888 terms and conditions - Inactive accounts beware

[gareth888]

Hi all,

I am in the management of 888, and would like to address these concern directly to you.

I want to point out that before any deduction of funds from an inactive account (6 months without logging in) ever happens, we email the member numerous to tell them that the time is approaching (a month before the time). And all they need to do to become active is again is login and play a hand. I think that isn't a great burden for anyone, for whatever reason they are taking a break from poker. We have an instant play no download client that works on all computers. It takes 1 min to login and play a hand - and then the player is considered active. We don't deduct funds from a member without warning them. We want our customers to be active playing poker of course, and OF COURSE we try and re-activate our customers before this even becomes an issue.

Now it's not our own policy as to why we need to do it, it's because it's a licensing REQUIREMENT for the particular gaming licenses we have in our jurisdiction. That is why you will find the other operators that have similar policy are usually in the same licensing jurisdiction as 888.

The reason the regulators want us to do this, is that we cannot keep an open cash liability in our financials forever and we have all sorts of financial guidelines like anti money laundering we need to consider in our business. We are licensed to be a gaming operator, not a bank where we hold the funds forever. During normal gaming play we of course securely hold customers funds so they can be used in the poker play. So we need (and must have) a policy in which deters customers from leaving money with us without playing with it. Our license says we can hold funds only for game play. We are not a licensed financial institution.

I consider our process to be very fair and reasonable around the guidelines we are given. We don't even consider an account inactive for 6 months, and all a customer needs to do is login in that period and this is never an issue. We notify them by email if this is ever happens. They can login once and a new 6 months starts, or of course they could withdraw the funds and redeposit later should they decide to return to us. Even if the 6 months deadline does come, we still only take 10% a month so we have opportunity to continue to try and re-activate this customer.

It's really important to make sure we have your correct email address so our communications reach you.

There is no malice intent here, it's just a combination of regulatory and financial requirements.

Regards
Gareth

[coprey]

Hi Gareth

Thanks for the response.

I would be interested to know the total cash taken from customers under this policy. Is this information available? Can you also tell me if it is also 888's policy to nullify customers accummulated reward points, if their account has been deemed inactive, and if so where this appears in the terms and conditions.

Thanks

Col

[AMRN]

Now it's not our own policy as to why we need to do it, it's because it's a licensing REQUIREMENT for the particular gaming licenses we have in our jurisdiction. That is why you will find the other operators that have similar policy are usually in the same licensing jurisdiction as 888.

Thanks for the response Gareth.  Regarding the quote above, I'd be interested to know other operators that take this stance... I've never come across it before, and have accounts on most of the major sites.

In my opinion, regardless of how hard you try and communicate with owners of inactive accounts, there may be valid reasons why someone is unable to login and play during a six month cycle. As you state, it only takes one minute, however there will be people who are physically unable to achieve this (resting at HM pleasure, hospitalised, working away, plain old simple personal reasons, etc) and to take their money away feels inappropriate and wrong. I understand that FSA rules may prohibit you from acting as a bank, however would expect that you would first attempt to return funds to source of deposit before simply swallowing them into 888's own accounts.

Cheers
Steve

[Marty719]

Surely making the account inactive would take all admin costs out and still make sure 888 are still not "acting like a bank."  I know I have money on other acc's which I havent used in 6 months. 

[gareth888]

Hi Gareth

Thanks for the response.

I would be interested to know the total cash taken from customers under this policy. Is this information available? Can you also tell me if it is also 888's policy to nullify customers accummulated reward points, if their account has been deemed inactive, and if so where this appears in the terms and conditions.

Thanks

Col

All of it is in the terms and conditions of course. I don't know the exact numbers to be honest as this rarely happens.

[gareth888]

Now it's not our own policy as to why we need to do it, it's because it's a licensing REQUIREMENT for the particular gaming licenses we have in our jurisdiction. That is why you will find the other operators that have similar policy are usually in the same licensing jurisdiction as 888.

Thanks for the response Gareth.  Regarding the quote above, I'd be interested to know other operators that take this stance... I've never come across it before, and have accounts on most of the major sites.

In my opinion, regardless of how hard you try and communicate with owners of inactive accounts, there may be valid reasons why someone is unable to login and play during a six month cycle. As you state, it only takes one minute, however there will be people who are physically unable to achieve this (resting at HM pleasure, hospitalised, working away, plain old simple personal reasons, etc) and to take their money away feels inappropriate and wrong. I understand that FSA rules may prohibit you from acting as a bank, however would expect that you would first attempt to return funds to source of deposit before simply swallowing them into 888's own accounts.

