Author Topic: Saturday Donkey  (Read 570511 times)

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noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #105 on: March 19, 2011, 16:16:14 PM »

oh well end of the acca.catch you later in the online champs I guess.But the way things have gone today Id better stay down the pub.I had defoe to score the first goal as well today.Spurs had 24 shots on goal missed the lot......


meh, poor racing today, wait for some std weak races during the week imho :)

ul sir, spurs to finish 5th ;D

thacker

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #106 on: March 19, 2011, 18:39:15 PM »
glad it went down in race 3 race 4 went to plan bar bad luck .

thacker

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2011, 11:50:40 AM »
the wolves 520 monday is a cracker and the kind of race I like to bet in. You say you look at pace? Lets see what we both come up with.

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #108 on: March 20, 2011, 19:38:44 PM »

the wolves 520 monday is a cracker and the kind of race I like to bet in. You say you look at pace? Lets see what we both come up with.


i said i was experimenting with pace, but approaching it differently, it is i suppose called "Efficiency Handicapping"..
atm i am trying to record bits of data about how each horse runs a race and these build up into a record for each horse that can be compared to how well it performed... the data i get i also use to analyse on a course by race distance basis to develop a picture of what ways of running a race are most efficient and which also produce a good strike rate...
really geeky stuff that i"m just experimenting with, the way i approach horse racing is simple, hard study and watching plenty of races noting horses that appear to me to be better than what the bare form suggests.. when i analyse a race i make sure that i have watched the horses involved previous runs, i do this cos i try to find a angle that the betting market may of missed, this could be track bias, pace, the going was imo different to what was reported by the race analysts or just a simple thing like a certain trainer having a good record with certain horse types etc etc... in a nutshell i try to know as much as i can about the horses in the hope that i find something that the betting market may of missed....
the successful bettors, in my opinion, have the best intuition, and with experience somehow develop a gut feeling for when to take the risk and when not to :)  i"m not a fan of mathematical approaches to betting, can the horse win or not :) whats the price, 25/1 bloody hell, its a bet.. ;D

class 6 5f aw sprints at wolverhampton aren"t ideal to bet in imho, the horses are so poor and inconsistent, but i"ll have a look through and see if i can come up with anything...
http://www.racingpost.com/horses/result_home.sd?race_id=523984&r_date=2011-03-02&popup=yes
http://www.attheraces.com/VideoConsole/?va=WOL_2011_03_02_06_1700

Sally"s Swansong looks to have the beating of Steel City Boy imo, The Tatling looks like he needs 6f but would still find something to beat him[retire the poor old boy], Rio"s Girl will improve for her seasonal debut run but a 4lbs pull still would not convince me.. Straboe has never won off a mark of 64 which doesn"t bode well either.. I would not bet in this scott, but if pushed i"d favour Sally"s Swansong but at very small stakes :) the nag is 1/16, consistency does not seem to be her thing :)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 19:42:56 PM by noble1 »

thacker

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #109 on: March 20, 2011, 22:18:34 PM »
you really need to look at pace.IMO after 25 years of betting on horses - pace is everything.The weight"s mean very little bar going up in grade which is important.Going up in grade though is all about pace.Each horse is handicapped by thinking time out of the gates and pack instinct and in most cases horses cant be trained to go against what they do in the wild.Most tracks are ran at a different speeds and most horses can run fast times if given the opportunity.The opportunity isn"t there often and thats our job to find out when.

what I do is :-

make sure the pace suits the horse and is in a grade it can win at.
make sure the horse suits the track.
make sure the horse likes the going.
on turf time the first race to get a going figure.
can the jockey pull it off?
is the trainer doing ok ?

I use times of each track for stiffness and speed.Many horses cant run at 45hph at Goodwood for instance but run well at wolves going 33ph.Its all in the form.

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2011, 04:16:18 AM »

you really need to look at pace.IMO after 25 years of betting on horses - pace is everything.The weight"s mean very little bar going up in grade which is important.Going up in grade though is all about pace.Each horse is handicapped by thinking time out of the gates and pack instinct and in most cases horses cant be trained to go against what they do in the wild.Most tracks are ran at a different speeds and most horses can run fast times if given the opportunity.The opportunity isn"t there often and thats our job to find out when.

what I do is :-

make sure the pace suits the horse and is in a grade it can win at.
make sure the horse suits the track.
make sure the horse likes the going.
on turf time the first race to get a going figure.
can the jockey pull it off?
is the trainer doing ok ?

