Poker Forum > Strategy
Hand 111 from 'winning poker tourneys one hand at a time'
Paulie_D:
--- Quote from: Marty719 on February 25, 2010, 13:05:02 PM ---
I"m flatting the flop - dnt really see what min-raising achieves against this given player.
--- End quote ---
I don"t think anyone mentioned min-raising..he might have raised more on the flop but it"s not a min-raise.
--- Quote ---I"m folding to the 3-bet shove on the flop as I dnt see how we are ever in good shape here.
--- End quote ---
Me three.
Paulie_D:
Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?
If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?
deanp27:
--- Quote from: Paulie_D on February 25, 2010, 15:10:43 PM ---
Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?
If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?
--- End quote ---
3betting preflop(when hero is not a LAggy player) vs a tight player results in this:
Better hands call or jam and worse hands fold. Also opens up the possibility of a 4bet from AK which we are struggling to call. Would you get jacks in pre vs a tight player for c60bbs?
3betting jacks to "see where you are" is basically turning a big hand into a bluff. Not great imo
I much prefer to play the streets here.
Paulie_D:
--- Quote from: deanp27 on February 25, 2010, 15:14:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: Paulie_D on February 25, 2010, 15:10:43 PM ---
Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?
If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?
--- End quote ---
3betting preflop(when hero is not a LAggy player) vs a tight player results in this:
Better hands call or jam and worse hands fold. Also opens up the possibility of a 4bet from AK which we are struggling to call. Would you get jacks in pre vs a tight player for c60bbs?
3betting jacks to "see where you are" is basically turning a big hand into a bluff.
--- End quote ---
I get all this but my point is that it would have been cheaper to 3 bet than raise the flop and STILL not know where we are when re-popped.
Typical tighties would do exactly as you say. Call or Jam. In which case, we can re-evaluate on the flop with position.
If AK 4 bets (and I don"t think this tighty would do this) we fold our medium pair with no issues for a much smaller % of our stack than where we are now.
I agree, betting for information is usually not a good idea usually because we don"t know what the information means. In this instance, I think we would get the information we were looking for.
Hey...just asking. :) As it"s played so far...I fold.
shozboy1:
Here"s what actually happened and why Apestyles did what he did:
He called the flop - although the exact hand is irrelevant villain flipped pair of 10s with 10c in his hand.
Preflop decision: "At the moment, I"m paranoid about a big hand from a tight player. I could be up against anything from 66+ AQ+. he has 54 BBS, and he could 4bet a large part/all of his stack. When you get 54BBs of your stack in pfr early in a tourney with JJ vs a tight player, you"re usually behind. But, raise folding JJ here is terrible because it kills the value of our hand. It"d be better to raise him pfr with say 10-9o if I am going to fold to a 4bet. In situations where your opponent will shove or fold, re-raising with good hands not quite good enough to call all in with is bad because it turns your hand into any two random cards (simple when explained by a top notch player I guess)
As mentioned above by Paulie, Apestyles goes on to say "there"s also less value in raising with JJ here becuase it causes hands that I can extract value from to fold. He"s probably going to shove/flat AK+ and fold AJ/AQ. If he flats his monsters I will have to cbet the flop worse hands will fold (AK) and better ones checkraise me all in. Also when the flop comes an A or Khis range is way ahead of me, and I won"t be able to proceed past a cbet. Flat calling keeps the pot small against a strong range, disguises my hand, and has large implied odds when I hit a set. I call"
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