see 10-game rather than HORSE this year.
Formats: Please, please, please do NOT make them a rebuy. The WCOAP could be a limited re-entry as in if you bust day 1a then you can buy back in to Day 1b as an alternate. If we do go down the re-entry route (which I dont think will happen as these events mostly tend to have an alternates list bigger than Rob Yong"s bank account) then again, limit it to one re-entry per player.
Guarantees: I honestly don"t remember APAT ever offering guarantees and don"t think they should start now. Who"s pocket will it come out of? GG added value if an event like Cork happens again.
Schedule: WCOAP last week of August, Team Champs last week of Jan. Work from there. Maybe try and get a set weekend if possible (I know, clashes) like DTD deepstacks is nearly always first weekend of the month. Don"t think we need any more than 12 live events. 9/10 in the UK & Ireland and 2 abroad. The third, if possible, should be Vegas in November every year, or Atlantic City. ;) Maybe for satellites to European events see how much a block of hotels costs and offer a package of £75 + hotel + airfare.
Oh, and hire Paulie_D to work out these costs!
Online:
Sponsors; I couldn"t care whether we were sponsored by PokerStars, 888, DTD, Gala Bingo, Tesco, WWE, Argos, Ikea - you get the point. Whatever the best deal is for APAT, that"s who we should be sponsored by, and I trust Des to do the best for APAT in the long run.
Everything else; I don"t play APAT online because it"s just too much. 20 league games a year @ $10 = $200. Multiply that by 2 for Joobs and that"s $400. Then you have the online champs and the Omaha champs, then the WOCOAP - either way you"re looking at ~$1000pp over the year. That"s a LOT of money for a casual player. Even more for families that play.
Forum"s fine; I don"t think many big poker sites have much content bar the forum these days unless they"re in a niche market eg Hendon Mob Database, All Vegas Poker"s database etc. Fully expecting APAT to show up on Google+ soon, but apart from that all is good.
Feel free to shoot me on the 22nd October, Des/Tighty ;)
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TALLINN
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This - the rest is gravy ;D
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Not too fussed about the live venues, as long as there is plenty of free parking, and there are cheap hotels nearby. I don"t do the overseas events. Travelling to and playing in UK events is enough of a chore already. Online I refused to waste any bankroll playing on 888 this past season. (I will not waste bankroll playing on any i poker sites either).
My personal favourite network is Everleaf gaming, and I currently play on Raise and Fold. Unlike the pseudo random number generators used to generate the dealing algorythms on other poker networks, the Everleaf one is truly random, as the RNG is seeded by random radioactive particles from a lump of Chernoble triggering a photomultiplier tube, allegedly. Whatever the reason, I find the dealing to be fair and even, with hardly any bad beats occurring. Usually if you get your money in good on the flop your hand holds up on there. It has recently got a lot tougher to play on there since we got a massive influx of yanks who were looking for a home after Tilt went belly up, but I still prefer it to some of the previous sites that I have played on.
As for the rest of it, I think Des and the team have done a really fantastic job so far organising 6 seasons of APAT action, and long may they continue doing so.
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Oh, and hire Paulie_D to work out these costs!
Why? I do this for free...it"s the (questionable) value I add.
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Oh, and hire Paulie_D to work out these costs!
Why? I do this for free...it"s the (questionable) value I add.
Added bonus!
{I actually meant get you to book them for APAT so APAT can offer them to sat winners, then assist the winners with booking their flights}
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yep agree with most of above ,
couple of points for me ,
Early notification , for booking etc ,
Worlds - DTD for the win every time -early dates to enable booking of hotels etc
Blackpool for an individual tourney this time round , easy accomidation ant travel inks IMO
Sponsors - would love to see back on pokerstars , but know we have been there before
buy in- stay the same
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Great feedback so far guys...keep it coming.
What would you think of a cash tournament that you could exit at any point, but there is an incentive of a pro event seat at the end for the last man standing.
Runs as a tournament but you would sit with £100 in chips with blinds at £1 / £2 to start. The blinds would increase over time.
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{I actually meant get you to book them for APAT so APAT can offer them to sat winners, then assist the winners with booking their flights}
I kind of like the idea....it would mean that winning the satellite actually meant that you HAD to play the seat you"d won...no cashing out.
Not sure how popular that would be for the casual player though.
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Great feedback so far guys...keep it coming.
What would you think of a cash tournament that you could exit at any point, but there is an incentive of a pro event seat at the end for the last man standing.
Runs as a tournament but you would sit with £100 in chips with blinds at £1 / £2 to start. The blinds would increase over time.
I think that would work as part of a larger "festival" (WCOAP) or the like...or as a side event... but, speaking for myself, I wouldn"t want to lose a "standard" Event for it.
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Just a thought, could we get sponsorship from Carlsberg,Bulmers,Adagio etc :-*
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I"ll give it more thought and post some more in a day or two.
In the meantime may I just make one (rather lengthy) point.
Up until this year there was not a single tournament anywhere in the UK for around £100 that I would rather play than an APAT event. This is for several reasons which we all know about.
Prestige
Banter
Excellent Structure
Big tourney feel for small buy ins etc, etc.
Also of all the APAT events the WCOAP in particular is the top of the pile and the whole event is just superb.
However this year having won seat(s) very cheaply for the Goliath at Coventry I played it and this restricted my participation in the WCOAP to just the main event.
It was a great shame for me that the 2 events clashed.
They have not announced it officially yet but after speaking to the guy who came up with the idea for the Goliath in the first place they have already had discussions re 2012 and are 99.9% certain it will run in the same week next year. Up to and including the August Bank Holiday weekend in 2012.
2012 will have 3 day 1"s Wed, Thurs, Fri. Day 2 Sat, Day 3 Sunday with the Final table on bank holiday Monday. Each of the 3 day ones will be capped at 1,000 players as they will be using an even bigger hall than they did this year. They will fill it for sure.
I know it"s your decision how and when you run your events but I wanted to let you know of the dates as it will potentially reduce your numbers for what is rightly your premier event. For me personally if they do run in the same week I know I"ll have some difficult choices to make.
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Please an APAT in liverpool !!!
Circus or leo s could easily stage it .
Apart from that happy with whatever you decide .
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Oh one other thing , maybe putting teams together in league like birmingham / walsall did last year. Otherwise would be pretty pointless playing next year!
such as liverpool / manchester, dublin /belfast, glasgow/ edinburgh etc . Just dont give the west midlands any more players bit naughty last year giving walsall as champs more players (only team to get players form another div 1 team) be nice to get the playin field a bit more level and could give other teams a chance !
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OK then, here we go....
Countries - I would like to see Dublin back on the schedule personally as I just love going there (didn"t we all ?) but if as stated elsewhere, the plan would be to move it to a different time, then so be it.
If there is going to be an APAT "Non-British" event, then why not Spain or Portugal, but make it between May-September so it could be used as an excuse to take the family away on holiday ?
Venues - Would love to see Walsall back on the map, especially now that it is a "G" but if not, then by all accounts the Gala in Brum is now pretty good.
WCOAP - DTD is the obvious venue for this.
Online League - This has suffered greatly this year due to the moving of sites and times etc and while I sympathise with the behind-the-scenes problems encountered by you at APAT, this needs sorting for S6 or else there will be no League left.
Timing of live events - I don"t know what the majority feel about this, but for me, telling the Mrs that I am away EVERY Bank Holiday weekend with APAT did not go down well !! Do they have to be the last weekend ?
Finally, an idea of my own.
I want to put forward an idea that I broached with Leigh just before he left the APAT heirarchy....and I fully believe that this event would be worthy of being a stand-alone tournament with a great deep structure and that is a CHAMPION OF CHAMPIONS tourney.
APAT now boasts 5 seasons of Online and Live Champions and it is my opinion that an invitation-only event of this nature would attract a good sized field (possibly a £100 entry?) and would probably be "The One" that anyone eligible would want to win.
It could be run once every season, maybe as the season-opener, and then every player winning a Title in Season 6 would know that they would be getting an invite to The event in Season 7 and so on.
Any thoughts guys n gals ?
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Goliath at Coventry
It was a great shame for me that the 2 events clashed.
They have not announced it officially yet but after speaking to the guy who came up with the idea for the Goliath in the first place they have already had discussions re 2012 and are 99.9% certain it will run in the same week next year. Up to and including the August Bank Holiday weekend in 2012.
There is a 4 day break in June in 2012 due to the Jubilee...I"m just saying.
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Well done APAT on 5 seasons of success.
As most know, I am a big fan of APAT and have played a few events each season. I do always admire Des and the teams approach to taking on board comments made by members and people often forget that they can"t please everyone all of the time.
My opinion is that when APAT started it was unique, it was groundbreaking, and it was new. In the first few seasons it grew and stayed ahead of the rest, it retained it"s USPs. Some ideas were tried that didn"t work but the ones that did stuck and grew more.
but.... IMO the momentum is not what it used to be. The core "product" is still excellent and still the prefered choice of many, the new ideas are good, but the fact is the other are catching up. I would even go as far as saying the others are in some ways ahead. Before the defenders of all things APAT step in can I say that I am not critising APAT or the team that put it all together I am mearly saying that IMO the others have caught up and there is a risk that they will soon be the ones holding the Aces.
So what is the "vision"? a question I have asked many times before on this forum. Do APAT want to stay ahead of the pack, do they want to continue providing the excellent tour as is with some year on year improvements? do they want to go global? do they want to influence the poker world and drive out rake in all tournamnets?, are they going to push for standard rules? do they want to be the springboard for players looking to get into bigger events or do they themselves want to provide those bigger events?
Share the vision Des - then the ideas for improvement can be aligned to that vision.
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imo,,there should be less team events and less events abroad,,,these events rule out to many players,,players may then look elsewhere for a game and not come back.
I agree
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great idea from Paulie, if we are to have another 3 day event a Fri-Sun would allow those who can only get weekends off to compete.
I love the tourney structure and think you have got it right.
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I also don`t see a problem with going to a successful venue twice in a season if it suits our purpose
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Last year I asked this after the announcement. :"(
Des et al,
Where are we on the following?
APAT Magazine
APAT Association
APAT TV (live feed / no live feed?)
APAT Hall of Fame (did Tighty have a deadline for the write up on the latest entrant?)
Too busy on essential set up work with our new partner to get into any of this at the moment Stuart.
This year I"ll ask it before. ;D
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Like most people I think it"s agreed that you all do an awesome job. Only think I"d like to change/add is a couple more northern venues (Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Blackpool etc) for individual events.
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great idea from Paulie, if we are to have another 3 day event a Fri-Sun would allow those who can only get weekends off to compete.
Thank you...the break in June 2012 is actually Sat - Tue (they moved the May bank holiday)...I"m just saying.
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Like most people I think it"s agreed that you all do an awesome job. Only think I"d like to change/add is a couple more northern venues (Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Blackpool etc) for individual events.
[/quo
thought most were in the north lol
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Like most people I think it"s agreed that you all do an awesome job. Only think I"d like to change/add is a couple more northern venues (Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Blackpool etc) for individual events.
thought most were in the north lol
It"s the quality of the people in the South not the quantity. ;D ;D ;D
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On Brian"s idea for a CoC event, i first thought it was a terrible idea but then i realised, i"d won an online title so it"s now a goer for me..... :D
Seriously though it"s not a bad idea, but it does exclude too many members and would take up too many resources at the expense of a national for it to be a viable event. Maybe having it as a Friday night crapshoot the night before a National would be a goer?
Will post a few more thoughts on S6 later...
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Well done APAT on 5 seasons of success.
As most know, I am a big fan of APAT and have played a few events each season. I do always admire Des and the teams approach to taking on board comments made by members and people often forget that they can"t please everyone all of the time.
My opinion is that when APAT started it was unique, it was groundbreaking, and it was new. In the first few seasons it grew and stayed ahead of the rest, it retained it"s USPs. Some ideas were tried that didn"t work but the ones that did stuck and grew more.
but.... IMO the momentum is not what it used to be. The core "product" is still excellent and still the prefered choice of many, the new ideas are good, but the fact is the other are catching up. I would even go as far as saying the others are in some ways ahead. Before the defenders of all things APAT step in can I say that I am not critising APAT or the team that put it all together I am mearly saying that IMO the others have caught up and there is a risk that they will soon be the ones holding the Aces.
So what is the "vision"? a question I have asked many times before on this forum. Do APAT want to stay ahead of the pack, do they want to continue providing the excellent tour as is with some year on year improvements? do they want to go global? do they want to influence the poker world and drive out rake in all tournamnets?, are they going to push for standard rules? do they want to be the springboard for players looking to get into bigger events or do they themselves want to provide those bigger events?
Share the vision Des - then the ideas for improvement can be aligned to that vision.
Superb post, very important to consider this with next years plans. I also will have a go at posting my ideas in next few days.
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i would love to see an apat event either in austria or in czech republic!
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I"ll give it more thought and post some more in a day or two.
In the meantime may I just make one (rather lengthy) point.
Up until this year there was not a single tournament anywhere in the UK for around £100 that I would rather play than an APAT event. This is for several reasons which we all know about.
Prestige
Banter
Excellent Structure
Big tourney feel for small buy ins etc, etc.
Also of all the APAT events the WCOAP in particular is the top of the pile and the whole event is just superb.
However this year having won seat(s) very cheaply for the Goliath at Coventry I played it and this restricted my participation in the WCOAP to just the main event.
It was a great shame for me that the 2 events clashed.
They have not announced it officially yet but after speaking to the guy who came up with the idea for the Goliath in the first place they have already had discussions re 2012 and are 99.9% certain it will run in the same week next year. Up to and including the August Bank Holiday weekend in 2012.
2012 will have 3 day 1"s Wed, Thurs, Fri. Day 2 Sat, Day 3 Sunday with the Final table on bank holiday Monday. Each of the 3 day ones will be capped at 1,000 players as they will be using an even bigger hall than they did this year. They will fill it for sure.
I know it"s your decision how and when you run your events but I wanted to let you know of the dates as it will potentially reduce your numbers for what is rightly your premier event. For me personally if they do run in the same week I know I"ll have some difficult choices to make.
the problem with this is the schedule is so crowded
We cannot go earlier in August...WSOP and summer holidays
If we go even a week later we"re into DTD Deepstack and then the Sky Poker Tour Grand Final
Currently we are booked into DTD for the same weekend next year
This year we had nearly 900 players (not unique players, obviously some played several events) over the WCOAP festival which was a good performance
Next year will be the fourth WCOAP on the same weekend, now an established event in the calendar.
it is a difficult event to move for reasons described above
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Please an APAT in liverpool !!!
Circus or leo s could easily stage it .
Apart from that happy with whatever you decide .
Do either venue have a track record of succesfully running third party large events?
If so, details please
Didn"t the Genting megastack in liverpool flop?
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OK then, here we go....
Countries - I would like to see Dublin back on the schedule personally as I just love going there (didn"t we all ?) but if as stated elsewhere, the plan would be to move it to a different time, then so be it.
If there is going to be an APAT "Non-British" event, then why not Spain or Portugal, but make it between May-September so it could be used as an excuse to take the family away on holiday ?
Venues - Would love to see Walsall back on the map, especially now that it is a "G" but if not, then by all accounts the Gala in Brum is now pretty good.
WCOAP - DTD is the obvious venue for this.
Online League - This has suffered greatly this year due to the moving of sites and times etc and while I sympathise with the behind-the-scenes problems encountered by you at APAT, this needs sorting for S6 or else there will be no League left.
Timing of live events - I don"t know what the majority feel about this, but for me, telling the Mrs that I am away EVERY Bank Holiday weekend with APAT did not go down well !! Do they have to be the last weekend ?
Finally, an idea of my own.
I want to put forward an idea that I broached with Leigh just before he left the APAT heirarchy....and I fully believe that this event would be worthy of being a stand-alone tournament with a great deep structure and that is a CHAMPION OF CHAMPIONS tourney.
APAT now boasts 5 seasons of Online and Live Champions and it is my opinion that an invitation-only event of this nature would attract a good sized field (possibly a £100 entry?) and would probably be "The One" that anyone eligible would want to win.
It could be run once every season, maybe as the season-opener, and then every player winning a Title in Season 6 would know that they would be getting an invite to The event in Season 7 and so on.
Any thoughts guys n gals ?
Mostly likely it will be the Macau again
Overseas events...most likely to make them off season so people will be free of family holiday commitments. This is the first time I have heard someone wanting an overseas event in the summer, at a time when most will be on family hoilidays
Walsall, yes, a good refurbishment. On my "long list". Gala"s...not generally interested in hosting us, unless anyone lets me know different I have 20 or so venues on the list before any Gala
Online league. The aim will be to have a schedule, on one site, announce it at the start and stick with it. This year has been unsatisfactory for several reasons, not to be repeated we hope
Timing of events. Well not easy. The GUKPTs are established mid month, the UKIPTs are established third weekends, first weekends have DTD Deepstack, Genting megastacks etc. It tends to be that the final weekend of each month is where there are free slots in the calendar for us, looking not to clash as much as possible
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Last year I asked this after the announcement. :"(
Des et al,
Where are we on the following?
APAT Magazine
APAT Association
APAT TV (live feed / no live feed?)
APAT Hall of Fame (did Tighty have a deadline for the write up on the latest entrant?)
Too busy on essential set up work with our new partner to get into any of this at the moment Stuart.
This year I"ll ask it before. ;D
Magazine. On the way very shortly, been in progress a few weeks
Association. Yes. Time and resource!
Live feed. Entirely down to the sponsorship package secured
HoF I think I am the only entry to be written up, and I am not writing my own!
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Like most people I think it"s agreed that you all do an awesome job. Only think I"d like to change/add is a couple more northern venues (Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Blackpool etc) for individual events.
The majority of events are already Midlands and North!
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Well done APAT on 5 seasons of success.
As most know, I am a big fan of APAT and have played a few events each season. I do always admire Des and the teams approach to taking on board comments made by members and people often forget that they can"t please everyone all of the time.
My opinion is that when APAT started it was unique, it was groundbreaking, and it was new. In the first few seasons it grew and stayed ahead of the rest, it retained it"s USPs. Some ideas were tried that didn"t work but the ones that did stuck and grew more.
but.... IMO the momentum is not what it used to be. The core "product" is still excellent and still the prefered choice of many, the new ideas are good, but the fact is the other are catching up. I would even go as far as saying the others are in some ways ahead. Before the defenders of all things APAT step in can I say that I am not critising APAT or the team that put it all together I am mearly saying that IMO the others have caught up and there is a risk that they will soon be the ones holding the Aces.
So what is the "vision"? a question I have asked many times before on this forum. Do APAT want to stay ahead of the pack, do they want to continue providing the excellent tour as is with some year on year improvements? do they want to go global? do they want to influence the poker world and drive out rake in all tournamnets?, are they going to push for standard rules? do they want to be the springboard for players looking to get into bigger events or do they themselves want to provide those bigger events?
Share the vision Des - then the ideas for improvement can be aligned to that vision.
Superb post, very important to consider this with next years plans. I also will have a go at posting my ideas in next few days.
When we started there was very little festival poker apart from the individual casino weeks such as Midlands Meltdown, Christmas Cracker etc
Since then we have GUKPT, GBPT, UKIPT, SPT as well as PKR Live, betfair Live etc etc etc at varying buy in levels all with different attractions
So, the competitive landscape is more challenging, players have a lot more choice and allied to that post black friday/online poker rooms struggling the Sponsorship environment is extremely different
The plan for S6 is to push forward and take APAT onwards (new concepts being a part of that), within the overall remit of providing affordable and registration free recreational poker with festival structures
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Everything is perfect :) Amsterdam for a European venue!
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Everything is perfect :) Amsterdam for a European venue!
would love to, but Holland Casinos are government owned and prohibit tournaments from third party providers in their country.
Hence you don"t see EPT, WPT etc there either
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can we PLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE do Tallinn again? pretty pretty please?
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Everything is perfect :) Amsterdam for a European venue!
would love to, but Holland Casinos are government owned and prohibit tournaments from third party providers in their country.
Hence you don"t see EPT, WPT etc there either
Didn"t know that, APAT is sooooooooooooooooo educating
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can we PLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE do Tallinn again? pretty pretty please?
I loved Tallinn. For several reasons not all connected with the poker!
A bit inaccessible though, no?
Not that there is an official policy or anything but I think overseas venues going forward
a) accessible
b) preferably new to APAT ("spread the word"/new members)
Also need a lot of thought on the balance overseas and home legs given feedback so far
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Curlage had some very interesting and complimentary things to say about Vilamoura in Portugal.
I think he"s over there now and I recall that he might have (or was going to) mention them to Des & Tighty.
If he doesn"t chime in...somebody poke him.
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hi all,very good casino in malaga [benalmadana] at the hotel torreqebrada played there a couple of times.full tilt have some torneys there.plenty of accomadation & easy cheap flights.just a thought.
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can we PLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE do Tallinn again? pretty pretty please?
I loved Tallinn. For several reasons not all connected with the poker!
A bit inaccessible though, no?
Not that there is an official policy or anything but I think overseas venues going forward
a) accessible
b) preferably new to APAT ("spread the word"/new members)
Also need a lot of thought on the balance overseas and home legs given feedback so far
thats fair enough i suppose :) will probably still go wherever they end up, they are a superb laugh and us who go really really enjoy ourselves. dont get rid of any
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can we PLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE do Tallinn again? pretty pretty please?
I loved Tallinn. For several reasons not all connected with the poker!
A bit inaccessible though, no?
Not that there is an official policy or anything but I think overseas venues going forward
a) accessible
b) preferably new to APAT ("spread the word"/new members)
Also need a lot of thought on the balance overseas and home legs given feedback so far
thats fair enough i suppose :) will probably still go wherever they end up, they are a superb laugh and us who go really really enjoy ourselves. dont get rid of any
something has to give though
same number of European events = a majority unhappy at too few UK events
Anyway, we"ll work it out
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to be honest, if you don"t change anything at all, it would still be a great tour and association.
That said, I don"t see the value in the European events - I appreciate the desire to spread the word, but I don"t see much development in those countries after the one off events occur, meaning that realistically, they aren"t much more than holiday events for the APAT regular community.... I would prefer to see those weekends, and the associated effort of the team, better spent hosting an extra UK based event that caters for far more of the APAT community, and attracts far more new future regulars.
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Tighty....you commented on most of my points, yet nothing on the C of C ??
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Curlage had some very interesting and complimentary things to say about Vilamoura in Portugal.
I think he"s over there now and I recall that he might have (or was going to) mention them to Des & Tighty.
If he doesn"t chime in...somebody poke him.
May have changed lately but afaik poker in Portugal is very strictly regulated.
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Tighty....you commented on most of my points, yet nothing on the C of C ??
Personally speaking, I don"t really see the point in this event.
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What about an APAT Virgins event? (or APAT Beginners)
Running alongside the regular £75 event it could be something like a £25 buy-in and only available to players who have never played an APAT before. (Difficult to police I know but some trust has to be allowed).
My thinking is that we all have WAGs/HABs, parents, children, friends etc. who might want to play a proper poker event but have never plucked up the courage to enter the unfamilar.
I think this is more in-keeping with the values of APAT and brings in new members rather than a closed shop event like a CoC.
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Curlage had some very interesting and complimentary things to say about Vilamoura in Portugal.
I think he"s over there now and I recall that he might have (or was going to) mention them to Des & Tighty.
If he doesn"t chime in...somebody poke him.
May have changed lately but afaik poker in Portugal is very strictly regulated.
It is...but Curlage has a contact at the Casino there and seemed to think there wasn"t anything that couldn"t be overcome.
I recall that Spain was pretty strict too and that went OK.
Plus if we do it in early 2013 we have plenty of time to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s. ;D
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Live
- Countries
Slovenia is good; Perla Hotel & Casino in Nova Gorica is a quality hotel at a good price (for poker players), hotel provides transfers from Trieste or Venice FOC.
I really like Lloret and would gladly return. I heard a suggestion that Madrid may be on the cards? (Juan having moved casinos?)... I"ve not done any research, but I would expect that capital city accomodation prices will be much higher than out of season holiday resort?
- Structure
- Buy in
- Pay structure
Fine as they are, except... Deals should be allowed in UK tournaments, as they already are [have been] in forgein events.
- Added value
Staying "Juice Free" is more important than added value. Every player benefits from this, not just the winner.
- Trophies / medals
Not a popular view I know but, they are not important to me. If sponsor"s cash is limited then imo priority should be 1. Juice free tournaments; 2. Added Value; 3. Trophies.
- Streaming
Not worth the expense.
- Live updates
Excellent, hopefully to be continued.
- Team events
Too many
- Formats, ie reentry, rebuys, etc
Re-entries are terrible, especially not suited to a situation where the juice is being paid by a sponsor. Generally I"m not a fan of re-buys.
- Guarantees
Not necessary.
- Schedule, ie is one event a month right, etc
Yes, but as has already been pointed out, the schedule needs to be more balanced with the individual national events more evenly spread through the year to maitain interest of the majority.
Other
- Forum
Generally OK. Too much space taken up at the top of the page with banners.
- Main site
Don"t like it and hardly ever visit it. I, as several APAT newcomers have commented, find it very un-userfriendly.
- Facebook Group
Have an account but don"t really use it. I unjoined the APAT group because of the [too] numerous email notifications.
- Twitter
Haven"t bothered following APAT on twitter, I assume the same info gets tweeted that I didn"t want to keep receiving by [facebook] email.
- Any other thoughts or ideas that you may have beyond the above.
Poker calendar congestion and clash avoidance has been mentioned earlier in the thread... I see no reason why APAT needs to worry about clashes with any tournament with a buy-in in excess of £150.
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My Twopenniesworth
If it aint broke,, dont fix it
Venues
DTD must stay as the Main Event
G casinos Walsall or Coventry for the Midlands (not both)
Blackpool for an individual event
Brighton? Why not? Maybe a bit pricey on accommodation but worth the trip IMO
Dublin to be sure, to be sure
Scotland, Och Aye!! Glasgow or Edinburgh for logistics reasons
Wales, Swansea or Cardiff, unless Rhyl has a casino?
Yorkshire getting some support, love to, beautiful place to stagger through at 4am
Events
As you were this year at once a month but a little better spread maybe, after DTD MAIN EVENT this year, there isnt an event for the solo player on a budget, (Luton - team event, Las Vegas - miles away, London- Masters pro-am,), and the amateur budget player is APATs target? This is NOT a complaint but an observation.(before I get jumped on ;D )
And on that theme, I read an earlier post which didnt support the Pub Team Challenge in Blackpool this year. I fully support that event and REALLY REALLY REALLY hope it stays on the calender, in a seaside town too. I took a team from my local pub and thats 7 NEW players itching to play APAT events again, surely this is APATS target audience again?
I would even put that event on twice a year, maybe 8 player teams followed by 4 player teams (early season and late season) to encourage new talent to join
Events overseas
No opinion, as long as its not detrimental to the UK series
Buy-ins
As you are, £75 and £50, maybe an odd £25 side event ( credit crunch still hurts, note the ""big guns"" playing the Genting poker player game at £150 buy in?)
Online
Pick a site that doesnt crash repeatedly, that is all
Thats my opinion (for now)
Mooch
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Stu"s idea for the APAT virgins event is a great one, wives and kids might be encouraged to come along and give it ago, and graduate to the big leagues at a later date.
European Tours - I do not see the point in these other than appeasing sponsors. If that is the make or break with any sponsorship deal then fine, if not then lets have more UK events.
Schedule - Is it possible not to hit every Bank Holiday weekend? I for one find these very difficult to make.
WCOAP - At DTD, brilliant, why change a winning formula.
Buy ins - Please don"t change these.
888 - I have actually really enjoyed playing on 888 and apart from one or two league games where disaster has struck it has been a good site to play on, far better than BF.
On Line League - 20 weeks maybe too long, cut it back to 12 - 15 events, this may then attract to more people playing the $50 main event games.
All structures are really good
Team Events - Great fun stick with them, team play makes for a different dynamic.
Added value - I don"t think the majority of APAT players play the events for the money, but the added value seats that BF provided were great.
But most of all just keep doing what you are doing guys!
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Curlage had some very interesting and complimentary things to say about Vilamoura in Portugal.
I think he"s over there now and I recall that he might have (or was going to) mention them to Des & Tighty.
If he doesn"t chime in...somebody poke him.
May have changed lately but afaik poker in Portugal is very strictly regulated.
It is...but Curlage has a contact at the Casino there and seemed to think there wasn"t anything that couldn"t be overcome.
I recall that Spain was pretty strict too and that went OK.
Plus if we do it in early 2013 we have plenty of time to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s. ;D
Sounds good Paulie and hope it"s possible, I"m a big fan of Portugal as a holiday destination tbh.
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European Tours - I do not see the point in these other than appeasing sponsors. If that is the make or break with any sponsorship deal then fine, if not then lets have more UK events.
Not a dig at anyone but I keep seeing this comment and I keep thinking...do they think there are lots of these every year?
There isn"t....it"s ONE event....that"s it...just one solitary, single, lone event a year.
Sure not having it MIGHT mean that you get another UK event...but no more. I know that the thought of even just one more mainland event appeals to most but if it"s timed and located right it should be no more expensive than Scotland or Newcastle or Cork.
Of course, I"m biased...I love them. :)
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European Tours - I do not see the point in these other than appeasing sponsors. If that is the make or break with any sponsorship deal then fine, if not then lets have more UK events.
Not a dig at anyone but I keep seeing this comment and I keep thinking...do they think there are lots of these every year?
There isn"t....it"s ONE event....that"s it...just one solitary, single, lone event a year.
Sure not having it MIGHT mean that you get another UK event...but no more. I know that the thought of even just one more mainland event appeals to most but if it"s timed and located right it should be no more expensive than Scotland or Newcastle or Cork.
Of course, I"m biased...I love them. :)
Wasn"t Spain and Estonia in the same season?
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European Tours - I do not see the point in these other than appeasing sponsors. If that is the make or break with any sponsorship deal then fine, if not then lets have more UK events.
Not a dig at anyone but I keep seeing this comment and I keep thinking...do they think there are lots of these every year?
There isn"t....it"s ONE event....that"s it...just one solitary, single, lone event a year.
Sure not having it MIGHT mean that you get another UK event...but no more. I know that the thought of even just one more mainland event appeals to most but if it"s timed and located right it should be no more expensive than Scotland or Newcastle or Cork.
Of course, I"m biased...I love them. :)
Wasn"t Spain and Estonia in the same season?
And Vienna? I think? Not that I"m against them. I would also classify Cork (or Dublin) in the same bracket as the Euro events cost wise.
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Just got the wifi up here in very sunny Portugal. Am meeting with head honcho tomorrow, before playing the next leg of portuguese poker tour here in Monte Gordo, re possible trip and will report back to the powers that be, next week.
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Ohh it"s a hard life Rich LOL have a good one and good luck
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Buy-ins
As you are, £75 and £50, maybe an odd £25 side event ( credit crunch still hurts, note the ""big guns"" playing the Genting poker player game at £150 buy in?)
Mooch
the ""big guns"" were playing at The Players Championship £150 not because of the credit crunch but because they are members of the Hendon Mob who have split from Full Tilt and are now sponsored by Genting.
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Buy-ins
As you are, £75 and £50, maybe an odd £25 side event ( credit crunch still hurts, note the ""big guns"" playing the Genting poker player game at £150 buy in?)
Mooch
the ""big guns"" were playing at The Players Championship £150 not because of the credit crunch but because they are members of the Hendon Mob who have split from Full Tilt and are now sponsored by Genting.
Point taken, didnt know that bit, Does that include Paul Jackson?
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Yes because BRS had over 15 players in, and Paul has links with genting via his ipoker skin. You are barking up the wrong tree
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As predicted, West Midlands looks likely to win the online league again - by a bigger margin than previously. It is becoming the case that the only question each year is which WM players will get the UKIPT seats. Not sure what the solution is, but this is not good for the league - numbers are already declining. Also, the league goes on a bit too long.
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As predicted, West Midlands looks likely to win the online league again - by a bigger margin than previously. It is becoming the case that the only question each year is which WM players will get the UKIPT seats. Not sure what the solution is, but this is not good for the league - numbers are already declining. Also, the league goes on a bit too long.
join other teams together as i posted earlier. walsall / birmingham joined last year so leave them as they are and put other teams together to bolster regular players for each team. Recruiting new players is easy but getting regulars to turn up week in week out is a lot harder.
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My twopence worth on the Live events
- Countries
1 or 2 overseas trips a year seems about right, not suitable for all but spreads the word and increases membership as well as being a jolly for those that want to go.
- Venues
I think the quality of the tournament very much depends on the attitude/experience of the card room manager and staff. I venue which may have been poor when we last visted could easily be good if they have changed management and visa versa.
- Structure
Spot on, don"t change it.
- Buy in
Spot on for Nationals and side events. I would up the £50 side events at the worlds as they are popular and have a smaller field. Perhaps some at £50 some at £100 would work.
I would also have 1 "high roller" event in the season, a bit like the pro/am but have a bigger buyin (£500?) and run satelittes throughout the year or offer entry as added value.
- Pay structure
Been debated many times before. Nobody seems to be crying out to change it back so leave as is.
- Added value
Nobody complains about this. ;D
- Trophies / medals
These must stay IMO. Many new APATers have commented to me that they like the idea of getting a momento for their efforts as the money soon gets spent and forgotten.
- Rules
Write a set, adopt a set, I don"t care, just stick to them. IMO the only way to do this is to have the same TDs for all tournaments. Not very practical I know but Tighty would get my vote if he fancied a change from updating.
- WCOAP
See above re buy-in. DTD is the only place to do this in UK.
- Streaming
How many people watch it? Is the cost worth it?
IMO it detracted from the updates (due to staff numbers) and for that reason I would ditch it.
Des interviews on video are way better and are there forever (unfortunatly in some cases :-[)
- Live updates
Lose these and you will lose some of what makes APAT what it is. Clone Tighty.
- Post event reports
Much better when they were higher profile.
- Photo galleries
Good. Make the live updates more interesting too (particularly when Tighty takes a shine for a special dealer!)
- Team events
Always popular with those that are picked and get to play, not so popular for those that aren"t.
- Side events
Gives options for the second day when knocked out on Day 1 and for that reason should stay.
- Formats, ie reentry, rebuys, etc
A mix of formats is good. Perhaps introduce something like a rebuy for a side event but not a National as is can favour those with more bankroll.
Other tours are introducing things like "win the button" and "rivers turbo". Bounty tournaments are popping up everywhere. APAT are behind the pack in this area IMO.
- Guarantees
Are they needed when events generally sell out anyway? If we find a sponsor willing to put them up how long would they stay if they constantly had overlay?
- Schedule, ie is one event a month right, etc
Yes
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We cannot go earlier in August...WSOP and summer holidays
Does the WSOP affect APAT's schedule?
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On a couple of points
APAT rules are used at all events. Provided to venue beforehand. Often though "in the heat of the moment" TD"s revert to their norm, particularly if its not the main person on duty. Its down to quality of card-room manager briefing of their teams. Some are receptive to prods, some aren"t, mid event
An APAT TD is fine in principal, but it diverts a lot of resource away from the other stuff that needs doing over a weekend if an APAT organiser did it. Getting an external TD for all APATs (eg Dena) would be great, but down to funding as ever
New concepts like bounties, turbos, re-entries. I think these are unneccesary for APAT nationals, which work perfectly well. They provide affordable long clock tournaments, orginially for those comparatively inexperienced in tournament poker. I don"t think fiddling with bells and whistles for APAT National Championships is the way to go. Experimenting in some side events is on the agenda though.
Post event reporting: I was unaware it was any lower profile than it used to be, still provided externally within 24 hours of an event.
Obviously there is little overlap between the WSOP and APAT in terms of player bases but a clash is undesirable because getting coverage/airtime/exposure to an APAT event during the WSOP is tough. An APAT event is not just about the weekend itself its about publicity, gaining membership, strengthening the brand etc etc
A clash with big UK festival events is undesirable because often the people required to run an APAT are busy/working at the bigger events too. Can"t be two places at once. In addition APAT added value has to date been into EPT/GUKPT/UKIPT and presumably the same next year. Put an APAT on alongside these and it becomes tougher for APAT players to use that added value.
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An APAT TD is fine in principal, but it diverts a lot of resource away from the other stuff that needs doing over a weekend if an APAT organiser did it. Getting an external TD for all APATs (eg Dena) would be great, but down to funding as ever
OK, I"ve changed my mind. Tighty you"re back on updates mate. :o
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New concepts like bounties, turbos, re-entries. I think these are unneccesary for APAT nationals, which work perfectly well. They provide affordable long clock tournaments, orginially for those comparatively inexperienced in tournament poker. I don"t think fiddling with bells and whistles for APAT National Championships is the way to go. Experimenting in some side events is on the agenda though.
100% agree.
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OK, here goes:
Countries: One event outside of the UK/Ireland seems about right. I haven"t been on one, but they sound like a right laugh!