Cheers
Steve

Basically those with Gibraltar based license need to deal with this in some way. Party is the other major player in Gibraltar license and they handle the conditions in much the same way.

[gareth888]

Surely making the account inactive would take all admin costs out and still make sure 888 are still not "acting like a bank."  I know I have money on other acc's which I havent used in 6 months. 

We are only allowed to hold money for gaming use, plain and simple. If it becomes a situation where it might not be gaming use, then we need to encourage gaming play or remove the funds from the liability. We slow down the process as much as we can and take as many actions we can to re-activate the player. Naturally, our business is people playing poker. Ultimately this is what we always try to do. You think we want to make a customer angry by deducting money? We are FORCED to.

[gareth888]

The conditions and regulations to run online gaming are VERY complex and cumbersome. We have dozens of people dedicated to compliance issues. It causes a lot of restrictions on the way we do things, but ultimately it's all in place to protect you guys, the customers. At the end of the day, this is the goal of regulation (and of course for tax on operators ).

[samuel_9]

The conditions and regulations to run online gaming are VERY complex and cumbersome. We have dozens of people dedicated to compliance issues. It causes a lot of restrictions on the way we do things, but ultimately it's all in place to protect you guys, the customers. At the end of the day, this is the goal of regulation (and of course for tax on operators ).

Gareth888. Wright i love conditions put me in first place in a tourney and ill be there to protect there money just like  this hehe  http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=adam+and+the+ants+stand+and+deliver&aq=3.   I hope im not in trouble

[mfcrocker]

At the end of the day it's 888's decision to be based in Gibraltar - there are other tax-light options that aren't as restrictive (see Stars and the Isle of Man for an example).

It may not be something they can change but it's still a policy that's enough for me to stick to APAT events alone on 888.

[Des]

Gareth is a senior member of the team at 888 and I think he has been clear in explaining why 888poker implement this policy, and he has answered several of your questions also.  So, thanks for clarifying the situation Gareth.

It would appear to me that 888poker don't particularly like this term, as we don't.  Relocating from Gibraltar is of course not a realistic outcome and this particular term was proabably not a consideration in locating there in the first place.

Now those of you stating that you're not going to play on 888poker again, or will only play APAT games on 888poker, need to understand the reality of the way that APAT operates.  Our partners; in this case 888poker, enable our schedule to operate.  They pay for everything.  The Cups & Medals, the venue, the registration fees, the UKIPT seats, the streaming, the hotels that the organisers stay in - basically if someone sticks out a hand on our journey, 888poker pay. 

They do this because you all support them and not out of the goodness of their heart.  Although they are good of course In fact the more you play with 888poker the larger and more fruitful our opportunities with them are.  It's very simple commerce.  So I would appreciate if those of you who are considering restricting your support of 888poker would reconsider.  The term in question is stated in their T & Cs, it was clearly explained above, and is potentially rarely used.

Thanks,

Des.

[AMRN]

Top post Des - did you ever think about a career in politics?

I would certainly not stop playing at 888 - as a poker player, that would be -EV and not in the best interest of my bankroll

I think it's reasonable to voice the concern though over what is clearly a controversial term, and I appreciate and understand Gareth's responses.

[Swinebag22]

Thanks to Gareth for taking the time to respond.

I do take issue with his comment about players receiving an email to warn them about their imminent deduction. I don't remember receiving this and when I spoke to support they never mentioned that they sent me an email despite me suggesting that it would have been good practice to do so.

However, they have given me $30. I like the software and the tourneys on this site, so will certainly carry on playing on the site, APAT sponsorship or not.

One question still nags away at me though. And it has yet to be answered by support or anyone else at 888. Maybe Gareth can help?

If you take 10% each month, how come my account is (or was) on $0? it is impossible for this to happen. I asked last week for a statement to be sent with the relevant deductions on. A week later, I'm still waiting.

[Paulie_D]

If you take 10% each month, how come my account is (or was) on $0? it is impossible for this to happen.

You are assuming that the 10% of the account balance in play each month...perhaps they work out the initial balance, divide that by 10 and deduct that amount every month for 10 months.

Simpler admin....note initial amount, divide by 10, set up payment schedule, hit "Run".

[AllanD23]

good post gareth and good follow up mr duffy, probably enough to make me approach with an open mind...in reality it's never likely to cost me more than a few hundred quid but i think all the sites i've stopped playing are usually down to near zero anyway.

A suggestion might be that the sites could in fact just return the money to our cards/deposit method 10% at a time...(bet you get a response to random payments appearing in our accounts ) assuming the card registered with the site is still active of course which there might be a good chance of within 6 months.

Quick question for gareth, you mentioned a download free client...does this mean i can use my iphone ? (i guess through safari?)