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smileriraq:
hmmmmm

without trying to hijack the thread if I had 10 10 and was reraised all in unless i had a prticuarly good read on the player or was pot committed I would fold , cos your either up against

1) a pp (JJ,QQ,KK,AA)
2) 2 picture cards meaning its a race and do you really want to risk your tournament life on a race (* this is dependant of the size of the blinds and the current stage of tournament)

3) poss but unlikely a lower pp

4) A very good bluff

1 & 2 are the most likely if if its no 4 then either that player has played tight and is making a move which u have to respect or hes loose and will have shown that standard of play on previous hands

nothing wrong with the shove with AK especially if hes trying to steal the blinds and I think that calling with 1010 in that position isnt a particulary good move unless youve got a read on the player

Departed:
That"s an interesting hand.

My take on it is that once Moorman has raised the UTG limper, he should call the all in as he is getting 2 to 1 on his money which is ok for a villain range of JJ+, AK
(ie TT vs JJ+,AK is about 2 to 1). However, if Moorman has a read that villain only limp shoves with JJ+ then he has to fold TT.

For Moorman to even raise in first place, he would have to think the villains range is at least JJ+,AK, as if villains range for UTG limp is only JJ+ then he should be folding TT every time.

If villains range is wider than JJ+,AK then raising with TT is a must as he needs to raise for value (as calling with TT would not be good).

Also, Moorman also knows what he is doing - isn"t he one of the most successful UK online tournament players?

---

From Damiancho"s point of view, I think it ok to limp shove with AK, as most of time he will pick up an ok pot versus a late position raiser (whose range is probably going to be fairly wide). This is provided that he also limps UTG with weak hands, otherwise a late raisers range is going to be quite tight.

In fact, as he has limped AK UTG I think once Moorman has raised, his only move is a shove as a call would leave himself clueless on the flop OOP, and a fold is just weak. Most of time a shove will pick up the pot, and when it doesn"t he only a big dog to KK,AA.

noble1:
The principle of equity in poker imo means you should raise with the best hand preflop. There are a number of reasons for raising preflop, such as; reducing the number of players in the pot, buying position, being the aggressor and so on. Equity however is still an important principle that makes it profitable to raise preflop. Not only is it because you may well be getting money in with the best hand and therefore betting for value, but because you are raising the stakes with your raise [GAP THEORY], and creating opportunities to get more money into the pot when you have good equity in the pot later in the hand.
This hand could of played out so differently if damiancho123 had raised pre-flop, the way he has played it with the limp shove is imo such a bad move as his raise has created a situation where he will only be called by a hand thats beating him.
Hmmm my brain hurts , intresting situation this one.

Back to my what skills do i think are required for mtt"s

3 Being Aggressive
You cant win without being aggressive,also aggressive betting gives you 2 ways to win,having the best hand or forcing folds.  [ I think a certain Brunsen and Sklansky touch on this, i guess they know what they are talking about ]

4 Knowing when to back down
It is not agood habit to get married to hands in mtt"s as it results in you losing chips  maybe even elimination.All good players have the guts and ability to lay down a big hand against constant betting pressure , there are a lot of players who do not take note of the warning signs and end up taking big hits. [i think all us have experience of this  :"(  ] Which is where i go back to my earlier skill of survival.

Other skills required.  [Also i think i"ll keep slipping in the odd hand history in this thread as it links up with the mtt skills required]

5 Getting chips
6 Knowing how to use a large chip stack

Departed and smileriraq or anyone , do you think the above HH could of been played out differently, if so , how would you guys approached it ?

Departed:

--- Quote from: noble1 on August 20, 2008, 13:51:07 PM ---
This hand could of played out so differently if damiancho123 had raised pre-flop, the way he has played it with the limp shove is imo such a bad move as his raise has created a situation where he will only be called by a hand thats beating him.
Hmmm my brain hurts , intresting situation this one.

--- End quote ---


I think this limp of AK under the gun would not be a great move in a cash game, for the reason you state (ie only called by hand that beats him) and the pot would be really small if you tried a limp raise.

However in the above tournament situation, if he"s not comfortable playing AK UTG against good opposition post flop, then perhaps you could argue that the limp shove is not such a bad play.

Admittedly he will nearly always only get called when he is behind, but as antes are in play and blinds are now at the medium level, then this play will let him take down the blinds, antes plus the raise that follows a large percentage of time [this assumes the late position raiser raises a fairly wide range, but calls a shove only with a much narrower range] without having to make any difficult post flop decisions.

Also remember that hands like JJ and QQ that might possibly be in the intial raisers calling range, AK is in ok shape against.

OK the play is probably not optimum, but it will avoid difficult decisions later, if someone in late position is likely to raise.


--- Quote from: noble1 on August 20, 2008, 13:51:07 PM ---
Departed and smileriraq or anyone , do you think the above HH could of been played out differently, if so , how would you guys approached it ?

--- End quote ---


TBH, I"m not completely sure what I would do in the same situation with AK UTG.
In a real-time game I do not have the time to go through a proper analysis of the situation.

I think it really depends on how the people still to act are playing - I don"t think I could come up with a definite plan, other than I would not fold it. I think most of the time I would probably put in a small raise. TT in late position would then probably still raise and then the decision would depend on what kind of hands he has been reraising in late position.
If he has generally been reraising only strong hands, I would probably fold as if an A or K comes down on flop he is probably not putting more money into pot (say he is reraising JJ or QQ) and I won"t have decent fold equity by shoving pre, but if he reraises with a fairly wide range, I"ll probably shove over the top as my hand is likely to be best and I don"t want to call from OOP.

noble1:
Departed thanks for the reply and yes i can i see your points on the limp shove but would you do it with AKo against a stack that can virtually cripple you,because as you said the button raise could be a fairly big range.So if we were to raise AK pre flop we would get far more info on the situation and therefore if moorman1 reraised we would be able to narrow his range a lot more,and re evaluate our next action.[also if he called we still get info as we can narrow down a calling/raise range]

My thoughts go along the lines that if i were to open limp utg or +1 then i"d do it with AA or KK if i were on a very aggressive table where raises were happening nearly every hand and if i shoved i"d been sure i was in a 80/20 + situation.
Imo this was a bad way to play AKo due to the fact he had a healthy chip stack and also a 2 and half bb bet pre flop would of given him far more info and also a better chance of taking down the blinds and antes.
The way i like to approach mtts is to get my chips in the pot as much as possible when i"m %70 favourite or more in the hand,be that pre or post flop.In damiancho123 case he"s not really getting his chips in all that great [considering chip stack sizes] its one mistake i see a lot in online mtts where over aggression leads to quick exits.

just a quick edit departed you got me thinking further on this situation [which is good , thank you]
It's simply not enough to realise when your hand is strong and that you need to put your chips in. The artistry comes in getting paid off on your good hands without unduly risking defeat [survival]. It's been said that if you want a call then you bet the highest amount you can get a call with. Conversely, if you want your opponent to fold then you should bet the smallest amount that achieves that objective. It may sound easy but it's a strategy that takes years to hone and may never be perfected,I"m still trying  ;D

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