Venues: I quite like the idea of a Liverpool/Manchester leg, although I wouldn"t mind Brighton given that I can walk to both casinos!
Structure/buy in/pay structure: All fine. I think most APATers are happy just to cash, so the pay structure is not top of their priorities.
Added Value: Not to be expected, but always a bonus when there is added value. It was great to see Swinebag do so well in the UKIPT after winning the seat in the Scottish Online Champs.
From "trophies" down to "team events": No real view. All seems good to me.
Side events: A good addition. Most of us have been knocked out by Day 2, and if we have travelled a long way we will have booked Sunday night at a hotel IN CASE we do well (usually not the case!). So the Sunday side event is welcome, and I particularly like the fact that it covers the other variations (hence, no need for a NLHE side event).
Formats: Personally, I"m not a fan of re-buys, even though that"s all they offered at the Rendezvous in Brighton when I started playing. As someone else said earlier, it helps those with big pockets. It also changes the way the game is played, and not for the better IMO.
Schedule: A big one for me. As a teacher, I can"t attend most events. No need for the violins - I get 15 weeks off a year - but sadly I can"t take any ONE day off. So the best weekends for me are (obviously) those in the holidays or those at the start of a half term. The end of a half term is no good as I can"t have the Monday off. Do feel free to ignore all this - with the current schedule I still manage about three events a year.
Online: The Chamionships on Saturdays are not ideal because, I assume, it"s the night one might go out, but there"s no other day really, what with the league on the Sunday. I think Sundays are best, so perhaps you hold the Chamionships on Sundays with no leagues? Again, feel free to ignore. They are all good fun and I do manage to play a few every year.
Probably enough to be going on with. Of course, thanks again to Tighty, Des and Leigh for the massive amount of work involved. Great set-ups like APAT need passion as well, and all three have it in spades. THANKS!
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As predicted, West Midlands looks likely to win the online league again - by a bigger margin than previously.
Whoo there tiger! :) ;)
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European events.
Excluding Ireland, which is a given, the consensus seems to be that most would prefer just a single European event on the schedule as long as it doesn"t impact the UK tour.
That being the case...when would be the optimal timeframe for it?
My preference is for January (off season) and would, I presume, represent the final event of the APAT season.
What say you?
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European events.
Excluding Ireland, which is a given, the consensus seems to be that most would prefer just a single European event on the schedule as long as it doesn"t impact the UK tour.
That being the case...when would be the optimal timeframe for it?
My preference is for January (off season) and would, I presume, represent the final event of the APAT season.
What say you?
I (like many) find this the hardest month with regard spare pennies which generally prevents me from going.
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I (like many) find this the hardest month with regard spare pennies which generally prevents me from going.
I don"t know how many would agree...although it could be a few, but it would be the cheapest time to go to somewhere like Spain/Portugal.
As it would be (under my "plan") the final event it shouldn"t impact on the schedule too much but I"m interested ( and I expect Des/Tighty would be) in other opinions.
If not January..then when?
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New concepts like bounties, turbos, re-entries. I think these are unneccesary for APAT nationals, which work perfectly well. They provide affordable long clock tournaments, orginially for those comparatively inexperienced in tournament poker. I don"t think fiddling with bells and whistles for APAT National Championships is the way to go. Experimenting in some side events is on the agenda though.
100% agree.
I couldnt agree more too.
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I (like many) find this the hardest month with regard spare pennies which generally prevents me from going.
I don"t know how many would agree...although it could be a few, but it would be the cheapest time to go to somewhere like Spain/Portugal.
As it would be (under my "plan") the final event it shouldn"t impact on the schedule too much but I"m interested ( and I expect Des/Tighty would be) in other opinions.
If not January..then when?
March
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I (like many) find this the hardest month with regard spare pennies which generally prevents me from going.
I don"t know how many would agree...although it could be a few, but it would be the cheapest time to go to somewhere like Spain/Portugal.
As it would be (under my "plan") the final event it shouldn"t impact on the schedule too much but I"m interested ( and I expect Des/Tighty would be) in other opinions.
If not January..then when?
March
March is kinda locked in for Ireland (I think)...but I"m sure Tighty will take it into consideration.
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I have wrote the initial schedule today. It is in early draft form and until it is signed off in a number of weeks time, anything is possible - so please continue to post your thoughts as per the original message.
Thanks,
Des.
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I have wrote the initial schedule today. It is in early draft form and until it is signed off in a number of weeks time, anything is possible - so please continue to post your thoughts as per the original message.
Thanks,
Des.
no APAT in stockton. Pleeeeease.
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I have a schedule written down too
Selling tickets to watch the discussion between Des and I, £5 a pop
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I have a schedule written down too
Selling tickets to watch the discussion between Des and I, £5 a pop
I"ll buy you a ticket...you watch and I"ll talk ;)
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I have a schedule written down too
Selling tickets to watch the discussion between Des and I, £5 a pop
I"ll buy you a ticket...you watch and I"ll talk ;)
Although it appears Tighty has just been OWNED by Des I would happily pay the £5 to watch as Tighty now makes life difficult for Des until he gives in on whatever point Tighty wants to win.
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I (like many) find this the hardest month with regard spare pennies which generally prevents me from going.
I don"t know how many would agree...although it could be a few, but it would be the cheapest time to go to somewhere like Spain/Portugal.
As it would be (under my "plan") the final event it shouldn"t impact on the schedule too much but I"m interested ( and I expect Des/Tighty would be) in other opinions.
If not January..then when?
March
March is kinda locked in for Ireland (I think)...but I"m sure Tighty will take it into consideration.
November
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November
Yeah...I think that would be the probable alternative but I think many would say that they need to save for Christmas so that"s another issue.
I guess there is no real "right" answer that will suit everyone....SIGH! ;D
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Febuary ?????
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Well that"s a very interesting point, because one of the proposed events being debated at the moment is a National League Live event, run like the UK Team Championship.
The objective being to incentivise players to become more involved with the National Online League and to reward those who do with entry to this event.
Would welcome thoughts from everyone?
I feel about that as others feel about the European events....if the "existing" events don"t suffer then I don"t have a problem with it.
I do have the feeling though that the majority (who expressed an opinion) were of the thought that there wasn"t any demand for MORE team events. Of course I could be wrong....it"s just my impression.
Perhaps replacing the Pub Poker Team event with a team event that incentivises the exiting base who don"t play live might be an option.
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Well that"s a very interesting point, because one of the proposed events being debated at the moment is a National League Live event, run like the UK Team Championship.
The objective being to incentivise players to become more involved with the National Online League and to reward those who do with entry to this event.
Would welcome thoughts from everyone?
I feel about that as others feel about the European events....if the "existing" events don"t suffer then I don"t have a problem with it.
I do have the feeling though that the majority (who expressed an opinion) were of the thought that there wasn"t any demand for MORE team events. Of course I could be wrong....it"s just my impression.
Perhaps replacing the Pub Poker Team event with a team event that incentivises the exiting base who don"t play live might be an option.
We"re certainly not looking to increase the number of team events in the calendar at the moment.
But using one to incentivise online participation could be a win win.
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I wish online sats were more successful, I would like to see more of these feeders run.
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Ahh the online league conundrum rears its head again.
My thoughts fwtw.
Numbers is a huge problem and I see no reason to change my original and often made point on this, a team of 7-10 players has no chance of competing with a team of 20-30 players. I fully understand the recruitment aspect of the competition, any potential sponsor would find it an attractive benefit to have apat league captains touting to bring players onto their platform, but! to date there"s been a kinda contra like affect. Team "A" recruits really well and grows from a 10 to a 17 plus player team, team "B" remains at 10 players and cannot compete, players lose incentive and drop out. Team "B" dissolves and the league is minus a team and nett minus 3 players. On top of that the grey area that is "team tactics" also causes consternation among players erodes team spirit and has caused players to leave the game.
To have any chance of surviving imho, teams must be of equal numbers. How do we do this?
How about........
- Teams of 10 or less
- Clubs can have multiple teams ( A,B,& C ) promotion within is optional ie: move up ranks from team "C" to team "A"
- League played as STT"s, one player per team at each table and points awarded as in World team event.
Benefits.
- Enhanced Team spirit
- Level playing field
- All points count so all players are included in team effort
- Grey area of Club v Club soft play is eliminated and team spirit enhanced
- Recruitment is still a legitmate option for Clubs but will not eliminate the weaker numbered Clubs
- Starting a new Club / Team is a less onerous task
- Shorter match length. ie: 1.5 hrs will fit easier into players lives
Imho much like the overall APAT ethos, Team spirit and camraderie is the niche selling point for this event and we should strive to eliminate all factors that diminish or hinder that aspect of the League.
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Ahh the online league conundrum rears its head again.
My thoughts fwtw.
Numbers is a huge problem and I see no reason to change my original and often made point on this, a team of 7-10 players has no chance of competing with a team of 20-30 players. I fully understand the recruitment aspect of the competition, any potential sponsor would find it an attractive benefit to have apat league captains touting to bring players onto their platform, but! to date there"s been a kinda contra like affect. Team "A" recruits really well and grows from a 10 to a 17 plus player team, team "B" remains at 10 players and cannot compete, players lose incentive and drop out. Team "B" dissolves and the league is minus a team and nett minus 3 players. On top of that the grey area that is "team tactics" also causes consternation among players erodes team spirit and has caused players to leave the game.
To have any chance of surviving imho, teams must be of equal numbers. How do we do this?
How about........
- Teams of 10 or less
- Clubs can have multiple teams ( A,B,& C ) promotion within is optional ie: move up ranks from team "C" to team "A"
- League played as STT"s, one player per team at each table and points awarded as in World team event.
Benefits.
- Enhanced Team spirit
- Level playing field
- All points count so all players are included in team effort
- Grey area of Club v Club soft play is eliminated and team spirit enhanced
- Recruitment is still a legitmate option for Clubs but will not eliminate the weaker numbered Clubs
- Starting a new Club / Team is a less onerous task
- Shorter match length. ie: 1.5 hrs will fit easier into players lives
Imho much like the overall APAT ethos, Team spirit and camraderie is the niche selling point for this event and we should strive to eliminate all factors that diminish or hinder that aspect of the League.
Great post Brendan. Can it work organisationally?
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Love Brendan"s post, the only problem for us smaller teams would be getting a guaranteed core of 10 who could play every single league game. However I love the proposed format and structure.
The current scoring system with only 3 teams scoring really has made getting people to play for Stockton impossible other than them treating it as just a $10 game and for the crack which may result in our relegation. Its no wonder the numbers have dropped to the levels they have done, and would predict they wont get any better for whats left of the season which is a real shame.
Anyway in summary massive plus one for Brendans proposal from Stockton x
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As predicted, West Midlands looks likely to win the online league again - by a bigger margin than previously. It is becoming the case that the only question each year is which WM players will get the UKIPT seats. Not sure what the solution is, but this is not good for the league - numbers are already declining. Also, the league goes on a bit too long.
West Midlands have never won the league
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This would be superb imo -
edit -The National League Tournament!
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Live:
I don't play too many live events so can't say much on this. Living in Essex does make one feel like a poker leper though when the nearest individual live event this season was in Coventry! I'm presuming lack of suitable venues is to blame for this rather than a general hatred of everything South East (hopefully)
It makes sense for the Worlds to be in central England but I don't think it has to be at DTD if a better option can be found elsewhere.
Please keep the medals. I managed to win one in 2010 for an online event and it's a nice memento and something I'm proud of. It'll always be there whereas the money has been long since donated back.
I like the idea of a live online league but it would probably have to be at the expense of one of the other "team" events. I think it's how you balance keeping the members happy against finding new members that will determine the outcome of this.
I would prefer to see more UK events and less overseas, but that's a selfish view as I can't ever see myself travelling abroad to play one of these events.
I haven't heard many complaints about the blind/prize structures of the live events so if it ain't broke..
Online:
I would prefer to see fewer satellites to the online championships but with seats guaranteed to encourage higher turnouts. I always feel that I have more chance with 50 runners 5 seats than 10 runners 1 seat, but the only way to get the 50 in the satellite to start with is to offer the guarantee? Maybe that's wrong, I don't know.
Online League:
Sorry this is a moan, but in my view the reason for the decline in numbers this year is because the league has been (this season) less than well-run. Much of this has been out of our control with a couple of software failures, date changes, lack of notice of new times, players unsure of what site the games would be played on and now a different start time.
I know it's difficult but I really hope next year we can stick with one sponsor and set the dates in stone at the start.
Limiting the size of teams would be a shockingly bad idea in my view. The aim is to encourage new players in, not to say "Sorry No Vacancies". Only 4 players scores count towards team points, which negates the affects of the larger teams to a degree. If as was suggested that a team could only have a maximum of ten players, you stand to lose far more members than a team of four that gives up because it apparently has no chance. Perhaps the administrators could look to re-define team boundaries in an attempt to even up the numbers a bit?
I'm sure whatever happens next season will be a good one!
PS - Don't forget Aspers Stratford East London opens soon.
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PS - Don't forget Aspers Stratford East London opens soon.
For some reason I thought this was a year away...but he"s right. December 2011.
Add another option to the S6 venue list. ;D
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Great post Brendan. Can it work organisationally?
If by "organisationally" you mean, can online software cope with the logistics?
Not really qualified to give a definitive answer other than. it depends on where the league is hosted but its not rocket science and where there"s a will there"s a way.
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Limiting the size of teams would be a shockingly bad idea in my view. The aim is to encourage new players in, not to say "Sorry No Vacancies".
If you take the time to notice, the current format has failed miserably in terms of attracting new players. See Ger"s earlier post......
Online National League
Look at the statistics.
Week 1 Total players 210
Last night Total players 73
Only 4 players scores count towards team points, which negates the affects of the larger teams to a degree.
The results to date suggest otherwise and it is totally illogical to suggest that a team can equitably compete when outnumbered by 3 or 4 players to 1
If as was suggested that a team could only have a maximum of ten players, you stand to lose far more members than a team of four that gives up because it apparently has no chance. Perhaps the administrators could look to re-define team boundaries in an attempt to even up the numbers a bit?
The suggestion is to limit team size but clubs can field several teams and thus have no limit on their club numbers. Within each club you could run a player promotion relegation over the season so as club members togging out for Luton "C" team, could aspire to play for the "A" team. Maybe a club are free to decide what team a player represents week by week and can manage their resources strategically so as to tactically out-manoeuvre the opposition. This can add to the team ethos and instill loyalty and continued commitment to the Team, Club and League.
But again, wake up, the current format is not growing numbers and without change the league will not survive.
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I have an idea for the online league: Random team selection.
Each player registers their interest and is assigned a number based on when they register, to be kept on a google spreadsheet document on the web. While this is taking place, x number of teams are chosen and names for said teams are thought of.
After an amount of time, a date is chosen and on that date, the numbers 1-y (y being the total amount of people registered) are randomly sequenced by http://www.random.org. Assuming there are 10 teams, the first person who registers will be on team 1, and the second on team 2...you get the point. This way, the only player difference assigned to teams will be one.
The tournaments are run as one big tournament every week and players score 1 point for winning. All players finishing positions count as then the lobby can tell the organiser who finished where.
The team members can choose captains if they wish, and lowest point scorers in individual teams win individual prizes.
Players who register after the league starts will be assigned to teams randomly based on all the teams who are one short.
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I"m sure no ill will was intended by Brendan as both points of view are on the money. It"s important that we get this right so we very much appreciate that you both care enough to comment so passionately.
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If teams regularly only get 4 or 5 players, then that is clearly unsustainable in any event. For example, Stockton could become part of the "North East Poker Club" which would include Sunderland. Organisers could look at this at the end of each season to decide if battle lines need to be re-drawn.
I really hope this was said massively tongue in cheek. Im sure Al and his team would hate to lose their Sunderland team name and for us, basically a pub team of mates who after proudly winning promotion into Div 1 and staying there to be then merged into a "North East Poker club" would be a joke... I mean haway.. you"ll be saying merge Newcastle as well into it next... lol.... a Stockton / Sunderland / Newcastle team.. just picking myself off the floor laughing. And I"m sure you"d get the same reaction from other smaller clubs joining local rivals.
Agree with Brendan again it really is time to take notice that the current scoring / team system is not working. Just look at the current league table for Div 1 there"s 11 teams. 6 of those 11 teams have 1 point or less after 10 weeks? Does that sound like everything is working perfectly to you?
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If teams regularly only get 4 or 5 players, then that is clearly unsustainable in any event. For example, Stockton could become part of the "North East Poker Club" which would include Sunderland. Organisers could look at this at the end of each season to decide if battle lines need to be re-drawn.
lol geddddoooouttahere! Cant go dismantling teams of APAT regulars really can you? Stockton are overacheiving if anything.
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If there is some sort of "National League Live" event, will the West Midlands have to have just one hole card instead of two as a Handicap for being successful ??
Are Wales gonna be stopped from playing the live team events because they keep winning ?
Oh.....as an aside, we have lost a lot of our regular players this season due to the problems early in the season with 888 and their running of tournaments.
It is always going to be a problem for teams at the lower end of a league to keep interest and numbers up and nothing you can do or say will change that.
If APAT think the Online League isn"t working then scrap it, because if you have a North-East team, a North-West team et-al, the same will apply in that the lower teams wont get many runners if they have no chance at the season"s-end.
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I can assure you I am wide awake!
Touchy? If your gonna get upset when your points are challenged maybe tucked up in bed is the best place for you, or maybe you could step out of your defensive position and open your mind sufficiently so as to understand the intended context for those two words in my post.
The League in its current format had plenty of players in week one. You have put forward your view for the decline to the latest event and I put forward mine.
Your view being...
"in my view the reason for the decline in numbers this year is because the league has been (this season) less than well-run. Much of this has been out of our control with a couple of software failures, date changes, lack of notice of new times, players unsure of what site the games would be played on and now a different start time."
Yet we had various members post their concern about the League format HERE (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=7345.0) prior to these recent hiccups.
You have arrogantly assumed yours is correct and dismissed mine.
Lighten up ffs, its an opinion on a card game not world peace. Fwiw you give freely of your opinion as do I. Our opinions differ and I have tried to make a reasoned counter to your position, seems pretty standard and reasonable debate to me but if there's any particular words that caused you offence I'll happily revisit.
In my view the larger teams should have some advantage over the smaller teams. If a team captain or team members work hard to recruit new members to their team, they deserve some reward for it. This season a method was put in place to only give points to the top 4 scorers from each team. Perhaps that could be tweaked further, but I don't think it's far out.
So far you have opined on what you don't want to happen, what tweaks would you like to bring to table?
If teams regularly only get 4 or 5 players, then that is clearly unsustainable in any event.
Wow we agree on something ;D. The team size point is more about being inclusive and thus sustainable. I have acknowledged the very valid point previously, some Team Captains have played a storming recruitment game but the Captains efforts is not the only variable in success or failure in recruiting players indeed a hugely successful recruiter would likely fail miserably when fishing in a lesser stocked pool (metaphor alert: this is not about Angling).
With the competitive teamsize bar currently set at 20 plus we lessen our chances of growing the numbers. Lowering the bar will make a competitive team attainable in more areas. Lets not be blinded defending current positions of strenght over striving for a genuinely competitive and vibrant League. What will be more satisfying, effortless domination of an ever declining League or stretching yourselves to the last day in a super competive League.
Not saying my proposal delivers that but imho changes are needed and I put it forward only as a starting point.
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Scrap the online team league. Or seriously revamp it. There"s been more back biting sniping nasty ill thought out divisive and often incorrect remarks made about this one event than anything else. Certainly that"s how it felt to me as a Walsall player. Just not good for APAT and god knows what any new players must have thought about it all. Merging the Birmingham team into the Walsall team was an own goal (initially I thought it was a joke), and I half thought it was done to shut up the constant moaning of the Birmingham players about Walsall. It"s kinda ironic that most of WM"s points appear to be coming from the Birmingham side of late! And the merger just gave more "super team" ammunition to the rest.
I stopped playing the league a while ago. It"s just not what I joined APAT for.
I don"t see how you can make a league work as well at the end as at the beginning. As soon as a few teams are stuck at the bottom they will struggle to maintain their numbers. Happens in all the leagues I"ve ever played in, even in leagues that are made up of individual players never mind teams. Perhaps if the league was very short, say 4 or 6 weeks a time so that lots are still in with a chance at the end, it might just work.
If they do go on, I think more thought has to be given to how to ensure "added value" is distributed fairly amongst all participants in a winning team. If you"re in a winning team you should win something, but the current arrangement only rewards a few. I"m therefore not a fan of the current seat prizes, although APAT could rule that any winnings from seats get distributed e.g. 50% to the seat player and 50% to the rest of the team in relation to points gained. Another option would be just to have a prize pool awarded to the winning team in relation to points. It wouldn"t be hard to manage?
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There are 11 teams in Div 1 - therefore each team makes up 9% of the league table. In the first three weeks of this current league season, West Mids had 23/216 entrants = 11% of the field, 16/161 = 10%, and 13/148 = 9%. Therefore, I make the point that we were not overly heavy or large - we had the average team size. There were other teams larger than WM.
Over time, player volume has dropped away (including WM), and WM player ratio has increased to between 15%-18%. This doesn"t mean the league has failed - it just means people are dropping out.
Consider that APAT National events do not sell out with the gusto that they did in S2/S3.... that means people have dropped out of the mix.... by the same token, does that mean the APAT Nationals are therefore failing? Of course not.
With respect to the league, if all 216 players who played the first round had stuck around, WM would still only be playing with the average player ratio, and the league table might look different. The fact is that people lost interest after round 1 - that doesn"t necessarily mean the league concept is bad or wrong.... just that people lost interest.
imo you will never be able to sustain the interest of so many people over a 20 week cycle. Some will get bored, some will just forget about it, some will lose interest when they aren"t top of the league, etc etc etc. Drastically shorten the lifecycle of the league with a view to keeping it more "current", and we will have far more chance of sustaining interest throughout. Failing that, scrap it, and add the value seats to more Online Nationals.
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imho it dosent matter how many players you have in a team, Solent have done very well with less than 10 players and are sitting pretty with West Midlands. My team Notts are struggling and its hard to recruit players. As i live in Derby, Derby people dont want to play for Notts along with, surrounding citys like Leicester, Lincoln, Mansfield or Chesterfield etc, our captain Jack Prime is from Leicester and probably has the same problem getting players. I personally think that next season Notts should change to East Midlands poker club and then watch the numbers turn up lol, West midlands have done it so why cant us :D What do you think East Midlanders?
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Seeing as the league needs an overhaul, and bunch of 5"s was so successful...why not make Sunday nights more individual competition. Different format every sunday over a 5-6 week period, and a leaderboard with overall points. Prizes for top of the leaderboard at the end of each cycle. I think this would be a great way of getting interest back in, and due to changing formats, is likely to retain interest throughout the weeks. $11 would also still make for a decent prize-pool, and the competitive element would still be there.
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Seeing as the league needs an overhaul, and bunch of 5"s was so successful...why not make Sunday nights more individual competition. Different format every sunday over a 5-6 week period, and a leaderboard with overall points. Prizes for top of the leaderboard at the end of each cycle. I think this would be a great way of getting interest back in, and due to changing formats, is likely to retain interest throughout the weeks. $11 would also still make for a decent prize-pool, and the competitive element would still be there.
Absolutely this ^^
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Think team events still the way forward. To be honest the league would have been really competitive this year if birmingham / Walsall had stayed separate. The only way to balance it out again next year is to either split west mids back up or have other teams merge.
Only other option would be to change fromat , i have said before about having nominated players ( say the top 7/8 from each team only allowed to score team points) all players allowed to play though and if do well get promoted into point scoring players , therefore this will encourage to play to keep in the team and if not in team to play and get into team, ie 1 win should put you in .
just a bit more admin for team captains to post nominated scoring players before tourney starts.
This would also eliminate a lot of soft play between team mates because you would also be playin against team mates in your own standings to keep in the team !
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There are 11 teams in Div 1 - therefore each team makes up 9% of the league table. In the first three weeks of this current league season, West Mids had 23/216 entrants = 11% of the field, 16/161 = 10%, and 13/148 = 9%. Therefore, I make the point that we were not overly heavy or large - we had the average team size. There were other teams larger than WM.
I wouldn"t bother Steve. I pointed out last season (with the numbers to prove it) that despite all the whining about Walsall we didn"t actually have this huge team that people were claiming. This year it"s because the team became West Midlands (despite the fact people from either team could quite easily have joined together in one team anyway). They could change it back to Walsall and Birmingham, we could all join Birmingham and they"d still complain. I reckon we just change the name to BCPC, REALLY wind them up! :)
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What is wrong with?
W Mids
E Mids
N West
N East
Ireland
S and S West
London and S East
East
Wales
Scotland
10 teams, one division. Gives each of those 10 teams a good crack at equal-ish numbers
Either 3 six week leagues or one big league
Team and Individual added value
I know you"d lose some team identity, but at least the smaller teams get put into groupings that have a chance....
(not an official view, nor a formal proposal, just throwing it out there)
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What is wrong with?
W Mids
E Mids
N West
N East
Ireland
S and S West
London and S East
East
Wales
Scotland
10 teams, one division. Gives each of those 10 teams a good crack at equal-ish numbers
Either 3 six week leagues or one big league
Team and Individual added value
I know you"d lose some team identity, but at least the smaller teams get put into groupings that have a chance....
(not an official view, nor a formal proposal, just throwing it out there)
Works for me, and I"m impressed that you even managed to post the end of season league table there, before concept even accepted and league started - nice one!
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You keep interest in a league by making each month have some kind of prize.
Relating that to a team tournament -
If you had a 9 month league for example
Each month the individual winner gets entry into an end of season Team Championships qualifier
The Team Championships qualifier has a prize fund so that everybody wins some added money
The individual who wins this sit and go is the captain for their team - who have now just won entry into the team championships.
This would provide a financial incentive (but not too much for the sponsor to get scared of), if an individual wins more than one month then the prize pool gets shared out between less people at the end, and if a team wins more than one month they have an extra chance of winning the final stt for their team to get a place in the team championships
It would need some finessing, but this could keep interest up enough to stop such a dramatic fallaway in numbers.
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What is wrong with?
W Mids
E Mids
N West
N East
Ireland
S and S West
London and S East
East
Wales
Scotland
10 teams, one division. Gives each of those 10 teams a good crack at equal-ish numbers
Either 3 six week leagues or one big league
Team and Individual added value
I know you"d lose some team identity, but at least the smaller teams get put into groupings that have a chance....
(not an official view, nor a formal proposal, just throwing it out there)
Lose team identity with a Scottish Team :o Not a chance! we"d be even more proud to play ;D
Sounds like a good suggestion Rich, even though the Glasgow team is currently going strongly. This is thanks mainly to a great recruitment drive from Capt Gerry (and NB just as importantly other team members), and good momentum running up to and following the Scottish APAT with it"s Glasgow venue. Our mini APAT Glasgow team event at the weekend (also attended by members from other APAT teams) was a great way to keep this momentum going and we"re already in early stages of planning our next get together.
In saying that, I remember the days when the Glasgow team was much smaller and there was a feeling of "letting the team down" when I missed the online games (too regularly as I work 5 weekends in each 8 week rota) and I fear this may also be the case now with the smaller teams. Why not make the teams bigger then to level the playing field out a bit? It"ll never be a perfect ratio, whichever way it"s organised but the current scenario of comparing teams like Glasgow and Dundee show"s a huge gulf in points probability regardless of any team members" individual abilities.
Agree it would be a great idea to examine the individual AV for the league also, therefore negating any drop off from people who may be performing and scoring without much contribution from their team to the league points.
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What is wrong with?
W Mids
E Mids
N West
N East
Ireland
S and S West
London and S East
East
Wales
Scotland
10 teams, one division. Gives each of those 10 teams a good crack at equal-ish numbers
Either 3 six week leagues or one big league
Team and Individual added value
I know you"d lose some team identity, but at least the smaller teams get put into groupings that have a chance....
(not an official view, nor a formal proposal, just throwing it out there)
sounds good , think 3 six weeks league would work best with maybe end of season champion of champion play off maybe ??
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Posting from phone so gonna be quick!
How about upping the cost to 10 + 2. The extra dollar goes towards an end of season prizepool where individuals have starting stacks linked to their own points.
I think in general there should be shorter leagues and an "Ironman" type freeroll for those that play 80% or something.
In essence I believe more of an individual element is needed. By all means keep the team side of it but shifting some of the value from teams to individuals may keep numbers up a bit better.
And as someone said, any prizes won from the seats given out - a portion is shared pro-rata with your teams points scorers.
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Again, just thinking out loud
3 six week leagues
At the end of Each Six week league
- the winning team wins a spot in the UK Team Championships that season
- The top player (irrespective of team) wins (UKIPT seat) (GUKPT seat) whatever added value is part of season 6
- The top x players win UK APAT National entries
- Top 25 finishing positions are scored for individuals in each of the six weeks, and all teams accrue points on a weekly basis
After three leagues three teams have qualified for the team championships
The top scoring team of those three in the team event then gets a play off where all those who have played events in their team are eligible, the winner within that team wins a (UKIPT seat)
Anyway, you get a measure of what can be done here to keep things competitive, address imbalances etc etc
Des and I need to discuss, clearly
A season 6 schedule is drafted, meetings are taking place imminently and Online national league will be part of those discussions
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Again, just thinking out loud
3 six week leagues
At the end of Each Six week league
- the winning team wins a spot in the UK Team Championships that season
- The top player (irrespective of team) wins (UKIPT seat) (GUKPT seat) whatever added value is part of season 6
- The top x players win UK APAT National entries
- Top 25 finishing positions are scored for individuals in each of the six weeks, and all teams accrue points on a weekly basis
After three leagues three teams have qualified for the team championships
The top scoring team of those three in the team event then gets a play off where all those who have played events in their team are eligible, the winner within that team wins a (UKIPT seat)
Anyway, you get a measure of what can be done here to keep things competitive, address imbalances etc etc
Des and I need to discuss, clearly
A season 6 schedule is drafted, meetings are taking place imminently and Online national league will be part of those discussions
er.... hmmmm.... yeah that"ll do it!! When can we start please????
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Personally a lower buy in Maybe 5.00 plus 1.00 as a fund might be better , as has been mentioned earlier, for a lot of players 10.00 dollars ?? every time soon adds up, but whatever happens I will still be playing !!
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I think that the scoring system has to be changed in order to keep a decent level of competition, I also like the idea of limiting team numbers.
I would like to see the league run along the same lines as the Team Champs-
Teams limited to 10,12, 15 etc players
Top 20,30,40 etc finishers score pts which will be added to your teams total.
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Think scoring system has improved the league, ie teams with less players more of a chance of scoring points with a win.
Like the capped players idea but not capped players to play , i think as many players in team but only the top x amount of players to score points nominated before game starts. So players will fight to get in their own teams top x. also with the individual prizes should still encourage all playrs to play
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anything that caps the number of players that can enter/contribute, would be against the APAT ethos, and detrimental to the over-riding requirement to attract new players.
I prefer the idea of leaving volume wide open, but running with an individual programme inside the team programme - that ensures that players from even the smallest teams, or teams that have no chance of winning after first few rounds, still have a reason to play.
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I may be wrong here but isn"t the current scoring system a case of - If a player finishes in 1st place in a league match his team could still end up scoring 0 pts. If this is the case then imo this has to change, but as I say I may not be up to date with the current scoring system.
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Tightys region team idea has a lot going for it, and I would have two seasons within one season if you know what I mean, of 8 games each, then people who lose interest due to lack of chance of winning will have another go in a few weeks time.
For me, I will play whenever I can anyway, because you can"t get as good a game anywhere for $10 ! So just play for the fun, and chill out guys!!
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anything that caps the number of players that can enter/contribute, would be against the APAT ethos, and detrimental to the over-riding requirement to attract new players.
defo disagree with this , it would not stop players joining in etc cos the top players would change prob every week and would encourage competition within the team aswell as playing as a team.
It does not cap the players that can enter . and the contirbutions would be there after 1 result (they would be in top of their team) all this would stop is team with higher volume of players would not have an advantage.
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I may be wrong here but isn"t the current scoring system a case of - If a player finishes in 1st place in a league match his team could still end up scoring 0 pts. If this is the case then imo this has to change, but as I say I may not be up to date with the current scoring system.
Yes a player can come first and score no points for team , but under current scoring system it is far less likely . Its 25 points for win then 22 20 etc . it used to be 9 , 8 ,7 ,6 etc
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What is wrong with?
W Mids
E Mids
N West
N East
Ireland
S and S West
London and S East
East
Wales
Scotland
10 teams, one division. Gives each of those 10 teams a good crack at equal-ish numbers
Either 3 six week leagues or one big league
Team and Individual added value
I know you"d lose some team identity, but at least the smaller teams get put into groupings that have a chance....
(not an official view, nor a formal proposal, just throwing it out there)
This works for me, providing I can play for Scotland ;D
3 six week leagues is better than 1 big league IMO. As others have said it helps regenerate interest at the start of each league.
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Again, just thinking out loud
3 six week leagues
At the end of Each Six week league
- the winning team wins a spot in the UK Team Championships that season
- The top player (irrespective of team) wins (UKIPT seat) (GUKPT seat) whatever added value is part of season 6
- The top x players win UK APAT National entries
- Top 25 finishing positions are scored for individuals in each of the six weeks, and all teams accrue points on a weekly basis
After three leagues three teams have qualified for the team championships
The top scoring team of those three in the team event then gets a play off where all those who have played events in their team are eligible, the winner within that team wins a (UKIPT seat)
Anyway, you get a measure of what can be done here to keep things competitive, address imbalances etc etc
Des and I need to discuss, clearly
A season 6 schedule is drafted, meetings are taking place imminently and Online national league will be part of those discussions
This looks great.
The playoff idea could be a bit unfair however if one player has played all the events and done well has an equal chance as the player who played once and didn"t score. Maybe different staring stacks (if software allows). or top point scorer in the team wins the seat and winnings are split in proportion to points. ???
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Just in case any potential S6 sponsor is on the iPoker Network, this may be of interest - http://t.co/U0eIr3E3
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Scouse...dont mention "Champion Of Champions"...apparantly, it isn"t needed.
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Leader Board- I think more emphasis is needed on the overall leader board (online and live). It would be good to see it on the front page showing who is top, by how many points, etc etc. The UKIPT do this very well with the leader board pride of place on their front page.
I agree - and please keep it up to date. We all know that there is a lot of work involved in organising and running the tournaments, a substantial amount of which is never seen, so I can never understand why the simplest five-minute job of updating the leaderboard to finish off the event usually gets left undone for weeks. Why not just do it on the day? And saying you don"t know who has finished where in online games is incredible - can"t someone be delegated to watch the game and record the result?
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that"s a bit harsh
For the live events the ranking positions are sent to the compiler the day after the event are are almost always updated in the rankings on the same week
There was a dislocation with the DTD WCOAP Online as it coincided to the day with Leigh's departure and the need to record the results fell through the cracks. Once we then obtained the results from DTD we had to work out who was represented by which DTD alias, a process that is ongoing.
Not exactly representative of systematic laxness in updating the rankings....
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imho it dosent matter how many players you have in a team, Solent have done very well with less than 10 players and are sitting pretty with West Midlands. My team Notts are struggling and its hard to recruit players. As i live in Derby, Derby people dont want to play for Notts along with, surrounding citys like Leicester, Lincoln, Mansfield or Chesterfield etc, our captain Jack Prime is from Leicester and probably has the same problem getting players. I personally think that next season Notts should change to East Midlands poker club and then watch the numbers turn up lol, West midlands have done it so why cant us :D What do you think East Midlanders?
I hope i havent created a monster here lol
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Scouse...dont mention "Champion Of Champions"...apparantly, it isn"t needed.
An annual CoC; where scheduled at the start of a season, perhaps has relevance. One based on the last five years doesn"t. If you want to find the most successful player during that time, then I would look at APAT cashes on the Hendon Mob database.
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An annual CoC; where scheduled at the start of a season, perhaps has relevance. One based on the last five years doesn"t. If you want to find the most successful player during that time, then I would look at APAT cashes on the Hendon Mob database.
http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/386
Joint 7th wohoo!
p.s. not sure if this is open to debate but is there any possible movement from a Saturday night to a Sunday for the online National events? I havent been able to play one this season with it being on a Saturday :( but I"m sure theres equally the same argument for people who prefer it on a Saturday over a Sunday. Just chucking it into the "consideration hat" x
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Leader Board- I think more emphasis is needed on the overall leader board (online and live). It would be good to see it on the front page showing who is top, by how many points, etc etc. The UKIPT do this very well with the leader board pride of place on their front page.
I agree - and please keep it up to date. We all know that there is a lot of work involved in organising and running the tournaments, a substantial amount of which is never seen, so I can never understand why the simplest five-minute job of updating the leaderboard to finish off the event usually gets left undone for weeks. Why not just do it on the day? And saying you don"t know who has finished where in online games is incredible - can"t someone be delegated to watch the game and record the result?
