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Flatting with Medium Strength Hands vs Loose Passives

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fatpants:
fold pre imo!  If you are going to flat pre, on that flop you have to re-raise, as soon as you dont and utg+1 calls behind and with the k on turn you are crushed most of the time!  You have no idea where you are or what your up against utg+1 has 99 or kqss imo!

VBlue:
utg+1 folded river.  I think folding pre is just way too nitty against this type of player who can be opening as wide as almost 40% of hands.  We also have the power of position so we can evaluate our opponents reaction to flop, turn, and river.  Players this loose-passive can easily stack off 2nd best hands, as illustrated when I did so previous hand with AK v KQ on K high board, and I raised pre that hand and I think he limp-called.

TheSnapper:

--- Quote from: VBlue on December 13, 2012, 09:21:12 AM ---
When in position and facing an opening raise from a loose-passive player, what types of hands are you looking to flat with as opposed to 3-betting? If the opener is 40% VPIP

--- End quote ---


The sample size is very small (83 hands) but that said pfr and vpip stats can represent as accurate quickly. In this instance you talk about villains vpip which is okay had villain limped, but villain came in for a raise and his pfr of 11% is the pertinent stat in this spot. Moreover, villain has raised over a limper so it"s likely to be a somewhat tighter range. You could refer to his positional stats for an exact pfr for each position, though it"s doubtful villain will be positionally aware it will be very clear when you look at his stats per position.

See image below for an example. (you may need to right click select view image )




What I like to do is have the more detailed stats set to appear as a pop up HUD. In the image above the centre dark hud is the standard visible hud and displays.....

Name of player_____  hands / sample size

VPIP______ PFR_____AGG Factor____3b____fold to 3b

The brighter pop up huds are displayed by hovering over a stat, hover the cursor on PFR for example and we see the pop up (bottom left of image) for his raise per position. These are simple to set up and well worth the effort.

If you wanted a hand setting something up I"d be happy to do a teamviewer session sometime.

Back to the hand.....

Lets assume a reduced raising range of ~ 9% 88+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo,  ad1 Jd is not in super shape but you have position versus a weak player, you gave great reasons to not 3b so flatting is spot on.

When villain leads for 3/4"s pot on the flop, do we disregard the "passive" label. Now we are faced with the problem area of playing AJ versus villains range, we need to be able to lose the minimum when we"re beaten, otherwise it very quickly becomes unprofitable to play AJ in these spots. Is a passive player betting 3/4"s pot into two players with any hand you beat?

Fatcatstu:
I like the re raise on the flop here, our hand is still voulnerabl and i want to give it some protection, if we are way ahead most of the time as we think, then getting rid of the other player in the pot with what could easily be 2 overs is surely preferential?

After just calling the flop, I honestly dont know what i would be doing on the turn. 320 just looks so weak here, that i think i am putting a raise in now, but i dont like it. Seems like we are putting ourself into a spot that we dont need to be in by taking such a passive line?

River i am folding as I litterally have no clue where i am in the hand and cant see myself wanting to throw any more chips after the ones that have already gone with me not knowing where i am.

fatpants:
ok so folding pre is to nitty for you but once you have hit the flop and they bet into you and you have a player behind what card do you want to see on the turn so you know you are ahead (apart from another j)?  If you flatting pre you need to ask questions on the flop!  Way played you have no idea where you are if you can bet for value of if one of the loose guys has a 9 or a k in there hand which is easy as they have played so loose!  All in all you have no idea where you are in the hand apart from you have position and are bleeding chips imo!

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