Poker Forum > Strategy
Live spot v Rodders from Coventry
Fatcatstu:
Quick question.
Why 4 bet him for half his stack? If he 5 bet shoves you cant like your AK that much but you have priced yourself in? Is a shove from you not a better option? Put the choice onto Brian?
Probably a stupid question, and this comes from someone who donated half my stack to Andy Cairns in a similar situation.
Zozzy:
Snapper I think the easiest way for me to respond to your questions is by quoting each one and trying to explain my way of thinking.
--- Quote from: TheSnapper on July 01, 2013, 21:42:38 PM ---
Would love to hear a more detailed description of the merits of this opportunity?
--- End quote ---
We are up against an opponent who is one of the favorites to win the tournament. His presence at the table is restricting how many orphan pots we pick up. Set mining in this situation even without the correct odds/implied odds is acceptable because busting this opponent brings a new meaning to implied.
--- Quote from: TheSnapper on July 01, 2013, 21:42:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: Zozzy ---
We don"t always need to have 7/1 odds anyway in mtts to set mine. (I think cash game play is different but that"s another subject).
--- End quote ---
This is totally incorrect.
Set mining is an implied odds equation, a basic poker fundamental. The bottom line is that we hit a set only once every ~9 times, so to breakeven, we need to win ~8 times the bet when we do hit our set!
--- End quote ---
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I completely disagree with the concept that maths is the be all and end all in multi-table tourneys.
We don"t differ much in our calculation % for hitting the set (1 in 8, 1 in 9 approx) but my argument is that this is set in stone for winning Cash Game strategy but in MTTs there is more to consider, the chance to bust a dangerous opponent or create a "don"t F--k with me image for instance.
Regarding your other points. I agree with you that there shouldn"t be a "one size fits all strategy". Each shoving spot should be judged on it"s own merits.
I have been giving my views in general terms.
In this specific hand we are discussing I don"t advocate reraising. Flatting pre and see a flop ftw.
Shoving here is giving the ep raiser a simple decision based on his own hand strength.
--- Quote from: TheSnapper on July 01, 2013, 21:42:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: Zozzy ---
On paper the 3bet pre is incorrect, but he fact that rodders is the opponent does play a part in the decision.
--- End quote ---
Not sure of your point here really, let"s assume that the decision we face is whether we 3b bluff , let"s also assume that 3b bluffing is not our default play versus an unknown utg open raise.
how does "the fact that rodders is the opponent" impact on us choosing an option other than our default decision?
--- End quote ---
I meant that because we have previous history with this opponent we can put him on a wider preflop stealing range even in early pos.
duke3016:
--- Quote from: George2Loose on July 01, 2013, 23:42:06 PM ---
--- Quote from: duke3016 on July 01, 2013, 23:40:00 PM ---
--- Quote from: George2Loose on July 01, 2013, 23:29:17 PM ---
Also just to tackle those saying let"s shove.
You"re making this a really easy decision for your opponent here as I assume you just 3 bet your strong value hands (AA-QQ, AK) so when you jam essentially you"re turning your hand face up of sorts (ie it"s prob AK or a medium pair)
--- End quote ---
It might be only me advocating a shove, but am I not reversing that thought and making my opponent think the same way when his tournament is on the line, or am I just being silly. No real need to answer that........
--- End quote ---
Hey Ger- what would you do with Aces here?
--- End quote ---
Funnily enough George the very same thing...
George2Loose:
You"d reshove 30 bigs with aces or just re raise? Would u not be worried about not getting value making a reshove that big?
Jon MW:
--- Quote from: George2Loose on July 02, 2013, 01:22:09 AM ---
You"d reshove 30 bigs with aces or just re raise? Would u not be worried about not getting value making a reshove that big?
--- End quote ---
I think Rodders" maths above looks "about right" and illustrates why I wouldn"t re-shove in this exact spot - but also why it isn"t a terrible idea as it only takes a tiny amount extra fold equity to make it profitable and a lot of people bottle it when they are making a decision for their tournament life. I would definitely re-shove in some very similar hands - and in terms of this exact question - definitely including premium starting hands.
It"s always a good idea to make your opponents make a mistake. If you have got something like a mid pair then the mistake can be to fold when they "should" call - if it"s a premium starting hand then the mistake is to call when they "should" fold. If they know you could be re-shoving with AA then it makes their decision harder (always a good thing) and if they don"t know then it makes it more likely they"ll make a mistake when you do it with a premium starting hand.
The potential missing value for the occasional hand isn"t likely to be as significant as the potential to win the big (>50bb) pot.
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