The updating bit is the easy bit, its just then what you do with the rankings to actually make them mean something. It would be great to have some kind of added value for player of the season ie. x number of buyins for next season - sponsorship allowing. Saying that though, I am not sure the added value is particularly important. APAT has a strong community and a lot of regular players. A leader board that was made more prominant would be cool just for brag purposes.
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An annual CoC; where scheduled at the start of a season, perhaps has relevance. One based on the last five years doesn"t. If you want to find the most successful player during that time, then I would look at APAT cashes on the Hendon Mob database.
http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/386
Joint 7th wohoo!
p.s. not sure if this is open to debate but is there any possible movement from a Saturday night to a Sunday for the online National events? I havent been able to play one this season with it being on a Saturday :( but I"m sure theres equally the same argument for people who prefer it on a Saturday over a Sunday. Just chucking it into the "consideration hat" x
nooo please don"t do that.... I wouldn"t be able to play Sundays, for the same reason that I don"t play the Sunday majors. Monday morning start is way too early for a late Sunday night ;)
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nooo please don"t do that.... I wouldn"t be able to play Sundays, for the same reason that I don"t play the Sunday majors. Monday morning start is way too early for a late Sunday night ;)
But a late night would involve running deep Steve??? confused ;) :-* x
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that"s a bit harsh
For the live events the ranking positions are sent to the compiler the day after the event are are almost always updated in the rankings on the same week
There was a dislocation with the DTD WCOAP Online as it coincided to the day with Leigh's departure and the need to record the results fell through the cracks. Once we then obtained the results from DTD we had to work out who was represented by which DTD alias, a process that is ongoing.
Not exactly representative of systematic laxness in updating the rankings....
agree with rich here there has been a few probs with rankings and can understand national ranking with DTD/888 probs with names etc.
1 thing which is prob a bit bad without sounding harsh is the national poker league div 1 never had individual standings up . Although many thanks to gerry for doing an individual speadsheet .
And i would volunteer to have a go of keeping it upto date either this year or next. (I know its hard to keep on top of it but i have a lot of time on my hands now) !
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An annual CoC; where scheduled at the start of a season, perhaps has relevance. One based on the last five years doesn"t. If you want to find the most successful player during that time, then I would look at APAT cashes on the Hendon Mob database.
http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/386
Joint 7th wohoo!
Nice one phil but but unsure why all APAT events have not been included on database in the rankings , they on there as APAT events. The pro events are not included on rankings , or the home nations team event. (world team event has been ). The other team events aint even on databse whatsoever ? Well 2 i cashed in anyway ?
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nooo please don"t do that.... I wouldn"t be able to play Sundays, for the same reason that I don"t play the Sunday majors. Monday morning start is way too early for a late Sunday night ;)
But a late night would involve running deep Steve??? confused ;) :-* x
Just going on most recent form - runner up in the last one :) (brag opportunity claimed!)
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Nice one phil but but unsure why all APAT events have not been included on database in the rankings , they on there as APAT events. The pro events are not included on rankings , or the home nations team event. (world team event has been ). The other team events aint even on databse whatsoever ? Well 2 i cashed in anyway ?
As far as I understood it, if theres live medals up for grabs its an "official" ranking APAT event, which might rule out the pro events? but the team events I"m sure should be? Im sure Des / Tighty can confirm. Maybe the Hendon Mob people just need a nudge.
Just going on most recent form - runner up in the last one :) (brag opportunity claimed!)
Knew that was coming ;D
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So a Champion Of Champions event is relevant in the PCA for all there winners, and at the GUKPT, but not good enough for APAT ?
OK then....I just thought it was a great idea, but once it has been put down at the highest levels, I am pretty sure it wont be included anyway.
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So a Champion Of Champions event is relevant in the PCA for all there winners, and at the GUKPT, but not good enough for APAT ?
OK then....I just thought it was a great idea, but once it has been put down at the highest levels, I am pretty sure it wont be included anyway.
It"s a question of resource, priorities and strategy
Resource: Because each live event costs money to put on
Priorities: Because we have masses of new ideas
Strategy: Because it is neither inclusive or helps develop the growth of the tour/APAT
Give us a blank chequebook and a clear diary and I"ll arrange everything
Until then, its a case of choosing the best amongst a number of competitng options
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Nice one phil but but unsure why all APAT events have not been included on database in the rankings , they on there as APAT events. The pro events are not included on rankings , or the home nations team event. (world team event has been ). The other team events aint even on databse whatsoever ? Well 2 i cashed in anyway ?
As far as I understood it, if theres live medals up for grabs its an "official" ranking APAT event, which might rule out the pro events? but the team events I"m sure should be? Im sure Des / Tighty can confirm. Maybe the Hendon Mob people just need a nudge.
Don"t think this is the case Phil as there were medals in the pro events but they are not counted as Apat Cashes in the data base. Ps Just read about your accident, get well soon mate.
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Don"t think this is the case Phil as there were medals in the pro events but they are not counted as Apat Cashes in the data base. Ps Just read about your accident, get well soon mate.
Well if there were medals for the pro events then I officially have no clue what constitutes an official flagged APAT event within the Hendon Mob then which is then included in the "cashes" database. One for Tighty and Des to clarify.
And cheers Don.. stupid game football, just want to be 100% for Vegas so I can fly.. the team event, beer mixed with pain killers might produce some random play.. be fun though ;D
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Simple, all event results are provided to THM
All are included in the database, all should be in the cashes list
If they aren"t, write to them and get whichever you want included.
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Don"t think this is the case Phil as there were medals in the pro events but they are not counted as Apat Cashes in the data base. Ps Just read about your accident, get well soon mate.
Well if there were medals for the pro events then I officially have no clue what constitutes an official flagged APAT event within the Hendon Mob then which is then included in the "cashes" database. One for Tighty and Des to clarify.
And cheers Don.. stupid game football, just want to be 100% for Vegas so I can fly.. the team event, beer mixed with pain killers might produce some random play.. be fun though ;D
hopefully it might propel you to win the thing!
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Should just be "open" events in the rankings imo - but you can filter that down on THM anyway if they list it right.
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that"s a bit harsh
For the live events the ranking positions are sent to the compiler the day after the event are are almost always updated in the rankings on the same week
There was a dislocation with the DTD WCOAP Online as it coincided to the day with Leigh's departure and the need to record the results fell through the cracks. Once we then obtained the results from DTD we had to work out who was represented by which DTD alias, a process that is ongoing.
Not exactly representative of systematic laxness in updating the rankings....
If it was just this time, I would not have posted - it"s almost every time. I"m not looking to provoke a debate - just hoping for an improvement.
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beer mixed with pain killers might produce some random play.. be fun though ;D
Do APAT allow performance enhancing drugs? ;)
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that"s a bit harsh
For the live events the ranking positions are sent to the compiler the day after the event are are almost always updated in the rankings on the same week
There was a dislocation with the DTD WCOAP Online as it coincided to the day with Leigh's departure and the need to record the results fell through the cracks. Once we then obtained the results from DTD we had to work out who was represented by which DTD alias, a process that is ongoing.
Not exactly representative of systematic laxness in updating the rankings....
If it was just this time, I would not have posted - it"s almost every time. I"m not looking to provoke a debate - just hoping for an improvement.
In the past there"s been a long wait for online sites to provide results and the start of the season can cause problems.
But the 2 online events before the Worlds, the rankings were updated 1 day after the event and 2 days after the event - so I don"t really see a problem - obviously going forward it would be handy to replicate the system we had from before the Worlds to avoid any future problem.
In terms of the original point made - it is a bit incongruous that there"s so little emphasis placed on the leader board, what is the winner even called for example? They have been referred to as the rankings winner in the past - but maybe more emphasis on the "Player of the Season" might be better perhaps.
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Ok here we go, just read all the pages so far, probably missed a few ideas so might be going over some that have already been said: -
Online League
I liked the breakdown that Rich did with 10 teams, possible to increase the teams to maybe 15 and the have an on line league of whatever format (probably 1 game every 6 weeks) and the top 10 in the league gaining entry into a team event (150 players) with maybe the added value (depending on sponsorship) being the top team gain free entry into the tournament, and top player in each team getting a free entry to an apat comp. Players with smaller base player base may qualify automatically due to numbers, teams with a larger base will have more competition for players. Any team who has players who cannot attend then go down the list.. Team Captains to sort out their own scoring or apat.
Live Games
Worlds to stay at DTD (personal cannot make it due to work, but Venue is superb, and APAT deserves to be having its premier event at DTD.
Other Games.
Stay at £75 Entry Worlds at £100 or even more maybe, having a few on line qualifiers for them
There are a few things that I feel have changed APAT over the last few seasons. Its growing in size or going overseas has been great ambition and fun for those who want the holiday or can afford it, but detrimental to the core uk amateur player and has possibly taken away an event from them, or pushed apat away from them..
Bank Holiday Weekends: (this is more personal probably) but I do feel that demand for games may be lost due to this. Worlds has to be on that weekend, but It seems (I might be wrong) that most games are on these weekends.
Schedule: No flow to what is going on at APAT. I used to know exactly what was on, but with even more means of communications, I feel like I know less (or maybe there is so much more its hard to keep on top of) what is going on.
Venues: The Nationals should stay (Wales(Swansea, Cardiff), Ireland(Dublin if av), Scotland(Wherever not been to any events), England (Luton) this amounts to 4 events, where travel is going to be an issue for some players, but so be it. These should be spaced out with another APAT tournament in between.
Eg. I"m using an assumption that the new season may start around Feb/March 2012.. And any national at any date, there are so many things that have to change because of venue availability, but its a basic idea..
Mar - Wales
Apr - Newcastle (North East)
May - English (South)
June - Yorkshire (North)
July - Scottish (Scotland Obv ::))
Aug - WORLDS (Midlands)
Sept - Brighton (South)
Oct - Coventry (Midlands)
Nov - Blackpool (North West - Online League Comp Team Event) or Coventry for central for each team. (or make it last game of Season which gives time to sort out the following season)
Dec?? or Jan - Irish
This schedule leaves out many possible venues, and also games which would need to be fitted in possibly.
European Game (or APAT Holiday ;D)
Venues Not mentioned but could be substituted (the ones I can think of, I"m sure there are more: Bolton, Liverpool, Sheffield, London, etc.
The one thing I would say is please don"t rush into any season. The demand is there to fill every event I"m sure if APAT goes back to basics..
Sorry for the long (possibly boring post), time is limited for me at the moment, so get it all out in one go.. Now I can breath ;D ;D
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There doesnt seem to be too much support for the live video feed so I would just like to say....I LOVE IT!!
I know costs etc need to be taken into consideration but I can honestly say that when it is on, I am watching it from start to finish.
Tighty and Leighs witty remarks are obviously the main attraction but just watching it makes you feel like you are there (though gutted not to be).
What I would like to suggest is... that if live feed should continue. Could we maybe have more APAT players who have been busted commentating on live feed? Not only would it take a bit of pressure off the updating team but would also give a bit of insight into how other players think!
Personally I have loved this in the past. I was glued to the screen when Mark was updating in Coventry...the lad was born to do it and knows his stuff. Similarly with James E and some welsh bloke ;)
I really think if some of the "better" players got involved and maybe gave just 20/30 mins it would make viewing more interesting and educational.
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Live
Everything has already been said, Stay at £75/£100, Stay at DTD for worlds (but will clash with the Goliath) can the date be changed? Does it have to be on a bank holiday? If I remember right, the first time we was there, the 2 day ones was on the Friday and Saturday which both sold out. No dinner break (to finish earlier on the Saturday) Venues (go to who will have us) it would be good to spread the venues around the country but we have to go with who will cater for is in terms of dates and capacity. Would be good to have the team event (or any event) in the centre of the country in terms of transport (Leeds/Sheffield) Pro-am not bothered either way with this but if you keep it, should be in London. Same with overseas, as long as it does not take away from UK based games then have as many as you want.
Online League
This seems to be were the biggest change as to be. As it is its not working (just look at the fall in numbers and the arguments it has coursed). I suggested a county league in the season 5 discussion thread and I see it has been brought up in this year's thread, for me this is the way forward. How the league would work is up for discussion (1/2 leagues, length, points, prizes etc)
Online
I don't know how successful this has been as I have not played them but I would like to suggest that we scrap the $50 game. APAT is all about the AMATURE player and $50 is above most people's buy-in range for an online game (thinking of new players to the game). How about an individual league? $5/$10 buy-in, 1 game every 2 weeks (does not have to be on a Sunday) can be mixed games NLH/PLO/6 SEAT/ STUD etc but most games would have to be NLH as this is what most people play. 1 big prize (WSOP package/ EPT package) to keep the interest going have a playoff, top 30 play for say 5 prizes UKIPT/DTD £300 and so on). The prizes are dependent on what sponsorship we have, and I'm not talking about $10,000 WSOP but a $1500/$2000 game with travel. Will expand on this if any interest is shown
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Ok Firstly... There"s Gonna be a season 6 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Now that"s out of my system a few points to hopefully enhance a great product.
- It sounds like scheduling is well under way but please take on board Alan"s earlier comments that in 2011 if you wanted to pay £75 for a Regular APAT National in the UK there is no individual event for you post the World"s in August (Sep - Ireland, Oct - Team Event, Nov - Vegas, Dec - ProAm, Jan - Czech Rep). A big chunk of the year with none of the core APAT product IMO
- In a similar vein (and I know you can"t always control this) plenty of notice for the first National of the season. I missed Coventry this year for this reason and I know a few missed Swansea last year for the same
- I agree with Phil about Sundays for the National onlines, sorry Steve. If it can be done and the sponsors are happy, then I would suggest a simple voting thread on Saturday vs. Sunday
- I love European events. Very personal biased view and completely get the counter argument but for me 2 p.a. is ideal
- Worlds @ DTD over August Bank Holiday. It"s established. It works. It"s the Dogs! Keep it.
- I think I am stating the obvious and the powers that be are already on this but most would like more standard UK Nationals than we have had this year
- Online League. It"s great that so many care so much to envoke such debate but a shame that it"s had a greater share of voice than anything else as I"ve heard a few say "if it doesn"t work get rid of it" yet we would not say that about the APAT Nationals. Should it be put onto a separate thread?
FWIW by points on the debate
- Shortened seasons may work but 3 x 6 weeks is too short imho. Is there a way of splitting the leagues mid-season so that those in the bottom half have something to play for and keep the interest going- a sort of Cup / Plate concept?
- Not sure about the Super Regional Idea - If you are in Liverpool or London or Dingwall then it"s obvious who to play for but for some it"s less obvious. Eg I am from Northampton, is that East, East Mids or South East. You could also be breaking up established groups
Thank You APAT & Keep it Up!
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Here is my tuppence worth :
Live
- Countries & Venues ~ It seems to me that the more central the venue the quicker it sells (Aberdeen and Cork sold especially slowly). APAT is under competition from many similar good tourneys these days and sticking to more central venues would be a wise move. I don"t think Yorkshire has ever held an APAT and Leeds (ALEA esp.) & Sheffield have some nice rooms.
European venues just don"t seem worth it for a £75 comp TBH, but a little mini-festival might make it worthwhile. Somewhere with sunshine --> Spain at Easter/Whit would suit me, why go to Spain in Jan ???.
- Structure ~ It has been tweaked and tweaked and is as good as you can get for a two day event now. Would like to see the games start earlier on both days if venue can accomodate, I know there are dealer issues on this but other tours manage it. This would allow for Saturday to play to the money and more chance to enjoy local establishments before closing time, also allows for people to get home earlier on the Sunday night.
- Buy in ~ I personally would prefer slightly higher, but agree current £75/£100/£50 is democratic choice.
- Pay structure~ This years adopted structure is way better.
- Added value ~ Whatever you can get is good, but reg free must stay number one priority for everyone to benefit.
- Trophies / medals ~ Please keep these, they are a great talking point beforehand and for the cost must be a very effective promotion tool.
- Rules ~ APAT's early years had this as a clear focus so lets get back to setting standards. I would like to see the rules on showdown/betting out of turn/verbal "raise" or "raise to" clarified, sorry to all you laid back players this is just the nit in me.
- WCOAP ~ DTD everytime as all have said. The STUD event only sold half the seats and it would be good to put a more popular event on the Thursday (say 6 max) or maybe put in a PLO8 or 8 game tourney.
- Streaming ~ Much better to watch if you can get that RDIF table that shows hole cards, although this would kick up a fuss over fairness. If an expense has to go, then sadly this is probably near the top.
- Live updates ~ The At a Glance page was great.
- Post event reports ~ Fine
- Photo galleries ~ Fine, altough would like to see one gallery that links pics to names.
- Team events ~ I enjoy the social side of these, and think they suit several short MTTs or STTs rather than a single MTT where people can be out early and not really involved for the rest of the w/end. Also I have a suggestion for one to back the online series (see online section below)
- Side events ~ Never played one, but they seem popular. Is there room for a 9pm one on the Saturday to get more varieties in the schedule ??
- Formats, ie reentry, rebuys, etc~ There is a place for these, but not in oversold APAT events aimed at amateur players.
- Guarantees ~ Not really needed imo
- Schedule, ie is one event a month right, etc ~ maybe too many in this increasingly competitive buy-in range.
Online
- Sponsors, one / multiple ~ I am happy with many if it means better deals, but I would imagine many dont want to be downloading and depositing into many different sites. So one big sole sponsor is probably best ~ Genting are going great in the UK live scene and would be good sponsor in the current climate.
- Online Championship ~ Fine, but Sundays are Poker night.....get them moved, everyone gives up so many Saturday nights already with the live games.
- Online side events ~ Fine, although would prefer a variety of games rater than PLO everytime.
- Online national league~ OK lets get started : DITCH the UNFAIR NUMBER DEPENDENT LEAGUE FORMAT ! This format loses way more members than it brings in.
Genting have run a few live team events that have followed an online league. They were in teams of 4 or 6 and the points you got in the league then were used to create your starting stack at the live event. This would mean APATers would create there own team bringing in new players to the APAT fold and nearly everyone would stay the distance as every event would be important towards your live starting stack.
- Online buy ins ~ $10 or $5 is probably best to attract the most. If a team format as suggested was to be taken onboard then there would need to be some thought over funding the live game prize pool. Say $5+2, with the $2 going towards the live final pool.
Bloody hell, that took the whole of the second half of the rugby...time to stop...kids are starting "we"re bored"
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Somewhere with sunshine --> Spain at Easter/Whit would suit me, why go to Spain in Jan ???.
spain in january was bloody lovely actually!
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Somewhere with sunshine --> Spain at Easter/Whit would suit me, why go to Spain in Jan ???.
spain in january was bloody lovely actually!
Yep - No crowds and lovely weather.....
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Plenty of discussion, plenty of ideas to chew over
When will the new seasons schedule be published please?
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Somewhere with sunshine --> Spain at Easter/Whit would suit me, why go to Spain in Jan ???.
spain in january was bloody lovely actually!
Yep - No crowds and lovely weather.....
Somewhere with sunshine --> Spain at Easter/Whit would suit me, why go to Spain in Jan ???.
spain in january was bloody lovely actually!
I withdraw my suggestion in the face of the opinions above from APATs beach bodied sun gods. January it is.
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- I agree with Phil about Sundays for the National onlines, sorry Steve. If it can be done and the sponsors are happy, then I would suggest a simple voting thread on Saturday vs. Sunday
- Online Championship ~ Fine, but Sundays are Poker night.....get them moved, everyone gives up so many Saturday nights already with the live games.
Bumping.. anyone want to give Sundays for the online nationals some love? :-*
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I withdraw my suggestion in the face of the opinions above from APATs beach bodied sun gods. January it is.
this made me lol :) nh!
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Plenty of discussion, plenty of ideas to chew over
When will the new seasons schedule be published please?
Earlier than the equivalent time last year!
Discussions in progress now, so on course for that
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- I agree with Phil about Sundays for the National onlines, sorry Steve. If it can be done and the sponsors are happy, then I would suggest a simple voting thread on Saturday vs. Sunday
- Online Championship ~ Fine, but Sundays are Poker night.....get them moved, everyone gives up so many Saturday nights already with the live games.
Bumping.. anyone want to give Sundays for the online nationals some love? :-*
As part of the Amateur tour, most of us work for a living - Monday is a pretty critical day of the working week, therefore playing poker til 2am on a Sunday night isn"t practical. Sunday morning"s are for recovering from late Saturday night poker sessions.
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I think Sundays better for the nationals , Some of us like to go out on a saturday night and have a social life lol !
And at the end of the day i would put money on the majority of players playing sunday night for all big tournies , and if you playing late normally means a bit of cash to soften the blow to have a tired Monday !
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As part of the Amateur tour, most of us work for a living - Monday is a pretty critical day of the working week, therefore playing poker til 2am on a Sunday night isn"t practical. Sunday morning"s are for recovering from late Saturday night poker sessions.
Yes but as most of us work for a living, Saturday Night is pretty important night off whether it be with family, wives / husbands / partners etc. It may be a marmite debate but let"s have it.
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As part of the Amateur tour, most of us work for a living - Monday is a pretty critical day of the working week, therefore playing poker til 2am on a Sunday night isn"t practical. Sunday morning"s are for recovering from late Saturday night poker sessions.
Yes but as most of us work for a living, Saturday Night is pretty important night off whether it be with family, wives / husbands / partners etc. It may be a marmite debate but let"s have it.
so that a vote for sundays ?
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- I agree with Phil about Sundays for the National onlines, sorry Steve. If it can be done and the sponsors are happy, then I would suggest a simple voting thread on Saturday vs. Sunday
What d"you think (Scouse) Steve ;)
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Would be happy to go with the majority if it went to vote.....
However, for consideration, yes playing Saturday"s take a social opportunity away for some (but for me, poker, even online, is part of the social calendar).... Most people who want to play the Nationals will play them on Saturdays..... BUT, some people who want to play will not be able to play them on Sunday nights due to Monday morning work stuff.
I"m already having to drop out of some of the Sunday league games - will be gutted if I have to miss the Nationals as well.... but that"s just my situation.
Would make for an interesting vote.
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I vote for Sundays. Sundays FTW
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I vote for Sundays. Sundays FTW
Isn"t Sunday a day of rest for you?
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p.s. I vote for Saturday as I have no social life anyway. :-[
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Would be happy to go with the majority if it went to vote.....
However, for consideration, yes playing Saturday"s take a social opportunity away for some (but for me, poker, even online, is part of the social calendar).... Most people who want to play the Nationals will play them on Saturdays..... BUT, some people who want to play will not be able to play them on Sunday nights due to Monday morning work stuff.
I"m already having to drop out of some of the Sunday league games - will be gutted if I have to miss the Nationals as well.... but that"s just my situation.
Would make for an interesting vote.
I think if you took a lot of "new" people to poker - most of them would work Mondays - and if they had the option of trying the online APAT Nationals as a "new" thing they"d get as far as finding out it"ll finish at about 2am on Monday morning - then they"d dismiss the idea and not even bother trying.
Some people might end up having Sunday night as poker night, with the Sunday majors or anything smaller and just putting up with the occasional knackered Monday but most players don"t start off like that*.
I think it"d limit growth to have online Nationals on Sundays.
*complete degens and people who don"t care about their jobs might have obviously :D
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I vote for Sundays. Sundays FTW
Isn"t Sunday a day of rest for you?
Indeed my enlightened one. In fact I can"t think of a better way to relax on a Sunday after 6 days of hard work than to play an APAT online national. Saturdays family and social time. Sundays pokers time. Hath always been this way.
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I vote for Sundays. Sundays FTW
Isn"t Sunday a day of rest for you?
Indeed my enlightened one. In fact I can"t think of a better way to relax on a Sunday after 6 days of hard work than to play an APAT online national. Saturdays family and social time. Sundays pokers time. Hath always been this way.
if I give you a list by PM, could you do some smiting for me please, so that they are smote?
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I vote for Sundays. Sundays FTW
Isn"t Sunday a day of rest for you?
Indeed my enlightened one. In fact I can"t think of a better way to relax on a Sunday after 6 days of hard work than to play an APAT online national. Saturdays family and social time. Sundays pokers time. Hath always been this way.
if I give you a list by PM, could you do some smiting for me please, so that they are smote?
;D Like...
So long as I"m not on the list ;)
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I vote for Sundays. Sundays FTW
Isn"t Sunday a day of rest for you?
Indeed my enlightened one. In fact I can"t think of a better way to relax on a Sunday after 6 days of hard work than to play an APAT online national. Saturdays family and social time. Sundays pokers time. Hath always been this way.
if I give you a list by PM, could you do some smiting for me please, so that they are smote?
(http://212.113.204.91/images/smiting.jpg)
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I vote for Sundays. Sundays FTW
Isn"t Sunday a day of rest for you?
Indeed my enlightened one. In fact I can"t think of a better way to relax on a Sunday after 6 days of hard work than to play an APAT online national. Saturdays family and social time. Sundays pokers time. Hath always been this way.
if I give you a list by PM, could you do some smiting for me please, so that they are smote?
(http://212.113.204.91/images/smiting.jpg)
PMSL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Plenty of discussion, plenty of ideas to chew over
When will the new seasons schedule be published please?
Earlier than the equivalent time last year!
Discussions in progress now, so on course for that
Thanks
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The National Online Championships - do they all have to be on one day? Could there not be some on Saturdays and some on Sundays if they are the two days that the members prefer? What about Friday nights? Most perople have a late night on Friday anyway...........
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I would stick with Sundays, and have the Nationals on a Sunday with no league game. Saturdays are for having a (away from poker) life!
I"m near the top of the rankings at the moment (blatant brag!), and can"t play any of the final live events, so I really ought to play the final two online events. But I might still miss them if some wedding or something comes up. That wouldn"t happen if they were on a Sunday. Sundays are for doing nothing (except maybe some poker or, in my sad case, marking).
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OK I will put my tuppence in here.
Live Events
The Nationals are fine as they are. The £75 buyin works and should not change. £100 for the worlds is also fine, as is £50 for the side events. I would like to see the following National events:-
Worlds (at DTD)
Wales (Asper"s in Swansea)
Scotland (has to be there, although I may not go)
Dublin
London
2 other UK events not too bothered where.
One overseas event (Tallin?)
For live team events we just need the Forum Championship and the Team event at DTD.
Not too bothered about side events as I usually don"t play them.
Online Events
Friday would be best for me, I don"t usually do much on Friday but tend to like to do stuff on Saturdays. Buyin"s are fine. Like the PLO events as side events too.
League
Some teams are too small, lets have one division with less teams. Prizes are too big imo just give some seats to apat live event"s. Should not be things like UKIPT seats and medals for an online league.
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Sundays are for doing nothing (except maybe some poker or, in my sad case, marking smiting).
+1 and FYP
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I wouldn"t be able to play Sundays......... Monday morning start is way too early for a late Sunday night ;)
Is this why you don"t make day 2s anymore steve ;D
PS - can"t believe it took me a week to come up with that gag!!
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Just my thoughts for Season 6.
First of all i"d like to thank all of the APAT team for yet another years stirling work. I cant imagine how much work must go into organising this. Well done all. Leigh will be sorely missed.
There was no prize for winning the rankings for this season, so there is no incentive for players to travel to distant venues to play.
Online and Live events should be separate for rankings, as there is a significant edge to the online players (eg not having to travel).
The online league still needs tweaking. Just 1 division would be good, but there must be some way to balance numbers, as 2 or 3 teams are fielding 30+ players, and giving the other teams (who just cannot get the numbers), no chance, and therefore less incentive to play.
Overseas events: Why do we have to go to "new frontiers" and get new APAT players?? What is the purpose of this? I"m sure that everyone to went to Barcelona in January would want to go back there. Prague in January? No thanks.
I understand that Season 5 could never live up to the package that Betfair gave to Season 4, but this year has just not felt right.
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Just my thoughts for Season 6.
First of all i"d like to thank all of the APAT team for yet another years stirling work. I cant imagine how much work must go into organising this. Well done all. Leigh will be sorely missed.
There was no prize for winning the rankings for this season, so there is no incentive for players to travel to distant venues to play.
Online and Live events should be separate for rankings, as there is a significant edge to the online players (eg not having to travel).
The online league still needs tweaking. Just 1 division would be good, but there must be some way to balance numbers, as 2 or 3 teams are fielding 30+ players, and giving the other teams (who just cannot get the numbers), no chance, and therefore less incentive to play.
Overseas events: Why do we have to go to "new frontiers" and get new APAT players?? What is the purpose of this? I"m sure that everyone to went to Barcelona in January would want to go back there. Prague in January? No thanks.
I understand that Season 5 could never live up to the package that Betfair gave to Season 4, but this year has just not felt right.
+1. Agree with all of this.
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Where to start ey!
First and foremost, a huge thankyou to APAT for providing another top value poker tour where the prizes for the amateur players are very rewarding: tweaked prize structure = spot on. added seats = opportunity to play in potentially unaffordable events and gain experience in bigger events. medals = for me personally, hugely satisfying to look back on and remind urself of the win.
all these things within the tour make APAT what it is IMO. then throw in the camaraderie at national event weekends and it truly is an unique poker event that you just do not see elsewhere.
Now here comes the big question for APAT - what is the actual aim as a company/organisation?
If its motivation is to grow and make a run at becoming a global brand, then branching out of the UK is essential. the events I"ve been to "abroad" have been a blast and getting away for a weekend anywhere for nothing but poker is essentially my idea of a "holiday". However, for me personally, travelling across Europe to play poker jus isnt really on my agenda due to costs, although i would love to do it.
The point im trying to make is that i don"t see the abroad events as a poker wkend, but a holiday wiv an APAT tournament thrown in. Thats essentially wot the "Vegas APAT" is and truth be told, always was. Its not an APAT event in Vegas, its a week in Vegas for those who can afford it wiv the bonus of a APAT poker tournament whilst you"re there.
Reading through this thread it would appear that the majority are against continuing having multiple (if any) events abroad and as a community of players then APAT need to seriously consider this to provide a tour that has attracted many players and to keep it that way.
The problem comes if APAT, and those at the top of its tree, want to make the brand bigger. I believe this will move it away from the current ethos of APAT by locating some of the events abroad and risk losing hardcore members from down the years. but if this is APATs desire and quite frankly wiv its progression since Ive been a member, they are more than capable of turning it into a much bigger project that in currently is.
if its goals are to continue to provide an accessible and affordable poker tour that offers such great value like from my opening paragraph then keep it in the UK, simples.
What are your ultimate ambitions wiv APAT, Des and Tighty?
I think that will do from me for now :P
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Just to revisit ( Dog with a bone, I know ;D)
Would it help the online league if we........
Set up and play 2 rounds per scheduled date. I assume most players could play two tables simultaineously, this would shorten the season duration, reduce the scheduling burden and maybe help retain player interest.
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Just to revisit ( Dog with a bone, I know ;D)
Would it help the online league if we........
Set up and play 2 rounds per scheduled date. I assume most players could play two tables simultaineously, this would shorten the season duration, reduce the scheduling burden and maybe help retain player interest.
That would create a new opportunity..... bonus points for anyone that final tables both tourneys on same night.
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I would like the APAT Online events moved to a Sunday.....yet another one going to be missed this Saturday due to other commitments.
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I would like the APAT Online events moved to a Sunday.....yet another one going to be missed this Saturday due to other commitments.
I would like them moved to days when I have nothing planned please. :)
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I would like the APAT Online events moved to a Sunday.....yet another one going to be missed this Saturday due to other commitments.
Thumbs up
(http://c0033672.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2d7a463c-768c-46b0-b339-4af1682cf15d.jpg)
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I would like the APAT Online events moved to a Sunday.....yet another one going to be missed this Saturday due to other commitments.
Thumbs up
(http://c0033672.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2d7a463c-768c-46b0-b339-4af1682cf15d.jpg)
Isn"t Sunday supposed to be a day of rest God?
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Isn"t Sunday supposed to be a day of rest God?
And on the 7th day there was rest. And poker.
If poker was not rest maybe you should not take ones time limiteth to fold each hand.
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Isn"t Sunday supposed to be a day of rest God?
And on the 7th day there was rest. And poker.
If poker was not rest maybe you should not take ones time limiteth to fold each hand.
ROFL
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I havent been able to play one online game that has been on a Saturday, So any change would be welcome
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I Love God ;D
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I Love God ;D
(http://atticyouth.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/1abuddy_funny_jesus_thumbs_up-1.jpg?w=393&h=342)
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If the online games are moved to Sunday, I just hope they start earlier than 8pm......
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and it came to pass that God said verily unto Des and Tighty
" Early starts on Sunday or Dan Owston takes over as TD at all events for season 6"
And so began the early start for Sunday league games........Amen
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Isn"t Sunday supposed to be a day of rest God?
And on the 7th day there was rest. And poker.
If poker was not rest maybe you should not take ones time limiteth to fold each hand.
Thanks for clearing things up God. I"ll try and be quicker in future.
PS - Looking forward to your sons birthday.
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and it came to pass that God said verily unto Des and Tighty
" Early starts on Sunday or Dan Owston takes over as TD at all events for season 6"
And so began the early start for Sunday league games........Amen
Oh, i dunno. Dan as TD would certainly make for some interesting events!
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For season 6 can we ensure that bars frequented DO NOT run out of alcohol!!!!!
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For season 6 can we ensure that bars frequented DO NOT run out of alcohol!!!!!
And how do you suggest we do that, ban Scouse, Dan Owston and The Duke? ;)
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For season 6 can we ensure that bars frequented DO NOT run out of alcohol!!!!!
And how do you suggest we do that, ban Scouse, Dan Owston and The Duke? ;)
OK fair point :-\
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IMO The live tour should have balance geographically. Also i think it would be good to have the team events spread throughout the year.
My proposed schedule is as follows:-
Feb Coventry English
Mar Cardiff Welsh
Apr Luton Pub
May Newcastle UK
Jun Dublin/Cork Irish
Jul Manchester Open
Aug Notts World
Sept Brighton/Abroad European
Oct Glasgow Scottish
Nov Leeds Forum/Team
Most people would have an event that they go get to every 2/3 months this way.
September is a good month to travel abroad as it"s cheap and still warm in alot of countries. If abroad is a no go then Brighton helps balance the tour geographically.
The online events i think should be on a Sunday at 7pm. The online league to run for 16 weeks on a 2 weeks on/off basis.
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For season 6 can we ensure that bars frequented DO NOT run out of alcohol!!!!!
And how do you suggest we do that, ban Scouse, Dan Owston and The Duke? ;)
To be fair Scouse wasn"t able to be responsible for the DTD scenario :D
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OK so I"m way behind here, but FWIW I have a few limited opinions:
LOCATION
European Tourneys - Germany has a mega market to plumb into, but laws effectively ban cash prizes. Their turnieres advertise hardware as prizes, but obviously on the day you get cash equivalent. The juice on their competitions is astronomical. I don"t know if Berlin is any different to the rest of the country though...but my point is that there is HUGE potential to be tapped into there - and it will only get bigger as Pius Heinz leads the WSOP ME.
Holland is another location, though local regulations prevent use of Holland Casinos by 3rd parties. TBH they"re all a bit small anyway.
Belgium appears to be a market Pokerstars are working massively on opening up. TBH alot of their casino"s have been a bit slow in take up and in the past they have had slightly odd tournament structures - but I"m guessing as they get dragged into the mainstream this is changing.
My point is that its easy to cross borders in the EU - and many players do every night of the week. Go to Belgium/Holland and their casino"s are rammed with German players. I believe that Belgium is a very worthy candidate for investigation - as not only can you pull in the locals - but its also very easy to get the Dutch and (more importantly?) the Germans and French. Spa for one is very easy to get to for all 3 nationalities and absolutely gorgeous. Oh and Belgian beer is the best in the world bar none ;-)
SITE
I"ve found it difficult getting over for APAT from abroad for the last few years - but the one big turn off for me keeping involved online has been the choice of sponsor/software provider.
On 2 or 3 occasions I have looked at the sponsor and immediately thought uh-uh. Not playing there - as everyone knows which sites crash, have poor software, provide poor service etc. I"m sure there are plenty more players out there that think the same.
Stars was never ever going to be surpassed - and that season was an amazing experience for the online tourneys and the value added. Are they ever an option for going back to (even on a lesser deal)?
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How about trying this for the new season LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsnfdD6_Kso&feature=player_embedded ;D
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How about trying this for the new season LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsnfdD6_Kso&feature=player_embedded ;D
Christ there are a few I hope will take it down and not lose any clothing...i include myself in that list..
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New Genting poker club opening in Sheffield next year would be nice to play there. Especially if it"s the team event as defending title in home city would be epic!!!!
Also Spain would be good for euro.
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It"s such an obvious point I can"t believe it hasn"t already been raised, but can we ensure all Venues on the Live Circuit for S6 have PAI GOW!!!!!
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It"s such an obvious point I can"t believe it hasn"t already been raised, but can we ensure all Venues on the Live Circuit for S6 have PAI GOW!!!!!
