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Another PLO Thread - AA with a flopped nut straight

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Jon MW:

--- Quote from: AMRN on April 20, 2012, 12:40:03 PM ---

--- Quote from: AAroddersAA on April 20, 2012, 12:17:10 PM ---
As Played:-
How do you respond if he pots it over the top of the 4-bet pre? Is this really a hand we want to get 500BB in with preflop?

--- End quote ---


This is the bit where I fall apart. I"m a Holdem player who is trying to convert to Omaha, and as a HE player, I just don"t have it in me to fold AA preflop. So yes, probably very wrongly, I would get it in here.

--- End quote ---


:o

In HE you"re likely to be about 80% favourite pre - in Omaha you"re more likely to be about 60-odd percent favourite.

I can see the argument about just getting your chips in as favourite, but there has to be a cut-off point where your chances of being outdrawn plus the size of the chipstacks is just too high to risk it all pre? Isn"t there?

dwh103:
I hate the 4bet pre. I"d only advocate if he"s the kind of player that needs to flop the nuts to continue.

The average player rightly or wrongly will immediately put you on AAxx, and in this case be correct. In addition your hand flops so poorly this might as well be a stone bluff with any 4. I"d rather 4bet a random double suited hand here. Aggression is fine but this is the wrong hand to do it with imo.

What do you hope to achieve with a 4bet?
- If your opponent 5bets, you"ll have to get it in I reckon, you"re 41% vs AAKK with your suit dominated, but you"ll probably average better than 45/55 (which is around break even) if he only ever has AAxx and no other holdings.
- Him folding is your nut outcome, but with the stack sizes I can"t see many villains 3bet-folding here.
- Most of the time he calls and you play your hand in a 100BB pot where you"re unlikely to improve and Villain probably thinks you have the hand you have. Auto 4bet if stacks are

AAroddersAA:

--- Quote from: dwh103 on April 20, 2012, 13:05:20 PM ---
What do you hope to achieve with a 4bet?
- If your opponent 5bets, you"ll have to get it in I reckon, you"re 41% vs AAKK with your suit dominated, but you"ll probably average better than 45/55 (which is around break even) if he only ever has AAxx and no other holdings.
- Him folding is your nut outcome, but with the stack sizes I can"t see many villains 3bet-folding here.
- Most of the time he calls and you play your hand in a 100BB pot where you"re unlikely to improve and Villain probably thinks you have the hand you have. Auto 4bet if stacks are

dwh103:

--- Quote from: AAroddersAA on April 20, 2012, 14:35:13 PM ---
Well with the 4-bet I get to play a bigger pot in position which is quite useful in PLO. I can see what you are saying though I swell the pot with a hand that is going to be difficult to play post flop and it is not at all unreasonable for him to put me on AA and can therefore put me to very tough decisions in the hand.

We are about 41% Vs AAKK double suited and the same Vs AAJT but against most suited aces we are about 45%. Reading this the 4-bet is looking bad now as it is effectively committing me to invest my entire stack (we have put in 9%). If we do just flat the three bet we give up the lead in the pot to our opponent and he is likely to c-bet most flops.

If we just call the three bet what do we do on a dry flop, just folding feels really weak?

--- End quote ---


The reasoning is of course fair and generally what you"re after - just not with this hand imo. Position > Initiative

Calling disguises your hand to a certain extent should you flop an Ace, but yes, most of the time you"ll be facing a c-bet of 15-30BBs or so whilst holding a marginal hand. Your only strength here is position so calling the inevitable c-bet is almost always going to be out of the question if you haven"t improved. Leaves you to raise or fold dependent on the board texture. Against an unknown opponent who hasn"t yet got out of line I"d lean towards caution and the low variance approach.

Against thinking players or nut peddlers you can get creative - raise low/middling coordinated boards etc, but there is absolutely no shame in folding if unimproved. I personally consider my EV at lower stakes to be largely down to superior hand selection and pre-flop decisions, making subsequent post-flop decisions easier - you will have better spots than this.

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