Poker Forum > Strategy
APAT League Hand - No.2
Waz1892:
--- Quote from: Swinebag22 on November 14, 2012, 23:54:19 PM ---
Hehe, I was the villain.
You cbet the flop obviously and then I clicked it back. I think you should now be in bluff catching mode.
Call flop reraise then check call turn and river.
You mentioned that you couldn"t get away 5 handed and I agree to some extent, but you should never have committed your stack there on the flop that early in he tourney with 1 pair. The flop was J hi iirc. An "accomplished" (ahem) player will not really stack off with too much that you beat and will probably fold most hands that you beat.
By calling the raise on the flop, you let hands like AJ, QQ and KK value bet the worse hand and other hands may bluff another street, thinking they can get you off AK or maybe AQ.
By 3 betting the flop, I put you on JJ-AA of which one (JJ) was less likely. This made my decision to shove easy as I knew I was getting paid off ( or coolered by JJ)
Well done on winning btw. I think bubbling was about all I deserved last night. I played far from "accomplished" last night, bluffed most of my stack off to Jo, then kept "getting there" to keep myself in it.
--- End quote ---
Hey Rob, glad you posted you views. I didn"t name you in case you didn"t want it. Methods of play etc, and I made sure the villain was put in " ", as your a nice guy really!
The main issue I think was that its clear with your post and others I don"t put in half as much thought into what, why, now what, when I"m involved in a hand. I saw aces, rainbow board and was counting the money already.
It"s clear with a little more care and nounce I could have folded it at least saved a bunch
deanp27:
Just open fold against that luckbox imo
AAroddersAA:
--- Quote from: Waz1892 on November 15, 2012, 07:36:54 AM ---
--- Quote from: Swinebag22 on November 14, 2012, 23:54:19 PM ---
Hehe, I was the villain.
You cbet the flop obviously and then I clicked it back. I think you should now be in bluff catching mode.
Call flop reraise then check call turn and river.
You mentioned that you couldn"t get away 5 handed and I agree to some extent, but you should never have committed your stack there on the flop that early in he tourney with 1 pair. The flop was J hi iirc. An "accomplished" (ahem) player will not really stack off with too much that you beat and will probably fold most hands that you beat.
By calling the raise on the flop, you let hands like AJ, QQ and KK value bet the worse hand and other hands may bluff another street, thinking they can get you off AK or maybe AQ.
By 3 betting the flop, I put you on JJ-AA of which one (JJ) was less likely. This made my decision to shove easy as I knew I was getting paid off ( or coolered by JJ)
Well done on winning btw. I think bubbling was about all I deserved last night. I played far from "accomplished" last night, bluffed most of my stack off to Jo, then kept "getting there" to keep myself in it.
--- End quote ---
Hey Rob, glad you posted you views. I didn"t name you in case you didn"t want it. Methods of play etc, and I made sure the villain was put in " ", as your a nice guy really!
The main issue I think was that its clear with your post and others I don"t put in half as much thought into what, why, now what, when I"m involved in a hand. I saw aces, rainbow board and was counting the money already.
It"s clear with a little more care and nounce I could have folded it at least saved a bunch
--- End quote ---
No, you really can"t.
Its not a case of could you have got away from this hand on this board. It"s a case of what is the most profitable line in getting in all the money.
noble1:
J8x rainbow board texture [not many draws] , 3bet pot , 3bet ranges and 3bet call ranges , re-raising on a fairly dry ish flop , what range is villain putting you on , 200bb + effective stacks , bluff catching a rr flop and calling bets on the turn and river? why? , what sizing do you call?..........etc etc :)
--- Quote ---Its not a case of could you have got away from this hand on this board. It"s a case of what is the most profitable line in getting in all the money.
--- End quote ---
hmmmm Rodders............
i like this -
--- Quote ---Logic: Is there logic present that he could use that would make him decide to bluff? And is that logic more compelling or evident than the logic not to bluff?
--- End quote ---
could u apply this thinking to Robs flop action in a 3bet pot...
some reading to get u pondering -
http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/the-bluff-catcher -
--- Quote ---Knowing when your hand is a bluff catcher is the first step to playing it more profitably.
Your hand can only truly be a bluff catcher on the river.
While your hand may technically be one on the turn, if you call you may still have to call another bet on the river.
--- End quote ---
http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/general/range-merging/
note his take on bluff catching..
http://suited-aces.com/how-to-catch-a-bluff-like-the-pros
Danny"s logic - i"ve quoted above
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-bluffing-1224829/
a yukky post on game theory to get your grey matter ticking over :) but at least it should get u thinking about balance or exploitive lines , at least it will give u some ideas on value to bluff ratio"s from a math perspective and whether or not u could apply it or add elements of it to your style of play...
if anyone reading this has problems with over pairs oop in spots like this or u have lost a few big pots to players of whatever type, then get searching through your tracker database [and if the sample is small then join forces with your mates results from his tracker] u are almost probably :) giving them [the villains ;)] too much credit for having a wider bluffing range than they actually have, or for being capable of value betting non-nut hands. [all on player types, buy in/stake level , board textures and tendencies u"ve noted etc etc]
no reads equals no bloody idea where u stand and if u happen to guess right , then u got lucky :) [and end up enforcing the hero call in your mind as being correct , then a vicious cycle begins :)]
AAroddersAA:
--- Quote from: noble1 on November 16, 2012, 14:23:45 PM ---
J8x rainbow board texture [not many draws] , 3bet pot , 3bet ranges and 3bet call ranges , re-raising on a fairly dry ish flop , what range is villain putting you on , 200bb + effective stacks , bluff catching a rr flop and calling bets on the turn and river? why? , what sizing do you call?..........etc etc :)
--- Quote ---Its not a case of could you have got away from this hand on this board. It"s a case of what is the most profitable line in getting in all the money.
--- End quote ---
hmmmm Rodders............
--- End quote ---
You can"t fold, on the flop though. Getting it all in is not that bad either and +EV against most opponents (not Vs Rob as I said earlier) calling the reraise and c/c c/c is a better line (unless he does something really strange like a big overshove on turn or river)
Most players have AQ, KQ more than a set in an APAT tournament. People love raising top pair on the flop (not saying its that great but this is what they do). Then seem to feel compelled to at least bet the turn, although in position they often just check the river so maybe when he bets the river his range is capped to a bluff or a monster.
Interesting hand.
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