+1
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oh and vegas please
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All side events should be PAI GOW. I"m sure there"s a tournament structure that can be adapted to suit!
Hmmmm, come to think of it.. Probably not a good idea! Too many players will start to lose in the main event on purpose!!
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It"s such an obvious point I can"t believe it hasn"t already been raised, but can we ensure all Venues on the Live Circuit for S6 have PAI GOW!!!!!
+1
+100000
also Stu can"t play as he"s a Pai Gow pro and the second highest VIP ranking on Pai Gow Stars (c)
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It"s such an obvious point I can"t believe it hasn"t already been raised, but can we ensure all Venues on the Live Circuit for S6 have PAI GOW!!!!!
+1
+100000
also Stu can"t play as he"s a Pai Gow pro and the second highest VIP ranking on Pai Gow Stars (c)
As a member of PAIPAT you are also inelligable i am afraid Derrick.
Shallis is fine tho as he is sh! t at it.
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So we are basically saying this could happen.
Events in Luton, Manchester, Nottingham, Coventry etc etc....
The "Pai Gow Amateur Poker Association & Tour" will be known as:
P GAP AT Luton
P GAP AT Manchester
P GAP AT Nottingham
P GAP AT Coventry
etc etc.......
;D
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Question for Des:
You teased us in recent posts that the announcement for Season 6 might be significantly earlier than previous years.
Are you in a position to state approximately when the announcement regarding Season 6 may be broadcast?
>>>>Braces self for several "soon" replies :)
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A Des announcement is like any principle, law, tenet, probability, happening, circumstance, or result and can in no way be directly, indirectly, empirically, or circuitously proven, derived, implied, inferred, induced, deducted, estimated, or scientifically guessed, it will always for the purpose of convenience, expediency, political advantage, material gain, or personal comfort, or any combination of the above, or none of the above, be unilaterally and unequivocally assumed, proclaimed, and adhered to as absolute truth to be undeniably, universally, immutably, and infinitely so, until such time as it becomes advantageous to assume otherwise, therefore SOON.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I"d like it to be earlier than last year but while we have a proposed schedule on the table, we haven"t finalised partnership discussions yet. Needless to say, we"re talking to some interesting people though.... ;)
Ger gets it btw. Priceless.
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A Des announcement is like any principle, law, tenet, probability, happening, circumstance, or result and can in no way be directly, indirectly, empirically, or circuitously proven, derived, implied, inferred, induced, deducted, estimated, or scientifically guessed, it will always for the purpose of convenience, expediency, political advantage, material gain, or personal comfort, or any combination of the above, or none of the above, be unilaterally and unequivocally assumed, proclaimed, and adhered to as absolute truth to be undeniably, universally, immutably, and infinitely so, until such time as it becomes advantageous to assume otherwise, therefore SOON.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ger, one of these days I will understand your posts ;D
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A Des announcement is like any principle, law, tenet, probability, happening, circumstance, or result and can in no way be directly, indirectly, empirically, or circuitously proven, derived, implied, inferred, induced, deducted, estimated, or scientifically guessed, it will always for the purpose of convenience, expediency, political advantage, material gain, or personal comfort, or any combination of the above, or none of the above, be unilaterally and unequivocally assumed, proclaimed, and adhered to as absolute truth to be undeniably, universally, immutably, and infinitely so, until such time as it becomes advantageous to assume otherwise, therefore SOON.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Love that!
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IMO The live tour should have balance geographically. Also i think it would be good to have the team events spread throughout the year.
My proposed schedule is as follows:-
Feb Coventry English
Mar Cardiff Welsh
Apr Luton Pub
May Newcastle UK
Jun Dublin/Cork Irish
Jul Manchester Open
Aug Notts World
Sept Brighton/Abroad European
Oct Glasgow Scottish
Nov Leeds Forum/Team
Most people would have an event that they go get to every 2/3 months this way.
September is a good month to travel abroad as it"s cheap and still warm in alot of countries. If abroad is a no go then Brighton helps balance the tour geographically.
The online events i think should be on a Sunday at 7pm. The online league to run for 16 weeks on a 2 weeks on/off basis.
=1
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A Des announcement is like any principle, law, tenet, probability, happening, circumstance, or result and can in no way be directly, indirectly, empirically, or circuitously proven, derived, implied, inferred, induced, deducted, estimated, or scientifically guessed, it will always for the purpose of convenience, expediency, political advantage, material gain, or personal comfort, or any combination of the above, or none of the above, be unilaterally and unequivocally assumed, proclaimed, and adhered to as absolute truth to be undeniably, universally, immutably, and infinitely so, until such time as it becomes advantageous to assume otherwise, therefore SOON.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ger, one of these days I will understand your posts ;D
scarily, i understood this more than i do most of your posts in the APAT acadamy :p
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A Des announcement is like any principle, law, tenet, probability, happening, circumstance, or result and can in no way be directly, indirectly, empirically, or circuitously proven, derived, implied, inferred, induced, deducted, estimated, or scientifically guessed, it will always for the purpose of convenience, expediency, political advantage, material gain, or personal comfort, or any combination of the above, or none of the above, be unilaterally and unequivocally assumed, proclaimed, and adhered to as absolute truth to be undeniably, universally, immutably, and infinitely so, until such time as it becomes advantageous to assume otherwise, therefore SOON.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ger, one of these days I will understand your posts ;D
scarily, i understood this more than i do most of your posts in the APAT acadamy :p
Understand it or not , which i do .
Ger is just a leg end !
that is all
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A Des announcement is like any principle, law, tenet, probability, happening, circumstance, or result and can in no way be directly, indirectly, empirically, or circuitously proven, derived, implied, inferred, induced, deducted, estimated, or scientifically guessed, it will always for the purpose of convenience, expediency, political advantage, material gain, or personal comfort, or any combination of the above, or none of the above, be unilaterally and unequivocally assumed, proclaimed, and adhered to as absolute truth to be undeniably, universally, immutably, and infinitely so, until such time as it becomes advantageous to assume otherwise, therefore SOON.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ger, one of these days I will understand your posts ;D
scarily, i understood this more than i do most of your posts in the APAT acadamy :p
:D yeah shove or fold, this time he"s gone a bit Stephen Fry with this explanation. Fantastic Ger ;D
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dont know if anyone has mentioned this but you could add a "high roller" event for WCOAP like a £300 buyin
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dont know if anyone has mentioned this but you could add a "high roller" event for WCOAP like a £300 buyin
Now that is one of the better suggestions I think I have come across.
Great idea.
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dont know if anyone has mentioned this but you could add a "high roller" event for WCOAP like a £300 buyin
Now that is one of the better suggestions I think I have come across.
Great idea.
+1
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dont know if anyone has mentioned this but you could add a "high roller" event for WCOAP like a £300 buyin
Has been discussed with DTD.
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dont know if anyone has mentioned this but you could add a "high roller" event for WCOAP like a £300 buyin
Has been discussed with DTD.
Always 1 step ahead of us ;)
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dont know if anyone has mentioned this but you could add a "high roller" event for WCOAP like a £300 buyin
Has been discussed with DTD.
Always 1 step ahead of us ;)
not if we"re heading to the bar.
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Nice to finally meet Des & Tighty in Manchester, only my second APAT Live event after DTD Worlds. Enjoyed them both and look forward to attending more.
After just spending the last hour reading the whole thread there isn"t much left to add or contribute.
Somebody mentioned dropping the $10 entry to $5. Not for me, I find that with a buy-in as small as $5 too many players play with a "could not care attitude" and you see more stupid all-in calls or holding until the river suck outs.
I can"t remember how I came about playing APAT Online League but it is something I look forward to each Sunday. I think because of it my standard of play has improved and it is just unfortunate that the league format is struggling. The only thing I can think of to make the League more attractive or competitive is changing the points structure. Possibly keep the "Four from each team" scoring but award the positions to the top 20 in a different way..
Top heavy for winning....
30 Points for winner
25 points for runner-up
20 points for third
17 points for fourth then right down to
1 point for twentieth.
Then total the team points up and allocate points for all scoring teams, points scaled to how many teams score.
So if 6 teams score then points could be...
10 for winning team
7 for second
5 for third
4,3,2 for places.
This in my view can still give some encouragement to the teams at the bottom to climb the league. There is nothing more disheartening to be at the bottom, than being there with nil points...
On a gambling matter, will we be having the same promotion as last year for the Grand National as I would like to try to defend my title.. "Grand National Freeroll Winner 2011"
Only made a suggestion about the Online League as it is the one I enjoy playing the most, everything else is working fine in my view so keep it as it is...
Oh yes..Finally, I would not mind helping out in some small way to keep a record of weekly Individual Online League positions and keep others updated with regular rankings..
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Just a quick one re the league. Whatever you do, please leave the structure as it is, perfect for a Sunday night with work the next day.
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My only massive beef was the WCOAP Heads Up tourny this year.
Dont think u can have early rounds best of 1, with middleing starting stacks, then up it to longer matches later on, left no room for play.
Id rather see the early rounds be best of 3, BUT have a shorter starting stack so it doesnt take to long
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My only massive beef was the WCOAP Heads Up tourny this year.
Dont think u can have early rounds best of 1, with middleing starting stacks, then up it to longer matches later on, left no room for play.
Id rather see the early rounds be best of 3, BUT have a shorter starting stack so it doesnt take to long
^^ THIS. It"s often going to come down to a flip at some point - horrible to get an early cooler/flip and be out so quick.... at least best of 3 overcomes that (slightly). All rounds should be best of 3, with shallow stacks early on to keep the timings reasonable.
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My only massive beef was the WCOAP Heads Up tourny this year.
Dont think u can have early rounds best of 1, with middleing starting stacks, then up it to longer matches later on, left no room for play.
Id rather see the early rounds be best of 3, BUT have a shorter starting stack so it doesnt take to long
^^ THIS. It"s often going to come down to a flip at some point - horrible to get an early cooler/flip and be out so quick.... at least best of 3 overcomes that (slightly). All rounds should be best of 3, with shallow stacks early on to keep the timings reasonable.
Agree wholeheartedly.
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How shallow would you make starting stacks in those earlier rounds, if best of 3?
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How shallow would you make starting stacks in those earlier rounds, if best of 3?
With 10 minute blind levels, you could start with 30x - so 1500. After 20 minutes, using a steep structure, blinds would be 25/50, 50/100, 100/200 = 7.5x Avg stack. Each round is unlikely to go much beyond 20 minutes, meaning if a match lasts all three rounds, it should be done in an hour.
Deep and steep with best of three has got to be better than having something slightly deeper with one game only (imo). Unless you start 100x or more with a slower clock, it doesn"t really matter whether you are 10x or 50x - it"s all going in preflop so often. At least if it"s best of three, it"s not a case that the match is simply decided on the first flip.
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How shallow would you make starting stacks in those earlier rounds, if best of 3?
With 10 minute blind levels, you could start with 30x - so 1500. After 20 minutes, using a steep structure, blinds would be 25/50, 50/100, 100/200 = 7.5x Avg stack. Each round is unlikely to go much beyond 20 minutes, meaning if a match lasts all three rounds, it should be done in an hour.
Deep and steep with best of three has got to be better than having something slightly deeper with one game only (imo). Unless you start 100x or more with a slower clock, it doesn"t really matter whether you are 10x or 50x - it"s all going in preflop so often. At least if it"s best of three, it"s not a case that the match is simply decided on the first flip.
You mean shallow and steep?
This just makes it best of 3 coinflips IMO. I already decided if the structure of this tourney doesn"t change I won"t be playing it again and this doesn"t entice either. Against a random opponent there"s just no wriggle room, best of 3 or not. Some play has to be encouraged.
Tweaking the above to 15 min and 2K start, best of 3 would improve it though I"d rather see 3K.
Remember this is supposed to be a championship event. If the staff aren"t available to put on a championship event then I"d rather see it NOT on the schedule.
You could I suppose do a round or two of pre-qual online, and then progress to live rounds of say last 16 and beyond. This might help drive a better live structure whilst allowing a decent structure in the earlier round(s) albeit not F2F.
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And it wont be BO3 flips, a lot of weaker players will get it in hugely behind.... and u *should* hold 2/3 lol
it was annoying, to play for 10mins, get it in 75/25 get sucked out on and be out....waste of a day
10 min blinds, 2k stack is fine.....BO3
40bbs, 20bbs, 15bbs, 10bbs thats 30-40 mins a match (and a lot will go 2-0)
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Fancy having some kind of Charity APAT Event in Season 6? Even if we didn"t do a pot split for it, we could add a reg fee, and with 120+ runners that would be a nice amount for a worthy cause. Just a thought!
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And it wont be BO3 flips, a lot of weaker players will get it in hugely behind.... and u *should* hold 2/3 lol
it was annoying, to play for 10mins, get it in 75/25 get sucked out on and be out....waste of a day
10 min blinds, 2k stack is fine.....BO3
40bbs, 20bbs, 15bbs, 10bbs thats 30-40 mins a match (and a lot will go 2-0)
Defo agree with this. If it is this I"m in.
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- In a similar vein (and I know you can"t always control this) plenty of notice for the first National of the season. I missed Coventry this year for this reason and I know a few missed Swansea last year for the same
Any chance of a "save the date" post for the first national of S6? Doesn"t even have to be 100% certain IMHO.
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- In a similar vein (and I know you can"t always control this) plenty of notice for the first National of the season. I missed Coventry this year for this reason and I know a few missed Swansea last year for the same
[/quote]
Any chance of a "save the date" post for the first national of S6? Doesn"t even have to be 100% certain IMHO.
[/quote]
+1 PLEASE
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
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Thanks Des - That"s exactly what I was after and of course I appreciate that it"s all subject to change ;D
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
You could actually say that, that IS soon!!! ;)
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Just a thought on the HU Championship.
Would either of the following work.
1. Have the preliminary rounds (2 possibly), online, a month or so prior to the Worlds. This way the live event can have longer blinds and more chips or be best of 3 or even both. For people taking a day off just for this event it should represent as much value as we can give it.
2. The initial round be a round robin format of 4 players in a group with each player playing the other 3 in a league, with the winner progressing to the last 16 say. This way the "cooler" hand is mitigated to a fair degree and everyone gets 3 games and meets new people.
Just a thought. Happy New Year.
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Just a thought on the HU Championship.
Would either of the following work.
1. Have the preliminary rounds (2 possibly), online, a month or so prior to the Worlds. This way the live event can have longer blinds and more chips or be best of 3 or even both. For people taking a day off just for this event it should represent as much value as we can give it.
2. The initial round be a round robin format of 4 players in a group with each player playing the other 3 in a league, with the winner progressing to the last 16 say. This way the "cooler" hand is mitigated to a fair degree and everyone gets 3 games and meets new people.
Just a thought. Happy New Year.
2 great ideas here. This event definitely needs looking at because I have felt it hasn"t given players good "bang for their buck"
at the same time, running cost issues such as the number of dealers needed and the time factor have made this difficult to improve on.
rich"s ideas seem to be a good compromise, especially number 1
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Just a thought on the HU Championship.
Would either of the following work.
1. Have the preliminary rounds (2 possibly), online, a month or so prior to the Worlds. This way the live event can have longer blinds and more chips or be best of 3 or even both. For people taking a day off just for this event it should represent as much value as we can give it.
2. The initial round be a round robin format of 4 players in a group with each player playing the other 3 in a league, with the winner progressing to the last 16 say. This way the "cooler" hand is mitigated to a fair degree and everyone gets 3 games and meets new people.
Just a thought. Happy New Year.
I suggested (1) earlier in this thread. Like the sound of (2) too. Change is needed.
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Just a thought on the HU Championship.
Would either of the following work.
1. Have the preliminary rounds (2 possibly), online, a month or so prior to the Worlds. This way the live event can have longer blinds and more chips or be best of 3 or even both. For people taking a day off just for this event it should represent as much value as we can give it.
2. The initial round be a round robin format of 4 players in a group with each player playing the other 3 in a league, with the winner progressing to the last 16 say. This way the "cooler" hand is mitigated to a fair degree and everyone gets 3 games and meets new people.
Just a thought. Happy New Year.
I suggested (1) earlier in this thread. Like the sound of (2) too. Change is needed.
Sorry. I agree with Andy ;D
Rich, try and be more original ;)
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How shallow would you make starting stacks in those earlier rounds, if best of 3?
With 10 minute blind levels, you could start with 30x - so 1500. After 20 minutes, using a steep structure, blinds would be 25/50, 50/100, 100/200 = 7.5x Avg stack. Each round is unlikely to go much beyond 20 minutes, meaning if a match lasts all three rounds, it should be done in an hour.
Deep and steep with best of three has got to be better than having something slightly deeper with one game only (imo). Unless you start 100x or more with a slower clock, it doesn"t really matter whether you are 10x or 50x - it"s all going in preflop so often. At least if it"s best of three, it"s not a case that the match is simply decided on the first flip.
You mean shallow and steep?
This just makes it best of 3 coinflips IMO. I already decided if the structure of this tourney doesn"t change I won"t be playing it again and this doesn"t entice either. Against a random opponent there"s just no wriggle room, best of 3 or not. Some play has to be encouraged.
Tweaking the above to 15 min and 2K start, best of 3 would improve it though I"d rather see 3K.
Remember this is supposed to be a championship event. If the staff aren"t available to put on a championship event then I"d rather see it NOT on the schedule.
You could I suppose do a round or two of pre-qual online, and then progress to live rounds of say last 16 and beyond. This might help drive a better live structure whilst allowing a decent structure in the earlier round(s) albeit not F2F.
Apart from being exactly what I said, this bears no resemblance to my thoughts whatsoever. ;)
On this basis I really like thought 2.
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Just a thought on the HU Championship.
Would either of the following work.
1. Have the preliminary rounds (2 possibly), online, a month or so prior to the Worlds. This way the live event can have longer blinds and more chips or be best of 3 or even both. For people taking a day off just for this event it should represent as much value as we can give it.
2. The initial round be a round robin format of 4 players in a group with each player playing the other 3 in a league, with the winner progressing to the last 16 say. This way the "cooler" hand is mitigated to a fair degree and everyone gets 3 games and meets new people.
Just a thought. Happy New Year.
I suggested (1) earlier in this thread. Like the sound of (2) too. Change is needed.
Sorry. I agree with Andy ;D
Rich, try and be more original ;)
Oops. Didn"t mean to say anything other than I agree with Rich. Plus, he"s bigger than me :D
Rob, you are such a swinebag ;D
Looking forward to the announcments about Season 6; would love to be able to be much more involved this year. It"s all about those dates......
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Sorry Des but are you also able to tell us if we should look at booking long weekends off work? Are we likely to be heading off to Scotland or Ireland or will it be a pretty central UK event?
Understand you may not have this info yet but thought there is no harm in asking.
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Sorry Des but are you also able to tell us if we should look at booking long weekends off work? Are we likely to be heading off to Scotland or Ireland or will it be a pretty central UK event?
Understand you may not have this info yet but thought there is no harm in asking.
UK Event. Please understand that this is all subject to change, but thats the best indication at this stage
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I know that there is a perfectly good reason and that I am a complete twat for asking......BUT
Why don"t we just make Brighton the first leg of Season 6 as it"s 2012 and all that?
That way each season will be for a whole year. Simplez.
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I know that there is a perfectly good reason and that I am a complete twat for asking......BUT
Why don"t we just make Brighton the first leg of Season 6 as it"s 2012 and all that?
That way each season will be for a whole year. Simplez.
It"s probably got something to do with rankings and sponsors :)
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Sorry Des but are you also able to tell us if we should look at booking long weekends off work? Are we likely to be heading off to Scotland or Ireland or will it be a pretty central UK event?
Understand you may not have this info yet but thought there is no harm in asking.
UK Event. Please understand that this is all subject to change, but thats the best indication at this stage
So not ruling out Scotland then? ;D
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England
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England
North or South? ;)
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England
North or South? ;)
Depends on a number of factors, for each individual, such that it is a very difficult question to answer
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So the first event is ""likely"" to be 25/26 Feb?
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So the first event is ""likely"" to be 25/26 Feb?
It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st.
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So the first event is ""likely"" to be 25/26 Feb?
It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st.
England
Miss Scarlet, In the conservatory with the lead piping?
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If the first weekend of Season 6 is Feb 25/26th...can you make it the Timbuktoo event please as it clashes with the Birmingham Superstack ??
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If the first weekend of Season 6 is Feb 25/26th...can you make it the Timbuktoo event please as it clashes with the Birmingham Superstack ??
Someone needs to re-asses their priorities. ;D
Oh...and I see you got a Caps Lock key for Xmas. ;D
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If the first weekend of Season 6 is Feb 25/26th...can you make it the Timbuktoo event please as it clashes with the Birmingham Superstack ??
Can"t make it Tibuktoo, all the Southerners will complain that it"s too far away. :)
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If the first weekend of Season 6 is Feb 25/26th...can you make it the Timbuktoo event please as it clashes with the Birmingham Superstack ??
Can"t make it Tibuktoo, all the Southerners will complain that it"s too far away. :)
I"m sorry...I don"t understand...isn"t it closer for the Southerners? ;D
http://g.co/maps/2xjjy (http://g.co/maps/2xjjy)
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
are you also able to confirm what exactly the top 3 guys of team glasgow have won? ;) thanks much.
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
No we are not in a position to confirm that
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
are you also able to confirm what exactly the top 3 guys of team glasgow have won? ;) thanks much.
the relevant thread states
Division 2
The top three players of the winning team .... will be allocated an entry into the APAT European Amateur Championship to be held in Prague. (Seat and contribution to travel expenses, total package worth £250)
Obviously not Prague now, but the same would apply to an APAT event in Season 6, whether it be in the uk or overseas
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
are you also able to confirm what exactly the top 3 guys of team glasgow have won? ;) thanks much.
the relevant thread states
Division 2
The top three players of the winning team .... will be allocated an entry into the APAT European Amateur Championship to be held in Prague. (Seat and contribution to travel expenses, total package worth £250)
Obviously not Prague now, but the same would apply to an APAT event in Season 6, whether it be in the uk or overseas
so no you cant confirm it then? :D ;)
I did see that thread, just wondered if confirmed where.
guess it wont be til schedule is sorted i suppose. cheers
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
are you also able to confirm what exactly the top 3 guys of team glasgow have won? ;) thanks much.
the relevant thread states
Division 2
The top three players of the winning team .... will be allocated an entry into the APAT European Amateur Championship to be held in Prague. (Seat and contribution to travel expenses, total package worth £250)
Obviously not Prague now, but the same would apply to an APAT event in Season 6, whether it be in the uk or overseas
so no you cant confirm it then? :D ;)
I"ve just confirmed it. as the dates and events aren"t public yet, you can"t choose an event can you?
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
are you also able to confirm what exactly the top 3 guys of team glasgow have won? ;) thanks much.
the relevant thread states
Division 2
The top three players of the winning team .... will be allocated an entry into the APAT European Amateur Championship to be held in Prague. (Seat and contribution to travel expenses, total package worth £250)
Obviously not Prague now, but the same would apply to an APAT event in Season 6, whether it be in the uk or overseas
so no you cant confirm it then? :D ;)
I"ve just confirmed it. as the dates and events aren"t public yet, you can"t choose an event can you?
i was just having a little joke, i got what you meant ;)
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It"s ok, I reckon Glasgow to Plymouth plus tournament entry will cost you more than £250. We"ll insist on Plymouth.
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It"s ok, I reckon Glasgow to Plymouth plus tournament entry will cost you more than £250. We"ll insist on Plymouth.
lol you"re too kind.
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are you able to confirm Worlds would be weekend of 25th 26th Aug , as its the bank holiday weekend , as decent price for flights just now
are you also able to confirm what exactly the top 3 guys of team glasgow have won? ;) thanks much.
For the Div 2 prizes, we"d look to switch to a WCOAP passport to the value of £200 to £250, tbc when we finalise the WCOAP 2012 schedule.
from Des in November so will be announced at the same time I would imagine Paul
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Just a thought.. if its a £250 passport to world championship, it would be sweet for the 3 guys from team glasgow to be in the team event and the main event. (if the buy ins are still £100/£400) happy with anything of course. Just airing thoughts.
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APAT rankings - should they be proportional to the size of the field?
Is it right that the winner of the live WCOAP Main Event has to go through 400 players and gets 18 points, and the winner of an online NLH event has to go through say 60 players and gets 18 points as well?
This isn"t sour grapes on my part, quite the opposite - I benefited from this this year winning the World Online where the field from memory was only around 70 players.
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Very good point
I would like to put forward the the majors, carry more points than the online series
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Very good point
I would like to put forward the the majors, carry more points than the online series
not so much live over online but number of runners
there should be a sliding scale - say top 10% get points starting from 1 to whatever..
so 59 runner event like last night - top 6 get points, 1 for 6th up to 6 for winning
414 runner event like WCOAP - top 41 get points, 1 for 41st up to 41 for the bink.
I certainly have benefited from the points system this year, as did all the people in season 2 who won live regionals that got 10 runners
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Would prefer to see it back to seperate online rankings and live rankings. The two are very different and I was surprised when they were merged for this last season. Plus, not everybody plays both.
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though rankings are pointless if there isn"t any added value for the winner
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not so much live over online but number of runners
there should be a sliding scale - say top 10% get points starting from 1 to whatever..
so 59 runner event like last night - top 6 get points, 1 for 6th up to 6 for winning
414 runner event like WCOAP - top 41 get points, 1 for 41st up to 41 for the bink.
Love this. On the face of it, this could be a perfect solution.
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not so much live over online but number of runners
there should be a sliding scale - say top 10% get points starting from 1 to whatever..
so 59 runner event like last night - top 6 get points, 1 for 6th up to 6 for winning
414 runner event like WCOAP - top 41 get points, 1 for 41st up to 41 for the bink.
Love this. On the face of it, this could be a perfect solution.
The problem - in general, rather than specifically APAT - is that league numbers tend to decrease the further you progress through the season, significantly impacted by people stopping playing when they realise they have no chance of winning.
If the number of points were tied to the number of runners then this would lead to fewer and fewer points being available throughout the season and so this process would get accelerated.
In practice the demand for APAT seats is still high enough throughout the season for this not to cause such a large impact, but I don"t think you can take that for granted - I don"t think something should be introduced which could reduce the demand for APAT seats like this could.
But the live tournaments do have more runners than online, if the rankings continued as combined then this suggestion would rebalance the rankings a bit, and would do so in a way that would stimulate demand for the live tournaments rather than suppress it.
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Would prefer to see it back to seperate online rankings and live rankings. The two are very different and I was surprised when they were merged for this last season. Plus, not everybody plays both.
^^^ this
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I think that the rankings are due a revamp.
I would like to see a structure that takes into account the buyin, number of runners, whether it"s live or online.
The top 10% should earn ranking points, with a multiplier based on buyin (which would also take into account a differential between live and online)
$10 (Equivalent to Online League) = 0.5
$20 (Equivalent to Online Side Event) = 1
$50-$100 (Equivalent to Online Main Event or Live Side Event) = 1.5
$120+ (Equivalent to Live Main Event) = 2
Some examples :-
WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
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Would prefer to see it back to seperate online rankings and live rankings. The two are very different and I was surprised when they were merged for this last season. Plus, not everybody plays both.
^^^ this
+2... oh... and Sundays for online nationals x
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I think that the rankings are due a revamp.
I would like to see a structure that takes into account the buyin, number of runners, whether it"s live or online.
The top 10% should earn ranking points, with a multiplier based on buyin (which would also take into account a differential between live and online)
$10 (Equivalent to Online League) = 0.5
$20 (Equivalent to Online Side Event) = 1
$50-$100 (Equivalent to Online Main Event or Live Side Event) = 1.5
$120+ (Equivalent to Live Main Event) = 2
Some examples :-
WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
^^^ This scoring seems to make the online pretty irrelevant?
I"m not sure there"s much wrong with the scoring system that we have already - I just wouldn"t have merged online with live.
If we did split them again, I think we could perhaps offer 27 points places (27 for 1st etc) for WCOAP ME as a tweak but I wouldn"t change much else.
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+2... oh... and Sundays for online nationals x
this
Would prefer to see it back to seperate online rankings and live rankings. The two are very different and I was surprised when they were merged for this last season. Plus, not everybody plays both.
and this
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not so much live over online but number of runners
there should be a sliding scale - say top 10% get points starting from 1 to whatever..
so 59 runner event like last night - top 6 get points, 1 for 6th up to 6 for winning
414 runner event like WCOAP - top 41 get points, 1 for 41st up to 41 for the bink.
Love this. On the face of it, this could be a perfect solution.
The problem - in general, rather than specifically APAT - is that league numbers tend to decrease the further you progress through the season, significantly impacted by people stopping playing when they realise they have no chance of winning.
If the number of points were tied to the number of runners then this would lead to fewer and fewer points being available throughout the season and so this process would get accelerated.
In practice the demand for APAT seats is still high enough throughout the season for this not to cause such a large impact, but I don"t think you can take that for granted - I don"t think something should be introduced which could reduce the demand for APAT seats like this could.
But the live tournaments do have more runners than online, if the rankings continued as combined then this suggestion would rebalance the rankings a bit, and would do so in a way that would stimulate demand for the live tournaments rather than suppress it.
Sorry Jon, I"m not sure I agree with this. Even with 18 points for an online main event towards the end of this season there has only been 10-15 players in contention, so for the vast majority of players the number of ranking points on offer doesn"t govern whether they play or not.
A fairer ranking system - whether combined or splt - must surely take precedence.
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not so much live over online but number of runners
there should be a sliding scale - say top 10% get points starting from 1 to whatever..
so 59 runner event like last night - top 6 get points, 1 for 6th up to 6 for winning
414 runner event like WCOAP - top 41 get points, 1 for 41st up to 41 for the bink.
Love this. On the face of it, this could be a perfect solution.
The problem - in general, rather than specifically APAT - is that league numbers tend to decrease the further you progress through the season, significantly impacted by people stopping playing when they realise they have no chance of winning.
If the number of points were tied to the number of runners then this would lead to fewer and fewer points being available throughout the season and so this process would get accelerated.
In practice the demand for APAT seats is still high enough throughout the season for this not to cause such a large impact, but I don"t think you can take that for granted - I don"t think something should be introduced which could reduce the demand for APAT seats like this could.
But the live tournaments do have more runners than online, if the rankings continued as combined then this suggestion would rebalance the rankings a bit, and would do so in a way that would stimulate demand for the live tournaments rather than suppress it.
Sorry Jon, I"m not sure I agree with this. Even with 18 points for an online main event towards the end of this season there has only been 10-15 players in contention, so for the vast majority of players the number of ranking points on offer doesn"t govern whether they play or not.
A fairer ranking system - whether combined or splt - must surely take precedence.
like I said
... In practice the demand for APAT seats is still high enough throughout the season for this not to cause such a large impact
but I don"t think that this demand should be taken for granted
I think it"s also better for people to know in advance how many ranking points are available for an event before they enter it. If the number of ranking points were tied to the number of entries then this wouldn"t be the case.
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+2... oh... and Sundays for online nationals x
this
Would prefer to see it back to seperate online rankings and live rankings. The two are very different and I was surprised when they were merged for this last season. Plus, not everybody plays both.
and this
What they said.
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Sundays for online nationals x
this
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not so much live over online but number of runners
there should be a sliding scale - say top 10% get points starting from 1 to whatever..
so 59 runner event like last night - top 6 get points, 1 for 6th up to 6 for winning
414 runner event like WCOAP - top 41 get points, 1 for 41st up to 41 for the bink.
Love this. On the face of it, this could be a perfect solution.
The problem - in general, rather than specifically APAT - is that league numbers tend to decrease the further you progress through the season, significantly impacted by people stopping playing when they realise they have no chance of winning.
If the number of points were tied to the number of runners then this would lead to fewer and fewer points being available throughout the season and so this process would get accelerated.
In practice the demand for APAT seats is still high enough throughout the season for this not to cause such a large impact, but I don"t think you can take that for granted - I don"t think something should be introduced which could reduce the demand for APAT seats like this could.
But the live tournaments do have more runners than online, if the rankings continued as combined then this suggestion would rebalance the rankings a bit, and would do so in a way that would stimulate demand for the live tournaments rather than suppress it.
I wouldn"t advocate this approach for the online league - but it feels like it would be excellent for the seasonal rankings.
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I wouldn"t advocate this approach for the online league - but it feels like it would be excellent for the seasonal rankings.
My predictions for this for 2012 are
1. Summer
2. Spring
3. Autumn
4. Winter
x
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In season 1 I finished on the FT 5 times in 200+ runners, on line. I was beat in the rankings by someone who finished 2 times on the FT in live play.
Should be 2 separate leagues
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In season 1 I finished on the FT 5 times in 200+ runners, on line.
Blatant brag thread hijack! ;D
Should be 2 separate leagues
Disagree. Online and Live are just two different variants of poker. We don"t separate rankings leagues for NLHE, PLO, HORSE, Stud, etc... In my opinion, a single league can work really well, IF we are able to get the weightings right between the variants.
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I think that the rankings are due a revamp.
I would like to see a structure that takes into account the buyin, number of runners, whether it"s live or online.
The top 10% should earn ranking points, with a multiplier based on buyin (which would also take into account a differential between live and online)
$10 (Equivalent to Online League) = 0.5
$20 (Equivalent to Online Side Event) = 1
$50-$100 (Equivalent to Online Main Event or Live Side Event) = 1.5
$120+ (Equivalent to Live Main Event) = 2
Some examples :-
WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
^^^ This scoring seems to make the online pretty irrelevant?
I wouldn"t say it"s irrelevant, but simply reflects the fewer runners and cheaper buyins.
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I think that the rankings are due a revamp.
I would like to see a structure that takes into account the buyin, number of runners, whether it"s live or online.
The top 10% should earn ranking points, with a multiplier based on buyin (which would also take into account a differential between live and online)
$10 (Equivalent to Online League) = 0.5
$20 (Equivalent to Online Side Event) = 1
$50-$100 (Equivalent to Online Main Event or Live Side Event) = 1.5
$120+ (Equivalent to Live Main Event) = 2
Some examples :-
WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
^^^ This scoring seems to make the online pretty irrelevant?
I wouldn"t say it"s irrelevant, but simply reflects the fewer runners and cheaper buyins.
I like the weighting system, but in the example given, one person could win 13 online league MTTs with 120 runners in each - and be outranked by someone who just plays one solitary APAT event and happens to win the WCOAP ME..... surely beating 120 runners 13 times should outweigh a single event winner?
Principle is sound - just need the weightings to be tweaked, in my opinion.
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Is there a provisional list of cities available yet for the live amateur tour? It seems like there won"t be a Scotland leg so would be keen to know the best options for travel so I have an idea where to plan for. I appreciate dates aren"t available at the moment.
Out of curiosity, any specific reason why we can"t get a leg on in Ediburgh?
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Is there a provisional list of cities available yet for the live amateur tour? It seems like there won"t be a Scotland leg so would be keen to know the best options for travel so I have an idea where to plan for. I appreciate dates aren"t available at the moment.
Out of curiosity, any specific reason why we can"t get a leg on in Ediburgh?
We"ve run the Scottish Amateur Championship in Edinburgh in three of the last five seasons and there are absolutely no plans to not go to Scotland in season six. The Scottish leg; if not the pies, is always a cracking event.
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We"ve run the Scottish Amateur Championship in Edinburgh in three of the last five seasons and there are absolutely no plans to not go to Scotland in season six. The Scottish leg; if not the pies, is always a cracking event.
Great news. I"ve only played the last two years in Aberdeen & Glasgow but thought after the problems last year and the tone in the thread that there wouldn"t be a Scottish event this year. I"ll be sure to spread the APAT word.
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I think that the rankings are due a revamp.
I would like to see a structure that takes into account the buyin, number of runners, whether it"s live or online.
The top 10% should earn ranking points, with a multiplier based on buyin (which would also take into account a differential between live and online)
$10 (Equivalent to Online League) = 0.5
$20 (Equivalent to Online Side Event) = 1
$50-$100 (Equivalent to Online Main Event or Live Side Event) = 1.5
$120+ (Equivalent to Live Main Event) = 2
Some examples :-
WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
^^^ This scoring seems to make the online pretty irrelevant?
I wouldn"t say it"s irrelevant, but simply reflects the fewer runners and cheaper buyins.
I like the weighting system, but in the example given, one person could win 13 online league MTTs with 120 runners in each - and be outranked by someone who just plays one solitary APAT event and happens to win the WCOAP ME..... surely beating 120 runners 13 times should outweigh a single event winner?
Principle is sound - just need the weightings to be tweaked, in my opinion.
I agree - interesting proposal but too much weighting for the WCOAP ME. It shouldn"t be worth almost three times the points that a normal National would get.
Online league winners don"t get any ranking points at present Steve - not sure whether Leigh is aware of a change of a change in APAT's thinking on this.
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I think that the rankings are due a revamp.
I would like to see a structure that takes into account the buyin, number of runners, whether it"s live or online.
