Author Topic: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion  (Read 107287 times)

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fandango

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #195 on: June 19, 2012, 11:54:26 AM »
Rob your a genius


Just in case no won has told you before ;D excellent post sir!!
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Fatcatstu

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #196 on: June 19, 2012, 13:20:08 PM »
About time someone posted something about this in English!!! Top post Rob!!!
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Des

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #197 on: June 19, 2012, 13:22:44 PM »

Excellent post Rob. Now can you do one for make-up please  ;D

Des/Tighty - Can I suggest we place this, or similar example in the sticky threads.


Have done Stu and thanks for the contribution Rob.
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KarmaDope

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #198 on: June 19, 2012, 18:17:24 PM »
Makeup in staking (aka Cake in some places)

Now, I"m not Rob - but I"ll briefly touch on this and hopefully if I"m wrong, someone more knowledgeable will be able to correct me.

The basic premise of makeup is where the stakee agrees to play a number of tournaments for the staker(s) on the premise that should the stakee win money, the cost of all tournaments will be repaid before the remainder of the profit is chopped. Makeup is the money used to enter stakee into tournaments.

Example:

Staker and stakee agree a deal where staker plays a schedule consisting of 10 tournaments totalling $100 every night for 6 months on a 50/50 deal with makeup. Stakee does not cash until day 6 where he wins $3000. Stakee sends $600 back to staker and they chop the remaining $2400 as profit. Staker still continues to send $100 daily from day 7.

What happens at the end of the deal if the stakee does not turn a profit?

There are a few options and they depend on what both staker and stakee wish to do. Staker can cancel the makeup and eat the cost. If the staker doesn"t want to continue backing the stakee, they can sell the makeup at a reduced price (to be agreed privately) to the stakee"s new backer. The stakee can buy himself out should he wish to go alone. There are other options, but these are the main.

Now I"ve only really seen makeup applied to long term agreements - and I was surprised to see it mentioned here. I don"t believe it"s the norm for makeup to be added to single stakes and I wouldn"t want it myself.

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duke3016

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #199 on: June 19, 2012, 18:39:38 PM »

Ger wants staking into the WSOP main event ($10K buyin)
Scouse decides he"s having that and ships Ger the $10K.


Steve, you have my number - waiting for the call  8)

Paulie_D

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #200 on: June 19, 2012, 19:03:46 PM »

Makeup in staking (aka Cake in some places)


Copied to definitions section.

Excellent summary.
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Chipaccrual

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #201 on: June 19, 2012, 19:10:57 PM »
Does anyone else think that staking with make up reads just like money lending. Replace make up with the word "debt" and it"s like something from the mob underworld.

You don"t owe me anymore, I sold your debt to one toothed Tony, and he won"t be so understanding  ;)

Geo

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #202 on: June 19, 2012, 19:14:59 PM »

Does anyone else think that staking with make up reads just like money lending. Replace make up with the word "debt" and it"s like something from the mob underworld.

You don"t owe me anymore, I sold your debt to one toothed Tony, and he won"t be so understanding  ;)


Absolutely agree with this.

My personal opinion is that make up/stakeback should be for long term staking deals not one off tourneys

Geo

Des

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #203 on: June 19, 2012, 19:35:27 PM »
Agreed. Make up agreements should be kept off this board unless by extreme exception.
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Swinebag

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #204 on: June 19, 2012, 19:40:27 PM »
Good stuff Adam

I can"t see makeup being applied too much in this forum"s staking section. Most make-up agreements are long term and done in private.

Though horses, that have continually failed, may choose to pay long term backers all their money back, when they finally land a big one.
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Swinebag

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #205 on: June 19, 2012, 20:11:19 PM »

Does anyone else think that staking with make up reads just like money lending. Replace make up with the word "debt" and it"s like something from the mob underworld.

You don"t owe me anymore, I sold your debt to one toothed Tony, and he won"t be so understanding  ;)


don"t agree with this.

I"ll do an example...(again names made up to protect the innocent)

e.g.1 Leigh is a solid internet player who makes enough to play any £1K live event going. He does run poo in those though and has failed to cash in the last 23. At the 24th attempt he makes a final and finishes 4th for 25K, making him a 1K winner overall. GG sir

e.g.2 Phil TC is a live pro who is nearly broke. He is lucky to get a long term staking arrangement (40/60 in backers favour with make-up) where he can play as many live £1K events that are going. He fails to cash in his first 23, meaning he is now 23K in make-up. However, it is 24th time lucky as he manages to  make a final and finishes 4th for 25K. He pays back the 24K that is owed and splits the 1K profit. He gets £400 for investing his time and skill and the backer who has invested 24K, walks off with £600.


The point of this is, that make-up arrangements mean that the profits are exactly the same as if you play on your own dime, with the exception that as a horse you don"t keep all your profit.

Of course there is a point where the backer may have had enough of a horses poor form. In this case the arrangement finishes with the backer taking a big hit and the horse is "debt" free.

So nothing like a debt IMO. Just a fair arrangement for both backer and horse. Just make sure you have a good relationship with the backer. These sort of staking deals can be the most stressful and are the ones that tend to lead to the big fallouts that we read about all the time.

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Chipaccrual

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #206 on: June 19, 2012, 20:21:46 PM »
It was this bit that made me comment.  More about the situation when a stakee doesn"t cash enough to clear the stake.  Not sure how that can"t be seen as a debt ?  The stakee owes the staker money, and would be expected to pay it back with any future winnings, dependant on either playing on their own dime, or finding more staking.




What happens at the end of the deal if the stakee does not turn a profit?

There are a few options and they depend on what both staker and stakee wish to do. Staker can cancel the makeup and eat the cost. If the staker doesn"t want to continue backing the stakee, they can sell the makeup at a reduced price (to be agreed privately) to the stakee"s new backer. The stakee can buy himself out should he wish to go alone. There are other options, but these are the main.


AAroddersAA

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #207 on: June 19, 2012, 20:50:14 PM »
The above is fine for Make up, surely stake back is pretty standard though in one off agreements? Especially if a premium is being charged.
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mal666

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #208 on: June 19, 2012, 21:08:20 PM »

The above is fine for Make up, surely stake back is pretty standard though in one off agreements? Especially if a premium is being charged.


If I were to offer a stake say,

1 stake to big 55 on Stars,  70/30 my favour after stakeback.

Then it"s perfectly fine and acceptable.

If i put up a request,

Selling 30% of big 55 @ 1.2.

It"s up to you to determine if you think this is a value punt at the price given, stakeback is not included.



mal666

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Re: APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion
« Reply #209 on: June 19, 2012, 21:10:08 PM »
You don"t have to markup btw, sell at spot if in doubt.