Poker Forum > Strategy
Folding Kings pre flop
kinboshi:
--- Quote from: Philippos13 on November 05, 2007, 12:46:23 PM ---
Well i did not take an actual position if you should call or fold...
--- End quote ---
You said you"d call.
--- Quote ---...but the cost of the tourny (£75 traveling etc or any amount really ) should never influence your decision ...the decision as i explained should be 100% poker related ...saying i ll fold cost ive been driving for 3 hours is totally the wrong approach
--- End quote ---
If you don"t care about the money, then ignore it. But the reason I pay £75 to play in a deep-stack, well-structured tournament is not to gamble my tournament life in the first level, calling all-in against what is probably AA.
--- Quote ---Queens is a totally different situtation...you can never compare KK and QQ and you do know that....Queens will go in the muck in a second...at best you are looking at 50-50%
--- End quote ---
The kings will be there just as quick for me.
--- Quote ---I do believe that it is essential to accumulate chips early on that will allow you to actual having a shot in winning...If it wrong to call with Kings on the first hand then when is it right to call? 10th hand? 30th? after 3 hours? (apat structure)
--- End quote ---
It"s probably correct to call all-in with KK when the chip stacks and blind levels dictate that their range is greater than AA. Also, with some knowledge of the player you have a much greater chance of being able to put him on an accurate range.
--- Quote --- What i do know, in walsall after 5 hours of play there were 170/200 still in with an average stack of 12 000! The structure suggests that you still have a lot of play after 5 hours and average chip stack...why would you call an all in then?
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Average stack is pretty meaningless even after 5 hours. I"m more interested in the size of my stack in relation to the blinds. If I have a stack that"s pretty much average size, but I only have 15BB, then I"m going to be calling all-in with my kings 99.99% of the time pre-flop. In fact my chips will be in the middle before his.
--- Quote ---In poker you have to take calculated risks and sadly most of the times the best you can get is roughly 70%-30% in favour preflop in an all in situation (apart from pair over pair)
--- End quote ---
The risk/reward isn"t right here. If you think you are good enough, why do you want to risk your tournament life so early, when you will have plenty of other opportunities to accumulate chips.
--- Quote ---Dont get me wrong...id much rather play a flop with KK througout the tourny not just in the first hand...but if someone moves all in you have to call ...If it is on the first hand and you dont want to risk it then dont...live to fight another day....
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First hand, I certainly won"t be calling all-in with KK. Absolutely, categorically, and definitely not.
--- Quote ---Once again first hand...no right or wrong decision ...you cannot blame someone for calling ....you cannot blame someone for folding
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Calling all-in with KK first hand is wrong in a deep-stack tournament. If someone did call and they were knocked out, then they"d have zero sympathy from me.
Like I said, in a short-stack tournament with a fast blind structure, the call would be easy.
However, if I am lucky enough to wake up first hand with AA in a future APAT National event, I might consider shoving pre-flop if there are lots of others who"d call with kings.
Philippos13:
I think our views arent that contradictory....i share your thoughts in all you say apart that you make kings sound like 2-2 and that you are probably are up against A A...that can never be certain
If i knew the others hand, in fact id fold to any Ace first hand not just the rockets...
i ll take my time to think about it...try to feel if he is afraid...if there is no strong tell that he is afraid the kings have be mucked ...yet it is def not an insta fold
Thank you for your thoughts
Swinebag:
This APAT academy is great!
I said near the start of this thread that I would struggle to lay KK down in this situation.
I feel I have "graduated" to the "easy fold" school of thought that most people are advocating, especially in a deep stack!
Thanks for improving my game.
I"ll still call if its the regionals though!
kinboshi:
--- Quote from: Philippos13 on November 05, 2007, 13:57:52 PM ---
I think our views arent that contradictory....i share your thoughts in all you say apart that you make kings sound like 2-2 and that you are probably are up against A A...that can never be certain
If i knew the others hand, in fact id fold to any Ace first hand not just the rockets...
--- End quote ---
If I knew they had anything other than AA, I"d probably call. I"m happy to take the punt when it"s a +EV move, and willing to be knocked out if they outdraw me.
--- Quote ---i ll take my time to think about it...try to feel if he is afraid...if there is no strong tell that he is afraid the kings have be mucked ...yet it is def not an insta fold
--- End quote ---
My reading skills are not that good. I might be more willing to trust my reads against someone I"ve played against before or who I"ve spent a decent amount of time at the table with, but against someone I"ve never played or seen before - I don"t think they"d help me here. If they look like they want a call is that what they want me to think? If they look like they want me to fold - the same. If they"re sweating buckets, their pulse is 200 bpm, they can"t hold my gaze - then they"re either scared of the call or hoping I won"t fold.
It"s interesting to see the different ways people think about hands and situations. There"s never one right or wrong way to play a hand, but in this situation it"s definitely a fold for me. Lots of better players might disagree.
Is it a style thing?
kinboshi:
By the way, I"ve asked quite a few players about what they"d do in this situation.
It"s a 50/50 split pretty much. That"s a mixture of what I would say are decent amateurs and people who play professionally.
Another case of there being no one right answer in poker...
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