The top 10% should earn ranking points, with a multiplier based on buyin (which would also take into account a differential between live and online)
$10 (Equivalent to Online League) = 0.5
$20 (Equivalent to Online Side Event) = 1
$50-$100 (Equivalent to Online Main Event or Live Side Event) = 1.5
$120+ (Equivalent to Live Main Event) = 2
Some examples :-
WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
^^^ This scoring seems to make the online pretty irrelevant?
I wouldn"t say it"s irrelevant, but simply reflects the fewer runners and cheaper buyins.
I like the weighting system, but in the example given, one person could win 13 online league MTTs with 120 runners in each - and be outranked by someone who just plays one solitary APAT event and happens to win the WCOAP ME..... surely beating 120 runners 13 times should outweigh a single event winner?
Principle is sound - just need the weightings to be tweaked, in my opinion.
I agree - interesting proposal but too much weighting for the WCOAP ME. It shouldn"t be worth almost three times the points that a normal National would get.
Online league winners don"t get any ranking points at present Steve - not sure whether Leigh is aware of a change of a change in APAT's thinking on this.
Spotted that, and presumed it might be a subliminal announcement....
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We moved from subliminal (season two) to direct (season 6) - hence this thread, perhaps taking a little detour through "soon" along the way.
I like Leigh's idea though. Anything that can incentivise players to participate in the league is very much to our benefit in negotiations with the operators.
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I no longer know anything, although some may question if I ever knew anything in the first place. My views are purely my own thoughts.
I agree the weighting needs sorting, but in principle I think that this style of ranking would offer a chance to compare all APAT players against each other, irrelevant of whether you play the league, or just online, or just live, or every event you can.
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Is there a provisional list of cities available yet for the live amateur tour? It seems like there won"t be a Scotland leg so would be keen to know the best options for travel so I have an idea where to plan for. I appreciate dates aren"t available at the moment.
Out of curiosity, any specific reason why we can"t get a leg on in Ediburgh?
We"ve run the Scottish Amateur Championship in Edinburgh in three of the last five seasons and there are absolutely no plans to not go to Scotland in season six. The Scottish leg; if not the pies, is always a cracking event.
wheres the like button when u need one, lol
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I no longer know anything, although some may question if I ever knew anything in the first place. My views are purely my own thoughts.
I agree the weighting needs sorting, but in principle I think that this style of ranking would offer a chance to compare all APAT players against each other, irrelevant of whether you play the league, or just online, or just live, or every event you can.
The weighting is pretty key.
If you have ranking points for the online league games, national games and omaha side events - too high a weighting could make the live results irrelevant but too low a weighting (for the league games for example) could make them irrelevant.
If we could balance out all those online points scoring opportunities with extra live events (regionals?) that would work ;D
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I think that the rankings are due a revamp.
I would like to see a structure that takes into account the buyin, number of runners, whether it"s live or online.
The top 10% should earn ranking points, with a multiplier based on buyin (which would also take into account a differential between live and online)
$10 (Equivalent to Online League) = 0.5
$20 (Equivalent to Online Side Event) = 1
$50-$100 (Equivalent to Online Main Event or Live Side Event) = 1.5
$120+ (Equivalent to Live Main Event) = 2
Some examples :-
WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
^^^ This scoring seems to make the online pretty irrelevant?
I wouldn"t say it"s irrelevant, but simply reflects the fewer runners and cheaper buyins.
I like the weighting system, but in the example given, one person could win 13 online league MTTs with 120 runners in each - and be outranked by someone who just plays one solitary APAT event and happens to win the WCOAP ME..... surely beating 120 runners 13 times should outweigh a single event winner?
Principle is sound - just need the weightings to be tweaked, in my opinion.
I agree - interesting proposal but too much weighting for the WCOAP ME. It shouldn"t be worth almost three times the points that a normal National would get.
Online league winners don"t get any ranking points at present Steve - not sure whether Leigh is aware of a change of a change in APAT's thinking on this.
Spotted that, and presumed it might be a subliminal announcement....
A way of countering this is to have participation points for each event and perhaps having a points booster say after every 10 events. This will reward those loyal to APAT
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Have the suggested type of points system if necessary - just ensure there is a minimum number of points available.
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Enough discussion, are we there yet ?
This is so tilting being out of the loop, it is unreal.
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Enough discussion, are we there yet ?
This is so tilting being out of the loop, it is unreal.
theres an easy solution to that one isnt there...
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Enough discussion, are we there yet ?
This is so tilting being out of the loop, it is unreal.
theres an easy solution to that one isnt there...
The Terms & Conditions would be far too complicated I think. ;)
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Enough discussion, are we there yet ?
This is so tilting being out of the loop, it is unreal.
theres an easy solution to that one isnt there...
The Terms & Conditions would be far too complicated I think. ;)
and that"s before you even talk to Des and co.
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WCOAP Main Event winner (based on 400 runners) = 40x2 = 80pts
National Event winner (based on 150 runners) = 15x2 = 30pts
Online Main Event Winner (based on 80 runners) = 8x1.5 = 12pts
Online League Matchday Winner (based on 120 runners) = 12x.5 = 6pts
How about using the Pocket 5"s ranking formula? I haven"t read up on how it has evolved, but I"m sure better, more analytical minds than mine were involved! If you need to know the thinking behind it, look here - http://www.pocketfives.com/leaderboard-formula-faq
The calculator itself and the formula can be found here - http://www.pocketfives.com/plb-calculator/
It would provide the following range of points, based on;
- The field size / buy-in examples above
- Points only awarded to ITM places (10% of field used for each example)
- £1 live = $1 online (since £ for £ the standard online is generally higher, this seems a reasonable exchange rate?)
| Runners/Buy-In | 1st Place | Last ITM place |
| 400 @ £100 | 200 | 21.87 |
| 150 @ £75 | 106.07 | 20.89 |
| 80 @ $50 | 63.25 | 18.6 |
| 120 @ $10 | 34.64 | 7.8 |
Never been one to re-invent the wheel.
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...
A way of countering this is to have participation points for each event and perhaps having a points booster say after every 10 events. This will reward those loyal to APAT
Participation points are a very good way of encouraging play - but a very bad way of measuring skill.
I had a thought about national ranking points for league games though.
Instead of points per game - which would horribly skew the rankings to favour online players
The final league table could be awarded national ranking points - as if it"s an additional national championship.
18 points down to 1 for the top 18 in the league:
(i) obviously a legitimate measure of skill
(ii) encourages extra participation in the league
(iii) but doesn"t excessively distort the rankings against the players who don"t play the league
2 leagues per season = 2 extra sets of National Championship ranking points to fight for
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Season 5 is Over, Does that mean we can have an anouncement about Season 6?
Can we?
Please?
Are we there yet?
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Season 5 is Over, Does that mean we can have an anouncement about Season 6?
Can we?
Please?
Are we there yet?
To quote a certain close-mounted ginger...."Not yet".
I understand there are still some details to iron out in the next few days.
When everything is in place...he"ll drop the word....at least I am so assured.
I hinted at 1st February but he remained tight-lipped.
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Good times.
(http://gingersdonthavesouls.viralprints.com/system/photos/569/large/jesuswasaginger.png)
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when dose season 6 start........sooooooooon i hope
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The nation awaits
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when dose season 6 start........sooooooooon i hope
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/HoldyFoldy/DesPieChart.jpg)
Worthy of a second outing this Pie Chart ;-)
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We can"t book our holiday to Rome till I know when the Scottish is :D
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We can"t book our holiday to Rome till I know when the Scottish is :D
That"s ironic; I can"t book my holiday to Scotland till I know when the Roman is 8)
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Good times.
(http://gingersdonthavesouls.viralprints.com/system/photos/569/large/jesuswasaginger.png)
So is Gordon Strachan.
Your witness.
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I can"t believe we"ve just signed off on our fifth season! Thanks to everyone who took part, it was a great year and we"re looking forward to launching an even more exciting schedule in season six.
But before we can do that, we have a number of big decisions to make regarding the direction that APAT will take moving forward. I have several meetings scheduled over the next two weeks and the outcome of those will help determine the route we take.
Our options as I see it are as follows:-
1) We enter an annual partnership as per the previous five seasons.
- The positive in this option is that it offers APAT a fixed position and a set budget for the season.
- The negative being that the market continues to move significantly and it is not certain we can achieve the best deal for players with an annual partnership. In addition, typically once a budget is agreed we become unable to further innovate during the season.
2) We enter a "per event" partnership with different operators for each of our National Amateur Championship properties.
- The positive here is that once up and running this can deliver the budget we would like in place for the season. In addition, with no exclusive agreement in place, it would enable us to put the National Online League on our choice of poker room and we already have a proposal on the table with our preferred operator for that.
- The negatives would be a requirement on members to sign up to several operators throughout the year. That said, we would ensure there was an exciting schedule of events in additon to our live and online National Championship events to ensure signing up is worthwhile. The other negative of course is that an event may be called into question should its proposed partner pull out at the last minute.
3) We open an APAT Online Poker Room and generate the budget for our live schedule via this.
- The positive here is that APAT would operate as a business and if managed well, we would be able to generate a marketing budget (in addition to our live events budget) to continue the growth of the brand. In addition members would be able to feed into the structures and schedules of all of our online events.
- The negative here is that it would rely on the support and committment of members to play online with APAT and to be proud of and promote our brand.
So as you can see there are some big decisions to be made over the next two weeks before we can confirm the season six schedule. I"ve published the above to keep you guys in the loop as much as possible. In doing so, I"m aware that a lot of people will post their support of the option above that they consider the easiest for themselves. All I would ask of those who do choose to post on this, is that you have a good think about all of the options before condemning any! :)
I know some members think we like to drag out the annual season announcements, but this really isn"t the case. The minute we know, you guys will know.
Cheers,
Des aka Ginger Jesus ;)
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Balding shrek agrees.
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Wow!!! choices choices!
At first glance (blatently ignoring Des" think carefully plea) ideas 2 and 3 seem to be the most exciting to me.
I do my best thinking after drinking heavily, i will be back on here later :p
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Quite like the idea of option 3 and having an online APAT poker room. I"m presuming that this would be skin over a current poker network? I"m not a serious grinding online player, but you"d need to be careful which network was selected for volume of players, availability of games... as I"m guessing the more serious online players within the membership would be reluctant to move from more fishier waters to try and grind a roll in a tougher environment.
Option 2... having individual sponsors and having members to sign up to multiple operators wouldn"t be a major problem. I would hazard a guess that most members who play online will have signed up to most of the popular poker rooms and have accounts anyway. The downside here I would see is getting sponsors for the less glamerous nationals locations. The worlds would be snapped up, but would you have sponsors lining up for the less glamerous fixtures? For example if you ever god forbid came to Stockton would you have anyone other than Greggs interested? Just think that this option would cause extra workloads for you guys in negotiating and I"m presuming that having one sponsor a year is hard enough work never mind one for each championship.
My gut feeling would be a combination of 2 and 3... The pro"s of 3 giving an independant revenue stream for APAT and option 2 and sponsorship for the prestige events such as the worlds being sponsored etc... like DTD did in the last season.
Then again option 1 has worked over the past 5 seasons.... if you can get the right deal and it means stability for the remainder of the season without having any events in doubt then I"m always a fan. Nothing worse than planning time off work and around holidays for an event and to have it cancelled.
Just my twopenneth x
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Quite like the idea of option 3 and having an online APAT poker room. I"m presuming that this would be skin over a current poker network? I"m not a serious grinding online player, but you"d need to be careful which network was selected for volume of players, availability of games... as I"m guessing the more serious online players within the membership would be reluctant to move from more fishier waters to try and grind a roll in a tougher environment.
Option 2... having individual sponsors and having members to sign up to multiple operators wouldn"t be a major problem. I would hazard a guess that most members who play online will have signed up to most of the popular poker rooms and have accounts anyway. The downside here I would see is getting sponsors for the less glamerous nationals locations. The worlds would be snapped up, but would you have sponsors lining up for the less glamerous fixtures? For example if you ever god forbid came to Stockton would you have anyone other than Greggs interested? Just think that this option would cause extra workloads for you guys in negotiating and I"m presuming that having one sponsor a year is hard enough work never mind one for each championship.
My gut feeling would be a combination of 2 and 3... The pro"s of 3 giving an independant revenue stream for APAT and option 2 and sponsorship for the prestige events such as the worlds being sponsored etc... like DTD did in the last season.
Then again option 1 has worked over the past 5 seasons.... if you can get the right deal and it means stability for the remainder of the season without having any events in doubt then I"m always a fan. Nothing worse than planning time off work and around holidays for an event and to have it cancelled.
Just my twopenneth x
Sums up what I was thinking ... saves me having to type it out ;D
Good luck with the meetings, pretty sure whatever way it pans out there will be support from APAT members.
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Quite like the idea of option 3 and having an online APAT poker room. I"m presuming that this would be skin over a current poker network? I"m not a serious grinding online player, but you"d need to be careful which network was selected for volume of players, availability of games... as I"m guessing the more serious online players within the membership would be reluctant to move from more fishier waters to try and grind a roll in a tougher environment.
Option 2... having individual sponsors and having members to sign up to multiple operators wouldn"t be a major problem. I would hazard a guess that most members who play online will have signed up to most of the popular poker rooms and have accounts anyway. The downside here I would see is getting sponsors for the less glamerous nationals locations. The worlds would be snapped up, but would you have sponsors lining up for the less glamerous fixtures? For example if you ever god forbid came to Stockton would you have anyone other than Greggs interested? Just think that this option would cause extra workloads for you guys in negotiating and I"m presuming that having one sponsor a year is hard enough work never mind one for each championship.
My gut feeling would be a combination of 2 and 3... The pro"s of 3 giving an independant revenue stream for APAT and option 2 and sponsorship for the prestige events such as the worlds being sponsored etc... like DTD did in the last season.
Then again option 1 has worked over the past 5 seasons.... if you can get the right deal and it means stability for the remainder of the season without having any events in doubt then I"m always a fan. Nothing worse than planning time off work and around holidays for an event and to have it cancelled.
Just my twopenneth x
Sums up what I was thinking ... saves me having to type it out ;D
Good luck with the meetings, pretty sure whatever way it pans out there will be support from APAT members.
So you both basically dont know :p
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Then again option 1 has worked over the past 5 seasons.... if you can get the right deal and it means stability for the remainder of the season without having any events in doubt then I"m always a fan. Nothing worse than planning time off work and around holidays for an event and to have it cancelled.
This....+1
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Option 3 would be very brave. It is quite exciting but you would rely on the patronage of your high rakers who may be on good deals elsewhere.
I don"t like Option 2. Personally, I"m trying to cut down on the number of sites I use, especially with all these hacking stories and the very real risk of some sites going t*ts up in the recession. Chopping and changing is bitty, messy and a few people just might not bother with it.
Option 1 is probably the most boring, but the one I like most so I suppose I must be boring. I would like a safe site to play APAT poker on and probably most of my (small stakes) poker would be played there. One site, everything on it - Simples!
I would do my best to play whatever the outcome is though.
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Really good to know that plenty of work is going on in the background (we all knew that anyway, but thanks for putting it down in black and white).
Whilst APAT brought cheap, well run tournaments to the masses first - there is more and more competition than ever before in this area. Option 1 is the safe option and maintains the status quo, but there are more and more similar offerings around these days. Being first on the scene APAT has a name, a (short) history and a loyal player base. One Brighton local was wondering what the point of the trophy and medals were - personally I think it"s a small touch that differentiates the APAT brand perfectly. Imo these are (albeit small) advantages that can be built on.
If I had one critique about APAT is that the visibility does not match the passion of either the organisers or the players. The majority of locals I spoke to in Brighton had no idea who or what APAT was and the event didn"t sell out. I know Brighton was a late addition, money doesn"t grow on trees and APAT can"t throw money at marketing, but I"m surprised a couple of sponsors haven"t done better.
I would agree with Phil that the hardcore would certainly have multiple poker clients available - is this true of the casual player? I would think not - not that I have any evidence to back up my opinion. Has APAT done any research? Option 2 seems like the hardest option but potentially has large benefits. Same with Option 3 but I don"t know the risk to APAT if it were to be a bust - could be big if it took off I guess.
If the Nationals are played in the right places I don"t think they need to be touched (some larger capacities would be nice though). The Online League has been discussed to death and everyone has their own ideas there. It would be nice to see some weight thrown behind a flagship event (be it the Worlds or something else) and for APAT + sponsor to jump up and down and shout "Hey, look at us". Grosvenor got well over 1,000 for the Goliath, DTD plenty for their £50 super tournament. Not suggesting APAT goes and offers £100k guarantees (or maybe...) but there is clearly appetite for a well marketed lower stakes event.
As far as I see. Option 1 is a check, option 2 is a shove and with option 3 you"ve also thrown your car keys in and flopped your nuts out onto the table.
Anyone who"s been to an institution I"ve been banned from knows which I"d prefer. I"d hate to see APAT stagnate and fear it might unless it keeps ahead of the competition.
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Quite like the idea of option 3 and having an online APAT poker room. I"m presuming that this would be skin over a current poker network? I"m not a serious grinding online player, but you"d need to be careful which network was selected for volume of players, availability of games... as I"m guessing the more serious online players within the membership would be reluctant to move from more fishier waters to try and grind a roll in a tougher environment.
Option 2... having individual sponsors and having members to sign up to multiple operators wouldn"t be a major problem. I would hazard a guess that most members who play online will have signed up to most of the popular poker rooms and have accounts anyway. The downside here I would see is getting sponsors for the less glamerous nationals locations. The worlds would be snapped up, but would you have sponsors lining up for the less glamerous fixtures? For example if you ever god forbid came to Stockton would you have anyone other than Greggs interested? Just think that this option would cause extra workloads for you guys in negotiating and I"m presuming that having one sponsor a year is hard enough work never mind one for each championship.
My gut feeling would be a combination of 2 and 3... The pro"s of 3 giving an independant revenue stream for APAT and option 2 and sponsorship for the prestige events such as the worlds being sponsored etc... like DTD did in the last season.
Then again option 1 has worked over the past 5 seasons.... if you can get the right deal and it means stability for the remainder of the season without having any events in doubt then I"m always a fan. Nothing worse than planning time off work and around holidays for an event and to have it cancelled.
Just my twopenneth x
Sums up what I was thinking ... saves me having to type it out ;D
Good luck with the meetings, pretty sure whatever way it pans out there will be support from APAT members.
i wish apat well whichever choice they make and will give them my full backing as i have really enjoyed the last 8 months playing with you all
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I"m an old stick in the mud but I don"t see that Options 2 & 3 offer the stability or guaranteed budget that a full season of events would (to my mind) require. I much prefer KNOWING that an event will be taking place at a certain venue and on certain date (subject only to the vicissitudes of fate) and planning my year well in advance.
Innovation, isn"t that what Sunday"s are for? Although I"d be sad to see them go the Side Events COULD be substituted with other things...after all it was tried in Brighton.
I"m not condemning 2 & 3 and whatever the eventual result I"d still be turning up regardless...one way or another.
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(subject only to the vicissitudes of fate)
I love that word 8)
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(subject only to the vicissitudes of fate)
I love that word 8)
Then you"re gonna love this...http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=7090.msg168382#msg168382
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I"m an old stick in the mud but I don"t see that Options 2 & 3 offer the stability or guaranteed budget that a full season of events would (to my mind) require. I much prefer KNOWING that an event will be taking place at a certain venue and on certain date (subject only to the vicissitudes of fate) and planning my year well in advance.
With regards to season six I have to agree with Paulie. Long term, however Option 3 maybe the most profitable way to go, providing you can find a good network to launch a skin through, and possibly an aggressive marketing campaign around local card-rooms, pub poker leagues etc.
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It"s all exciting ...options 1 n 3 for me...n a full run at it this yr hopefully....
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Option 1 for me.
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ss far as I see. Option 1 is a check, option 2 is a shove and with option 3 you"ve also thrown your car keys in and flopped your nuts out onto the table.
I think that pretty much sums it up. Nicely put Dave.
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Option 1 please As
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Option 1 would be my personal preference by a mile. It would provide a greater stability for the forthcoming season and involve the least amount of ongoing stress for Des, Tighty and team.
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Option 1 with pokerstars would be reallllllllllllllllll good.
Would like to see it stay in the UK and have more mixed games at each event.
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Option 1 with pokerstars would be reallllllllllllllllll good.
Would like to see it stay in the UK and have more mixed games at each event.
+1 (esp. the Pokerstars bit).
I think stability is the key.
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Option 3 would be very brave. It is quite exciting but you would rely on the patronage of your high rakers who may be on good deals elsewhere.
I don"t like Option 2. Personally, I"m trying to cut down on the number of sites I use, especially with all these hacking stories and the very real risk of some sites going t*ts up in the recession. Chopping and changing is bitty, messy and a few people just might not bother with it.
Option 1 is probably the most boring, but the one I like most so I suppose I must be boring. I would like a safe site to play APAT poker on and probably most of my (small stakes) poker would be played there. One site, everything on it - Simples!
I agree.
I would do my best to play whatever the outcome is though.
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Then again option 1 has worked over the past 5 seasons.... if you can get the right deal and it means stability for the remainder of the season without having any events in doubt then I"m always a fan. Nothing worse than planning time off work and around holidays for an event and to have it cancelled.
This....+1
This + 2 And I for one would be in favour of a membership fee like season one had, to cover any shortfall in sponsorship in these times of austerity.
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Option one seems to be the safest option assuming you get the deal you need of course.
One of the newer sites might be the best ones to approach, but Im sure you have done plenty in the way of getting a deal. It also seems to have worked well over the past few years.
Option two, as you say runs the risk of a sponsor pulling out at the last minute and event(s) being cancelled. Its also going to be very hard to get people to sign up to multiple sites.
Option three, sounds good and would be ideal if it worked, but if it doesnt it could do a lot of damage to APAT. Theres a lot of online sites that dont make it, its a tough market to crack and would take a lot to make it work.
Im sure this doesnt make your decison any easier Des lol
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If the Nationals are played in the right places I don"t think they need to be touched (some larger capacities would be nice though). The Online League has been discussed to death and everyone has their own ideas there. It would be nice to see some weight thrown behind a flagship event (be it the Worlds or something else) and for APAT + sponsor to jump up and down and shout "Hey, look at us". Grosvenor got well over 1,000 for the Goliath, DTD plenty for their £50 super tournament. Not suggesting APAT goes and offers £100k guarantees (or maybe...) but there is clearly appetite for a well marketed lower stakes event.
Agree with this.
As far as I see. Option 1 is a check, option 2 is a shove and with option 3 you"ve also thrown your car keys in and flopped your nuts out onto the table.
And this has had me giggling at my desk for 5 mins now. :)
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option 1 is getting a bit tired IMO - Des negotiates great deal, site looks at a how much value they have got from the deal at the end of the year, site not impressed, site not interested in sponsoring any more, des negotiates deal for for next season...rinse and repeat....untill we run out of sites
This option is never helped by members whinging about the site, whether it be the software or a CS issue. I know most greivances are genuine, but I feel a bit of diplomacy and vision of the bigger picture is in order here.
Option 2 looks ok but would be a lot of work for Des and would feel like the season is permanantly in limbo. (and the winge posts about all the different online sites would put me on permanant tilt)
I love option 3 - Des has the skillz to get this off the ground and to make it a success.....Can I have rakeback please???
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Is there a potential hybrid option?
Option 3 affiliated to Option 1 for the core events with option 2 for some "one offs"?
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I love option 3 - Des has the skillz to get this off the ground and to make it a success.
If Des opens APAT Poker and it has to generate sufficient revenue profit to fund the next event on a month to month basis then we"re left, potentially, lurching from event to event without knowing if APAT can afford to actually put it on. So, this is an Option 2 all over again.
I"d love Option 3...if it GUARANTEED me a full season of live APAT events straight out of the gate. That"s what I want.
If it did that, I"d sign up on Day 1....but I strongly doubt that it would. And of course, a new APAT Poker site can"t start generating revenue to fund S7 if it"s competing with a sponsor during S6...sort of Catch 22 really.
Frankly, I"d prefer to pay a membership fee first (which gave me some sort of privilege...be it preferred registration or something)
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Is there a potential hybrid option?
Option 3 affiliated to Option 1 for the core events with option 2 for some "one offs"?
This is, IMHO, where we are headed but...as I just said..
And of course, a new APAT Poker site can"t start generating revenue to fund S7 if it"s competing with a sponsor during S6.
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There are two distinct elements to all these options.
Element 1: Apat schedule and announce the coming seasons list of events, venues & dates. Early announcement of dates is important to quite a few members for logistical reasons, time off work, travel arrangements etc. This is more or less common to all 3 options so, is it that much of a complication in terms of choice?
Element 2: Apat secure a sponsorship package so as to continue to provide the "Added Value" we"ve grown to love. It would appear that sadly some members now expect this added bonus even to a point where it becomes "the" key factor in their continued presence at Apat events. Would the absence of "added value" substantially effect attendance?
Already excellently stated in Rob"s post, option 1 has not yet secured a repeat sale and if we"re honest, most likely won"t ever do so. Ultimately the sponsors well will run dry. It seems to me that option 2 is simply a thirstier version of option 1 with the potential to empty the well faster. Is there a chance that the Sponsor pool may not pay as much attention to the smaller bite-sizes? How can we provide more return to our sponsorship partner/partners so as to sustain a lasting mutually beneficial relationship?
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There are two distinct elements to all these options.
Element 1: Apat schedule and announce the coming seasons list of events, venues & dates. Early announcement of dates is important to quite a few members for logistical reasons, time off work, travel arrangements etc. This is more or less common to all 3 options so, is it that much of a complication in terms of choice?
Element 2: Apat secure a sponsorship package so as to continue to provide the "Added Value" we"ve grown to love. It would appear that sadly some members now expect this added bonus even to a point where it becomes "the" key factor in their continued presence at Apat events. Would the absence of "added value" substantially effect attendance?
Already excellently stated in Rob"s post, option 1 has not yet secured a repeat sale and if we"re honest, most likely won"t ever do so. Ultimately the sponsors well will run dry. It seems to me that option 2 is simply a thirstier version of option 1 with the potential to empty the well faster. Is there a chance that the Sponsor pool may not pay as much attention to the smaller bite-sizes? How can we provide more return to our sponsorship partner/partners so as to sustain a lasting mutually beneficial relationship?
I agree with all of this...I know it"s a KEY thing with APAT that tournaments are run reg. free but perhaps, say, 10% not be too much to pay. After all, isn"t that where most of the sponsorship monies go?
Equally, if the extra prize (which is usually a seat and not extra cash) were to disappear it wouldn"t stop me turning up.
If APAT is to survive, even thrive, something, IMHO, has to change at a core level.
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Some of the assumptions over the last few posts haven"t been correct guys.
For one thing, Blue Square sponsored APAT in both season 2 and 3. In addition, the law of diminishing returns suggests that sponsors are less likely to do as well in the second year of a relationship as in the first. That is not to say that they don"t do well in the first; that"s not the case at all. We"ve had continuation discussions with all of our sponsors but ultimately if we don"t get the right deal, then I"m very unlikely to go forward.
With regards the three options in my initial post on this topic; my opinion at this stage is that we potentially tie our hands with option 1 and it becomes hard to jump off that treadmill, which I think we need to to evolve. Option 3 if delivered and supported well offers the best long term option for the business and the players. Ultimately we may need to go through a period of option 2, to enable APAT to go forward with option 3 - nuts and all in the middle. :)
To clarify something I said on option 2. I"ve never had a deal of mine fall through so I was perhaps being cautious listing it as a concern. In reality, once an operator has signed on as a sponsor the deal is highly unlikely to fall over. In addition there would be nothing to stop us publishing the complete calendar so that players have sight of all events; with the later event sponsors tbc. Ultimately we are talking about UK events and as long as you book sensibly, there shouldn"t be any issues.
What would help is members promoting APAT to their friends and encouraging them to join and like our FB group etc. Silly stuff like that is very appreciated.
To finish I spoke to a certain Mr Tapie today and he sends his regards. ;)
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I think Option 3 is the next logical step and very exciting, I also echo the words of Paulie in terms of a membership fee as a choice. Which gives a benefit, such as earlier options on buy-ins to tournaments potentially.
I"m also sure that the vast majority of APAT members wouldn"t be adverse to supporting the initial transition to Option 3.
I for one would support this.
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I think Option 3 is the next logical step and very exciting, I also echo the words of Paulie in terms of a membership fee as a choice. Which gives a benefit, such as earlier options on buy-ins to tournaments potentially.
I"m also sure that the vast majority of APAT members wouldn"t be adverse to supporting the initial transition to Option 3.
I for one would support this.
Just to expand on a previous thought...
Des....
Is a reg. fee completely out of the question for APAT events? Say 10%...cheaper than most and anything else could be made up from sponsorship / revenue?
My thinking is that APAT could offer a "Season Ticket Membership" for say £75 p.a. (payable up front) which would allow 10 guaranteed seats with "free entry" across a single season. Use it or lose it like.
Some variant of that....might work.
While there is no doubting the good intentions behind this Paulie, I think it would drive active membership down as opposed to becoming a meaningful revenue stream. But I appreciate the creativity.
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Option 3 is a very exciting prospect but quite risky I"d have thought, is making a move like this against a very unconvincing financial state wise?
Option 1, tried, tested, and very successful. Ha switching sponsors each year since S3 altered anything? Has it decreased membership, or players playong online or live?
Sponsors will of course be tighter with marketing budgets, everyone is at present.
Get the best deal possible, maybe even offer a 2 year deal, etc.
For me option 1.
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General question linked to option 3. What are the costs associated with setting up an online site, both to establish it and then ongoing licences etc? Another well known forum used to have it"s own skin on i=poker but when this was lost they never set up a new site which led me to assume, maybe wrongly, that the rake they would have taken would not be sufficient to cover expenses and make a reasonable profit.
The online poker market is pretty saturated and while the APAT regs would no doubt support it, to what level would new traffic be needed to make this a viable option?
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General question linked to option 3. What are the costs associated with setting up an online site, both to establish it and then ongoing licences etc? Another well known forum used to have it"s own skin on i=poker but when this was lost they never set up a new site which led me to assume, maybe wrongly, that the rake they would have taken would not be sufficient to cover expenses and make a reasonable profit.
The online poker market is pretty saturated and while the APAT regs would no doubt support it, to what level would new traffic be needed to make this a viable option?
The strength of the deal is key here. The site that you mention above actually generated significant revenue however it was unduly hammered every time the network had an overlay. In addition they were liable for additional costs that I would never sign up to. That may limit our options, but I wouldn"t sign up to any agreement that wouldn"t be beneficial to APAT.
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General question linked to option 3. What are the costs associated with setting up an online site, both to establish it and then ongoing licences etc? Another well known forum used to have it"s own skin on i=poker but when this was lost they never set up a new site which led me to assume, maybe wrongly, that the rake they would have taken would not be sufficient to cover expenses and make a reasonable profit.
The online poker market is pretty saturated and while the APAT regs would no doubt support it, to what level would new traffic be needed to make this a viable option?
The strength of the deal is key here. The site that you mention above actually generated significant revenue however it was unduly hammered every time the network had an overlay. In addition they were liable for additional costs that I would never sign up to. That may limit our options, but I wouldn"t sign up to any agreement that wouldn"t be beneficial to APAT.
This was only part of the problem encountered but yes, its all down to
a) the contract you have (and I inherited one that was nasty to the skin)
b) the policies of the network you are on
If those are right then yes to take Glenn"s point the margin on gross rake can be good
as to setting up a skin from scratch, set up costs are generally quoted at $25,000+ though as with most areas of life it depends who you know
Of course you don"t necessarily need to set up a skin from scratch. Arguably the market is too fragmented and consolidation is needed to give smaller skins on various network more critical mass/economies of scale
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London Venue ??
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London Venue ??
Have been to the Vic before, do Luton most years which is 40 minutes away
Nothing against a London venue, apart from the expenses being dearer for most people
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Option 1 would be my preference in the short term as it is low risk.
I can see that in the long run - option 3 is the most likely revenue generating option. I would have thought that the competencies required for running and organising a tour are very different to those needed for running a successful online poker room.
I do think that with some more marketing every APAT event could be a 3 day"er - not sure if this is the desired direction though. I see no reason why APAT does not charge a reg fee in the current climate. Introducing a reg fee is not likely to alienate the vast majority of members as it is just the norm in poker tournaments. Also not having a reg fee is not enough of an incentive to make someone choose to play an APAT tournament over another tournament. If we can prove that a 10% reg fee would not decrease numbers with a test event then I think it should be introduced.
Its the difference between £1K per event that can go into the budget for other things like growing the player base. Plus it creates a nice virtuous circle as your total rake increases as the player base increases.
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I would happily pay a reg fee, and Im sure the majority would agree to this.
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Further to the above post by Mark...perhaps this got "involved" with the other idea that I had (which I may come back to depending on the reply)
The APAT ethos has always been "Reg Free" but I think it"s clear that this is not sustainable in the current climate. so I"ll ask it again.
Des....
Is a reg. fee completely out of the question for APAT events? Say 10%...cheaper than most and anything else could be made up from sponsorship / revenue?
If the answer is "No "Live" Reg Fee Ever" then we know what we are looking at. It"s a lovely idea but considering where we are, is it practical?
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Whilst adding a reg fee would not be a problem for any APAT regular, in a time where many local poker rooms are upping reg fees on smaller tournaments, it then removes a facet that differentiates APAT from the competition. The whole feeling/ethos of APAT is "For the player" and not having reg fees is probably the cleanest and best way to advertise/explain this to the general poker playing public. The reg fee won"t stop people from playing, but the APAT message gets lost for me - it just becomes another tournament. If APAT is to grow as a poker brand it really needs as much help as possible.
Same as Glenn, I was thinking of the same poker forum cum site that is no longer in existence. If the contract minefield can be negotiated then I shall remove my nuts from the table and stick the car keys back in the pocket as I think it would be best way to take APAT to the next level.
I echo AOTR with the marketing stuff (I don"t think 3 day events are the answer, holidays required and the bank holiday competition is as strong as it comes). I tell plenty of people about APAT, but with nothing tangible it"s soon forgotten. I know a number of people who would play them, but it needs to be made easy for them! I"d certainly be happy to assist in Southampton (if still living here).
Would APAT consider guaranteeing prize pools at Nationals? Say £8-10k guaranteed depending on capacity. You"ll always reach the figure, but "guaranteed" is a big seller. If I see a £50-100 buy-in on the Hendon Mob database, without further knowledge I"m only going to assume it gets 50 or so runners from experience and probably not bother with it. I"d like to see a select number of events with upped capacities being given a real push in S6 (regardless of the option chosen).
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Would APAT consider guaranteeing prize pools at Nationals? Say £8-10k guaranteed depending on capacity. You"ll always reach the figure, but "guaranteed" is a big seller.
But it"s a con...as you admitted...that"s not "APAT" either.
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I can see that in the long run - option 3 is the most likely revenue generating option. I would have thought that the competencies required for running and organising a tour are very different to those needed for running a successful online poker room.
As luck would have it we"re unusually well experienced in that department.
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Would APAT consider guaranteeing prize pools at Nationals? Say £8-10k guaranteed depending on capacity. You"ll always reach the figure, but "guaranteed" is a big seller.
But it"s a con...as you admitted...that"s not "APAT" either.
How is a guarantee a con? It"s a safeguard for players who are willing to travel and show up who might not otherwise do so.
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Whilst adding a reg fee would not be a problem for any APAT regular, in a time where many local poker rooms are upping reg fees on smaller tournaments, it then removes a facet that differentiates APAT from the competition.
I don't believe that people play APAT's because they are Reg free. Yes, it is a differentiator but, as said previously, I don't believe it is one that is really noticed or that relevant.
APAT's differentiator and past success has been based upon offering a well structured, well run, relatively low buy in tournament that offers a "big tournament" feel. It is still true today that your average casino tournament quickly becomes a crapshoot - APAT offers you an alternative to this. That's the APAT message. A registration fee does not dilute that message.
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Further to the above post by Mark...perhaps this got "involved" with the other idea that I had (which I may come back to depending on the reply)
The APAT ethos has always been "Reg Free" but I think it"s clear that this is not sustainable in the current climate. so I"ll ask it again.
Des....
Is a reg. fee completely out of the question for APAT events? Say 10%...cheaper than most and anything else could be made up from sponsorship / revenue?
If the answer is "No "Live" Reg Fee Ever" then we know what we are looking at. It"s a lovely idea but considering where we are, is it practical?
Never say never of course, but I"m proud of the fact that APAT have effectively paid the registration fee of every player who has ever participated in a live APAT event over five years. That"s an incredible "pro-player" statement to be able to make and I"d personally hate to lose it.
That said, I"ve been considering other ways that we could reward our member base if we go down the route of option 3. For example I could see APAT setting aside a % of net revenues for players - and essentialy you guys would get the opportunity to become shareholders. So perhaps there is a revenue generation opportunity there that I need to consider further.
