Poker Forum > Strategy
APAT League Hand - No.2
noble1:
--- Quote from: AAroddersAA on November 18, 2012, 09:47:47 AM ---
You can"t fold, on the flop though. Getting it all in is not that bad either and +EV against most opponents (not Vs Rob as I said earlier) calling the reraise and c/c c/c is a better line (unless he does something really strange like a big overshove on turn or river)
Most players have AQ, KQ more than a set in an APAT tournament. People love raising top pair on the flop (not saying its that great but this is what they do). Then seem to feel compelled to at least bet the turn, although in position they often just check the river so maybe when he bets the river his range is capped to a bluff or a monster.
Interesting hand.
--- End quote ---
i think Rob corrected that flop texture to Jack high Rodders...
going by the read Waz gave - good player ..... what assumptions logically would u make?
well for one if the situation is right a good player will play a strong hand fast, of course they will have plenty of air as well if the situation is RIGHT... so is the situation right here? [3bet pot , dry board texture]
if say Rob is more on the taggy side then what do decent tags call with in 3bet pots when effective stacks are deep?
i"d say pocket pairs would make up a large proportion of there 3bet calling range and AJ KJ QJ would be nearly non-existent for obvious reasons , for instance if they perceive Waz to be 3betting a strong value range, now add in a J8x rainbow flop what is there logic here for re-raising?
flip the good players style to a good LAG , would they consider this a good board texture versus a strong value range against someone who may over play there range to now start bloating the pot?
would either style choose in the main to float a street? what part of there ranges would they do this with?
hero oop with a possibly perceived strong 3bet value range who may likely over play it , what does a good player do?
i posted the bluff catching article because the line Rob used -
--- Quote ---You cbet the flop obviously and then I clicked it back. I think you should now be in bluff catching mode.
--- End quote ---
a better way of describing it is to take a pot control line on the flop + turn then bluff catch on the river... add in the reads Waz gave and the board texture, can anyone find a good counter argument to bluff catch the river after facing a re-raise on the flop and having to check call a turn bet of whatever sizing? if the pot control line was taken...
in fact although it seems nitty , with the given reads, the line Rob takes and the board texture i wouldn"t be averse to the idea of Waz check folding the turn :o
other things to ponder - when oop in a 3bet pot versus a good player with our perceived pre-flop hand strength 200bb+ deep on a one high card two low dry board texture is there any good reasons not to cbet 100% of our range?
was Waz"s pre-flop 3bet sizing ok?
why couldn"t he find the actual hand history ;D [lol , sorry Waz]
had Rob being playing other board textures like this in previous hands in this manner, and if so , against whom?
Waz1892:
For some reason hand history doesn"t work on my laptop in boss (DTD/Apat.co.uk)
Invaluable tips and help in this
AAroddersAA:
--- Quote from: noble1 on November 18, 2012, 13:58:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: AAroddersAA on November 18, 2012, 09:47:47 AM ---
You can"t fold, on the flop though. Getting it all in is not that bad either and +EV against most opponents (not Vs Rob as I said earlier) calling the reraise and c/c c/c is a better line (unless he does something really strange like a big overshove on turn or river)
Most players have AQ, KQ more than a set in an APAT tournament. People love raising top pair on the flop (not saying its that great but this is what they do). Then seem to feel compelled to at least bet the turn, although in position they often just check the river so maybe when he bets the river his range is capped to a bluff or a monster.
Interesting hand.
--- End quote ---
i think Rob corrected that flop texture to Jack high Rodders...
going by the read Waz gave - good player ..... what assumptions logically would u make?
--- End quote ---
Is this like a test *lol*
I did miss the fact it was a Jack high flop for various reasons. This actually makes quite a bit of difference.
I agree that AJ and KJ should not be in too many people range here. The reality is that they often are though but as we know our opponent is Rob it is logical to assume he does not have these very often.
Rob"s raise on the flop could be anything but is probably not a top pair type hand or a mid pair. He is certainly capable of trying to nick the pot here. Without an obvious draw he should be polarized to sets and bluffs really.
We can certainly check/call the turn at this stage I think, when Rob shoves the river I may fold as I would expect a check from a hand I beat there.
noble1:
nope not a test, just throwing a few thoughts out there , see if anyone wanted to contribute etc etc
i"ve been up all night so i"ll try to make this quick -
i"m surprised by how many responses would get 200bb+ all in in this spot tbh... good player - think 1 level above and it seems a straight forward hand imo with reads given... [all on whether or not Waz is the biggest 3betting aggro donk going of course lol ;) but i"m assuming he isn"t and is probably a tad on the tighter side , no more than 5or6% anyhows :)]
click it back , i did chortle a tad when i saw the HH , i was using this move back in 05 06 so to see its still working is amazing plus no one in the thread questioned it, so here a few thoughts on it Waz....
the min rr or the CIB use it to -
induces shoves when u have monsters versus fishy sorts..
to give the appearance to the villain we are bluffing or weak so that he can shove over and have FE when he really can"t..
it allows u to take control of the hand [player dependent]
u can use it in spots/board textures when villains range has no draws in it but rather made hands and air..
u can really fu#k with villains by CIB instantly or for pure amusement value time bank right down then CIB ;D
it can buy u free cards, especially when you don"t really want to commit your stack with a draw but don"t want to lose initiative because you don"t want to be bluffed off the hand..
its a great way to build pots early on versus fish without really scaring them off...
to raise for info, yeah yeah raising for info is BAD so everyone says BUT if raising for info gives u a piece of info that prevents you from making a huge -ev mistake later on in the hand by sacrificing a relatively small bit of ev up front, then raising for info cant be THAT bad IMHO :o [Waz , the 3bet CIB was an option u could of taken]
3bet clicking it back can stop certain villains from check raise bluffing u when you are cbetting if they can"t or very infrequently make a pure air 4 bet bluff...
against tough tricky players who are capable of a 4 bet bluff, then 5bet CIB :-* and call a shove cos they might think we"d never do this with a strong value hand but we still call with our strong ISH hands :) top pair 2nd kicker type of stuff etc...
the last two are for deeper stack situations but are used in mtts but at small buy in"s cash or mtts DO NOT USE....[unless u wanna have some fun ;)]
if anyone else can think of any other uses of the click it back move then please add on to the list, i"m off to bed :)
TheSnapper:
As a general strategy post tip, try to not post results prematurely, replies made after result is revealed are tainted (including this one ;))
Some general thoughts.
Assuming from the brief history prior to this hand that villain (no need for inverted comas ;D) has been active in late position. That being the case his range is really wide here and a 3b will fold out most of that range, do we want him to fold?
anyone like a flat pre?
So we 3b the frequent lp raiser and villain flats. We have an interesting dynamic now and a spot with some potential for either player to level themselves.
--- Quote from: noble1 ---
think 1 level above and it seems a straight forward hand imo with reads given...
--- End quote ---
Villain can think we are adjusting and 3b'ing light, I've often levelled myself by 4b bluffing in similar spots but the reality is, players don't adjust that often and they have it more often than not.
The flop.
We can cbet really small here imho, one third pot has potentially more value than two thirds pot. How can we get the most chips in versus hands we beat?
For the OP though I do feel the big lesson here is to adjust to how deep you are in this spot and particularly how you value your hand strength versus the size of pot you are prepared to commit to. In short, when we get 200 bb"s in versus a decent opponent, one pair is never good.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version