Poker Forum > Strategy
Critics: Anything I did wrong please?
Marty719:
I really do not have a flatting range from the SB here. If we were IP then I peel a lot lighter, but I cnt see any advantages to flatting s/c"s against this kind of player. I guess we can set-mine 22-77, but again I would rather 3b for the reasons mentioned above.
Our 3b range for value against hs opening range should prob be 1010+ AQo+. This has around 57% against villains range, so we can actually widen this profitably, but seems good as a default against this player type.
The rest of our 3b range is more speculative, and pretty undefined imo. Its filled with hands that we are just trying to pick up a small pot with.
TheSnapper:
--- Quote from: Marty719 on October 26, 2010, 11:36:42 AM ---
I really do not have a flatting range from the SB here. If we were IP then I peel a lot lighter, but I cnt see any advantages to flatting s/c"s against this kind of player. I guess we can set-mine 22-77, but again I would rather 3b for the reasons mentioned above.
Our 3b range for value against hs opening range should prob be 1010+ AQo+. This has around 57% against villains range, so we can actually widen this profitably, but seems good as a default against this player type.
The rest of our 3b range is more speculative, and pretty undefined imo. Its filled with hands that we are just trying to pick up a small pot with.
--- End quote ---
Really curious about the 3bet bluff option, If your range is undefined.....
How do you decide if or when you"re gonna be 3 bet bluffing and how do you keep tabs on your frequencies.
Game theorists suggest upto 1:1 value to bluff ratio in balanced 3 betting ranges, your example of 1010+ AQo+ for value is top 4.5% so assuming we don"t have a calling range ( thats a debate all of its own but you make some valid points) we should have a total 3bet range of top 9% = 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo
1010+ AQo+ for value
88,99,ATs,AJs,KQs,AJo as a bluff
usually you would also have a calling range, splitting those two set of ranges and using hands not quite good enough to call with as your bluff range, so total range would look like......
top 4.5% 3 bet for value = 1010+ AQo+
4.6%-9% Call = 88,99,ATs,AJs,KQs,AJo
(not suggesting we call with this range here and its likely a smaller "value:call:Bluff" ratio applies but doubt very much if its 0 for calling, these ranges would of course have to adjust based on effective stack size too.)
9.1%-13.5% 3 bet bluff = 77,A8s,A9s,K9s-KJs,QTs,JTs,ATo,KJo,KQo
kinboshi:
--- Quote from: TheSnapper on October 26, 2010, 11:24:15 AM ---
--- Quote from: Marty719 on October 26, 2010, 10:32:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: kinboshi on October 25, 2010, 17:47:22 PM ---
If he is raising from an EP and is uber-tight, what range do you put him on? What is the likelihood that he"ll 4-bet (based on this range we ascribe to him)? What will we do if he 4-bets? What percentage of the time does he need to fold to our 3-bet in order to make it a profitable play? If he flat calls, what does that say about his range? On a dry board (not the actual one in the OP) how often do you lead out? What do you do when he re-raises? What about if he flat calls?
--- End quote ---
Yea I def do not think 3b is optimal. I just think it is better than flatting. If he raises from EP, I"d say an uber tight player usually has 99+, AQs+. A10dd only has 33% against this range, and the fact that we are oop makes this an even easier fold. If it is from later position, it prob changes to 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs. Even against this we only have 36% and are oop so a fold is still good, but if we 3b, we can assume he 4b"s QQ+ AKo, flats 1010-JJ+AQs, and folds the rest. We win a decent % of the time against his flatting range by c/betting (our hand looks super strong 3b"n a rock oop).
Even if we widen his range, it really doesnt change an uber tight players 4b range, and with the betting lead, we do well against all the rest of his range. By flatting, I do not really see how we possibly do well against any of his range. The c/bet has pretty much become compulsory, and is pretty hard for us to defend against vs this type of player. We also do not feel comfortable when we hit the flop. If we were on the button, flatting becomes more viable, but oop our hand is a nightmare to play.
--- End quote ---
Nice post, Puts the case for 3 betting very well.
Have we established yet in this thread, what is raisers position? ??? ???
Assuming its a LP raise and his range is 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs....
What are reasonable ranges for calling and 3 betting?
--- End quote ---
I only call here if it"s an uber-tight player raising from EP. Otherwise it"s either a fold or a 3-bet bluff (raise to a fold and planning to let go of the hand post-flop unless it smacks me hard in the face).
I do the same with 56 in my hand.
Out of interest, what does everyone do if you hold TT against the uber-tight player raising from EP in this situation?
TheSnapper:
--- Quote from: kinboshi on October 26, 2010, 14:24:21 PM ---
Out of interest, what does everyone do if you hold TT against the uber-tight player raising from EP in this situation?
--- End quote ---
I call and stack him if I set up check fold otherwise.
Marty719:
"I only call here if it"s an uber-tight player raising from EP."
This quote is very interesting for me. Given that he is a tight player raising from ep and we are oop for the whole hand, what makes calling>folding?? Edit: reread whole thread...is the reason we might make a flush or straight and stack him?!?!?!?!?!
With 10"s I prob 3b fold against this player vs the ranges listed above. If we view him as super tight and think his 4b range is QQ+ AK. 10"S only have 36% against this range.
Only reason I don"t want to flat and set-mine is I do not want to c/f all non-10 boards. Then again, I would rather flat 10"s than A10 suited as the reverse implied odds are not as bad, and they are probably easier to play from the flop onwards. Think its still a 3b for most of the same reasons tho.
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