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Whilst adding a reg fee would not be a problem for any APAT regular, in a time where many local poker rooms are upping reg fees on smaller tournaments, it then removes a facet that differentiates APAT from the competition. The whole feeling/ethos of APAT is "For the player" and not having reg fees is probably the cleanest and best way to advertise/explain this to the general poker playing public. The reg fee won"t stop people from playing, but the APAT message gets lost for me - it just becomes another tournament. If APAT is to grow as a poker brand it really needs as much help as possible.
Same as Glenn, I was thinking of the same poker forum cum site that is no longer in existence. If the contract minefield can be negotiated then I shall remove my nuts from the table and stick the car keys back in the pocket as I think it would be best way to take APAT to the next level.
I echo AOTR with the marketing stuff (I don"t think 3 day events are the answer, holidays required and the bank holiday competition is as strong as it comes). I tell plenty of people about APAT, but with nothing tangible it"s soon forgotten. I know a number of people who would play them, but it needs to be made easy for them! I"d certainly be happy to assist in Southampton (if still living here).
Would APAT consider guaranteeing prize pools at Nationals? Say £8-10k guaranteed depending on capacity. You"ll always reach the figure, but "guaranteed" is a big seller. If I see a £50-100 buy-in on the Hendon Mob database, without further knowledge I"m only going to assume it gets 50 or so runners from experience and probably not bother with it. I"d like to see a select number of events with upped capacities being given a real push in S6 (regardless of the option chosen).
Agreed with majority of points above, but don"t think guarantees are the way to go. If that is to become a USP, then we would not compete with some of our competitors and I"d be worried about creating that comparison.
It"s key that we market effectively and create an even greater sense of theatre and excitement around our events. Our USP lies in the community and giving you guys the best weekend away possible.
We were not at all incentivised to run big field events during the second half of season five for various reasons and that is why we allowed the live event numbers to decrease. It may be a bit cryptic, but sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.
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Would APAT consider guaranteeing prize pools at Nationals? Say £8-10k guaranteed depending on capacity. You"ll always reach the figure, but "guaranteed" is a big seller.
But it"s a con...as you admitted...that"s not "APAT" either.
How is a guarantee a con? It"s a safeguard for players who are willing to travel and show up who might not otherwise do so.
Without wishing to continue this point overmuch...APAT has, to my knowledge, ALWAYS sold out it"s live events...more so (if that"s possible) at the events with seats under the 200 mark.
Advertising a guarantee that you KNOW you"ll never have to pay...that"s a con...at least for an organisation with the ethos such as APAT's.
EDIT...Oops, I see Des has always replied.
BTW, USP standard for Unique Selling Point...in case anyone was wondering.
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Would APAT consider guaranteeing prize pools at Nationals? Say £8-10k guaranteed depending on capacity. You"ll always reach the figure, but "guaranteed" is a big seller.
But it"s a con...as you admitted...that"s not "APAT" either.
How is a guarantee a con? It"s a safeguard for players who are willing to travel and show up who might not otherwise do so.
Without wishing to continue this point overmuch...APAT has, to my knowledge, ALWAYS sold out it"s live events...more so (if that"s possible) at the events with seats under the 200 mark.
Advertising a guarantee that you KNOW you"ll never have to pay...that"s a con...at least for an organisation with the ethos such as APAT's.
I tend to agree with Paulie here. To my knowledge there is only one event that I think we properly ****ed up, and that was the event in Cork mid last year. That aside, we generally have a good degree of control over the numbers we generate and have the ability to sell out every event.
I"d like to be in a position next year where we can host a greater number of bigger events, but let"s see the budget we establish first. That is the key determining factor, given the fantastic support that a large number of players give us.
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Interestingly enough it was the "reg free" aspect that got me and Debjani involved. Not particularly for the money saved but it made me look into the concept hiding behind this offer as it was so different from the norm. What I then saw I liked, I realised the reg free aspect wasn"t a gimmick and I"ve not looked back since. Since then of course reg fees have generally gone up.
If this differentiator hadn"t existed I"d have treated APAT tournaments just like any other tournament and certainly wouldn"t have travelled all the way to Luton in S1 to play my fist APAT.
If reg free is to continue we should make sure that it"s made as obvious as possible perhaps even quoting the savings made against regular 20% small-ball fees. I know it"s always mentioned but perhaps we don"t shout it loud enough.
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If reg free is to continue we should make sure that it"s made as obvious as possible...(snip)... I know it"s always mentioned but perhaps we don"t shout it loud enough.
Fully agree.
Although most people would happily pay your reg fee to have you in the comp...always value there! ;D
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I personally think that the reg free should stay, its a major thing that differentiates APAT from the norm, and is one of the things that appear top of my list during my "APAT is great because" speeches when telling people about the tour.
An optional membership fee which gives certain privileges as Paulie mentioned, whether priority for seats etc is a great idea.
Personally going back to the original 3 options, would it not be possible to set up the APAT poker site for this season, combined with either option 1 or 2, with the aim of letting it grow to the point where it can stand on its own and fund future seasons on its own? No harm in having a 2 or 3 year plan rather than going dave style balls out for this season?
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Personally going back to the original 3 options, would it not be possible to set up the APAT poker site for this season, combined with either option 1 or 2, with the aim of letting it grow to the point where it can stand on its own and fund future seasons on its own? No harm in having a 2 or 3 year plan rather than going dave style balls out for this season?
I think Des would love to do that but sponsors might shy away if APAT was actively encouraging it"s membership to it"s own site.
Not a problem if your sponsor is Dulux...huge problem if it"s Ladbrokes.
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I think Des would love to do that but sponsors might shy away if APAT was actively encouraging it"s membership to it"s own site.
Not a problem if your sponsor is Dulux...huge problem if it"s Ladbrokes.
Not sure how the poker skins revenue streams work, but is it not possible to have an "APAT skin" running on a network where the sponsor is the network itself? Or if the sponsor is another skin somehow share revenue?
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I think Des would love to do that but sponsors might shy away if APAT was actively encouraging it"s membership to it"s own site.
Not a problem if your sponsor is Dulux...huge problem if it"s Ladbrokes.
Not sure how the poker skins revenue streams work, but is it not possible to have an "APAT skin" running on a network where the sponsor is the network itself? Or if the sponsor is another skin somehow share revenue?
If we didn"t feel the numbers would stack up, then I wouldn"t go forward with a proposal to any network. Similarly, to enter a network relationship and send out a signal that we would need some hand holding initially would be a mistake. In this environment we would need a bullet proof proposition to gain a license.
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Is it not possible to go with option 1 with a sponsor that ISN"T a poker site whilst setting up an APAT skin and growing it over this year? Betfair sponsored APAT and their poker site isn"t big at all they are much more known for betting. Are there any betting companies that don"t have a poker site? How about getting a media company to sponsor? Maybe Talksport? Or a newspaper or mag might be up for it.
Whichever way you go now option 3 is the future.
GL
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External sponsors...
Well it is 2012 and they have medals and significant exposure...
We could have a special APAT Olympic event and get sponsorship that way :)
(http://www.i2b-online.com/images/poker/olympic_apat.jpg)
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This is an unusual situation - members asking to be charged a fee and the management resisting. In most activities, the members complain that the fees are too high.
The APAT ethos has always been "Reg Free" but I think it"s clear that this is not sustainable in the current climate.
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If the answer is "No "Live" Reg Fee Ever" then we know what we are looking at. It"s a lovely idea but considering where we are, is it practical?
Where are we? I wasn"t aware of APAT being in a particularly bad condition.
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London Venue ??
Definitely need a London event.
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This is an unusual situation - members asking to be charged a fee and the management resisting. In most activities, the members complain that the fees are too high.
The APAT ethos has always been "Reg Free" but I think it"s clear that this is not sustainable in the current climate.
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If the answer is "No "Live" Reg Fee Ever" then we know what we are looking at. It"s a lovely idea but considering where we are, is it practical?
Where are we? I wasn"t aware of APAT being in a particularly bad condition.
Correct, we"re not. I assume Paulie is referring to the fact that the market is somewhat tougher than it has been previously, which it is.
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Further to the above post by Mark...perhaps this got "involved" with the other idea that I had (which I may come back to depending on the reply)
The APAT ethos has always been "Reg Free" but I think it"s clear that this is not sustainable in the current climate. so I"ll ask it again.
Des....
Is a reg. fee completely out of the question for APAT events? Say 10%...cheaper than most and anything else could be made up from sponsorship / revenue?
If the answer is "No "Live" Reg Fee Ever" then we know what we are looking at. It"s a lovely idea but considering where we are, is it practical?
Never say never of course, but I"m proud of the fact that APAT have effectively paid the registration fee of every player who has ever participated in a live APAT event over five years. That"s an incredible "pro-player" statement to be able to make and I"d personally hate to lose it.
That said, I"ve been considering other ways that we could reward our member base if we go down the route of option 3. For example I could see APAT setting aside a % of net revenues for players - and essentialy you guys would get the opportunity to become shareholders. So perhaps there is a revenue generation opportunity there that I need to consider further.
Further to the above post by Mark...perhaps this got "involved" with the other idea that I had (which I may come back to depending on the reply)
The APAT ethos has always been "Reg Free" but I think it"s clear that this is not sustainable in the current climate. so I"ll ask it again.
Des....
Is a reg. fee completely out of the question for APAT events? Say 10%...cheaper than most and anything else could be made up from sponsorship / revenue?
If the answer is "No "Live" Reg Fee Ever" then we know what we are looking at. It"s a lovely idea but considering where we are, is it practical?
Never say never of course, but I"m proud of the fact that APAT have effectively paid the registration fee of every player who has ever participated in a live APAT event over five years. That"s an incredible "pro-player" statement to be able to make and I"d personally hate to lose it.
That said, I"ve been considering other ways that we could reward our member base if we go down the route of option 3. For example I could see APAT setting aside a % of net revenues for players - and essentialy you guys would get the opportunity to become shareholders. So perhaps there is a revenue generation opportunity there that I need to consider further.
i would like to say a big thank you to des /tighty / leigh and everyone who helped to make s5 a huge success especially the vegas experience (not forgetting curly), I just hope that everything for s6 gets sorted soon so we can all meet up for a good timeand if it is half as good as s5 we should all have a good time
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I hinted at 1st February but he remained tight-lipped.
You and your hints Paulie you big tease :-X
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I hinted at 1st February but he remained tight-lipped.
You and your hints Paulie you big tease :-X
He wouldn"t take the bait....guess we"re back to...ahem...soon. ;D
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Is the 25th & 26th still a possibility?
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Is the 25th & 26th still a possibility?
I know nothing but, of course, it"s a possibility....anything is possible, just don"t book time off yet.
It"s my understanding (which could be in error) that Tighty has everything pretty much ready to go on the venue front (which I do not know) and is just awaiting the word from Des on the sponsorship front.
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With it being 3 weeks away I was just wondering
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With it being 3 weeks away I was just wondering
I believe Des also mentioned the following weekend as a possibility.
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It will either be that weekend or late March. At this point I would have thought March was more likely for out first live event.
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;D
25th & 26th February.. Weekend off work
;D
3rd & 4th March.. Time off work while the Mrs goes to Benidorm for her 40th...
??? Late March...?
24th & 25th.. Weekend off before starting nights, very late in March unavailable as working nights.. :(
Announcement...... SOON
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Same here !
Please any news on season 6
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We are working hard behind the scenes and when we can detail the new season, we will.
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We are working hard behind the scenes and when we can detail the new season, we will.
I"m hoping it includes Vilamoura early next year.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/PaulieDavis/APAT%20Blog/VillamoraCrownPlaza.jpg)
Just saying... ;D
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I"ve been off the circuit for a while, Been chatting to Holdy, Looking forward to making events for season 6!
Shipit!
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We are working hard behind the scenes and when we can detail the new season, we will.
I"m hoping it includes Vilamoura early next year.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/PaulieDavis/APAT%20Blog/VillamoraCrownPlaza.jpg)
Just saying... ;D ;) :D
Stayed in that very hotel last year and it was very nice. The smaller building behind it was a casino
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We are working hard behind the scenes and when we can detail the new season, we will.
I"m hoping it includes Vilamoura early next year.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/PaulieDavis/APAT%20Blog/VillamoraCrownPlaza.jpg)
Just saying... ;D ;) :D
Stayed in that very hotel last year and it was very nice. The smaller building behind it was a casino
Just looks like the IBM factory on the road down to Greenock if you ask me :P
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We are working hard behind the scenes and when we can detail the new season, we will.
I"m hoping it includes Vilamoura early next year.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/PaulieDavis/APAT%20Blog/VillamoraCrownPlaza.jpg)
Just saying... ;D ;) :D
Stayed in that very hotel last year and it was very nice. The smaller building behind it was a casino
Just looks like the IBM factory on the road down to Greenock if you ask me :P
It can"t, "cos it"s not raining!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
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Is it nearly soon yet?
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Is it nearly soon yet?
Can we avoid filling this thread up with this sort of nonsense please? Not targeting you Steve, but anyone who still finds this funny.
More importantly, feedback on the following would be useful.
If we were to run a larger three day event over a non bank holiday weekend, would it be a better option to run Fri to Sun or Sat to Mon?
Ta.
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If we were to run a larger three day event over a non bank holiday weekend, would it be a better option to run Fri to Sun or Sat to Mon?
Fri - Sunday for me....I think.....No, wait, if it was Sat - Mon, I could "socialise" on Friday night.
If I don"t "socialise", the travel might be easier/cheaper on Saturday morning.
Plus, you don"t run up against the Friday night "crowd" in the casino.
On a little reflection I suspect it might depend on:
- The Event Type.
- Location / Distance from home.
- Hotel Rates.
Bl**dy Hell....decisions, decisions.
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are you are talking about two day 1"s and a final day, or a three day comp with a different structure?
I think most would prefer Friday (7pm start and play most of the night, ie you don"t necessarily have to take all friday off) to Sunday than playing a final stages on a Monday.
You"d also get a lot more viewers of a stream or an update or both on Sunday than playing it out on a Monday afternoon.
Personally, I am ambivalent
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I think most would prefer Friday (7pm start and play most of the night, ie you don"t necessarily have to take all friday off) to Sunday than playing a final stages on a Monday.
This for me x
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More importantly, feedback on the following would be useful.
If we were to run a larger three day event over a non bank holiday weekend, would it be a better option to run Fri to Sun or Sat to Mon?
It"s a whole lot easier to get a Friday off work than it is to get a Monday off. And as Tighty suggests, starting the Friday late in the day and playing a late one, would be preferable to taking the whole day off work...
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Friday to Sunday!
Otherwise a lot of people would end up taking Monday off "just in case".
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Friday to Sunday!
Otherwise a lot of people would end up taking Monday off "just in case".
That"s why knowing the event type is important.
If it"s 3 separate comps (perhaps HE, Omaha, 6-Max) on separate days then it doesn"t really matter.
If it"s 2 x "Day 1"s and a Day 2...that"s a whole other thing....and that"s where "just in case applies".
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Friday to Sunday!
Otherwise a lot of people would end up taking Monday off "just in case".
This.
Assuming 2 day 1"s, Tighty"s point (and how DTD run their deep stack) works well - but would throw up the (sadly) inevitable re-entry question. People tend to arrive at APAT events early friday afternoon so could play friday night and socialise on the saturdays.
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We had a 2 day 1's at the first "worlds" that started on a Friday ended on the Sunday which was sold out (2.30 start). I would gladly take a holiday to play an APAT on a Friday or put a sicky in on the Monday if I got that far.
Friday for me
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Fri to Sun :)
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Friday to Sunday!
Otherwise a lot of people would end up taking Monday off "just in case
+1 :)
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Friday to Sunday please
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In my opinion Friday - Sunday would work best, for the reason that if you know you are playing on the Friday or Saturday as your day 1 then this can be planned for in advance. It is not easy to plan for a Monday off when you are only going to actually require it on average 10-20% of the time. Unless of course your Mr. Murray or Mr. Shallis in which case it is a given ;D
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Assuming it"s 2 day 1"s and a final day then deffo Friday-Sunday, but with the proviso that there is a side game on the Saturday afternoon to encourage players into Day 1a. (Omaha please!!!!). Can"t see many playing Day 1a and then having nothing to do Sat. pm.
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Friday to Sundays is best.
Re-entries to be allowed if there"s enough capacity.
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Friday - Sundays gets my vote as well please.
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As long as there is a bar, I"ll attempt to play any day you want.... True story
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hi fri 2 sun sounds gud Ad
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Fri - Sunday IF it transpires to be a two Day One jobbie
No re-entry ... takes away from the apat ethos of being a good deep structured event at an afforadable level IMO. You don"t have to re-enter granted, but if you bust early then you"re probably going to want to re-enter even if you know you shouldn"t really be spending that money set aside (for side event/socialising) for re-entry ;-)
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I would go with the Friday to Sunday. Are we saying this would be relevant for all live events or a one off ?
Other considerations, do you structure the tournament in a way that should deliver a finish at a reasonable time on the Sunday. Otherwise for most if travelling the event will turn into a Friday to Monday for those going deep.
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Not that the third day would make too much difference to me but Friday to Sunday would be preferred.
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are you are talking about two day 1"s and a final day, or a three day comp with a different structure?
I think most would prefer Friday (7pm start and play most of the night, ie you don"t necessarily have to take all friday off) to Sunday than playing a final stages on a Monday.
You"d also get a lot more viewers of a stream or an update or both on Sunday than playing it out on a Monday afternoon.
Personally, I am ambivalent
Exactly this
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Friday to Sunday - as long as play isn"t likely to continue until 2am on Monday morning.
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Fri - Sunday IF it transpires to be a two Day One jobbie
No re-entry ... takes away from the apat ethos of being a good deep structured event at an afforadable level IMO. You don"t have to re-enter granted, but if you bust early then you"re probably going to want to re-enter even if you know you shouldn"t really be spending that money set aside (for side event/socialising) for re-entry ;-)
.... and it takes away the whole tournament freezout angle, and turns it into a rebuy for those playing day 1a..... makes for a completely different dynamic, even for those that aren"t planning to re-enter.
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I don"t think there are any plans to introduce re-entries into APAT events.
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There are zero plans for re-entries.
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Fri- sun would be better IMO. Esp as spoken before, it"s a late start on Friday.
Most are recreational players and it is enough cost to get to the events and overnights if required etc without having to take up annual leave or lose pay on a school day.
Can"t wait whatever it turns out, as I know it would have been thought of planned and decisions made in the very best interests of us all.
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There are zero plans for re-entries.
delighted to hear NO RE-ENTRY
also friday to sunday please
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We are working hard behind the scenes and when we can detail the new season, we will.
I"m hoping it includes Vilamoura early next year.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/PaulieDavis/APAT%20Blog/VillamoraCrownPlaza.jpg)
Just saying... ;D ;) :D
Stayed in that very hotel last year and it was very nice. The smaller building behind it was a casino
Just looks like the IBM factory on the road down to Greenock if you ask me :P
Looks nothing like it now. Theres buildings in that pic. lol
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Oh and Fri-Sun for 3 day event. ;)
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My only request for season 6 is...
15K starting stacks please!!!
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My only request for season 6 is...
15K starting stacks please!!!
This would be awesome!
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My only request for season 6 is...
15K starting stacks please!!!
^^THIS!!
When APAT first started, 10k stack was awesome, and was deeper than anything I"d ever played..... nowadays though, 10k is pretty shallow in comparison to other tourneys... 15k seems to be the new standard, and doesn"t make a massive amount of difference to tournament run-time either (I"m sure I can spew 15k as fast as I can spew 10k)
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Players generally put far too much importance on starting stack
It is the structure that is key
3,000 chips is fine if the structure is graduated enough to allow play at all times
I am not saying a move to 15,000 won"t happen, merely pointing out that structure is key and I am not aware that for any concerted period of any APAT national our structure and 10,000 chips leads to a crapshoot.
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I agree that structure is key rather than starting stack, but UKIPT, GUKPT, DTD deep and now Genting have similar structures to APAT but have starting stacks of 15K, 20K, 15K and 25K respectively.
GUKPT and DTD deep, which are much more established compared to the other 2, also used to have 10K starting stacks.
Time for APAT to make the change as well???
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... and doesn"t make a massive amount of difference to tournament run-time either ...
so what"s the point?
Doesn"t that just suggest that the structure"s altered to speed up the play at certain points to balance out the total tournament time?
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I agree that structure is key rather than starting stack, but UKIPT, GUKPT, DTD deep and now Genting have similar structures to APAT but have starting stacks of 15K, 20K, 15K and 25K respectively.
Yes, and all run over more than one starting day, and more than two playing days
Again, not ruling it out per se, but in isolation (ie if APAT stays at two day events) there is no need
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If this proposal was carried then some part of the structure would have to give to allow for 50% more chips in play.
Is it currently broke comes to mind?
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The WCOAP Main Event ran with a 15k stack in 2011, but stuck to the normal APAT structure (I don"t remember any levels being removed, but I left around level 10) - it afforded far much more play early on, but didn"t lengthen the playing time significantly (if I recall correctly).
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Is it currently broke comes to mind?
I always support this adage..... BUT I thought that thread was partly about Continuous Improvement opportunity? It may not be broke, but that doesn"t mean it can"t be improved....
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Don't know if it's too late in the day for suggestions
How about a TURBO WORLD AMATURE CHAMPIONSHIP. I know the all point of APAT is to have a good strutched tournament at an affordable price, so this would go against this but they are more and more tournaments appearing at the £100 mark so to be different have a turbo series that is the opposite. I'm not saying have £75/£100 buy-ins but around the £30/£40 with the ME still being at £75. It would go something like this
Friday: 6max (7.30)
Saturday ME (2.30, 1 day) + Stud or Razz or Shoot Out (8.00)
Sunday Omaha (2.30) + 3 handed (5.00)
The starting chips and clock and capacity would have to be worked out to fit into a certain time frame. Plus it would depend on APAT staff, venue and dealers but that is the same for all tournaments.
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Is it currently broke comes to mind?
I always support this adage..... BUT I thought that thread was partly about Continuous Improvement opportunity? It may not be broke, but that doesn"t mean it can"t be improved....
But will this actually improve your experience or would it require us to play 14 levels on day 1 instead of 12, while potentially adding a couple of hours to our Sunday night finishing time? Would it result in the tournament becoming more of a chore for our less experienced players or those who also want the weekend to be a social experience?
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The WCOAP Main Event ran with a 15k stack in 2011, but stuck to the normal APAT structure (I don"t remember any levels being removed, but I left around level 10) - it afforded far much more play early on, but didn"t lengthen the playing time significantly (if I recall correctly).
iirc
finish after midnight on the final day.
I think we alighted, through experience, some luck, some skill on a fairly magnificent tournament structure where the only time the average stack is under a lot of pressure is the first level on day two...finals for example play out with loads of play.
I do think that if you make it 15,000, you have to give something from the structure IF players want to be away from a venue before 10pm on the Sunday (or start earlier, where casinos have problems with staff rotas in so doing)
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A 15 k starting stack would be better for players that like to play , but for a lot of apaters who still nit it up and wait for monsters means a 15 k starting stack may make it too late a finish on the sunday. It all depends on which players make final table. I am sure rich knows this because he see`s all the final tables. Although it shouldnt make too much difference towards the end in bigger events , I think APAT could be take longer when people dont call when they are priced in or shove when they should do. I have seen it therefore could easily add too much time to the sunday night. Rich and Leigh would be the most informed people to work this out , I know Leigh definately has seen it because i spoke to him about it on final tables. Also the apat team shouldnt have to be there until a stupid time on sunday night. I know there are laggy players and nit in all tournaments but I believe APAT still has more of the latter than any other tournament. This is not a dig at nits , upto u how u play but still may or may not make it too late a finish , sure the experts in apat tournies structure will know and decide .
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Scouse makes some good points. Albeit the APAT player is more experienced than 2006-07 but they APATs still play tighter for longer than all other events I cover. Not necessarily a bad thing, just how it is
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Give everyone a million chips and start blinds at 2500/5000.
Sorted. ;D
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But will this actually improve your experience or would it require us to play 14 levels on day 1 instead of 12
If the WCOAP ME had to play out two extra levels per day, then I stand corrected. EDIT: Just saw Tighty"s clarification, so stand very corrected now.
Would it result in the tournament becoming more of a chore for our less experienced players or those who also want the weekend to be a social experience?
Not sure about it becoming a chore for less experienced players.... surely it would provide room for even more play early on, and to the "less experienced player", that may intimate increased value for money.
As Rob says above, all the major tours used to play 10k stacks but have moved on to larger stacks. I seem to recall that one of APAT's objectives was to provide a "learning ground" for players to introduce themselves to the tour market, and the 10k deepstack gave that tour tournament structure but at a lower buy in.... Is there not a case that APAT needs to keep up with the changing market if it is to continue to provide the learning ground to the tour events?
Not having a dig at APAT here btw, and will continue to play all the events that I can regardless..... but debate is healthy, right?
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Debate is very healthy and very encouraged.
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(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll215/swinebag22/15K4APAT.jpg)
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No support for the TWAC
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No support for the TWAC
Open to all ideas
the problems I see are
a) It"s against what APAT provides, and is known for....deep structure good clock MTTs. I don"t see what it adds to APAT as an orgainisation, or a player base looking for value for money
b) If you want to hold it alongside National Amateur events, is this in addition to or instead of side events or a cash tour? If you want it to be a weekend in its own right, well something has to give from a national amateur schedule or the budget has to be higher....
c) depending on your answer to b) if its to be run alongside a planned weekend most venues are not going to be able to resource all three, or a turbo/national simultaneously.
I like the idea of new concepts, we"ve done a load..just not sure a turbo is one of those. as unscientific back up to that, I"ve never heard anyone ask for one until now!
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Instead of TWAP.... let"s have a coin flip contest. We could use 2p coins in the main event, £1 coins in the high roller, and £5 coins in the super high roller. ;D ;)
Hope the side events continue this year - I"ve never found anywhere else to play live Omaha, Omaha8, Razz, and Stud.
There are cash games in abundance, so personal preference is in favour of the alternative side events rather than the cash tour.
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..all the major tours used to play 10k stacks but have moved on to larger stacks. I seem to recall that one of APAT's objectives was to provide a "learning ground" for players to introduce themselves to the tour market, and the 10k deepstack gave that tour tournament structure but at a lower buy in.... Is there not a case that APAT needs to keep up with the changing market if it is to continue to provide the learning ground to the tour events?
From my point of view, these other tours have higher buy-ins and have to provide "better value" to justify the extra expenditure. To many, "better value" is often synonymous with "more chips".
We know that this isn"t necessarily the case.
There are cash games in abundance, so personal preference is in favour of the alternative side events rather than the cash tour.
I think, AFAIK, that Des has always made it clear that the Cash Tour was never intended to act as a replacement for the Sunday side events.
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As someone who is relatively new to APAT, I just want to say the starting stacks and structure are spot on. If there is to be an increase in starting stacks, then as others have mentioned, to get to finished at a decent time on the Sunday, you"d have to lose levels. For me, I"d keep it as it is. The current structure creates pressure for the players at the right times, without ever turning into a crapshoot.
I"ve never had the opportunity to play Omaha, Razz and Stud live, and would love the opportunity ( especially as it"s not expensive).
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No support for the TWAC
Open to all ideas
the problems I see are
a) It"s against what APAT provides, and is known for....deep structure good clock MTTs. I don"t see what it adds to APAT as an orgainisation, or a player base looking for value for money
b) If you want to hold it alongside National Amateur events, is this in addition to or instead of side events or a cash tour? If you want it to be a weekend in its own right, well something has to give from a national amateur schedule or the budget has to be higher....
c) depending on your answer to b) if its to be run alongside a planned weekend most venues are not going to be able to resource all three, or a turbo/national simultaneously.
I like the idea of new concepts, we"ve done a load..just not sure a turbo is one of those. as unscientific back up to that, I"ve never heard anyone ask for one until now!
I was thinking of a standalone weekend, just something different. Testing the water rely to see if they was any interest in it
I like to put forward the idea of a shootout for a side event
Instead of TWAP.... let"s have a coin flip contest. We could use 2p coins in the main event, £1 coins in the high roller, and £5 coins in the super high roller. ;D ;)
It's a good job I know you or I could have taken this the wrong way. Just trying to think of new ideas
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It's a good job I know you or I could have taken this the wrong way. Just trying to think of new ideas
Wouldn"t have responded that way if I didn"t know you could take it Wayne ;) you gotta admit though, it has potential merit at the bar late on a Saturday night, particularly with Ger in the game :)
as for new ideas, the WCOAP gives some great value for the mixed game players with HORSE, Stud, and Omaha on the table.... I wonder if we might be able to go a bit further with 2-7TD, or better still an 8-game tourney? (would be tough on the dealers though)
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National Online League announcement to follow before close of play on Wednesday.
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Love the idea of a shootout as a side event
say capped at 50 runners. 10 x 5 tables for the first round. Top 2 from each table qualify and take their chips with them to the final table of 10. Do it
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Love the idea of a shootout as a side event
say capped at 50 runners. 10 x 5 tables for the first round. Top 2 from each table qualify and take their chips with them to the final table of 10. Do it
Ditto
Thing is too...I think you could stick another event on after the initial shootouts have taken place...No?
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Like the shootout side event idea nice one.
Also would like the return of a day 1 dinner break even if no buffet please!!
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Nothing wrong with the structure or 10K starting stack. Seems to work very well to find a winner during a weekend which is what APAT is all about (ie no need to play on a work day).
However, if numbers of entrants continue to drop (as happened last year), then maybe a move to 15K might not lead to early finishes (Cork stands out an as example).
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I"ve seen local tournaments with 50,000 and even 100,000 starting stacks, but it"s meaningless once the blinds take off. It"s all about the structure, innit?
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Nothing wrong with the structure or 10K starting stack. Seems to work very well to find a winner during a weekend which is what APAT is all about (ie no need to play on a work day).
However, if numbers of entrants continue to drop (as happened last year), then maybe a move to 15K might not lead to early finishes (Cork stands out an as example).
I believe Cork was an exception due to various factors Darren.
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me 2p worth /y change something if its not broke.i mean if you broke a val dooniken record would u fix it. /naaaa/but 2 be onest it dont make any difference wat the starting stack is its the strukture y make it any harder for the people that r doing there best for us//just sayn//////////hoo loves ya baby
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o and whats happing on wensday night des
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Players generally put far too much importance on starting stack
It is the structure that is key
3,000 chips is fine if the structure is graduated enough to allow play at all times
I am not saying a move to 15,000 won"t happen, merely pointing out that structure is key and I am not aware that for any concerted period of any APAT national our structure and 10,000 chips leads to a crapshoot.
When I played in the $1,000 event at the WSOP a couple of years ago, we got only 3,000 in chips, but the blinds went 25/25, 25/50, and so on, rising every hour. LOTS of play.
It"s all about the structure.
10k is fine for the APAT events. I turned up over an hour late at Brighton and was gutted to find I had lost, err, 300 chips out of my 10k. There"s plenty of play with the 10k and the current structure.
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No dinner break and long days at DTD because of that 15K starting stack.
The standard structure is spot on for the time we have, including when we have 400+ runners. I don"t recall crapshoot complaints at any APAT event other than the heads-up.
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When I played in the $1,000 event at the WSOP a couple of years ago, we got only 3,000 in chips, but the blinds went 25/25, 25/50, and so on, rising every hour. LOTS of play.
Blatant, "I played in the WSOP" brag imho ;)
Can"t believe you didn"t mention the fact that you cashed Joe.
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I really couldn"t wait any longer and bowing to extreme pressure from my better half, I"ve been forced to book my holidays between 27 July and 11 Aug... I"m desperately hoping I won"t miss anything important in the APAT calendar such as DTD... :(
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National Online League announcement to follow before close of play on Wednesday.
Now this is the kind of news I like.....
Roll on Wednesday... Roll on Wednesday... Roll on Wednesday...
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National Online League announcement to follow before close of play on Wednesday.
Watson, the game"s afoot!
I"m all a-tingle with anticipation!
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Any starting chip changes comes down to simple maths as to whether it"d be beneficial. A 50% increase would lead to the whole tournament taking around 1-2 hours longer (if a tournament with 10k chips finished when the blinds hit x then with 15k chips you"d need to reach blinds of 1.5x to reach the same point in respect of stack depth).
Ideally you need enough time for stack sizes to diverge before the structure puts pressure on those who still have their starting chips. With 10k this is around level 7/8, and with 15k would be around level 9/10.
Whilst the increase would still be beneficial to the overall tournament, and everyone gets a bit more play it probably wouldn"t make a whole lot of difference. I think it would be nice to have >100BBs for an extra level but that"s just down to the kind of player I am!
I wouldn"t mind seeing earlier starts however, regardless of structure if this were possible.
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National Online League announcement to follow before close of play on Wednesday.
is there a game on wensday night
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National Online League announcement to follow before close of play on Wednesday.
is there a game on wensday night
Possibly...and that"s all you"ll get.
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possibly? well can u tell me where it is please/ pretty please
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National Online League announcement to follow before close of play on Wednesday.
is there a game on wensday night
There"s no game Ray. Just confirmation of the format, dates, prizes and sponsor.
That will be followed by a further announcement regarding the Amateur and Online Championships within a week.
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National Online League announcement to follow before close of play on Wednesday.
Watson, the game"s afoot!
I"m all a-tingle with anticipation!
The game is most definitely afoot and I suspect your timbers may well be shivered.
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Partnership with DTD.... On their site homepage they already have us listed as one of their club partners.. Or is that just for WCOAP.. Whatever happens it will be for the best I am sure..
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Is something happening SOON!!!!!!!!
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Is something happening SOON!!!!!!!!
Sigh, even the quiet ones go stir crazy during an APAT February. :)
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It"s that exciting time of year again. The poker player"s equivalent of the kids waiting for Santa to arrive.
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its not crismas yet
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I will admit I come down firmly on a larger starting stack.
Whilst the structure is important, the starting stack is also important as it gives people a lot more play and more chances if things dont go well early on ~ something players travelling for the weekend to play should get imo.
The time that is needed for this extra increase is only on average about 1 hour extra (the blinds go up >50% every two levels). If time really is the only concern, and as I said this is such a minor increase, consider reducing the blinds to 30min when down to last 5 or 4 players ~ I know a couple of tours do this.
I do think leaving the starting stack at 10k is falling behind the opposition, it definitely is a negative when comparing against all the other tourneys that now have 15k, 20k or 25k to start.
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I will admit I come down firmly on a larger starting stack.
Whilst the structure is important, the starting stack is also important as it gives people a lot more play and more chances if things dont go well early on ~ something players travelling for the weekend to play should get imo.
The time that is needed for this extra increase is only on average about 1 hour extra (the blinds go up >50% every two levels). If time really is the only concern, and as I said this is such a minor increase, consider reducing the blinds to 30min when down to last 5 or 4 players ~ I know a couple of tours do this.
I do think leaving the starting stack at 10k is falling behind the opposition, it definitely is a negative when comparing against all the other tourneys that now have 15k, 20k or 25k to start.
So what you"re suggesting is to make APAT tournaments a worse structure just so that they can start with more chips?
Saying you want to start with 15k, 20k, 25k, 100k or 1k is completely irrelevant - it"s the structure that decides how good or not the tournament is. People might like the feeling of having more chips to play with but it"s got nothing to do with how good or bad the tournament is.
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think it would be nice to have >100BBs for an extra level
Don"t reraise with T6 then.
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think it would be nice to have >100BBs for an extra level
Don"t reraise with T6 then.
Hey, it is a fine holding, especially when holding two flush draws.
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Only played 3 events last year including the DTD main with a 15k. The Structure, as in blinds and antes was almost spot on, although adding a level of 500-1k would make it even better. (in the new Genting tour they even have a 250/500 level, but ours is not bad at all for £75 so defently cant argue).
15K for all events would be nice though, more play early on to feel out the competion at the table, better players can reduce the variance (usually because worse players are making open raise 5+x BB) etc. And once we get to end of day 1 it wont make any difference at all to ammount of runners comming back for day 2.
cant understand why people are saying that there is a chance that day two will finish later with a 15k stack. I know that there will be more chips in play, but they will still be shared between the better/more agressive (or more lucky) players and not exactly spread around everyone. So for people to say it will finish later is just lol.
anyway whatever its gonna be somthing to look foward to.
Oh and havent read any discusions about venues, but please put walsall on the tour again.
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Glad my request has triggered a bit of debate.
The APAT structure is spot on and does not need changing. 10k is a good starting stack and 200 BBs allows for plenty of play.
I just feel that, given that all the other tours have 15K (or more) starting stacks (some of which used to have 10k stacks), that it would be falling behind the times to have shallower starting stacks in APAT events.
If time is an issue (though can"t see that it would be too much) then keeping it at 10K would be fine.
It"s certainly something that could be trialled this season.
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Oh and havent read any discusions about venues, but please put walsall on the tour again.
Nooooooo!