I use times of each track for stiffness and speed.Many horses cant run at 45hph at Goodwood for instance but run well at wolves going 33ph.Its all in the form.


yes speed is important, of course we want to back the fastest horse... Andrew Beyer is credited for pioneering the approach of speed to horse betting in the usa... the problem we have in the uk is that to accurately assess speed/pace is that you need sectional timing, trying to base figures on just the raw overall finishing time is flawed..
only basing pace/speed to a finish time does not take into account the time the horse ran on the outside of the track, which is the longest distance around, or was boxed in or was blocked by other horses during the first 2furlongs of the race but then overcame these problems and still came in fourth... what if a horse gains a easy lead but stronger horses behind get blocked by weaker horses.. u only get the answers by watching the races, relying on some lone race analyst who has to write up every race on the day is not the best approach.. the speed/pace figures start to go squee whiff don"t u think? add other factors such as wind direction not being available, unless of course u are there or can ring up a buddy at the track to let u know... and so on and so on....
the betting markets ever since Beyer made public his approach have factored this into there odds, likewise draw bias when punters became more aware of it, the bookies incorporated it into the odds....
as a horse race bettor we have to figure out the true odds of a horse and identity horses that are undervalued in the posted odds, so the only way to win money is to predict the outcome better than the odds makers [who use all the methods like speed ratings etc etc] and better than most of the betting public...
the variables can vary from a horse's past performance (wins vs. losses), to its pedigree, its class, its adjusted speed in previous races, its temperament, its breeder, its trainer, the track conditions, the weather and the mix of other horses in the field, all factored in by the odds compilers... the one edge we still have is that we can watch and re-watch any race we choose, looking out for the factors that have been missed, hmmm hard study, something which a lot of punters are not prepared to do....
the posted odds usually overestimate a horses chances of winning, which results in the payout odds being less than the true odds against a horse winning. by overestimating every horses chance of winning, the bookie underpays the bettor for a win, dont play into there hands by assessing races using methods they have factored in, simples....

thacker

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2011, 16:42:00 PM »
There was sectional timing in the uk but it was sold badly and soon died due to costs.Also the racing in this country is back in the dark ages. Sectional timing is also flawed though.What the clock doesn"t do is work out how much more energy a horse uses while being taken on.Low grade races are great for getting front runner beat.What ever happens to steel city boy today means nada as one race means nothing but will be interesting to see what you come up with Noble1 :)

noble1

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« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 18:23:14 PM by noble1 »

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #113 on: March 21, 2011, 18:45:07 PM »
just to add to the above, a link explaining how horses breath, there strides and blood flow etc   geeky ish but heyho :)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060501232456.htm

thacker

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2011, 19:00:22 PM »
Dont get me wrong. sectional timing does work I was one of the few turftrax subscribers.Im saying its not the be all and end all. A trip to Vegas 15 years ago is what got me on the track of pace.I was always a time form person but couldnt work out why fast timers were losing.Turns out it was gate speed and EARLY PACE.

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2011, 12:21:54 PM »
Here is a good read about one of the biggest punters ever till is death about 3 years ago - Alan Woods.. He teamed up with a guy called Bill Benter and together formed one of the biggest betting syndicates ever in Hong Kong, later on after splitting up the partnership Woods carried on and set up an even bigger betting operation..

http://www.tonywilson.com.au/writing/alanwoods.php

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #116 on: March 26, 2011, 12:59:20 PM »
MEYDAN (UAE) 1:15 - Al Quoz Sprint

J J The Jet Plane has to be taken on here, i am not convinced 5f is ideal for him from the races i"ve watched..
Happy Dubai and Quick Enough have both been backed to win...

gl today if you are punting...

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #117 on: March 26, 2011, 13:21:10 PM »
J J The Jet Plane won boooo :), hard to see what happened early on as it is rather misty there....

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #118 on: March 26, 2011, 13:48:30 PM »
backing a few at Meydan so avoid these as i have given them the kiss of death :)

MEYDAN (UAE) 1:50 - Godolphin Mile
Red Jazz
Hearts Of Fire

MEYDAN (UAE) 2:25 - UAE Derby
Khawlah

MEYDAN (UAE) 3:05 - Dubai Golden Shaheen
Rocket Man

MEYDAN (UAE) 3:45 - Dubai Duty Free
Strawberrydaiquiri

MEYDAN (UAE) 4:50 - Dubai Sheema Classic
Rulership

MEYDAN (UAE) 5:35 - Dubai World Cup
Gio Ponti
Twice Over

noble1

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Re: Saturday Donkey
« Reply #119 on: March 26, 2011, 14:12:16 PM »
NEWBURY 2:15
Magical Legend [ground and distance no problem,far to big of a price imo]