Poker Forum > National Online Cup
APAT National Online Cup - Enter A Team
HOLDorFOLD:
--- Quote from: Des on March 04, 2013, 18:25:38 PM ---
We generally favour giving the benefit of doubt to players where we can but felt that in this particular case, the chip dumping was so visible, that we couldn"t not take action.
As it transpires, the decision to disqualify two players did not impact the match result - but it will disadvantage one team for the next stage of the event as obviously they"ve lost the services of two of their six players.
Of course we also want to ensure that no players become banned by the network fraud team for this type of play. Ultimately we"re playing a real money game and APAT would have little say if such deliberate chip dumping was identified and the players subsequently banned from the network and all of our activity.
All in all, the decision wasn"t taken lightly. Removing players from an event is always a very difficult decision for APAT and I can count on the fingers of one hand the instances of us having to do it previously live or online.
I hope the players can understand our dilemma and support the decision, albeit we accept it will not be popular.
As always, we"re here to learn alongside you guys.
--- End quote ---
Can totally understand the dilemma you guys were put in last night ... and even if the decision isn"t a popular one we all know and appreciate there really wasn"t a choice in the matter once it was "reported".
Onwards and upwards.
Des:
Unfortunately it doesn"t work like that Gordon. Network rules and licensing laws do apply and there isn"t an operator out there who can work outside of those laws. An element of soft play has always been deemed ok in these games, but blatant chip dumping can"t be accepted in the same light, if only for the protection of the players involved. If players have gotten away with that previously then APAT have not done a good enough job in clarifying our concerns in that area.
Nothing personal with the two players who were picked up for this last night. Just bad timing by the sound of it and we regret that.
AMRN:
So long as both players were on the same team, I don"t see this as being a problem, and is an acceptable part of team poker. That said, some of us are a little more subtle about it, and it doesn"t usually attract such attention.
My problem with taking this action and the DQ, is that a precedent has now been set, and APAT will be open to people crying foul in the future, and should then really follow through with other DQs for chip dumping. If that happens, more than half the field will be absent in future team leagues - chip dumping (team survival) is an integral part of the team game.
In my opinion, if the rule is to be followed, then it has to followed vigorously in all circumstances..... we can"t say that it"s ok to breach the rule, so long as we do it subtly - it"s either a rule or it isn"t.
Example A - as posted by Leigh.
Example B - large stack open raises to 3x and then folds when his short stacked team mate shoves for 4.5x.
Example B is quite clearly chip dumping, and breaches the same rule as that which has been breached in Example A..... but this happens in every single game without any action being taken.
Tough call this one.
GiMac:
--- Quote from: Des on March 04, 2013, 18:34:26 PM ---
Unfortunately it doesn"t work like that Gordon. Network rules and licensing laws do apply and there isn"t an operator out there who can work outside of those laws. An element of soft play has always been deemed ok in these games, but blatant chip dumping can"t be accepted in the same light, if only for the protection of the players involved. If players have gotten away with that previously then APAT have not done a good enough job in clarifying our concerns in that area.
Nothing personal with the two players who were picked up for this last night. Just bad timing by the sound of it and we regret that.
--- End quote ---
I see what you are saying and understand the difficult situation you are in.
However, it should also be noted that this was an extreme case which was easy to detect. How do you propose it be dealt with going forward, because it does happen all the time in these events? Now as a team we have all our opponents tagged so we know who is on what team, so we can recognise & to be honest we expect that they will be soft playing each other or dumping and one of the skills of the team game is taking advantage of that knowledge and playing accordingly. But at the end of the day if you have 2 team mates sitting side by side and it folds to the short stack in the SB and he shoves the BB is going to fold to his team mate 100% of the time, the SB shortie may also limp, the BB big stack raise and then the SB shove and the BB fold. Now it isn"t as blatant as the example from last night but its still soft play/dumping. It will never get picked up by the network fraud team, but we will all know that it was team mates colluding/soft playing each other.
GiMac:
--- Quote from: AMRN on March 04, 2013, 18:40:07 PM ---
So long as both players were on the same team, I don"t see this as being a problem, and is an acceptable part of team poker. That said, some of us are a little more subtle about it, and it doesn"t usually attract such attention.
My problem with taking this action and the DQ, is that a precedent has now been set, and APAT will be open to people crying foul in the future, and should then really follow through with other DQs for chip dumping. If that happens, more than half the field will be absent in future team leagues - chip dumping (team survival) is an integral part of the team game.
In my opinion, if the rule is to be followed, then it has to followed vigorously in all circumstances..... we can"t say that it"s ok to breach the rule, so long as we do it subtly - it"s either a rule or it isn"t.
Example A - as posted by Leigh.
Example B - large stack open raises to 3x and then folds when his short stacked team mate shoves for 4.5x.
Example B is quite clearly chip dumping, and breaches the same rule as that which has been breached in Example A..... but this happens in every single game without any action being taken.
--- End quote ---
Exactly.
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