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Walsall = updaters nightmare.
Shame because it"s a great location
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It doesn"t really matter how many chips you start with, I can always bust on the first orbit.
Tbh I think a couple of tweaks can be made to improve but nothing needs to be changed wholesale. I can"t remember the exact structure but I think antes could come in earlier, especially if starting stack was to be increased. An increase in stack would benefit I think because of the limited tourneys I have played there is definitely a crapshoot period around 300/600 400/800 etc. Can"t comment beyond that as I have never passed those blind levels in an APAT before.
If nothing changes it won"t be a disaster but there are a couple of possible improvements that could be made to keep up with the general level of improvements in live poker tournaments generally.
Good luck with season 6
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With regards to walsall, i cant see why it was an updaters nightmare. Unless somthing happened that was behind the scenes.
I was thinking more about the location, it is smack bang in the middle of the country (its probably one of the few venues where most people dont have to book hotel for), it is a G casino so it is nice and new and it can comfortably hold 200 runners. When we used to do the click fest 3 years ago it always sold out within minutes.
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With regards to walsall, i cant see why it was an updaters nightmare. Unless somthing happened that was behind the scenes.
I was thinking more about the location, it is smack bang in the middle of the country (its probably one of the few venues where most people dont have to book hotel for), it is a G casino so it is nice and new and it can comfortably hold 200 runners. When we used to do the click fest 3 years ago it always sold out within minutes.
Nothing wrong with Walsall, particularly post refurbishment, the venue. Not sure what the updaters nightmares are.
A few other wrinkles though, but nothing that would prevent us going back EXCEPT I consider DTD and G Coventry superior venues for the Midlands. Then there is the Broadway, very nice too. So we have plenty of choice
lol, of course most people have to book at a hotel if we go to Walsall. Only those within 50 miles of Birmingham might not
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Is the so called "Clickfest" making a comeback this season? I hope it does :)
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Is the so called "Clickfest" making a comeback this season? I hope it does :)
I doubt it (sponsor dependent)....it was, from what I understand, not a terribly cheap or efficient system.
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Is the so called "Clickfest" making a comeback this season? I hope it does :)
I doubt it (sponsor dependent)....it was, from what I understand, not a terribly cheap or efficient system.
The click fest wasn"t the most efficient but kinda added to it all... I remember the days of constantly pressing F5 on the APAT home page waiting for the magicial buy in link to appear at 9pm... having my address / credit card details ready to copy and paste into the following forms, receiving the email telling me I"d pre-registered and then logging onto the forum to see if I"d got in... people posting "9:04" etc and wondering if that was quick enough... happy days.. I miss them.
Reminiscing about days long gone.... I"m finally turning into my dad. FML :(
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I"ve updated at Walsall and it"s perfectly fine - only issue I thought was that for public transport users it can be a bit of a pain to get to.
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So we can certainly assume that Walsall will not be an APAT venue Will.
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Is the so called "Clickfest" making a comeback this season? I hope it does :)
I doubt it (sponsor dependent)....it was, from what I understand, not a terribly cheap or efficient system.
The click fest wasn"t the most efficient but kinda added to it all... I remember the days of constantly pressing F5 on the APAT home page waiting for the magicial buy in link to appear at 9pm... having my address / credit card details ready to copy and paste into the following forms, receiving the email telling me I"d pre-registered and then logging onto the forum to see if I"d got in... people posting "9:04" etc and wondering if that was quick enough... happy days.. I miss them.
Reminiscing about days long gone.... I"m finally turning into my dad. FML :(
Lol, +1
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Ahhhhh Walsall
Such fond memories of Tighty throwing my laptop across the cardroom. (Totally accidental, I may add)
Des, Tighty and I attempt to resuscitate it with little success. We call in IT expert Daniel "Kinboshi" Phillips. He pushes a few buttons, then sighs a bit, then says "No, it"s definitely f*!ked, I"ll be in the bar"
as Ger would say, Great Times.
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Ahhhhh Walsall
Such fond memories of Tighty throwing my laptop across the cardroom. (Totally accidental, I may add)
Des, Tighty and I attempt to resuscitate it with little success. We call in IT expert Daniel "Kinboshi" Phillips. He pushes a few buttons, then sighs a bit, then says "No, it"s definitely f*!ked, I"ll be in the bar"
as Ger would say, Great Times.
It was no reason to leave the updating team though. I have been through 4 laptops in 16 events, and counting.....
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Ahhhhh Walsall
Such fond memories of Tighty throwing my laptop across the cardroom. (Totally accidental, I may add)
Des, Tighty and I attempt to resuscitate it with little success. We call in IT expert Daniel "Kinboshi" Phillips. He pushes a few buttons, then sighs a bit, then says "No, it"s definitely f*!ked, I"ll be in the bar"
as Ger would say, Great Times.
It was no reason to leave the updating team though. I have been through 4 laptops in 16 events, and counting.....
4 laptops? You have to stop letting Ironside near them! Works for me...
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APAT Presents The PokerStars.com National Online League (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=10355.0)
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............ PokerStars.com ...........
woooohooooo
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APAT Presents The PokerStars.com National Online League (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=10355.0)
Ive heard of them they seem to be nice little up and coming poker site.
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APAT Presents The PokerStars.com National Online League (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=10355.0)
Great news. Makes complete sense.
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APAT Presents The PokerStars.com National Online League (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=10355.0)
Great news. Makes complete sense.
+1 and as many people already have an account it obviates the need to sign up to yet another site. Will Stars be sponsoring the Live Tour as well ?
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Will Stars be sponsoring the Live Tour as well ?
We"re going to have to wait for that one.
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APAT Presents The PokerStars.com National Online League (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=10355.0)
Great news. Makes complete sense.
+1 and as many people already have an account it obviates the need to sign up to yet another site. Will Stars be sponsoring the Live Tour as well ?
Loving the use of the word obviate. Nice work sir.
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Sorry for my "updaters nightmare" comment.
My memory must be failing me. Have been put right by the powers that be.
That only leaves.... Walsall FTW!!
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Exactly my thinking. The fact that it used to sell out very fast on the clickfest, and i can remember lots of dissapointed people starting threads in the seat exchange, more so than any other venue iirc.
But as tighty said before. Coventry and DTD rep the midlands so fair enough
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Loving the use of the word obviate. Nice work sir.
;)
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Exactly my thinking. The fact that it used to sell out very fast on the clickfest, and i can remember lots of dissapointed people starting threads in the seat exchange, more so than any other venue iirc.
I wouldn"t exaggerate this. Redfern Walsall in 2009 was pre UKIPT, pre GPS, pre lots of things....the UK Poker landscape was very different. People had far less choice
I don"t think in this competitve environment that any venue we chose would see an instant sell out via click fest. We should sell out, but it will be gradual
Clickfests were also administratively complex, expensive in merchanting charges and I would think we are highly unlikely to see them return
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Exactly my thinking. The fact that it used to sell out very fast on the clickfest, and i can remember lots of dissapointed people starting threads in the seat exchange, more so than any other venue iirc.
Redfern Walsall
Say what now?
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Exactly my thinking. The fact that it used to sell out very fast on the clickfest, and i can remember lots of dissapointed people starting threads in the seat exchange, more so than any other venue iirc.
Redfern Walsall
Say what now?
Winner and venue Feb 09
Offless Walsall was Nov 07
We"ve been twice
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Exactly my thinking. The fact that it used to sell out very fast on the clickfest, and i can remember lots of dissapointed people starting threads in the seat exchange, more so than any other venue iirc.
Redfern Walsall
Say what now?
Winner and venue Feb 09
Offless Walsall was Nov 07
We"ve been twice
Oh...I see...I remember "07...I came 3rd, my best ever spot.
Don"t remember "09...I may have been in Vegas...I"m gonna have to look that one up.
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Exactly my thinking. The fact that it used to sell out very fast on the clickfest, and i can remember lots of dissapointed people starting threads in the seat exchange, more so than any other venue iirc.
Redfern Walsall
Say what now?
Winner and venue Feb 09
Offless Walsall was Nov 07
We"ve been twice
Oh...I see...I remember "07...I came 3rd, my best ever spot.
Don"t remember "09...I may have been in Vegas...I"m gonna have to look that one up.
Scene of the Running Man. Legendary. And the no"e" alchohol incident. And Scouse"s outburst. We"ve not had our finest hour in Walsall it has to be said.
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Exactly my thinking. The fact that it used to sell out very fast on the clickfest, and i can remember lots of dissapointed people starting threads in the seat exchange, more so than any other venue iirc.
Redfern Walsall
Say what now?
Winner and venue Feb 09
Offless Walsall was Nov 07
We"ve been twice
Oh...I see...I remember "07...I came 3rd, my best ever spot.
Don"t remember "09...I may have been in Vegas...I"m gonna have to look that one up.
Scene of the Running Man. Legendary. And the no"e" alchohol incident. And Scouse"s outburst. We"ve not had our finest hour in Walsall it has to be said.
Walsall 2007. Still have nightmares about it. I have nearly 50% of the chips in play going into the FT, and i manage to finish 4th. Some fish called Offless wins it. What"s he ever done since then..
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Walsall 2007. Still have nightmares about it. I have nearly 50% of the chips in play going into the FT, and i manage to finish 4th. Some fish called Offless wins it. What"s he ever done since then..
Frack me....that was you!?
From what I can recall, through the mists of history and alcohol induced amnesia, you seemed determined to take everyone out which led to some...erm...rather loose calls which never worked out for you.
Or I could be thinking of someone else. I"m gonna have to find my old blog and look to see what, of anything, I said. I suspect, if I"m recalling correctly, I wasn"t complimentary.
EDIT:
FT..
Darren Shallis 944,000
Rich Offless 271,500
Andrew Tracey 271,000
Neil Walsh 142,000
Dan Bradbury 109,500
Brendan Duffy 92,000
Mike Young 90,000
Alan Armitage 82,000
Paul Davis 60,500
Once we make the FT, I"m really short but double up twice in a couple of hands thanks to AA and AK in good position. Then it"s a grind. One guy had 50% of the chips in play and was really the elephant at the table..however, he started donking them off trying to take people out.
Sorry Darren!
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Scouse outburst never
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BUMP
I don"t know... anyone would think that the announcement of some team event lead to people losing interest in this?
;D ;D
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Yes, will be adding some further discussion points around this prior to an announcement later in the week / weekend.
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please dont think im stupid but is it 888 to buy into a season 6 event or pokerstars xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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please dont think im stupid but is it 888 to buy into a season 6 event or pokerstars xxxxxxxxxxxxx
It hasn"t been announced for the season six live events yet Rita. Later this week you should know a little more. It"s PokerStars for the online league.
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thanks for that des will register for stars xx
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thanks for that des will register for stars xx
click the banner! ;)
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As APAT prepare to annouce further season six details towards the end of this week, there are still a few decisions that we have yet to finalise. I"m going to share these with you as they are very important and your feedback could tip the balance one way or another.
1) Registration Fee
Whether to add a registration fee is the single biggest decision facing APAT at the moment.
APAT has paid the registration fee of every player who has played a live Championship event with us over the past five years and I said earlier in this thread, that"s something that I"m very proud of. However, the poker market is going through a very challenging time right now. There is also a wealth of live options available to poker budget holders, who can often acquire players more competitively through google search campaigns and signup offers.
As the owner of the APAT budget, I found myself in the strange position last year of wanting to run smaller tournaments later in the season to ensure we were able to make our budget work as hard as we could. This is a conflicting position, because in requiring smaller number tournaments, we end up not promoting the events to our membership as a whole and clearly that"s a viscious circle we need to get out of.
The addition of a 10% registration fee - which would go in its entirity to the venue to cover their costs - would enable us to promote our events hard again, and I feel that it is essential that we get back in growth mode.
What do you guys think, because if we go ahead with a reg fee, ultimately it"s going to cost you money when you play?
2) Scheduling
For the past two seasons in particular, APAT has run a National Live event every month. In my opinion it"s too much.
I think it must be challenging for so many of our members to be able to travel and play on a monthly basis and similarly it is difficult to effectively promote as there is too much going to between the live events, online championship events, online league, not to mention satellites and direct buy in events.
My view is that we should go to a Festival style weekend once every two months. That gives us more time to run satellites and promote the events hard. Over the festival weekend, I can see us having the Online Championship event on the Thursday night, a member get together on the Friday night, the main event over Saturday and Sunday, a live event on Saturday night, a live event on Sunday afternoon and a one table Cash Tour event over the weekend also.
3) Winners packages
We"ve offered live professional event entries to all of our winners for the past five years. An idea that we are considering is to offer the winner of every live and online event this year a World Championship of Amateur Poker passport, offering the main event and three side event entries. Although the value of this prize may be a little less than a Genting entry for example, it feels like a great idea to me to have every Amateur and Online Champion together at the WCOAP, where we can also add the Awards night, and create something really huge. What do you guys think?
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I for one dont have a problem with reg fees,,especially if it helps apat to grow,,,also your views on the schedule seem to make perfect sense,,,i have always liked however the added value of a gukpt or ukipt seat for tournament winners,,its nice to then follow the apat players in these events and see how they do at the next level of poker !!
Looking forward to season 6 whatever is decided,,,keep up the good work !!!
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As APAT prepare to annouce further season six details towards the end of this week, there are still a few decisions that we have yet to finalise. I"m going to share these with you as they are very important and your feedback could tip the balance one way or another.
1) Registration Fee
Whether to add a registration fee is the single biggest decision facing APAT at the moment.
APAT has paid the registration fee of every player who has played a live Championship event with us over the past five years and I said earlier in this thread, that"s something that I"m very proud of. However, the poker market is going through a very challenging time right now. There is also a wealth of live options available to poker budget holders, who can often acquire players more competitively through google search campaigns and signup offers.
As the owner of the APAT budget, I found myself in the strange position last year of wanting to run smaller tournaments later in the season to ensure we were able to make our budget work as hard as we could. This is a conflicting position, because in requiring smaller number tournaments, we end up not promoting the events to our membership as a whole and clearly that"s a viscious circle we need to get out of.
The addition of a 10% registration fee - which would go in its entirity to the venue to cover their costs - would enable us to promote our events hard again, and I feel that it is essential that we get back in growth mode.
What do you guys think, because if we go ahead with a reg fee, ultimately it"s going to cost you money when you play?
2) Scheduling
For the past two seasons in particular, APAT has run a National Live event every month. In my opinion it"s too much.
I think it must be challenging for so many of our members to be able to travel and play on a monthly basis and similarly it is difficult to effectively promote as there is too much going to between the live events, online championship events, online league, not to mention satellites and direct buy in events.
My view is that we should go to a Festival style weekend once every two months. That gives us more time to run satellites and promote the events hard. Over the festival weekend, I can see us having the Online Championship event on the Thursday night, a member get together on the Friday night, the main event over Saturday and Sunday, a live event on Saturday night, a live event on Sunday afternoon and a one table Cash Tour event over the weekend also.
3) Winners packages
We"ve offered live professional event entries to all of our winners for the past five years. An idea that we are considering is to offer the winner of every live and online event this year a World Championship of Amateur Poker passport, offering the main event and three side event entries. Although the value of this prize may be a little less than a Genting entry for example, it feels like a great idea to me to have every Amateur and Online Champion together at the WCOAP, where we can also add the Awards night, and create something really huge. What do you guys think?
IMHO everything here makes perfect sense.
The market has changed, lets go with it (might like to consider the 15k starting stack also). Even with 10% juice, it"s still a very hard product to beat.
Bi-monthly Live events will hopefully promote more runners and more competition.
Passports are very worthy prize in their own right.
All in all, excellent.
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A quick response before I cogitate further.
I don"t have a problem with a 10% reg. fee. I know it would be a real heart-breaker for you to have to implement this but in the current market (viz. sponsorship &/or competition) I don"t see any real alternative.
On the schedule side, I"d have to say that while I think there are, perhaps, too many events over a 12 month period, I think that just 6 weekends (and that"s what it basically breaks down to) is not enough...for me.
APAT has a wonderful product and whilst I can foresee that restricting the number of events will drive up the demand for seats I don"t see that there is any capacity to increase the number of available places at the venues of which I am aware...that will lead to people (at least it seems to me) being disappointed in not getting seats and losing interest.
A festival event sounds great but in practice I think the majority of the membership will bail on anything other than Saturday and, perhaps, Sunday.
You know me, I"ll turn up to the opening of an envelope and a paring down of the schedule isn"t automatically bad (Pub Poker Champs anyone?) but I think 6 event schedule is a cut to far.
I"ll have to look and see what my "ideal minimum" would be.
On the added value, I"ve always treated this a the cherry on top so anything is good with me. The only "problem" I see with the WCOAP passport idea is that you won"t get 6 events in before the WCOAP. Presumably, anything won after the WCOAP would be for the next year?
More later
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A quick response before I cogitate further.
I don"t have a problem with a 10% reg. fee. I know it would be a real heart-breaker for you to have to implement this but in the current market (viz. sponsorship &/or competition) I don"t see any real alternative.
On the schedule side, I"d have to say that while I think there are, perhaps, too many events over a 12 month period, I think that just 6 weekends (and that"s what it basically breaks down to) is not enough...for me.
APAT has a wonderful product and whilst I can foresee that restricting the number of events will drive up the demand for seats I don"t see that there is any capacity to increase the number of available places at the venues of which I am aware...that will lead to people (at least it seems to me) being disappointed in not getting seats and losing interest.
A festival event sounds great but in practice I think the majority of the membership will bail on anything other than Saturday and, perhaps, Sunday.
You know me, I"ll turn up to the opening of an envelope and a paring down of the schedule isn"t automatically bad (Pub Poker Champs anyone?) but I think 6 event schedule is a cut to far.
I"ll have to look and see what my "ideal minimum" would be.
On the added value, I"ve always treated this a the cherry on top so anything is good with me. The only "problem" I see with the WCOAP passport idea is that you won"t get 6 events in before the WCOAP. Presumably, anything won after the WCOAP would be for the next year?
More later
There is additional capacity out there compared to what we utilised in season five. Look at Brighton for example, where we could have had an additional couple of tables.
There is a significant clash with a competing poker tournament in the August bank holiday weekend, so I"m contemplating adding a 4 day (therefore we would miss out all of the day 1 activity elsewhere) ECOAP festival at that time, with the WCOAP moving to the end of the season.
Two visits to DTD would also increase capacity considerably also.
All still a work in progress....
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Reg fee.. like most I feel will say, go for it. If it helps APAT continue and grow even better.
I personally find it tough to play every 4 weeks, but whatever APAT decides go for it!
Added value to the WCOAP is a cracking idea and I love the thought!
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I"m surprised we"ve got away with no reg fees for so long.
As for the scheduling, not everyone plays every event. There were 11 events in season 5, three of which were the Home Championships, Pub Teams, Forum Teams - if we go to six events will those three be scrapped as they were not strictly "open" to all ?
Re the prizes, I"d like to see them remain as they are. What would happen if a winner couldn"t attend the WCOAP ?
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I have no issue with a reg fee, though you do lose the headline "no-reg fee" from APAT. Depends how important that is - however if it"s at the expense of growth then I think almost everyone would be behind a reg fee. Doesn"t have to be 10%, say £75+5. That"s obviously cheap and would compare well vs other offerings.
I"d agree with Paulie that six events is a little on the low side - not much more than that would be perfect though. I strongly believe APAT should champion itself and especially the WCOAP - if this can be extended to (fewer) Nationals then I"m all for that too. English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Worlds, Forum and International Team events, plus one European event (is it possible APAT could try and build a new user base in one European country and focus on that?). 8 or 9 would seem a happy medium.
Packages to the WCOAP would be nice, but you are then almost forcing people to take time off work and perhaps play a game they"re not familiar with - I"d personally prefer a GPS or a UKIPT (but that"s probably because I"d buy into the Worlds anyway). Perhaps a condition of the added value is that said winner provides APAT with a report of the trip. Obviously can"t police it, but a nice article detailing person x"s bigger buy in experience on the front page would be good.
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Reg fee fine
Live events, don"t lose the team events they"re great, once a month was never gonna work for me, but the more events the more chance I had of playing! I agree that just 6 per year is a little on the low side, maybe fo for 8 or 9.
Prizes - as they are please, the chance to play in a big buy in event is a great incentive to most of us budget players.
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Rather than this important question be buried down on page 38 of a perhaps tired (to some people) thread I think you should start a new thread along the lines of "important last minute decisions being considered....feedback required" or something snappier!!
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If cuts have to be made I personally would rather it benefits more and come off the added winners prize ( eg WCOAP seats instead of GUKPT) rather than introduce a reg fee, but I"m not too fussed ~ I think only those who know the total financial picture can make this decision.
Im with Mikeyboy and figure the more events the greater chance of playing. Get big venues toward the center of the country and you will always sell out, nothing against Plymouth/Aberdeen etc but the more remote the less chance of people travelling that far for a £75 game.
The WCOAP is a great event and it would be a gamble to move or add another, but if you think it can be pulled off then go for it ~ Could be great !
Team events are fun, bring in new members to our live games, so please keep these but dont make them exclusive.
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My thoughts on this:
Reg Fee - It"s all down to personal views and circumstances but the addition of a Reg Fee wouldn"t stop me playing at an APAT event. Reg Free may be APAT's USP but what is that USP achieving?
Scheduling - I can see where you are coming from but 6 events really isn"t enough especially if 6 includes The Irish, Scottish & Team events as it"s really a hardcore that travel (particularly to the Irish) and not everyone can play the team event. A lot of previous posters seem to be landing on 9 and that feels about right; I"d like to see a 6-weekly scheduling including (Random order) English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, UK, Euro, WCOAP, Team +1 other.
Would the Festival idea really take off? It depends what the Friday get together entails. If it"s a "special" tourney at the casino on Friday night with a bit of added value, then maybe? Seats in events the following day could be added to the top "x" finishers. If you have already bought in, as most will have, then you at least you will be free-rollin" plus any cash you win in the tourney. It would add and extra impetus should events sell out also.
To get the Festival feel, please vary the Sunday sides whenever possible - i.e. not always PLO
I personally do not like the "online Thursday"s" idea. People committing their weekends are unlikely to want to give up Thursday nights as well. I like the Online Championships being on weekends as they currently are.
Added Value is the cherry on top - not a reason to play APAT but a bonus. Although I would never have played a GUKPT so far were it not for APAT.
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Rather than this important question be buried down on page 38 of a perhaps tired (to some people) thread I think you should start a new thread along the lines of "important last minute decisions being considered....feedback required" or something snappier!!
It"s hardly buried Andy - Surely those who care enough to have a strong opinion are monitoring the thread for new posts ???
..... as you & I have clearly done in the last few minutes ;)
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My thoughts on this:
Reg Fee - It"s all down to personal views and circumstances but the addition of a Reg Fee would stop me playing at an APAT event. Reg Free may be APAT's USP but what is that USP achieving?
You mean wouldn"t right?
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Rather than this important question be buried down on page 38 of a perhaps tired (to some people) thread I think you should start a new thread along the lines of "important last minute decisions being considered....feedback required" or something snappier!!
It"s hardly buried Andy - Surely those who care enough to have a strong opinion are monitoring the thread for new posts ???
..... as you & I have clearly done in the last few minutes ;)
Actually I nearly never read it. I thought everything that could be suggested about season 6 had been said already. Hence my suggestion.
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My thoughts on this:
Reg Fee - It"s all down to personal views and circumstances but the addition of a Reg Fee would stop me playing at an APAT event. Reg Free may be APAT's USP but what is that USP achieving?
You mean wouldn"t right?
Yes I do :-[ (that"s the embarrassed smiley btw)
Will edit my post
ty
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Reg fee - no problem
Schedule - No problem - go with the flow
Added Value - I did laugh at the absurdity of this being a factor in my case ;D
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Actually I nearly never read it. I thought everything that could be suggested about season 6 had been said already. Hence my suggestion.
Soooooo.... how did you come to read it..... if you read it...... on that thread you don"t read ??? ???
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Can I make other plans for this weekend? ;D
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Actually I nearly never read it. I thought everything that could be suggested about season 6 had been said already. Hence my suggestion.
Soooooo.... how did you come to read it..... if you read it...... on that thread you don"t read ??? ???
Sigh. The house is on fire.
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Can I make other plans for this weekend? ;D
What type of gun do you have there Andy? ;)
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Can I make other plans for this weekend? ;D
What type of gun do you have there Andy? ;)
Water pistol. You"ll be fine mate :)
-
As APAT prepare to annouce further season six details towards the end of this week, there are still a few decisions that we have yet to finalise. I"m going to share these with you as they are very important and your feedback could tip the balance one way or another.
1) Registration Fee
Whether to add a registration fee is the single biggest decision facing APAT at the moment.
APAT has paid the registration fee of every player who has played a live Championship event with us over the past five years and I said earlier in this thread, that"s something that I"m very proud of. However, the poker market is going through a very challenging time right now. There is also a wealth of live options available to poker budget holders, who can often acquire players more competitively through google search campaigns and signup offers.
As the owner of the APAT budget, I found myself in the strange position last year of wanting to run smaller tournaments later in the season to ensure we were able to make our budget work as hard as we could. This is a conflicting position, because in requiring smaller number tournaments, we end up not promoting the events to our membership as a whole and clearly that"s a viscious circle we need to get out of.
The addition of a 10% registration fee - which would go in its entirity to the venue to cover their costs - would enable us to promote our events hard again, and I feel that it is essential that we get back in growth mode.
What do you guys think, because if we go ahead with a reg fee, ultimately it"s going to cost you money when you play?
2) Scheduling
For the past two seasons in particular, APAT has run a National Live event every month. In my opinion it"s too much.
I think it must be challenging for so many of our members to be able to travel and play on a monthly basis and similarly it is difficult to effectively promote as there is too much going to between the live events, online championship events, online league, not to mention satellites and direct buy in events.
My view is that we should go to a Festival style weekend once every two months. That gives us more time to run satellites and promote the events hard. Over the festival weekend, I can see us having the Online Championship event on the Thursday night, a member get together on the Friday night, the main event over Saturday and Sunday, a live event on Saturday night, a live event on Sunday afternoon and a one table Cash Tour event over the weekend also.
3) Winners packages
We"ve offered live professional event entries to all of our winners for the past five years. An idea that we are considering is to offer the winner of every live and online event this year a World Championship of Amateur Poker passport, offering the main event and three side event entries. Although the value of this prize may be a little less than a Genting entry for example, it feels like a great idea to me to have every Amateur and Online Champion together at the WCOAP, where we can also add the Awards night, and create something really huge. What do you guys think?
IMHO everything here makes perfect sense.
The market has changed, lets go with it (might like to consider the 15k starting stack also). Even with 10% juice, it"s still a very hard product to beat.
Bi-monthly Live events will hopefully promote more runners and more competition.
Passports are very worthy prize in their own right.
All in all, excellent.
+ 1 Although I"d like to keep the format (starting stack etc) as it is, it"s one of the things that make APAT what it is.
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Can I make other plans for this weekend? ;D
What type of gun do you have there Andy? ;)
Water pistol. You"ll be fine mate :)
Short barrel? ;)
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Can I make other plans for this weekend? ;D
What type of gun do you have there Andy? ;)
Water pistol. You"ll be fine mate :)
Short barrel? ;)
That fires blanks? ;D
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Can I make other plans for this weekend? ;D
What type of gun do you have there Andy? ;)
Water pistol. You"ll be fine mate :)
Short barrel? ;)
errrr :(
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It is likely that the opening weekend of season 6 will be either Feb 25th & 26th or Mar 31st & Apr 1st. Discussions are ongoing so don"t shoot us if things change please. But I"m using the Feb dates for my planning purposes atm.
Can I make other plans for this weekend? ;D
I already have...
Doing A National Pool Plant Operators Certificate - Three day course designed for supervisors and managers who are responsible for the safe operation of swimming pools, providing the knowledge required to maintain pool plant and equipment. For staff wishing to progress within the industry, it also provides core knowledge, including pool water testing, the chemistry and treatment of pool water, and current best practices.
Exciting Stuff :-\
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Reg Fees: Was I alone in being naive enough to believe that the venues didn"t charge as they knew there was money to be paid over at the bar, food and house games (DTD excepted). I didn"t realise that it was coming out of APAT's pocket. I still feel that the lack of reg fee was a great move forward and it would be a shame to lose this.
Schedule: Monthly can be a bit hectic, I could never have made that many. Every two months would make each comp more valuable.
Online/Live: I am not privy to the negotiatons obviously but feel the split of sponsors would be likely to cause problems. A major chain of venues would like APAT presence more if they were also playing on their online site as well. I think perhaps Stars have been lucky to cream the best part of the deal this time.
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As APAT prepare to annouce further season six details towards the end of this week, there are still a few decisions that we have yet to finalise. I"m going to share these with you as they are very important and your feedback could tip the balance one way or another.
1) Registration Fee
Whether to add a registration fee is the single biggest decision facing APAT at the moment.
APAT has paid the registration fee of every player who has played a live Championship event with us over the past five years and I said earlier in this thread, that"s something that I"m very proud of. However, the poker market is going through a very challenging time right now. There is also a wealth of live options available to poker budget holders, who can often acquire players more competitively through google search campaigns and signup offers.
As the owner of the APAT budget, I found myself in the strange position last year of wanting to run smaller tournaments later in the season to ensure we were able to make our budget work as hard as we could. This is a conflicting position, because in requiring smaller number tournaments, we end up not promoting the events to our membership as a whole and clearly that"s a viscious circle we need to get out of.
The addition of a 10% registration fee - which would go in its entirity to the venue to cover their costs - would enable us to promote our events hard again, and I feel that it is essential that we get back in growth mode.
What do you guys think, because if we go ahead with a reg fee, ultimately it"s going to cost you money when you play?
2) Scheduling
For the past two seasons in particular, APAT has run a National Live event every month. In my opinion it"s too much.
I think it must be challenging for so many of our members to be able to travel and play on a monthly basis and similarly it is difficult to effectively promote as there is too much going to between the live events, online championship events, online league, not to mention satellites and direct buy in events.
My view is that we should go to a Festival style weekend once every two months. That gives us more time to run satellites and promote the events hard. Over the festival weekend, I can see us having the Online Championship event on the Thursday night, a member get together on the Friday night, the main event over Saturday and Sunday, a live event on Saturday night, a live event on Sunday afternoon and a one table Cash Tour event over the weekend also.
3) Winners packages
We"ve offered live professional event entries to all of our winners for the past five years. An idea that we are considering is to offer the winner of every live and online event this year a World Championship of Amateur Poker passport, offering the main event and three side event entries. Although the value of this prize may be a little less than a Genting entry for example, it feels like a great idea to me to have every Amateur and Online Champion together at the WCOAP, where we can also add the Awards night, and create something really huge. ...
I think points 1 and 2 go together well.
An increase in the cost of going to each APAT event with a decrease of how many APAT events there are to go to.
I don"t think it necessarily has to be slashed to every other month but if the total were anything between 6 and 9 it would work.
In a way I like the idea of the online tournament kicking off any festival weekend - but, like others I"m not sure a lot of people are going to want it on top of going away for the weekend. And I think the online tournaments are a nice way to fill in the gaps between the live tournaments anyway. So all in all I think they"d be better in the off months rather than at the festival weekends.
I don"t think the WCOAP passport should completely replace the added value big tournament entry - I think it would be a good addition to the range of added value prizes though.
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Reg fee: adding one seems fine to me. If the buy-in is still £75, seems better to make it £75+5 rather than £82.50. Simpler, and the players still get a little bit of value.
Schedule: six or eight events sounds about right. Like the idea of the mini festival as well.
Added value: The idea of UKIPT/GSP/GUKPT seats is far more appealing to me than a WCOAP passport, I think it"s a much better selling point to those unfamiliar with APAT as well. Plus the WCOAP passport really restricts winners to having to play the WCOAP. How about a WCOAP main event seat and a GSP seat? :)
PS: like the idea of two visits to Dee Tee Dee, full schedule of side-events at both please.
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Reg fee is fine if needed to be added. If this fee goes to the casino as a whole currently what would APAT do with the "extra" available funds out of the budget?
More/better advertising? Fine, but at the same time we are having/ looking to reduce the number if live events!? Yet seeking even more people.
Not suggestion that isn"t a good idea just stating thoughts.
Live events- understand the scene is getting crowded, but 6 events is very low.
Added value- prefer the step into a higher buyin tournament, I think still the majority play NL when playing live so added stud/Omaha, would feel, to, me "wasted".
Can"t wait though....
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My thoughts on this:
Reg Fee - It"s all down to personal views and circumstances but the addition of a Reg Fee wouldn"t stop me playing at an APAT event. Reg Free may be APAT's USP but what is that USP achieving?
The Free Registration was APAT's USP (And it still is) But the product APAT promoted has flourished since it was established in 2006. APAT has a 20,000 strong memebership and with an added registration fee i can evision it as a start to a bright future for APAT and the tour moving onto bigger and better things in the near future.
I"m all for Reg Fee"s i see no problem with them if they were to appear in season 6. For the amateur events i could see £75+£5 working and then 10% for the events that cost £100+ for example the WCOAP and Pro-Am events?
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My views:
Reg fees: No problem £7.50 still makes the events good value
Scheduling: I understand the need to have less than one an month, but would suggest that 6 a year is a little too few. Perhaps 1 every 6 weeks is doable?
Added value: My issue with this, is the restriction of when it can be used. At the announcement of each season, I know immediately which events I can and can"t attend. If the WCOAP was one of those I can"t, I have no added value to play for, so if I won an event ;D .......
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Reg Fee: Bang goes the USP! But was always inevitable. (Paulie already offered to pay my reg fees earlier in this thread so no issues with me ;D)
Scheduling: Depends on the schedule. Could be a long wait for some if you venture from the mainland too often.
Added Value: Anything is great. Just don"t tell Scouse ;) Prefer non APAT events tbh. WCOAP seems a limited choice.
Don"t like the idea of online national on a Thursday night.
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Reg fee = no problem
Scheduling = 6 fine if need be, but 8/9 would be preferable
Added Value = always a bonus, whatever it is.
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Reg fee - Not a problem at £5 or 10% (and / or optional membership fee for APAT incentives)
Schedule - Every 6 weeks sounds perfect and would mean more beer money as APAT's generally fall just before pay day :)
Added Value - Would prefer UKIPT/GSP/GUKPT seat, but as it won"t affect me anyway will go with the flow
Festival - Do like the idea of online National for Thursday and making it a full weekend
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Reg fee is fine if needed to be added. If this fee goes to the casino as a whole currently what would APAT do with the "extra" available funds out of the budget?
More/better advertising? Fine, but at the same time we are having/ looking to reduce the number if live events!? Yet seeking even more people.
Not suggestion that isn"t a good idea just stating thoughts.
Live events- understand the scene is getting crowded, but 6 events is very low.
Added value- prefer the step into a higher buyin tournament, I think still the majority play NL when playing live so added stud/Omaha, would feel, to, me "wasted".
Can"t wait though....
We will go with a series of different partners in 2012 which will give us the freedom to amend the schedule as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reg fee will essentially enable us to add more events, so I would see us increasing from 6 to 8 or 9 as seems to be the popular request at the moment.
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Reg Fees: Was I alone in being naive enough to believe that the venues didn"t charge as they knew there was money to be paid over at the bar, food and house games (DTD excepted). I didn"t realise that it was coming out of APAT's pocket. I still feel that the lack of reg fee was a great move forward and it would be a shame to lose this.
Schedule: Monthly can be a bit hectic, I could never have made that many. Every two months would make each comp more valuable.
Online/Live: I am not privy to the negotiatons obviously but feel the split of sponsors would be likely to cause problems. A major chain of venues would like APAT presence more if they were also playing on their online site as well. I think perhaps Stars have been lucky to cream the best part of the deal this time.
You would think so with regards the casino chains, but unfortunately it isn"t as straight forward as it has been over the past few years - and of course it"s not too much of a challenge to set up your own tour and not risk losing your traffic to a third party like APAT.
PokerStars on the other hand was a strategic target for APAT, and a very effective one at that.
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Reg Fee: Bang goes the USP! But was always inevitable.
Don"t like the idea of online national on a Thursday night.
I think Registration Fees are always inevitable if they weren"t to be introduced this year, i"m sure they would be happening "sooon" (season 7/8)
As for the online national i agree, keep them on a Saturday night as long as it doesn"t interfere with a Villa home game ;)
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Reg fee = no problem
Scheduling = 6 fine if need be, but 8/9 would be preferable
Added Value = always a bonus, whatever it is.
+1
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Reg fee is fine if needed to be added. If this fee goes to the casino as a whole currently what would APAT do with the "extra" available funds out of the budget?
More/better advertising? Fine, but at the same time we are having/ looking to reduce the number if live events!? Yet seeking even more people.
Not suggestion that isn"t a good idea just stating thoughts.
Live events- understand the scene is getting crowded, but 6 events is very low.
Added value- prefer the step into a higher buyin tournament, I think still the majority play NL when playing live so added stud/Omaha, would feel, to, me "wasted".
