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APAT UK Team Championship 2014 - Discussion Thread
Paulie_D:
--- Quote from: AMRN on January 15, 2014, 12:03:26 PM ---
--- Quote from: IrishTom on January 15, 2014, 11:55:45 AM ---
Guys, we"ve stated the rules that will be in place for Stoke - and as Paulie says, this is correct because we have an "individual prize" as part of the event (from my perspective anyway) - collusion, chip dumping and soft play can/will affect this and therefore anyone breaking the rules will be punished as stated - to be determined by the Venue/APAT Host.
--- End quote ---
It"s actually not possible to identify the majority of times when this rule is broken..... if someone raises with AA, and gets a caller, then their team mate shoves, and they then fold their AA - how will anyone ever know that soft play has occurred? So, whilst having a rule is great, actually enforcing it is impossible.
--- End quote ---
This is why it"s acknowledges that "soft play" of that nature can (and probably will) happen but chip dumping and other team tactics such as team players joining together to raise players out of a pot (I think it"s called rip-sawing") are not allowed.
AMRN:
--- Quote from: Paulie_D on January 15, 2014, 12:08:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: AMRN on January 15, 2014, 12:03:26 PM ---
--- Quote from: IrishTom on January 15, 2014, 11:55:45 AM ---
Guys, we"ve stated the rules that will be in place for Stoke - and as Paulie says, this is correct because we have an "individual prize" as part of the event (from my perspective anyway) - collusion, chip dumping and soft play can/will affect this and therefore anyone breaking the rules will be punished as stated - to be determined by the Venue/APAT Host.
--- End quote ---
It"s actually not possible to identify the majority of times when this rule is broken..... if someone raises with AA, and gets a caller, then their team mate shoves, and they then fold their AA - how will anyone ever know that soft play has occurred? So, whilst having a rule is great, actually enforcing it is impossible.
--- End quote ---
This is why it"s acknowledges that "soft play" of that nature can (and probably will) happen but chip dumping and other team tactics such as team players joining together to raise players out of a pot (I think it"s called rip-sawing") are not allowed.
--- End quote ---
the point is though, that it often cannot be proven. Therefore, any player/team that is punished for breaking such a rule has a right to feel aggrieved given that it"s a cast iron certainty that the rule will have been broken elsewhere by other players during the tourney. If a rule cannot be 100% applied to all hands, and policed accordingly, it is not a good rule.
Paulie_D:
I agree.
It"s a good rule though applied to the wrong event type. :)
MintTrav:
--- Quote from: AMRN on January 15, 2014, 11:31:13 AM ---
I challenge APAT to support a Team Event where soft play, chip passing/dumping, etc are all allowable and expected, and where the team that performs best as a team is the winner.
--- End quote ---
The main voices advocating floors to be called and disqualifications, namely Paulie, Rodders and (to some extent) Stu, have all said that they like the idea of chip-passing in team events but are opposed to it at Stoke mainly just because it is against the rules of the event.
APAT can resolve this whole silly (and boring) debate that arises every time there is a team competition by just announcing that chip-passing/dumping is absolutely fine and expected; encouraged in fact. This has become a required skill in team events and some people have become very good at it. It is what will happen anyway, so APAT could avoid the hypocrisy that is currently required from players and organisers by saying that anything goes with regard to how people bet with their chips. There is nothing to stop other teams from countering team play with strategies of their own. This is what takes team events to a level not found in individual tournaments.
Here"s to a great event!
Des:
--- Quote from: MintTrav on January 15, 2014, 12:29:09 PM ---
--- Quote from: AMRN on January 15, 2014, 11:31:13 AM ---
I challenge APAT to support a Team Event where soft play, chip passing/dumping, etc are all allowable and expected, and where the team that performs best as a team is the winner.
--- End quote ---
The main voices advocating floors to be called and disqualifications, namely Paulie, Rodders and (to some extent) Stu, have all said that they like the idea of chip-passing in team events but are opposed to it at Stoke mainly just because it is against the rules of the event.
APAT can resolve this whole silly (and boring) debate that arises every time there is a team competition by just announcing that chip-passing/dumping is absolutely fine and expected; encouraged in fact. This has become a required skill in team events and some people have become very good at it. It is what will happen anyway, so APAT could avoid the hypocrisy that is currently required from players and organisers by saying that anything goes with regard to how people bet with their chips. There is nothing to stop other teams from countering team play with strategies of their own. This is what takes team events to a level not found in individual tournaments.
Here"s to a great event!
--- End quote ---
Some very good points made over the past few pages of this thread. I"m a fan of opening up the event in the way suggested, however I don"t think we should do that when there is an individual prize at stake. So that can be looked at for S8 and I"m sure we can take forward a very exciting concept.
In the interim, let"s all remember that this event has been running in this format for several years now, with lots of highly competitive players and to my knowledge, we"ve never had a single issue relating to abuse of the rules.
When we get down to the business end, if chip dumping appears to be taking place we can easily ask to see the folding player"s cards pre muck. With two or three tables left, that would be very easy to enforce. But we"ve not had to do it previously and if the event is played in the spirit that it has always been played in previously, then we won"t have to do it in Stoke either.
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