Can"t wait though....
We will go with a series of different partners in 2012 which will give us the freedom to amend the schedule as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reg fee will essentially enable us to add more events, so I would see us increasing from 6 to 8 or 9 as seems to be the popular request at the moment.
If it adds to potential tournaments available then I would be even more in favour of the reg fee.
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No probs with reg fees, and love the idea of a festival weekend combining online and live.
there was a remote danger that the APAT concept may have become tired if it continued as was - these options sound like a great refresh Des.
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Reg fee - no problem
Schedule - as i dont play all its not a problem for me might even be better for me , And i will still support APAT when i can as its allways a great weekend well run and great bunch of people even if there is far 2 many welsh people there. And after speaking to Tighty about APAT 1 day coming to Yorkshire he did explain to me the difficulty they have had at getting a venue that will stage a APAT event so i will refrain my usual request for APAT to come to YORKSHIRE ;)
Added Value - as its added Value anything is good but i would like to see it stay the same giving people the chance to play in bigger events above many people bank rolls is only good for the players in the exspeience they will get from playing them and hopfully winning one
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Reg fee - no problem
Schedule - as i dont play all its not a problem for me might even be better for me , And i will still support APAT when i can as its allways a great weekend well run and great bunch of people even if there is far 2 many welsh people there. And after speaking to Tighty about APAT 1 day coming to Yorkshire he did explain to me the difficulty they have had at getting a venue that will stage a APAT event so i will refrain my usual request for APAT to come to YORKSHIRE ;)
Added Value - as its added Value anything is good but i would like to see it stay the same giving people the chance to play in bigger events above many people bank rolls is only good for the players in the exspeience they will get from playing them and hopfully winning one
Will Genting casino not hold an APAT? They are opening a new casino in Sheffield and will run a GPS event there this year!!!!
1 Reg Fee
I"d not complain about paying a 10% fee at all and dont see why one hasnt been charged before.As mentioned before an optional season ticket/membership fee that would waive the reg fees would be good.
2 Scheduling
Every month I"d play as many as poss, every 6 week I"d rock up to em all. Dont think its the time between events myself more the locations for me. Big UK cities like Newcastle Nottingham Manchester Luton no probs.Vegas and Cork or owt like that is a no no for me keep it easy to get to.
3 Winners packages
Although your idea of having every winner at WCOAP is great IMO you knowwhat its like at least one wont make it. Like the passport idea if it was open to any APAT championship. I would prefer an option of event to play. A choice of APAT passport/ Genting/ DTD would do me
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Reg fees.
This was a USP of APATs and whilst I, and many others, wouldn"t mind paying a reg fee I have a suggestion that creates a new USP and also help solve the issue of needed to generate some funds to cover costs.
Membership fee.
All existing members could be classed as "Bronze" (or similar) and this level of membership could remain free. "Silver" membership could cost £x and for that you get reg free entry into x number of tournaments. "Gold" membership could cost more and give you additional benefits like priority on available seats in events, free gifts like an exculsive card guard (which isn"t realy free but it works for other organisations!). The possible options for this model are endless and I just put it out there as an alternative.
I think the real USP of APAT is the community and the fact member have always been listened to in the development of APAT over the years. Membership fees would increase this community spirit and given that people are willing to pay reg fees then the cost would not be an issue.
To be clear, I"m not suggesting we make APAT an exclusive club, that is not what it"s about. Anyone would still be able to play an APAT event and therefore reg fees would be needed, but being a paying member would give you extra value.
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Hate that idea Stu - it differentiates between people who can afford membership and those who can"t, which then creates layers of exclusivity...
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Added value
I personally prefer the entry into a bigger event. This is based on the fact I would probably buy-in to the APAT event anyway and I"m sure this applies to many.
Perhaps that bigger event could be an APAT one with a higher buy-in? Perhaps an end of season £250-500 event at the WCOAP.
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No problem with Reg Fees, seem perfectly logical. Personally the most important motif of an APAT weekend away is the combination of some serious poker with an excellent structure and a chance to just play poker when knocked out. Having a festival approach sounds great but there needs to be the opportunity to just play whether its STT"s, cash, other MTT"s I don"t think it matters. If I look back to earlier seasons whether it was the Vic, Edinburgh or Luton being able to just play offset the investment of the APAT weekend away. To me a quality side event starting at midday on the Sunday would be great, even better when playing different games, again much fun had in the past with Razz, O8 etc!
In terms of added value I am a bit torn, makes sense to keep in-house, but as one who got lucky and binked a biggie it gave me a thrilling poker experience playing the GUKPT GF.
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Reg fees.
This was a USP of APATs and whilst I, and many others, wouldn"t mind paying a reg fee I have a suggestion that creates a new USP and also help solve the issue of needed to generate some funds to cover costs.
Membership fee.
All existing members could be classed as "Bronze" (or similar) and this level of membership could remain free. "Silver" membership could cost £x and for that you get reg free entry into x number of tournaments. "Gold" membership could cost more and give you additional benefits like priority on available seats in events, free gifts like an exculsive card guard (which isn"t realy free but it works for other organisations!). The possible options for this model are endless and I just put it out there as an alternative.
I think the real USP of APAT is the community and the fact member have always been listened to in the development of APAT over the years. Membership fees would increase this community spirit and given that people are willing to pay reg fees then the cost would not be an issue.
To be clear, I"m not suggesting we make APAT an exclusive club, that is not what it"s about. Anyone would still be able to play an APAT event and therefore reg fees would be needed, but being a paying member would give you extra value.
typical scott does not mind paying a reg fee but wants a free card guard ;)
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Hate that idea Stu - it differentiates between people who can afford membership and those who can"t, which then creates layers of exclusivity...
reg fee = £7.50
membership fee = £0 (for bronze)
£7.50 for silver with one reg free tourney.
^^^^ as an example
If you cant afford the membership you cant afford the reg fee
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Hate that idea Stu - it differentiates between people who can afford membership and those who can"t, which then creates layers of exclusivity...
reg fee = £7.50
membership fee = £0 (for bronze)
£7.50 for silver with one reg free tourney.
^^^^ as an example
If you cant afford the membership you cant afford the reg fee
It"s just a different model for the same cost
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Membership fee.
All existing members could be classed as "Bronze" (or similar) and this level of membership could remain free. "Silver" membership could cost £x and for that you get reg free entry into x number of tournaments. "Gold" membership could cost more and give you additional benefits like priority on available seats in events, free gifts like an exculsive card guard (which isn"t realy free but it works for other organisations!). The possible options for this model are endless and I just put it out there as an alternative.
I suggested something almost exactly the same when the S6 discussions started and it was not something Des wanted to pursue.
To me the membership "fee" should represent basically prepaid registration fees. If I pay my money up front and am guaranteed a seat then APAT gets the cash up front and the use of it until the event.
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A membership fee might work for established APAT regulars who would probably benefit in the short-to-long term. I can"t see it being an attractive proposition for potential members and I suspect that it would discourage participation.
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We will go with a series of different partners in 2012 which will give us the freedom to amend the schedule as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reg fee will essentially enable us to add more events, so I would see us increasing from 6 to 8 or 9 as seems to be the popular request at the moment.
I might be reading between the lines here, but it sounds like most of the decisions have already been made ;)
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Reg Fees - I understand that the APAT ethos was to not charge players these. but I dont think anyone would be put off entering what are good structured deepstack tournaments for the sake of an extra fiver.
Scheduling - for me personally I really enjoy the online nationals, they are just as important for me as the live stuff and I would like them to stay on a Saturday please. as many as you can squueze into your schedule. APATs online stuff are the best (maybe only) deepstack events available for a reasonable amount of money.
Added Value - anything extra is a bonus
keep up the good work
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We will go with a series of different partners in 2012 which will give us the freedom to amend the schedule as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reg fee will essentially enable us to add more events, so I would see us increasing from 6 to 8 or 9 as seems to be the popular request at the moment.
I might be reading between the lines here, but it sounds like most of the decisions have already been made ;)
That"s not the case Ian but we"re keenly aware of the challenges we will face should we make the wrong decisions.
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I don"t mind paying a reg fee, but I agree with Ian that potential new members would struggle to differentiate between APAT events and other events that charge a reg fee.
With all the other tours going on and one off deepstacks being organised then 6 APAT events a year is fine IMO
Any added value is great, but limiting the prize to a one off festival is a bit poor. If players can"t get time off work to play the sides or are on holiday then the added value is worthless, unless they wait the following year. I think the prize of a WCOAP passport is excellent but I would be flexible and offer equivalent tickets for other events
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With all the other tours going on and one off deepstacks being organised then 6 APAT events a year is fine IMO
but, but the other tours aren"t APAT events...with all that goes with them.
Reducing the availability of your product when you are trying to sell more of it (i.e. attract new members) doesn"t make sense to me.
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1. Reg Fees.
I don"t mean to sound snobby, but I always thought that anyone put off by them needed a reality check. Nowadays the poker community takes them as a given. Its the money you pay the casino to put on an event, where the winners scoop all the prize pool. I most certainly wouldn"t mind paying a registration fee if it went to APAT to make the organisation stronger and helped with operating costs etc.
I think those willing to stump up £75 - £150 for a tournament and then begrudge £5 - 10 on top need to look at their BRM. Reg fees really should be factored in.
2. Scheduling
Not really got much of an opinion as I"ve been away for a few years. The new online league looks great, especially as it also counts towards individual rankings. Its alot more simplistic.
The festival thing sounds great, but there are a few events I"ve looked at over the last few years and thought "meh". If theres anything for chopping it should be all the forum/team/pub type event stuff. Really doesn"t do it for me, but each to their own I guess.
3. Prize
This is one I think I can offer a bit of an opinion on. I"ve seen the prize packages (added value) offered by some of the sponsors over the last few years and didn"t think they were very attractive. At least not in comparison to the events that the likes of Kinboshi, RichEO and myself were able to experience.
The EPT experience will always be etched on my mind - and in some ways is what keeps driving me to keep playing and trying to improve. The reason is that I"m determined to get back to another one, the experience really was that good. The package that Stars gifted was amazing - flight money, hotel, clothing, spending money and tourney entry. Add to that the amazing event organisation and the general buzz, it was fantastic. In fact the only thing that comes close is an APAT event (but these have a different type of buzz).
I don"t know if its realistic to expect such added value ever again. A passport would be attractive to the Vegas event, otherwise I think you need an entry to a pro tour event for that wow factor (and the incentive to really go for the top prize rather than nitting it up near the bubble/FT).
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I"ve never understood why there wasn"t a registration fee when every other big or small tournament has them; actually I have always thought that the sponsors were covering them - did I imagine that? Everyone expects to pay reg fees - the only complaints are when players feel that too much has been charged.
The chance of winning an entry into a £500 or higher event is much more attractive than a WCOAP passport. Someone who has played and won one of APAT's main events is likely to take part in the WCOAP anyway, but very few APAT players would ever have the chance to play UKIPTs, etc if they didn"t win a seat.
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We will go with a series of different partners in 2012 which will give us the freedom to amend the schedule as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reg fee will essentially enable us to add more events, so I would see us increasing from 6 to 8 or 9 as seems to be the popular request at the moment.
I might be reading between the lines here, but it sounds like most of the decisions have already been made ;)
That"s not the case Ian but we"re keenly aware of the challenges we will face should we make the wrong decisions.
Hence my caveat. I"m sure that I speak for all APAT regs when I say that the organisation is in safe hands and we are all very grateful for your efforts.
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Adding the registration fee is a must.
I don"t know the exact percentage of local players there are to Apat regulars at each event, but the local players often expect to pay a reg fee and wonder why it hasn"t been applied. They don"t have any intention of playing another Apat event unless it returns to their regular casino the following year.
What I am trying to say is that the Apat Tour regulars are the ones that will benefit from this in the long run.
Personally I think £75 + £7.50 or even £75 + £10 would be justified if it meant there was "Livestream" and commentary. Are there any plans for this in Season 6 ?
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No to the online event being on a Thursday before the live event. Too much all in one go, spread out the fun!!
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I"ve never understood why there wasn"t a registration fee when every other big or small tournament has them; actually I have always thought that the sponsors were covering them - did I imagine that? Everyone expects to pay reg fees - the only complaints are when players feel that too much has been charged.
The chance of winning an entry into a £500 or higher event is much more attractive than a WCOAP passport. Someone who has played and won one of APAT's main events is likely to take part in the WCOAP anyway, but very few APAT players would ever have the chance to play UKIPTs, etc if they didn"t win a seat.
Yes APAT always paid the reg fees out of the sponsorship fee.
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My 2penith
1. Reg Fee: I don"t see this being an issue with anyone, at the end of the day even at £75+7.50 it is still the cheepest buy-in for tournaments of this quality. However, if there is any intention of the tournament buy-in being increased to £100+10 this could make a huge difference! If there are less events then maybe £90+9 would be affordable for all/most.
2. Scheduling: For me this isn"t a great issue as I have only ever travelled to Nottingham and Luton. But, heres my thoughts anyway... If the quantity of events is reduced what are the chances of all played events becoming 3 day events (2x Day 1"s with 300-400 entries), with side events on both day 1"s and another side event on Day 2? Is there the demand for 300+ fields in APAT? Would the Worlds have demand for 3x Day 1"s. I have always thought the World Championship Event should be at the end of the season!
3. Winners Packages: For me I think that the WCOAP Package is not a good move. The chance of winning a seat into an event beyond my bankroll, in a field of players beyond my ability was the most appealing thing to me. When I was down to the final three at Luton in 2010 (blatent "I"ve made the final three" brag) it wasn"t particularly the money I could win or that I was getting a medal, because I was already guarenteed them, I wanted to win for the opportunity to play in a bigger event! UKIPT, GPS, GUKPT, EPT, WPT, World Championship packages (we can only hope) would be better.
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My thoughts on this:
Reg Fee - It"s all down to personal views and circumstances but the addition of a Reg Fee wouldn"t stop me playing at an APAT event. Reg Free may be APAT's USP but what is that USP achieving?
Scheduling - I can see where you are coming from but 6 events really isn"t enough especially if 6 includes The Irish, Scottish & Team events as it"s really a hardcore that travel (particularly to the Irish) and not everyone can play the team event. A lot of previous posters seem to be landing on 9 and that feels about right; I"d like to see a 6-weekly scheduling including (Random order) English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, UK, Euro, WCOAP, Team +1 other.
Would the Festival idea really take off? It depends what the Friday get together entails. If it"s a "special" tourney at the casino on Friday night with a bit of added value, then maybe? Seats in events the following day could be added to the top "x" finishers. If you have already bought in, as most will have, then you at least you will be free-rollin" plus any cash you win in the tourney. It would add and extra impetus should events sell out also.
To get the Festival feel, please vary the Sunday sides whenever possible - i.e. not always PLO
I personally do not like the "online Thursday"s" idea. People committing their weekends are unlikely to want to give up Thursday nights as well. I like the Online Championships being on weekends as they currently are.
Added Value is the cherry on top - not a reason to play APAT but a bonus. Although I would never have played a GUKPT so far were it not for APAT.
+1
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No to the online event being on a Thursday before the live event. Too much all in one go, spread out the fun!!
I can see the online event happening on a Thursday as a one off, I like the idea of maybe giving it a trial run as part of a festival for the WCOAP event. But to stage each and every online championship on a Thursday night would be illogical in my opinion. As I feel that player numbers wouldn"t reach the full potential due to work commitments etc.
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Like the new ideas and the fact that Pokerstars are hosting the league.
Festival thing sounds good.
The only thing I would change/query from last year is why does day 2 on the Sunday not start till 3.00pm?
Everyone"s there in a nearby hotel kicking their heels just hanging around, it could start earlier IMO.
Reg Fees fine by me especially if it allows the APAT to advertise/promote itself.
Agree with (much) earlier poster re the lack of the locals even knowing anything about the APAT when it turns up at their casino. To some we are an annoyance as it means their normal evening comp is either capped or cancelled.
Is it possible to run live satellites for a couple of seats at the venue in the run up to each event as this would promote the APAT brand and build some relations with the locals?
Anyway on the whole it"s all gravy!
Looking forward to the new season :)
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Like the new ideas and the fact that Pokerstars are hosting the league.
Festival thing sounds good.
The only thing I would change/query from last year is why does day 2 on the Sunday not start till 3.00pm?
Everyone"s there in a nearby hotel kicking their heels just hanging around, it could start earlier IMO.
Reg Fees fine by me especially if it allows the APAT to advertise/promote itself.
Agree with (much) earlier poster re the lack of the locals even knowing anything about the APAT when it turns up at their casino. To some we are an annoyance as it means their normal evening comp is either capped or cancelled.
Is it possible to run live satellites for a couple of seats at the venue in the run up to each event as this would promote the APAT brand and build some relations with the locals?
Anyway on the whole it"s all gravy!
Looking forward to the new season :)
On this note why not start day 1 earlier too? 12pm starts would be awesome
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On this note why not start day 1 earlier too? 12pm starts would be awesome
For the same reasons as always...casino staffing.
I suppose if APAT is going to "own" the cardroom space for a couple of days (based on Des" breakdown of the festival)* then we could request more staff but that adds to the cost and thus drives up the reg. fee.
*
My view is that we should go to a Festival style weekend once every two months. That gives us more time to run satellites and promote the events hard. Over the festival weekend, I can see us having the Online Championship event on the Thursday night, a member get together on the Friday night, the main event over Saturday and Sunday, a live event on Saturday night, a live event on Sunday afternoon and a one table Cash Tour event over the weekend also.
Saturday : Main Event Day 1
Saturday : APAT Live Event
Sunday : Main Event Day 2
Sunday : APAT Live Event
Sunday : Cash Tour Table
That means you"d have to staff up to 20 tables for something on the order of 12 hours a day over two days....not many casinos have the depth of staff to manage that. In fact the only one I can think of is DTD.
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Reg fee not a problem.
Events 6 ok if they are going to be quite central. 8 if a couple are going to be remote.
Quality over quantity everytime.
Added value WCOAP sounds good to me.
:)
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Reg fee no probs with me ,
Whenever scheduled whatever suits
WCOAP passport good idea if it wasnt being held at DTD (can i have genting seat instead and put the balance in ) ??
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Des, you can avoid the need to introduce reg fees by simply scooping up all the tuppences and $0.02 which are on this thread.
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I think 8-9 events is about right. What I would say though is the need for the events to be defined at the start of the season. I would not like to see extra tournaments added or tournaments cancelled once the season has started for the following reason. In the event that player x is leading the ranking points with one event to go and has a very good chance of winning the added value, only to be told that there are now two extra events, and everyone else has been given two extra bites at the cherry to overtake them, or conversely an event is cancelled leaving the chasing pack high and dry, either of these two outcomes would be a pr disaster.
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What I would say though is the...events [should] be defined at the start of the season.
+1
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Misquoted ! That"s the gutter press for you, however, I must concur that your version is by far superior and grammatically correct :P
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Misquoted ! That"s the gutter press for you, however, I must concur that your version is by far superior and grammatically correct :P
Gutter press...LOL ;D
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Is it "Announcement Time" tomorrow????????
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Is it "Announcement Time" tomorrow????????
Later in the week, possibly the weekend.
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Reg Fee:
Seems sensible to me. No problem with this being included. Can always be taken away at a later point if conditions allow
Scheduling:
The Nationals are the Blue Riband of APAT, and cutting these down to 6 is not the way to go IMO. 9 seems about right with 1 of these being a Team Event and 1 the Festival at DTD at the end of August. The season should run March - November with Dec/Jan/Feb being the off season.
Winners Packages:
Dont like the idea of WCOAP package. To me, the idea of winning one of these, and getting a shot against Professional players and playing a GUKPT etc was a massive selling point. Taking this away would lose a big part of the appeal of APAT. UKIPT seats as a minimum really.
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Reg fee- 10% reg is fine by me.
Scheduling-
Would like to see more than 6 live events. And like the idea of the $55 online beign on a Thursday, much prefer than saturday anyway.
Packages-
would of thought that everyone wants to play as many events here as possible during the WCOAP festival anyway, and i would rather win a seat to an event like GUKPT/Genting/UKIPT etc, somthing that i wouldnt really be able to buy myself into, rather than a bunch of events that i was gonna play anyway.
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1 Reg Fee
I"ve yet to meet anyone who plays APAT games because of the free entry, most people play APAT for the community spirit, a far better USP if you ask me.
2 Scheduling
8-9 weekends a year sounds like the way to go, 2 trips to DTD and WCOAP as the season finale would be great. If I have one request to make it"s that we avoid bank holiday weekends as far as possible. May be preferable for those that can"t get much time off work but for those of us with families it"s a huge amount of grief to lose another bank holiday weekend to poker.
3 Winners Packages
I"d much rather see the added value be maintained as an entry to a higher buy in event which we wouldn"t normally be able to play rather than 3 or 4 events which we would. Speaking from experience there is nothing quite like comparing skills with the better players that the pro game (supposedly) has to offer and it"s something that I hope every APAT player has the opportunity to experience at some stage.
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Excited about the pending Season 6 announcement :)
just to get my bit in...
Reg Fee - CANT BELIEVE YOU WOULD DO THIS??!!
obviously joking :) the fact there isnt one and hasnt been since its inception is a luxury you will not see anywhere else and quite rightly APAT have played this as its ace card for a poker tour. But quite frankly the pros, as explained by Des, really outweigh any problem with having a fee. Every poker game i play has a fee so introducing this wouldnt be of any concern. Way i look at it, if ur willing to pay £75-100 for a game, wots 10% on top really?
Scheduling - 8/9 sounds ideal. 6 is too few, especially as people cant make them all, so jus having more opportunities to play events wud be great. Ive never been involved in a team event so cant speak about the value of those, but they seem to get a great rep from participants, seems a shame to lose them but having said that do we really want them to take a place of a national event?
if we use a 6weekly gap between Live events, i dont really like the idea of the online champs being the thursday before. Space out the events over that gap,
one week - online league,
one week - online champs,
one week - off,
two weeks leading to national - sats into the live events,
or something similar?
Added value - UKIPT, GPS etc seats please.
Like most have said, vast majority will be playing the WCOAP anyways, and whilst the passport is a nice little money saver, it only counts for real value if u can turn a profit from the wkend. yeh sure, its nice to be freerolling but if it was a choice of that or freerolling a UKIPT along side some of the games top names, think most serious APATers would love a crack at that, especially those whose struggle to justify the buyin at that level.
either way, its all sounds great and cant wait to get together for another fantastic APAT festival :)
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A Reg Fee seems the sensible way to go for APAT. Like most, if not all on here I don"t think it will put people off playing and now seems a good time to use APAT money for other things and I definitely don"t have a problem with it.
With regards to 6 events a year I am also of the opinion that this is much too low. Some of us have to pick and choose the events we play for various reasons (finances, distance, annual leave availability) and with so few games in a year this could mean that only one or two events would be reachable during the season, which would be a shame. Also the team events lower the availability for a lot of people so I really hope these would be included as an additional part of a weekend, rather than a stand-alone event (if only 6 events were held). In fact as I"m typing this and working out normal places/events for APAT, such as Scotland, Ireland, Wales, venue abroad, team event x 2 that is already 6 events and doesn"t leave one bog standard APAT weekend for anywhere in England. We definitely need more than 6 in a year Des ;D
With regard to the added value (which is highly unlikely to affect me haha) I would like to see this used for the bigger buy in games such as UKIPT etc. Most people will play the APAT Worlds anyway and the chance to play with pro"s and enjoy the experience is surely something to spur people on. People also then have an option to choose an event/date that suits them, rather than APAT having a problem if anyone is unable to make the Worlds for any reason. I also like watching any players progress in these events.
With regard to Online Championships I"m also not keen on having them on a Thursday night before an APAT weekend. Makes for a very expensive week for one thing and also if leaving for a weekend away on Friday then the Thursday evenings are normally busy doing other things. I much prefer them to be at the weekend as they currently are.
I"d also like to say thanks Des for all your efforts in trying to improve APAT and moving forward in a positive way. It"s very much appreciated and I totally love my APAT weekends ;D
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A few views from a new member!!
Reg:
TBH I had never heard of APAT until the Brighton event(and I used to be Area Manager for pub poker league and online blogger/live updater!!) and it was only through luck that a player mentioned the event to me the Friday before and I managed to get up early and sneek in!!..........I was totally amazed when I rocked up for a £75 event and there was no juice to pay!!
Wherever u play poker there is always a reg fee whether it be live or online(apart from Party Pokers promo at mo obv!!) so anyone who begrudges this isnt worth wasting your breath on!!......obv the lower the juice the better!!......£75+5 or £100+9 sounds a good option to me as then its still a reduction from the normal 10%.......obv dont go anywhere near the 20% that Rendezvous charges sometimes!!
The more promotion that can be done from the extra revenues obv the better so that newbies like me can find out about APAT and how it all works......still a bit confused at mo with all the offerings such as WCOAP etc........where can I actually find a breakdown on one page of the annual going ons?!!
Schedule:
6 a year is too low as mentioned in previous posts, would go for 9/10 as then people who cant attend for certain reasons get plenty of opportunities to catch up.
Online event on Thurs(what is this for by way?!!) before live event seems way too much for the weekend especially as the online Sunday events just about to kick off!!
Added Value:
Gotta agree with the big seats option here......what if someone cant get to WCOAP(whatever this is!!)........players would get much more of an experience out of playing UKIPT, GSP, EPT or possibly even small WSOP event.
Can I also make a suggestion that now as you are hooked up with Stars that there could be the possibility of online sattelites for the live events?........obv not all players can afford to always stump up the £75/100 but with a £10/20 sattelite every week/fortnight with 1/2 seats gtd into event of your choice this would offer people a great way of getting to all events even if not in there BR previously.........you could also possibly run a monthly say £50 satellite to win say a £500 package to include accomodation, travel and buy-ins to all events at festival of choice.....just an idea and dunno if this already done!!
Anyway enough from me.....seems like a great thing you got going on here and looking forward to playing as many events as I can.
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Reg Fee:
Whilst the marketing aspect of a reg free series was great I agree with everyone else that the marketplace, costs etc has moved on since then. I too would wholeheartedly support the introduction of a fee, but wherever possible please keep overall costs down. The whole concept of an amateur assocation/tour/series etc in my mind is that it should be within the realms of the vast majority that show an interest and not be elitest or restricted solely to those who can afford it.
I also feel that APAT should retain it"s unique distinction and ladder gap from other "standard" £100+ events so maybe we could consider a £75+5 (with the marketing of one of the lowest fees still in the market) or if 10% is a necessity then maybe £70+7.
In saying this I do fully appreciate that we need to also balance the potential prize payouts against costs of getting there/staying overnight etc. I would love to see a £25 mini tour for example, but this is totally unrealistic considering min £30pn b&b & £30 petrol/train or £80 flight to get there etc.
I personally still believe something starting with a 7 would be optimal balancing point.
Schedule:
The UK calendar is getting extremely congested and my thoughts go out to you guys in trying to pull the logistics of all this together. At the end of the day members fully appreciate everything you do and will fit in with whatever you are able to achieve, knowing that everything you already do is an attempt to get the best possible package for members.
My only thought in terms of number of events would be a necessity of retaining the core "individual nationals". There has been a trend towards a large proportion of team events in recent years (appreciate the reasons behind it), but a number of these are out of reach of "average joe" who isn"t part of a pub or isn"t selected for forum/national team.
Locations:
Obviously try to retain the spread across the UK (& beyond), Brighton was great and a welcome short trip for those of us in the south.
Added value:
I must admit I too love the whole concept of our leading players going to represent us in the next step up, be it UKIPT, GPS, GUKPT etc.
Whilst this adds a lot of value to an elite few rather than being spread out across the membership, every member has a chance of obtaining it and I for one would be sad to see it go. There is nothing better than railing a fellow APAT"er in a big tour and it"s great exposure for the brand.
Online Sats to events:
The more the better, at all price points please. Again this allows entry to those where a £75 tourney & £70+ costs to get there/stay weekend is still a luxury as opposed to the norm.
Thanks for listening :)
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Now that Paulie and Myles have had your discussion, I"m going to remove the relevant posts as they just make my job a great deal harder.
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Oops...sorry Des.
Didn"t realise.
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Has incorporation of a reg fee by reducing the buy-in been considered? For example, £70+5, which would retain the "magical" £75 total cost to play (which is nicely pitched). I guess that some might see this as a tax on the winners as the prize pool will be slightly reduced, but thought I"d throw it out there.
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Oops...sorry Des.
Didn"t realise.
+1 sorry
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Js
Has incorporation of a reg fee by reducing the buy-in been considered? For example, £70+5, which would retain the "magical" £75 total cost to play (which is nicely pitched). I guess that some might see this as a tax on the winners as the prize pool will be slightly reduced, but thought I"d throw it out there.
This
Seriously, reg fee up to £10 on £75 is reasonable for a dealer dealt tournament with the structure APAT gives us
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I never claimed that £75+10 was unreasonable, I just thought I"d suggest an alternative. That said, I think £75 (total cost) is a well pitched product, offering a step up from £30 & £50 tournaments that are commonplace, but still cheaper than the £100 tournaments that deter some folk.
I"ve only played one APAT event so far (but intend to play more) so my opinion might not reflect the mood of seasoned APATers, but I thought an option that eliminated the creep towards £100 might appeal to some. I"m happy to pay £70+5, £75+10 or even £90+10.
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I never claimed that £75+10 was unreasonable, I just thought I"d suggest an alternative. That said, I think £75 (total cost) is a well pitched product, offering a step up from £30 & £50 tournaments that are commonplace, but still cheaper than the £100 tournaments that deter some folk.
I"ve only played one APAT event so far (but intend to play more) so my opinion might not reflect the mood of seasoned APATers, but I thought an option that eliminated the creep towards £100 might appeal to some. I"m happy to pay £70+5, £75+10 or even £90+10.
All suggestions are welcome and I hope we see you at several more APAT events :)
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The best part about APAT has always been the "Craic" and you get to meet friends old and new. 6 events a year is way too low...9-10 would be great but I agree about the Bank Holidays...that is not great for us with families.
Online Championships on a Thursday sounds great.
One final request....PLEASE BRING BACK DUBLIN !! (CAPS as requested by Andy Duncan ;D )
Dublin for many was always the best APAT.
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PLEASE let season 6 be announced today. That is all ;D
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One final request....PLEASE BRING BACK DUBLIN !!
I volunteer to do the recce!
I think Larry Murphy"s is missing us.
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One final request....PLEASE BRING BACK DUBLIN !!
I volunteer to do the recce!
I think Larry Murphy"s is missing us.
and their takings are down aswell ;D ;D
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I would just like to thank everyone for the amazing level of feedback we"ve received on this thread. We have taken as much of that feedback into account as possible; although of course, we will not be able to deliver everything you have asked for.
What shines out is the amazing level of support and loyalty that we receive from our members; and I guess that above all else is what makes APAT different to every other tour in the market. I received an email from a member last night, who genuinely didn"t want to post his thoughts on the forum, and it ran to pages and was incredibly well reasoned and thoughtful. We have an incredibly strong community and I"m delighted to have the #1 on my avatar; having been here from the very start.
Thank you everyone.
All being well, we will be making the Season Six announcement later this evening. I can"t give an exact time as there is a lot of work to do between then and now, but it will be as soon as we can. :)
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Perhaps it"s time to lock this up and start a new thread called "Season 6 Discussion - Post Announcement Thread" ;D
I"ll be first to say that I"m 100% sure that everyone will appreciate whatever you can pull out of your...hat.
As always...you name it, I"ll turn up.
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Perhaps it"s time to lock this up and start a new thread called "Season 6 Discussion - Post Announcement Thread" ;D
I"ll be first to say that I"m 100% sure that everyone will appreciate whatever you can pull out of your...hat.
As always...you name it, I"ll turn up.
+1 ;D
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Weeeeeeeeeeeee WP Des this evening is very soon....
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Looks like tonight will be a busy night, good luck Des, Tighty and all the mods
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Working tonight so will have to wait till morning sigh
:-\
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I set the line at 10.40pm
over/under anyone
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I set the line at 10.40pm
over/under anyone
a pint says it"s under
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As always...you name it, I"ll turn up.
yup, pretty much sums it up 8)
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We"ve had a slight hold up and won"t be able to come out with the announcement until tomorrow now. Sorry folks. It"s good news though, so will be worth it.
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We"ve had a slight hold up and won"t be able to come out with the announcement until tomorrow now. Sorry folks. It"s good news though, so will be worth it.
have put the champagne on ice for another day. Looking forward to the mad rush for hotels and flights.
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lol and the suspense drags on :D
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As always...you name it, I"ll turn up.
yup, pretty much sums it up 8)
Likewise.....gonna try n get to as much as I can this season
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I set the line at 10.40pm
over/under anyone
a pint says it"s under
thank you :)
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We"ve had a slight hold up and won"t be able to come out with the announcement until tomorrow now. Sorry folks. It"s good news though, so will be worth it.
Sigh....another sleepless night!
You can sure keep a guy on tenterhooks. ;D
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We"ve had a slight hold up and won"t be able to come out with the announcement until tomorrow now. Sorry folks. It"s good news though, so will be worth it.
daytime or evening? ;)
Oh and Stu, gl getting that pint btw
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Its usually evening that the new season gets announced, when most people are online.
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We"ve had a slight hold up and won"t be able to come out with the announcement until tomorrow now. Sorry folks. It"s good news though, so will be worth it.
Oh and Stu, gl getting that pint btw
^^^^^
THIS ;D
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Just dont put anything on June 2nd now we have set the date for our BCPC Golf Day !!
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We"ve had a slight hold up and won"t be able to come out with the announcement until tomorrow now. Sorry folks. It"s good news though, so will be worth it.
Oh and Stu, gl getting that pint btw
^^^^^
THIS ;D
it"s official i hate you all ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Just dont put anything on June 2nd now we have set the date for our BCPC Golf Day !!
Des was going to announce tonight but delayed it until tomorrow. Must be because of this ^^^^^
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We"ve had a slight hold up and won"t be able to come out with the announcement until tomorrow now. Sorry folks. It"s good news though, so will be worth it.
Damm can you direct message it me please, working tomorrow night >:( haha.. So please make it around 4pm.. Or links to facebook etc so I get an email.. Wifi sucks in the pub...
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The announcement will be made at 2.00pm today.
Satellites to the first Amateur Championship event will take place on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of next week.
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The announcement will be made at 2.00pm today.
Satellites to the first Amateur Championship event will take place on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of next week.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-LbvFckptY[/youtube]
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XxshEdcfAM[/youtube]
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45 mins. WoOp :D
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More excited than a kid on christmas eve
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More excited than a kid on christmas eve
+1 ;D
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Sats Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday...
It doesn"t take a genius to work out the first APAT Live will be March 3rd & 4th. How lucky that my Mrs is away for that very same weekend..
Please don"t dissappoint me on this presumption....
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Sats Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday...
It doesn"t take a genius to work out the first APAT Live will be March 3rd & 4th. How lucky that my Mrs is away for that very same weekend..
Please don"t dissappoint me on this presumption....
Wrong.
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TICK
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TOCK
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I would guess at end of March or possibly even an Easter festival event but you never know with those tricky APAT chappies.
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f5 button broken.... sigh...
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.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0[/youtube]
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One minute
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F5
F5
F5
F5
F5........
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SOON
NOW!!!!
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It"s turned 2pm.....
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It"s turned 2pm.....
Bill you must know by now announcements are rarely on time lol
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William Hill sponsoring the first one.... I like it.... On seperate thread
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yayyyyy 15k stacks for the main events!! :D :D :D
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Feel free to post your thoughts in the announcement thread guys....that"s the one the sponsor will look through. ;)
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Is there still time to suggest ideas for Season 6?:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9tDWo8HnUfg/T1Fc6SF248I/AAAAAAAAAqo/1kRINS0xrQ8/s512/FXL_7770v.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GJjbJ35DzAM/T1Oz-bapmHI/AAAAAAAAB14/DTRixHHVi-E/s720/IMG_3042.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Fx-uTbU0cmc/T1Fc-FmCVmI/AAAAAAAAAqo/GuRfhiqhpq0/s512/FXL_7777v.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rjS1sOqzViE/T1UscJQXwoI/AAAAAAAACtA/OI34C2RFXL4/s512/POV-0538.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XVjnofe8iJI/T1UsZSKlNbI/AAAAAAAACso/AhTwv1GHjWU/s512/POV-0521.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HAY2azEXapg/T1UsZ5t2eXI/AAAAAAAACsk/vWvWAHf6s48/s720/POV-0526.jpg)
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Young ladies announcing the arrival of each new level...I like....
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Young ladies announcing the arrival of each new level...I like....
And for the ladies can i suggest myself , matt , dan and ger in the same attire (obviously payment in beer from apat )
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Young ladies announcing the arrival of each new level...I like....
And for the ladies can i suggest myself , matt , dan and ger in the same attire (obviously payment in beer from apat )
woop woop
7h 2c